Wall Street Journal published an article titled "Why Chinese mothers are superior" which basically outlines why Asian mothers (or just strict mothers) breed successful kids through methods that would be considered harsh to other parents' standards. The term "Chinese mothers" is used loosley to describe extremely strict mothers of all nationalities (pretty funny that the article starts out as "I'M NOT RACIST BUT...")
Context for the lazy: The author is Chinese and a professor at Yale Law School I believe her kids are only half Asian
A lot of people wonder how Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids. They wonder what these parents do to produce so many math whizzes and music prodigies, what it's like inside the family, and whether they could do it too. Well, I can tell them, because I've done it. Here are some things my daughters, Sophia and Louisa, were never allowed to do:
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Erin Patrice O'Brien for The Wall Street Journal Amy Chua with her daughters, Louisa and Sophia, at their home in New Haven, Conn.
• attend a sleepover
• have a playdate
• be in a school play
• complain about not being in a school play
• watch TV or play computer games
• choose their own extracurricular activities
• get any grade less than an A
• not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama
• play any instrument other than the piano or violin
• not play the piano or violin.
I'm using the term "Chinese mother" loosely. I know some Korean, Indian, Jamaican, Irish and Ghanaian parents who qualify too. Conversely, I know some mothers of Chinese heritage, almost always born in the West, who are not Chinese mothers, by choice or otherwise. I'm also using the term "Western parents" loosely. Western parents come in all varieties.
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Chua family From Ms. Chua's album: 'Mean me with Lulu in hotel room... with score taped to TV!'
All the same, even when Western parents think they're being strict, they usually don't come close to being Chinese mothers. For example, my Western friends who consider themselves strict make their children practice their instruments 30 minutes every day. An hour at most. For a Chinese mother, the first hour is the easy part. It's hours two and three that get tough.
Despite our squeamishness about cultural stereotypes, there are tons of studies out there showing marked and quantifiable differences between Chinese and Westerners when it comes to parenting. In one study of 50 Western American mothers and 48 Chinese immigrant mothers, almost 70% of the Western mothers said either that "stressing academic success is not good for children" or that "parents need to foster the idea that learning is fun." By contrast, roughly 0% of the Chinese mothers felt the same way. Instead, the vast majority of the Chinese mothers said that they believe their children can be "the best" students, that "academic achievement reflects successful parenting," and that if children did not excel at school then there was "a problem" and parents "were not doing their job." Other studies indicate that compared to Western parents, Chinese parents spend approximately 10 times as long every day drilling academic activities with their children. By contrast, Western kids are more likely to participate in sports teams.
When it comes to parenting, the Chinese seem to produce children who display academic excellence, musical mastery and professional success - or so the stereotype goes. WSJ's Christina Tsuei speaks to two moms raised by Chinese immigrants who share what it was like growing up and how they hope to raise their children.
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What Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you're good at it. To get good at anything you have to work, and children on their own never want to work, which is why it is crucial to override their preferences. This often requires fortitude on the part of the parents because the child will resist; things are always hardest at the beginning, which is where Western parents tend to give up. But if done properly, the Chinese strategy produces a virtuous circle. Tenacious practice, practice, practice is crucial for excellence; rote repetition is underrated in America. Once a child starts to excel at something—whether it's math, piano, pitching or ballet—he or she gets praise, admiration and satisfaction. This builds confidence and makes the once not-fun activity fun. This in turn makes it easier for the parent to get the child to work even more.
Chinese parents can get away with things that Western parents can't. Once when I was young—maybe more than once—when I was extremely disrespectful to my mother, my father angrily called me "garbage" in our native Hokkien dialect. It worked really well. I felt terrible and deeply ashamed of what I had done. But it didn't damage my self-esteem or anything like that. I knew exactly how highly he thought of me. I didn't actually think I was worthless or feel like a piece of garbage.
As an adult, I once did the same thing to Sophia, calling her garbage in English when she acted extremely disrespectfully toward me. When I mentioned that I had done this at a dinner party, I was immediately ostracized. One guest named Marcy got so upset she broke down in tears and had to leave early. My friend Susan, the host, tried to rehabilitate me with the remaining guests.
The fact is that Chinese parents can do things that would seem unimaginable—even legally actionable—to Westerners. Chinese mothers can say to their daughters, "Hey fatty—lose some weight." By contrast, Western parents have to tiptoe around the issue, talking in terms of "health" and never ever mentioning the f-word, and their kids still end up in therapy for eating disorders and negative self-image. (I also once heard a Western father toast his adult daughter by calling her "beautiful and incredibly competent." She later told me that made her feel like garbage.)
Chinese parents can order their kids to get straight As. Western parents can only ask their kids to try their best. Chinese parents can say, "You're lazy. All your classmates are getting ahead of you." By contrast, Western parents have to struggle with their own conflicted feelings about achievement, and try to persuade themselves that they're not disappointed about how their kids turned out.
I've thought long and hard about how Chinese parents can get away with what they do. I think there are three big differences between the Chinese and Western parental mind-sets.
Chua family Newborn Amy Chua in her mother's arms, a year after her parents arrived in the U.S.
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Amy Chua will answer readers' questions Thursday on Review's new blog, Ideas Market.
Write to: IdeasMarket@wsj.com.
First, I've noticed that Western parents are extremely anxious about their children's self-esteem. They worry about how their children will feel if they fail at something, and they constantly try to reassure their children about how good they are notwithstanding a mediocre performance on a test or at a recital. In other words, Western parents are concerned about their children's psyches. Chinese parents aren't. They assume strength, not fragility, and as a result they behave very differently.
For example, if a child comes home with an A-minus on a test, a Western parent will most likely praise the child. The Chinese mother will gasp in horror and ask what went wrong. If the child comes home with a B on the test, some Western parents will still praise the child. Other Western parents will sit their child down and express disapproval, but they will be careful not to make their child feel inadequate or insecure, and they will not call their child "stupid," "worthless" or "a disgrace." Privately, the Western parents may worry that their child does not test well or have aptitude in the subject or that there is something wrong with the curriculum and possibly the whole school. If the child's grades do not improve, they may eventually schedule a meeting with the school principal to challenge the way the subject is being taught or to call into question the teacher's credentials.
If a Chinese child gets a B—which would never happen—there would first be a screaming, hair-tearing explosion. The devastated Chinese mother would then get dozens, maybe hundreds of practice tests and work through them with her child for as long as it takes to get the grade up to an A.
Chinese parents demand perfect grades because they believe that their child can get them. If their child doesn't get them, the Chinese parent assumes it's because the child didn't work hard enough. That's why the solution to substandard performance is always to excoriate, punish and shame the child. The Chinese parent believes that their child will be strong enough to take the shaming and to improve from it. (And when Chinese kids do excel, there is plenty of ego-inflating parental praise lavished in the privacy of the home.)
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Chua family Sophia playing at Carnegie Hall in 2007.
Second, Chinese parents believe that their kids owe them everything. The reason for this is a little unclear, but it's probably a combination of Confucian filial piety and the fact that the parents have sacrificed and done so much for their children. (And it's true that Chinese mothers get in the trenches, putting in long grueling hours personally tutoring, training, interrogating and spying on their kids.) Anyway, the understanding is that Chinese children must spend their lives repaying their parents by obeying them and making them proud.
By contrast, I don't think most Westerners have the same view of children being permanently indebted to their parents. My husband, Jed, actually has the opposite view. "Children don't choose their parents," he once said to me. "They don't even choose to be born. It's parents who foist life on their kids, so it's the parents' responsibility to provide for them. Kids don't owe their parents anything. Their duty will be to their own kids." This strikes me as a terrible deal for the Western parent.
Third, Chinese parents believe that they know what is best for their children and therefore override all of their children's own desires and preferences. That's why Chinese daughters can't have boyfriends in high school and why Chinese kids can't go to sleepaway camp. It's also why no Chinese kid would ever dare say to their mother, "I got a part in the school play! I'm Villager Number Six. I'll have to stay after school for rehearsal every day from 3:00 to 7:00, and I'll also need a ride on weekends." God help any Chinese kid who tried that one.
Don't get me wrong: It's not that Chinese parents don't care about their children. Just the opposite. They would give up anything for their children. It's just an entirely different parenting model.
Here's a story in favor of coercion, Chinese-style. Lulu was about 7, still playing two instruments, and working on a piano piece called "The Little White Donkey" by the French composer Jacques Ibert. The piece is really cute—you can just imagine a little donkey ambling along a country road with its master—but it's also incredibly difficult for young players because the two hands have to keep schizophrenically different rhythms.
Lulu couldn't do it. We worked on it nonstop for a week, drilling each of her hands separately, over and over. But whenever we tried putting the hands together, one always morphed into the other, and everything fell apart. Finally, the day before her lesson, Lulu announced in exasperation that she was giving up and stomped off.
"Get back to the piano now," I ordered.
"You can't make me."
"Oh yes, I can."
Back at the piano, Lulu made me pay. She punched, thrashed and kicked. She grabbed the music score and tore it to shreds. I taped the score back together and encased it in a plastic shield so that it could never be destroyed again. Then I hauled Lulu's dollhouse to the car and told her I'd donate it to the Salvation Army piece by piece if she didn't have "The Little White Donkey" perfect by the next day. When Lulu said, "I thought you were going to the Salvation Army, why are you still here?" I threatened her with no lunch, no dinner, no Christmas or Hanukkah presents, no birthday parties for two, three, four years. When she still kept playing it wrong, I told her she was purposely working herself into a frenzy because she was secretly afraid she couldn't do it. I told her to stop being lazy, cowardly, self-indulgent and pathetic.
Jed took me aside. He told me to stop insulting Lulu—which I wasn't even doing, I was just motivating her—and that he didn't think threatening Lulu was helpful. Also, he said, maybe Lulu really just couldn't do the technique—perhaps she didn't have the coordination yet—had I considered that possibility?
"You just don't believe in her," I accused.
"That's ridiculous," Jed said scornfully. "Of course I do."
"Sophia could play the piece when she was this age."
"But Lulu and Sophia are different people," Jed pointed out.
"Oh no, not this," I said, rolling my eyes. "Everyone is special in their special own way," I mimicked sarcastically. "Even losers are special in their own special way. Well don't worry, you don't have to lift a finger. I'm willing to put in as long as it takes, and I'm happy to be the one hated. And you can be the one they adore because you make them pancakes and take them to Yankees games."
I rolled up my sleeves and went back to Lulu. I used every weapon and tactic I could think of. We worked right through dinner into the night, and I wouldn't let Lulu get up, not for water, not even to go to the bathroom. The house became a war zone, and I lost my voice yelling, but still there seemed to be only negative progress, and even I began to have doubts.
Then, out of the blue, Lulu did it. Her hands suddenly came together—her right and left hands each doing their own imperturbable thing—just like that.
Read More
In China, Not All Practice Tough Love The Juggle: Are U.S. Parents Too Soft? Lulu realized it the same time I did. I held my breath. She tried it tentatively again. Then she played it more confidently and faster, and still the rhythm held. A moment later, she was beaming.
"Mommy, look—it's easy!" After that, she wanted to play the piece over and over and wouldn't leave the piano. That night, she came to sleep in my bed, and we snuggled and hugged, cracking each other up. When she performed "The Little White Donkey" at a recital a few weeks later, parents came up to me and said, "What a perfect piece for Lulu—it's so spunky and so her."
Even Jed gave me credit for that one. Western parents worry a lot about their children's self-esteem. But as a parent, one of the worst things you can do for your child's self-esteem is to let them give up. On the flip side, there's nothing better for building confidence than learning you can do something you thought you couldn't.
There are all these new books out there portraying Asian mothers as scheming, callous, overdriven people indifferent to their kids' true interests. For their part, many Chinese secretly believe that they care more about their children and are willing to sacrifice much more for them than Westerners, who seem perfectly content to let their children turn out badly. I think it's a misunderstanding on both sides. All decent parents want to do what's best for their children. The Chinese just have a totally different idea of how to do that.
Western parents try to respect their children's individuality, encouraging them to pursue their true passions, supporting their choices, and providing positive reinforcement and a nurturing environment. By contrast, the Chinese believe that the best way to protect their children is by preparing them for the future, letting them see what they're capable of, and arming them with skills, work habits and inner confidence that no one can ever take away.
EDIT: Here is the wiki page on the author: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Chua According to wikipedia, there has a bit of negative feedback to the article so its not universally accepted by the Asian community.
I'm embarassed to be Chinese right now. I just skimmed the article and it's a terrible perspective on raising children. So many Asian parents always cling to anecdotal evidence. It's annoying.
honestly i dont care how successful it makes them. thats on par with slavery.. its just too bad the kids wont know any better because thats how they're raised.
edit: once those kids are out of their parents grasp, they go harder into drugs/alcohol/whatever they werent allowed to do than anyone. Explains why 70+% of people in clubs here in SoCal are asian lol.
With a title as racist as that I was expecting this to be some college journalist editorial or something, not a Wall Street Journal article. What a joke.
As someone who is Chinese, I can tell you that while Chinese parents might certainly produce children that are deemed more "successful" by society's standards, it's still not worth it. The amount of neuroses caused by Chinese "parenting" is staggering and almost anyone who was raised by Asian parents can tell you all kinds of horror stories.
Chinese parenting isn't parenting, it's grooming of the child into a human trophy that can be displayed for the good of the family. Chinese parents rob their children of their childhoods and harshly cultivate them (sometimes physically if necessary) with negative reinforcement in pursuit of vicarious success.
My parents are Chinese and they never pressured me with anything. I turned out a lot more creative than the academic Chinese people in my class. There really is only a few key lessons you need to drill into a kid's head and he should be set.
There are aspects of being a well-rounded person that such an upbringing does not give you, unfortunately.
In the UK, I have notived the same kind of parenting from many of my friends who were Indian or Pakistani or British Asian - I guess the mentality is the same. If their child isn't a financially successful person they are deemed to have failed, whereas I think a much healthier perspective is that if your child is unhappy the parent has failed. Obviously doing a job with prestige and a high wage is an important goal, but the method of getting there taken by such mothers is often counter-productive to the happiness of the children and their general life experience.
A lot of this is just garbage. There's pretty much no substantial evidence provided to support her position that "chinese parents" raise more successful children.
Well it is quite exaggerated but I think the article captures the essential differences between Asian and Western parents quite well.
e.g.
Higher expectations (A instead of B, etc.) Frank talk Filial piety
What Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you're good at it. To get good at anything you have to work, and children on their own never want to work, which is why it is crucial to override their preferences. This often requires fortitude on the part of the parents because the child will resist; things are always hardest at the beginning, which is where Western parents tend to give up. But if done properly, the Chinese strategy produces a virtuous circle. Tenacious practice, practice, practice is crucial for excellence; rote repetition is underrated in America. Once a child starts to excel at something—whether it's math, piano, pitching or ballet—he or she gets praise, admiration and satisfaction. This builds confidence and makes the once not-fun activity fun. This in turn makes it easier for the parent to get the child to work even more.
This article to me is basically borderline racist. It's extremely surprising that a Yale professor would publish something that appears pretty narrow minded. The article's focus isn't even so much on different parenting methods, but basically a straight up "why my kids are better than yours" shoutout.
I'm Chinese and my parents could be described as typical Asian parents, but in the end its just a huge cultural difference. I would have much rather have had the article focus on the the cultural differences rather than have the almost arrogant tone throughout. For a Yale professor, I thought her arguments would consist of much more than if you make your kids work constantly they'll be good at something and thats why Asians are supreme. Maybe she's just an elaborate genius troll?
What's even worse is that she uses the argument "Ok I know other ethnicities that do this too so I'm not racist but..." That's no different than making a black joke and saying "It's ok I know a friend who's black."
In the end, you can't argue with the results but the whole thing plays on stereotypes.
Funny to read this. Actually, we can see that effects of this type of parenting in Germany, too. In the PISA ranking, eastern parts Germany generally scores better than the others, mainly because they have a comparably large percentage of foreigners from asian countries and their children usually perform very well at school.
On January 09 2011 08:49 resilve wrote: There are aspects of being a well-rounded person that such an upbringing does not give you, unfortunately.
In the UK, I have notived the same kind of parenting from many of my friends who were Indian or Pakistani or British Asian - I guess the mentality is the same. If their child isn't a financially successful person they are deemed to have failed, whereas I think a much healthier perspective is that if your child is unhappy the parent has failed. Obviously doing a job with prestige and a high wage is an important goal, but the method of getting there taken by such mothers is often counter-productive to the happiness of the children and their general life experience.
Too bad contrary to popular belief, money does lead to happiness, as long as you're not a retard and know how to use it.
Oh yeah, i am currently writing a part of ma MA thesis, on gifted children in education.
As i skimmed the articles about gifted adolescent with the highest suicide rates, perfectionsts were on the top. All the signs that lead to a child putting a gun to her/his head were named in her "methods".
I also beilive in discipline and hard work, but what she did is torment a child.
On January 09 2011 08:37 maka.albarn wrote: The kids might be child prodegies but by the time they reach college they drop out or fail misarably because they don't have their mommy
Hahaha. Story of my life. Btw my Chinese mother's spelling lessons tell me that the word you're looking for is "prodigy."
This article speaks the truth-the better parenting model is the Chinese, althou I wouldn't say it is exclusively Asian. The ppl who are bashing on this article are just retards/failures at live or failures as parents. edit: or fat disgusting pigs justifying themselves with shit as big bones or I am handsome/beautiful the way I am.Also they probably are ignorant and arrogant deuches who only speak their mother tongue.
On January 09 2011 08:53 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote: ahaha in indian and my mom did this with me till i hit high school, then i did it myself
then i got starcraft 2 and found out teamliquid and who day9 was and my gpa went wayyyy down =(
Same, except I'm actually Chinese
I didn't really think the article was racist. I saw the article as more an opinion piece focusing on showing the perspective of asian upbringing, mostly directed at westerners. But I do agree alot more with the asian upbringing than I did a few years back. I know if my parents hadn't been tough on me then I wouldn't be anywhere's close to where I was today. For a while in high school my parents did let off on the discipline for a while, and I got way too involved in video games, which crushed my gpa and has prevented me from entering some of the colleges I wanted to get into. I guess I'm just thankful that my parents instilled a sense of discipline and gave me the skills I need to succeed. Its definitely not the only way to raise kids, but it certainly works well imo.
On January 09 2011 09:00 Hawkins wrote: This article speaks the truth-the better parenting model is the Chinese, althou I wouldn't say it is exclusively Asian. The ppl who are bashing on this article are just retards/failures at live or failures as parents.
"failures at live"... "althou"? Are you sure your parents were Chinese bro?
Woah, the story about the piano lesson near the end is freaky as hell. I kinda get what she is getting at, but it really makes me feel bad for the kid. Might be wrong to do that, I'm a notorious underachiever .
There's very little wrong about basically forcing your children to get an A in his or her school subjects, especially if you live in North America where all you need to pass is a body temperature in the 90s.
What's wrong is when you actively restrict your child from exploring their own potential, prevent them from having fun, and torment them in pursuit of skills which aren't directly applicable to much more than showing off (piano).
"I registered an account just to post on this article,I grew up in a home like this and I got straight A's, won trophies.
I have also been diagnosed with clinical depression, I have an incredibly low self esteem, and I also have an incredible loathing of my parents. In fact, I haven't had a conversation with any more depth than "how are you?" in half a decade. The emotional (and physical) abuse and the persisting psychological damage is not worth a fancy degree. This woman should have her children taken away from her and she should be sterilized. If she reads this comment I hope she knows that she is an incredibly malicious tyrant and I look forward to the day when her children abandon her. "
Fairly sick to my stomach right now. She actually embedded the "Sophia at Carnegie Hall" video to try to justify literally forcing your child to endlessly slave at something...
On January 09 2011 09:00 Hawkins wrote: This article speaks the truth-the better parenting model is the Chinese, althou I wouldn't say it is exclusively Asian. The ppl who are bashing on this article are just retards/failures at live or failures as parents.
"failures at live"... "althou"? Are you sure your parents were Chinese bro?
This is the Internet-the place where raping languages is accepted. Just take a look at Blizz Eu edition of WoW. Honor instead of honour etc. I can say althou instead of although just as I can say sup, hackzor or m8 and of course live instead of live or visa versa. I am not chinese or asian, but that tdoesn't mean that I shouldn't see what is right. And I have a half broken keyboard.
This Article is a joke. Do you think an Asian parent would have fostered Mark Zucklebergs odd interests in computers, before the dotcom boom of the 2000s? That an asian parent would have allowed Bill Gates to drop out of College? No they wouldn't have, and now there children call these men boss.
Chinese people looooooove anecdotal evidence. They LOVE to tell stories. The trick is to basically ask for citations. I ask for citations to anecdotes all the time, statistical evidence. It's really hard to make your point against someone who keeps asking for statistics and citations when you try to plow them with anecdotes, and then looks smug and basically shrugs their shoulders in an "I don't really care what you have to say" way when they ask you for citations.
Anyhow all my mom's "parenting" did for me... was not much. I didn't learn french, I cheated on tests, I got out as fast as I could. I stopped playing the piano, I didn't do homework and I lied all the time.
But I do see where they are comming from. If I wasn't inherently very smart anyways (and liked thinking and learning) I would have ended up as a mediocre person. Asian parents are often trying to push medicore people into being exceptional - the cracks and leaks start to show when they are asked to innovate, come up with new ideas, and work creatively (as it has shown in many of my classmates in university).
Self-esteem is also exceptionally important to a society. Compare the cultures of entreprenuralism in Europe and North america. In the US if you start a buisness and fail, that's a notch in your hat. It's not about how many times or how hard you fail, it's about how well you can get back up. And people respect that, and this sort of culture is what makes buisness so succesful in North America. In Europe, going bankrupt is like a death knell.
When people try to push themselves hard and make themselves the best I laugh. If you want to get ahead in life, don't try to make yourself the best. Unless you are a true genius (in which case you'll succeed regardless), 1 person cannot produce as much as 2 people or 5 people of medicore quality can. But a person who can harness the strengths of a group of people makes themselves exponentially more valuable. If you want your kid to be successful, you should be drilling them in how to manipulate people, not into being a tool for someone else to use.
On January 09 2011 08:49 resilve wrote: There are aspects of being a well-rounded person that such an upbringing does not give you, unfortunately.
In the UK, I have notived the same kind of parenting from many of my friends who were Indian or Pakistani or British Asian - I guess the mentality is the same. If their child isn't a financially successful person they are deemed to have failed, whereas I think a much healthier perspective is that if your child is unhappy the parent has failed. Obviously doing a job with prestige and a high wage is an important goal, but the method of getting there taken by such mothers is often counter-productive to the happiness of the children and their general life experience.
Too bad contrary to popular belief, money does lead to happiness, as long as you're not a retard and know how to use it.
I am not advocating a hippy style "if you got love you dont need no possessions" mentality - only that there is more to growing up than your grades.
Grades are still vitally important.
However when I did badly in a test at school I had the individual thought process and drive to change it, not a forced beating or guilt-trip from my parents. The kids I know with this kind of childhood basically lived a fun-free life.
I even knew one 7th Day Adventist family who wouldnt let their kid go to any social gatherings, let alone a party or play out after school - I don't care if he is earning a 7 figure salary after university, that is no humane way to raise a child or create a balanced person.
I prefer to just label the whole "Asian parent" premise farcical. We already know there are bossy parents in every single race, but, while politically incorrect, it is just true that there are MORE bossy Asian (read Chinese in the article) parents. It's just a cultural difference.
My parents are Asian (not Chinese), but they let off on the discipline since middle school and I've been getting straight A's in all my classes ever since. Sure, the kids who are driven by there parents may succeed when their parents are watching and judging them, but nothing beats being motivated by yourself. I don't see anything really wrong with parents bossing their children around if their children are content with being mediocre, but I think that the environment a child grows up in (I was surrounded by other kids who wanted to be straight A music prodigy doctors) is more crucial than how hardass the parents are.
On January 09 2011 09:00 Hawkins wrote: This article speaks the truth-the better parenting model is the Chinese, althou I wouldn't say it is exclusively Asian. The ppl who are bashing on this article are just retards/failures at live or failures as parents. edit: or fat disgusting pigs justifying themselves with shit as big bones or I am handsome/beautiful the way I am.Also they probably are ignorant and arrogant deuches who only speak their mother tongue.
I wish we could PM moderators and link them to people like you.
2 posts in and they're both terrible. I'd put money on you being a recently banned user.
You said that the Chinese parenting model is the best, but not exclusively Asian. Last I checked, China was exclusively Asian. You also misspelled "although".
You spelled "people" in internet shorthand, a sin both condemned specifically by Team Liquid and an indicator of unintelligence.
You said "live" instead of "life".
You later edited in completely unnecessary insults and assumptions aimed at people who disagree with you. You also misspelled "douches", a word that in and of itself is unintelligent to use.
Your parents must have raised you well.
Those people that you're insulting so cleverly happen to think that social interaction and freedom is important in a child's emotional and social development, something that has been shown time and time again to be true. Is every child going to grow up as an accountant or an engineer? No, most of them will be apathetic and work shitty jobs at grocery stores. However, intelligent people with stern, positive reinforcement and pressure will be just as successful as a child chained to his bed with extra homework.
I don't like how the article seems to equate success as purely being academic success. There are many different forms of success. Also it seems to rely very strong on anecdotal evidence which is pretty much useless . Personally i think there should be more focus on the needs of the individual child and not some pre-set regimen for how their entire life should go without taking into account the individual personality characteristics.
I recall that in my early years, my parents tried to help me but i really wasn't interested in their help and preferred to do and learn things by myself. This has continued on throughout my academic life. Whereas my sisters liked to ask for help and have things explained to them in some aspects of their homework etc. Neither method is 'wrong' its just different.
I can't stand the idea that there's one 'right' way to raise a kid, and everything else is different. Whilst i'm not asian myself i had some friends that were. Some of their parents weren't as strict as the stereotype. However if you want to use anecdotal evidence then one of my friends who was often studying up to 5 hours a night performed terribly on a constant basis and was just scraping a pass. I barely studied in comparison and did basically no homework (if i did half an hour study/work i considered that a big sacrifice) but performed better than him all the time. He really just wasn't suited to academics.
I don't like the factory production line type style of parenting. I think a childhood should be fun and that's what i remember from mine. I wouldn't change a thing. Yes i could have achieved much better marks if i studied harder, but i had enough to make it into my course at uni comfortably, if i had gotten higher it would not have assisted me at all, so in my way of thinking that extra work would have been a waste. Also i can't speak for other countries, but people in Australia can be very successful without obtaining University Degrees. I would encourage anyone to do what THEY are good at, because ultimately doing what you're good at and what you like is what will lead to a happy life and if that's not what you're aiming for then you're doing it wrong.
On January 09 2011 09:00 Hawkins wrote: This article speaks the truth-the better parenting model is the Chinese, althou I wouldn't say it is exclusively Asian. The ppl who are bashing on this article are just retards/failures at live or failures as parents.
"failures at live"... "althou"? Are you sure your parents were Chinese bro?
This is the Internet-the place where raping languages is accepted. Just take a look at Blizz Eu edition of WoW. Honor instead of honour etc. I can say althou instead of although just as I can say sup, hackzor or m8 and of course live instead of live or visa versa. I am not chinese or asian, but that tdoesn't mean that I shouldn't see what is right. And I have a half broken keyboard.
In american-english, you spell honor without the u. Sorry to break it to you.
But anywho, i agree with pretty much every poster here. I was afraid to read the article when i saw in the WSJ, but it pretty much shows how NOT to parent to me - while discipline and obedience is important, it shouldn't drive your parenting skills to the point of depression to the kids :/.
This is only valid if you value financial success over happiness and mental stability. Personally being the sort of guy I am I would have cut her throat in her sleep were I her son.
I am asian, my parents dont really pressure me into do anything, they just give me a lecture, you fail grades--> you fail school --> you go terrible college ---> you get terrible job----> have terrible life
it really wants to make me do well, you can be popular now in school but end up being a dumb ass and no1 liking you in the future
No comment. Being raised by Asian parents, I have much to say regarding this, but it'd take too long and I don't particularly care to share much about the experience.
To make this post worth posting, though, here's an interesting book on the subject you might want to check out.
In all of seriousness, once you've convinced a child that he doesn't need friends and that as long as he sticks with his suicidal motivation, he'll find happiness in life, you will have an even harder time convincing him about realities of the real world, which are almost precisely opposite.
I find it striking how so many "Chinese mothers" entirely neglect the importance of social skills in favor of 2400s, 4.0s and international music/math/science recognitions. In all of likelihood a person is not born with the talent he needs to be the indubitable god-gifted prodigy. More likely, copious quantities of hard work will bring him to a level of mere excellence. But in today's world, excellence alone will not bring you success or even money.
Additionally required are other people. Who you know (and more importantly, who knows you), given a sufficient competence level, is THE deciding factor. It is also the factor that may become a soulcrushing barrier to the child of the Chinese mother.
I feel like this article/her parenting methods were far too extreme. Maybe some children are luckily born strong enough to withstand it but what if they are not. What are you goin to think when your child kills himself or goes mad?
I mean it's about finding the right balance. You shouldn't be so lax that your kid goes down a shitty path and has horrible values but you can't push them to the breaking point.
My opinion on parenting is that there is no such thing as "one size fits all."
What might be a good method for one kid won't be for another. One kid might flourish under an "Asian mom" and become highly successful; another may rebel hardcore and do porn by the age of 18 just to stick it to them. One kid may end up a wonderfully creative, well-balanced person under "Western parents," and others may end up as lazy underachievers.
I just find it really hard to generalize when the success of parenting depends so much on a child's individual personality, talents, and interests.
If a Chinese child gets a B—which would never happen—there would first be a screaming, hair-tearing explosion. The devastated Chinese mother would then get dozens, maybe hundreds of practice tests and work through them with her child for as long as it takes to get the grade up to an A.
I found this paragraph to be extremely exaggerated.
lol no children would leave no disappointment, but this is too based on her own family and making it stereotype regardless of the stats used earlier in the article.
I think her method is a bit extreme (not letting her child go to the washroom is a bit pushing it, by anyone's standard), but she did have any good points.
The part about having fun only when a certain degree of mastery is achieved really shines, in my opinion.
EDIT:
I think this article is suitable for a western audience, but would gain bad publicity in Asia. I'd also like to point out that the author herself is a graduate of Harvard Law School and a professor of law at Yale - i.e. she is highly intelligent and successful - I assume her children are pretty smart too. Trying this on a very averaged kid and this will bond to fail.
i find it funny how she assumes that being child prodigy at the piano or violin = financial success, an obvious a fallacy judging on the current state of western music -.-she also fails to indicate to what happens when the children leave their parents...
You know, I've always found the large percentage of Asian students in top tier business schools in the states and relatively few asian men and women in a CEO position to be quite odd, on that note.
I think it's a mixture of environment, parenting, and the child himself/herself which actually determines likelihood of kids growing up to become normal, well-balanced, successful people.
On January 09 2011 09:20 Sawajiri wrote: My opinion on parenting is that there is no such thing as "one size fits all."
What might be a good method for one kid won't be for another. One kid might flourish under an "Asian mom" and become highly successful; another may rebel hardcore and do porn by the age of 18 just to stick it to them. One kid may end up a wonderfully creative, well-balanced person under "Western parents," and others may end up as lazy underachievers.
I just find it really hard to generalize when the success of parenting depends so much on a child's individual personality, talents, and interests.
edit: basically this
You guys can talk all you want about how Chinese kids are not well-balanced or aren't normal, but I think just as many Western kids are depressed/have low self esteem as Chinese kids.
On January 09 2011 09:24 Half wrote: You know, I've always found the amount of Asian students in top tier business schools in the states and the amount of Asian CEOs to be quite odd, on that note.
On January 09 2011 09:21 forcestealer wrote: i find it funny how she assumes that being child prodigy at the piano or violin = financial success, an obvious a fallacy judging on the current state of western music -.-she also fails to indicate to what happens when the children leave their parents...
She didn't say that. Frankly, I think it's better to spend time on violin than on playing sc2.
Not that I hate sc2, I am just stating what is probably her point of view - make children spend time on music instead of other, perhaps less desirable, activities.
It doesn't work though. You raise children that are good at work but bad at being people, so they just end up miserable. And a large percentage of people raised like this burn out anyway. Like Progamers in Korea and anything with that kind of workload, they start to have trouble sticking to their schedule then eventually burn out in about a decade.
On January 09 2011 09:03 Jumperer wrote: most chinese kids are emotionally unstable because they have been abused like a slave when they were younger.
Slave is a bit harsh, children to work the farm is a legitimate 19th century european and american reason to have them. Now just replace farm with family status.
On January 09 2011 09:21 forcestealer wrote: i find it funny how she assumes that being child prodigy at the piano or violin = financial success, an obvious a fallacy judging on the current state of western music -.-she also fails to indicate to what happens when the children leave their parents...
She didn't say that. Frankly, I think it's better to spend time on violin than on playing sc2.
Not that I hate sc2, I am just stating what is probably her point of view - make children spend time on music instead of other, perhaps less desirable, activities.
Except she specifically states that they are only allowed to learn either piano or violin. So she clearly feels that only those two are worthy/capable of making you into a successful (wealthy) person.
I think that above all else if everyone adhered to this method of raising their kids the would would be a fucking boring place.
On January 09 2011 09:26 Piy wrote: It doesn't work though. You raise children that are good at work but bad at being people, so they just end up miserable. And a large percentage of people raised like this burn out anyway. Like Progamers in Korea and anything with that kind of workload, they start to have trouble sticking to their schedule then eventually burn out in about a decade.
Meh.
I honestly don't think you can teach people skills to a 7 years old.
On January 09 2011 09:21 forcestealer wrote: i find it funny how she assumes that being child prodigy at the piano or violin = financial success, an obvious a fallacy judging on the current state of western music -.-she also fails to indicate to what happens when the children leave their parents...
She didn't say that. Frankly, I think it's better to spend time on violin than on playing sc2.
Not that I hate sc2, I am just stating what is probably her point of view - make children spend time on music instead of other, perhaps less desirable, activities.
Except she specifically states that they are only allowed to learn either piano or violin. So she clearly feels that only those two are worthy/capable of making you into a successful (wealthy) person.
I think that above all else if everyone adhered to this method of raising their kids the would would be a fucking boring place.
I think to be successful not only do you have to learn the skills that directly makes you successful (if you are a scientist, for example, then this skill would be what you learn in university), but discipline as well. I am not sure about violin, but piano is a very hard instrument to play and requires a lot of patience and discipline. That might be why.
Of course, you may argue about other instruments or activities that may do the same. I agree. But I think you are twisting what she said a little bit.
On January 09 2011 09:26 Piy wrote: It doesn't work though. You raise children that are good at work but bad at being people, so they just end up miserable. And a large percentage of people raised like this burn out anyway. Like Progamers in Korea and anything with that kind of workload, they start to have trouble sticking to their schedule then eventually burn out in about a decade.
Meh.
I honestly don't think you can teach people skills to a 7 years old.
Yeah you can, it's called letting them have friends & do normal social activities.
I think one of the reasons why the mindset of the author still carries a lot of weight in many people's minds when compared to 'Western parenting' is because Western parenting is difficult to do well and is almost always 'screwed up' to a degree. The type of parenting described in the article is not that difficult to do if you
a) Have time to be hands on b) Have no trouble dishing out tons of tough love
The type of parenting that proves to be successful in Western families is difficult to accomplish even if you have lots of time to dedicate to the child and willingness to do 'what is necessary.' It also needs to be adapted to every child as every child is different.
As others have said academic success and work ethic are only two pieces of a larger picture that shows all the aspects of health and development.
On January 09 2011 09:24 snotboogie wrote: Also, raising children in this way tends to produce obsessive-compulsive, perfectionistic adults who are prone to depression.
Basically that. A harsh childhood raising may lead to mentally unstable individuals as they reach their adulthood.
They clearly got a point, children are mentally weak, if you expect them to endure the hardship of a lifetime of study own their own accord you are basically hoping for a lottery ticket.
Learning how to endure long ours of grind in whatever it is, is one of the most usefull skills to have in todays society.
That said, theres a line between teaching your son not to give up, thro his own example of success again and again and again, and just being a dick parent.
I wonder if she titled it' why chinese mothers are superior' because her husband is white? She does continue the rest of her article using the more inclusive 'chinese parents' so I don't even know why she used that title.
On January 09 2011 09:16 D3ath3nat0r wrote: I am asian, my parents dont really pressure me into do anything, they just give me a lecture, you fail grades--> you fail school --> you go terrible college ---> you get terrible job----> have terrible life
it really wants to make me do well, you can be popular now in school but end up being a dumb ass and no1 liking you in the future
Being popular is a good of indication of success imo than any.
Not like you cant get good grades and have a social life.
How retarded is this? Favouring "A"s over developing the childs interest in a specific field and just accidentally producing a socially underdeveloped supernerd who will likely have trouble enjoying his life by the time he needs to stand on his own feet.
The author sounds so fucking full of herself it's disgusting. How can you put your childs SUCCESS in such a priority, disregard almost anything else and even brag about it?
Not to mention that there are "western-parenting" ways of giving your child success, while not turning it into a person who is 100% identifiable with the socially awkward penguin.
Honestly the rage-macro would be adequate here, I'm RL raging at this idiocy.
On January 09 2011 09:34 buickskylark wrote: I wonder if she titled it' why chinese mothers are superior' because her husband is white? She does continue the rest of her article using the more inclusive 'chinese parents' so I don't even know why she used that title.
Probably because in Chinese culture, the mother interacts a lot more with her children than the father, who usually works and comes off as detached.
If a Chinese child gets a B—which would never happen—there would first be a screaming, hair-tearing explosion. The devastated Chinese mother would then get dozens, maybe hundreds of practice tests and work through them with her child for as long as it takes to get the grade up to an A.
I found this paragraph to be extremely exaggerated.
Yep. People love to overlook the fact that Asian parents still love their children and that while their methods are different from Western styles are representative of this. Of course there are problems with the stereotypical Asian approach to parenting, but that is the case for every approach.
And to the person with the money doesn't solve everything. There's a Chinese proverb that summarizes the fallacy in buying into logic, roughly paraphrasing: Money is not everything but you can't do anything without it.
And to the person asking for statistics, get a clue. Statistics are after the fact, they do not predict the future contrary to popular belief. Unless you really want to live your life based on statistics based on someone else's life. You want to know why anecdotal stories are useful? Because you can think about how your life compares to someone else's and how they approach the ideal of succeeding at life differs from yours. In other words, it lets you learn from others. When Asian parents say so and so got something great, they're not saying go out and do the same, they're saying to think about how you can achieve something just as great.
Ironically the statistics argument is precisely the reason why Asian parents prefer the "safe" approach to success...and so to the person saying Asians will never raise a Bill Gates or Steve Jobs, get a clue too. How many college dropouts went on to succeed like Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerburg? How many individuals without a college degree went on to be living comfortably in life? Then ask yourself how big of a pool those individuals came out of.
I am not saying Chinese mothers are tops, I am just addressing some of the fallacies being brought up in this thread and that the Chinese approach to parenting somehow dooms their kids on multiple levels. I will say this though, the one-child policy puts an unique twist on parenting.
On January 09 2011 09:36 heishe wrote: How retarded is this? Favouring "A"s over developing the childs interest in a specific field and just accidentally producing a socially underdeveloped supernerd who will likely have trouble enjoying his life by the time he needs to stand on his own feet.
The author sounds so fucking full of herself it's disgusting. How can you put your childs SUCCESS in such a priority, disregard almost anything else and even brag about it?
Honestly the rage-macro would be adequate here, I'm RL raging at this idiocy.
You know what's fucking disgusting? The amount of people in this thread who automatically assume that these kids are going to be "socially undeveloped", "emotionally unstable", "likely to do drugs", and "completely dependent on their parents". Fuck off.
Maybe cultural differences? Asian culture stresses the betterment of the community and/or family and western culture is more about individuality, but im just pulling this out my ass.
On January 09 2011 09:36 heishe wrote: How retarded is this? Favouring "A"s over developing the childs interest in a specific field and just accidentally producing a socially underdeveloped supernerd who will likely have trouble enjoying his life by the time he needs to stand on his own feet.
The author sounds so fucking full of herself it's disgusting. How can you put your childs SUCCESS in such a priority, disregard almost anything else and even brag about it?
Honestly the rage-macro would be adequate here, I'm RL raging at this idiocy.
You know what's fucking disgusting? The amount of people in this thread who automatically assume that these kids are going to be "socially undeveloped", "emotionally unstable", "likely to do drugs", and "completely dependent on their parents". Fuck off.
I'm not saying anything about using drugs and being completely dependnet on their parents, but how can something like this possibly produce anyone who does not have a few social phobias, or someone with an extreme pressure for success?
On January 09 2011 09:36 heishe wrote: How retarded is this? Favouring "A"s over developing the childs interest in a specific field and just accidentally producing a socially underdeveloped supernerd who will likely have trouble enjoying his life by the time he needs to stand on his own feet.
The author sounds so fucking full of herself it's disgusting. How can you put your childs SUCCESS in such a priority, disregard almost anything else and even brag about it?
Honestly the rage-macro would be adequate here, I'm RL raging at this idiocy.
You know what's fucking disgusting? The amount of people in this thread who automatically assume that these kids are going to be "socially undeveloped", "emotionally unstable", "likely to do drugs", and "completely dependent on their parents". Fuck off.
Child abuse is a well documented cause of many psychological problems, I think it's safe to assume anyone emotionally (& physically) abused like the writers children will have some issues in later life stemming from it.
my kid is going to have so many video games he'll frekaing get adhd by the age of 2. Thats a promise. Fuck all this crap about having kids being successful and shit. I'll work hard enough so that they don't have to.
I was thinking that the entire article was some huge exaggeration (it would've been pretty funny if it was) until the piano part... wow someone has issues.
On January 09 2011 09:39 Proxie wrote: Maybe cultural differences? Asian culture stresses the betterment of the community and/or family and western culture is more about individuality? but im just pulling this out my ass.
It's not betterment it's status, think shame based culture and punishment.
On January 09 2011 09:42 synapse wrote: I was thinking that the entire article was some huge exaggeration (it would've been pretty funny if it was) until the piano part... wow someone has issues.
It would be funny if it was satire it's just kind of sad instead.
On January 09 2011 09:36 heishe wrote: How retarded is this? Favouring "A"s over developing the childs interest in a specific field and just accidentally producing a socially underdeveloped supernerd who will likely have trouble enjoying his life by the time he needs to stand on his own feet.
The author sounds so fucking full of herself it's disgusting. How can you put your childs SUCCESS in such a priority, disregard almost anything else and even brag about it?
Honestly the rage-macro would be adequate here, I'm RL raging at this idiocy.
You know what's fucking disgusting? The amount of people in this thread who automatically assume that these kids are going to be "socially undeveloped", "emotionally unstable", "likely to do drugs", and "completely dependent on their parents". Fuck off.
If you follow the guidelines stated in that article, your children are very likely to be all of those things.
The kind of strict, neurosis-inducing, ends-oriented parenting many Chinese parents favor is nothing more than filial totalitarianism.
Ok so why play any instrument besides piano or violen? I'm just really curious about this and this seemed to catch my eye more than anything in the article. If anyone could elaborate I'd appreciate it <3
On January 09 2011 09:36 heishe wrote: How retarded is this? Favouring "A"s over developing the childs interest in a specific field and just accidentally producing a socially underdeveloped supernerd who will likely have trouble enjoying his life by the time he needs to stand on his own feet.
The author sounds so fucking full of herself it's disgusting. How can you put your childs SUCCESS in such a priority, disregard almost anything else and even brag about it?
Honestly the rage-macro would be adequate here, I'm RL raging at this idiocy.
You know what's fucking disgusting? The amount of people in this thread who automatically assume that these kids are going to be "socially undeveloped", "emotionally unstable", "likely to do drugs", and "completely dependent on their parents". Fuck off.
Child abuse is a well documented cause of many psychological problems, I think it's safe to assume anyone emotionally (& physically) abused like the writers children will have some issues in later life stemming from it.
Then shit, kids without parenting must grow up to be pinnacles of society. Slow down, this isn't abuse.
On January 09 2011 09:46 Sephy69 wrote: Ok so why play any instrument besides piano or violen? I'm just really curious about this and this seemed to catch my eye more than anything in the article. If anyone could elaborate I'd appreciate it <3
Because P/V looks and sounds better; the associations with each instrument are far greater than any other. Think about it, how many famous clarinet or oboe players do you know? All the famous composers were closely associated with the two instruments in question.
I agree with the part about instilling good work ethic part so they have the drive to put in the work but other then that...yikes. You can instill good values and strong work ethic to get the good grades and they can still have a life.
On January 09 2011 09:36 heishe wrote: How retarded is this? Favouring "A"s over developing the childs interest in a specific field and just accidentally producing a socially underdeveloped supernerd who will likely have trouble enjoying his life by the time he needs to stand on his own feet.
The author sounds so fucking full of herself it's disgusting. How can you put your childs SUCCESS in such a priority, disregard almost anything else and even brag about it?
Honestly the rage-macro would be adequate here, I'm RL raging at this idiocy.
You know what's fucking disgusting? The amount of people in this thread who automatically assume that these kids are going to be "socially undeveloped", "emotionally unstable", "likely to do drugs", and "completely dependent on their parents". Fuck off.
If you follow the guidelines stated in that article, your children are very likely to be all of those things.
The kind of strict, neurosis-inducing, ends-oriented parenting many Chinese parents favor is nothing more than filial totalitarianism.
The other side of the coin is that she's right to a certain degree. I personally don't see anything wrong with strictly emphasizing academic word among other things. The point is to reinforce a good work ethic and to teach that anything can be done with hard work.
I know kids who's parents were closely like the author, and they turned out fine. Not all kids are the same, and some will flourish under such parenting while still being aware of the need for other things in their life other than academic success.
Keep in mind that completely blowing off an entire style of parenting is no better than enforcing a completely "totalitarian" one.
I really can't agree that the "having a life is better" argument is any much better than the original author's. Sometimes I prefer what most people would consider "having no life" and staying home and studying to stay on top of my work instead of blowing off work to socialize. It's not that I hate people or I'm a shut in of any sort - you just have to prioritize.
On January 09 2011 09:21 forcestealer wrote: i find it funny how she assumes that being child prodigy at the piano or violin = financial success, an obvious a fallacy judging on the current state of western music -.-she also fails to indicate to what happens when the children leave their parents...
She didn't say that. Frankly, I think it's better to spend time on violin than on playing sc2.
Not that I hate sc2, I am just stating what is probably her point of view - make children spend time on music instead of other, perhaps less desirable, activities.
I never said that spending time playing SC2 is better than playing the violin
Although playing Violin being extremely good at it could possibly land you a job playing for an orchestra or composing music, what's to say that if you were really good at SC2 couldn't lead to financial success?
I personally think that success is more based on a person's willingness to work rather than some person forcing you to work. For example, all those korean pro-gamers spend HOURS training. They don't have their moms behind them yelling at them forcing them to play starcraft all day...and yet, they are fairly financially successful in korea (ofcourse i don't know their actual salaries so i can't actually judge how good their finances actually are)
On January 09 2011 09:36 heishe wrote: How retarded is this? Favouring "A"s over developing the childs interest in a specific field and just accidentally producing a socially underdeveloped supernerd who will likely have trouble enjoying his life by the time he needs to stand on his own feet.
The author sounds so fucking full of herself it's disgusting. How can you put your childs SUCCESS in such a priority, disregard almost anything else and even brag about it?
Honestly the rage-macro would be adequate here, I'm RL raging at this idiocy.
You know what's fucking disgusting? The amount of people in this thread who automatically assume that these kids are going to be "socially undeveloped", "emotionally unstable", "likely to do drugs", and "completely dependent on their parents". Fuck off.
Child abuse is a well documented cause of many psychological problems, I think it's safe to assume anyone emotionally (& physically) abused like the writers children will have some issues in later life stemming from it.
Then shit, kids without parenting must grow up to be pinnacles of society. Slow down, this isn't abuse.
Not letting your kid go to the bathroom because they aren't able to perform an extremely technical piece of music on the piano isn't child abuse? What is then?
On January 09 2011 09:47 Slaughter wrote: I agree with the part about instilling good work ethic part so they have the drive to put in the work but other then that...yikes. You can instill good values and strong work ethic to get the good grades and they can still have a life.
But i can't brag about my kid having a life on the other hand i can brag about my kid being top of his class.
On January 09 2011 09:41 ffz wrote: my kid is going to have so many video games he'll frekaing get adhd by the age of 2. Thats a promise. Fuck all this crap about having kids being successful and shit. I'll work hard enough so that they don't have to.
Well, thank you for being such a good socialist and designing your children to help redistribute your wealth. (rich idiots for the win)
I saw this article in the newspaper this morning, but didn't get around to reading it. I would hate somebody for years if they repeatedly did this to me. Yes, you need some pressure, and some "western" parents can be weaker-"do whatever you want to, some develop more slowly than others". But something close to torture? No. I've heard stories from trustworthy friends about children, usually asian, who have these kinds of parents and burst into tears when they get their report card because they got a B. She's walking a very fine line between motivation and harassment that, as somebody else said, could lead to suicide/depression. I know such treatment would lead to that in myself (or maybe just anger). "Garbage?" Really? At the same time, in order to succeed, a child needs help on work and needs motivation. A C is not a good grade (in 99% of cases) Playdates are one of the main ways to develop social skills. You WILL "fail" in life without basic people skills, unless your IQ is 180+. The thing that bugs me most is that she tries to force her children to be No 1 in everything. Mathematically this is not possible, if there are several children with such "demanding" parents. Somehow I don't understand how a child could forgive her mother so easily after the piano torture. Unless you were used to such torture, and accepted it as a fact of life. (unlikely, unless you were beaten since childhood)
Part of the reason why many foreign groups feel as though their academic standards are so high is that, for the most part, only the smart, educated people are able to immigrate to the US, giving a biased impression of the nationality. Although many nationalities put a much larger focus on education than we do here. (Not that I'm one to judge-I go to one of the best schools in my state, if not the country) That's my rant.
On January 09 2011 09:36 heishe wrote: How retarded is this? Favouring "A"s over developing the childs interest in a specific field and just accidentally producing a socially underdeveloped supernerd who will likely have trouble enjoying his life by the time he needs to stand on his own feet.
The author sounds so fucking full of herself it's disgusting. How can you put your childs SUCCESS in such a priority, disregard almost anything else and even brag about it?
Honestly the rage-macro would be adequate here, I'm RL raging at this idiocy.
You know what's fucking disgusting? The amount of people in this thread who automatically assume that these kids are going to be "socially undeveloped", "emotionally unstable", "likely to do drugs", and "completely dependent on their parents". Fuck off.
Child abuse is a well documented cause of many psychological problems, I think it's safe to assume anyone emotionally (& physically) abused like the writers children will have some issues in later life stemming from it.
Then shit, kids without parenting must grow up to be pinnacles of society. Slow down, this isn't abuse.
Not letting your kid go to the bathroom because they aren't able to perform an extremely technical piece of music on the piano isn't child abuse? What is then?
Yeah, the kid totally shit her pants and child services came over. Glad you can take an isolated situation and make massive assumptions that the parent must be abusing the kids. I understand your logic, but you're making a pretty big leap of faith. Abuse implies that the parent doesn't have the best interests of the child in mind, which clearly isn't the case. The child isn't going to be scarred for life because of this. I am more curious to what you consider exactly to be child abuse (aka your definition/parameters), otherwise there's no point to any of your posts.
On January 09 2011 09:47 Slaughter wrote: I agree with the part about instilling good work ethic part so they have the drive to put in the work but other then that...yikes. You can instill good values and strong work ethic to get the good grades and they can still have a life.
But i can't brag about my kid having a life on the other hand i can brag about my kid being top of his class.
This happens with everyone of every ethnicity, there's 2 problems with this. One is taking pride for your child's success, there's nothing wrong with this and a lot of people associate this as living through your child which is rarer than you think (at least with all of the Asians I have known). The second is that I would be more scared for the jock families than the Asians.
For the people who are uninformed, not all Chinese mothers are like this (im sure most of you are smart enough to know this though), this is just some dumbass insane batshit bitch. (she even looks like one)
The only thing that disturbs me is the smug arrogance she uses writing the article. She is 100% sure than in her mind, that is the correct way and only way to raise a child. That's fucking sad.
On January 09 2011 09:36 heishe wrote: How retarded is this? Favouring "A"s over developing the childs interest in a specific field and just accidentally producing a socially underdeveloped supernerd who will likely have trouble enjoying his life by the time he needs to stand on his own feet.
The author sounds so fucking full of herself it's disgusting. How can you put your childs SUCCESS in such a priority, disregard almost anything else and even brag about it?
Honestly the rage-macro would be adequate here, I'm RL raging at this idiocy.
You know what's fucking disgusting? The amount of people in this thread who automatically assume that these kids are going to be "socially undeveloped", "emotionally unstable", "likely to do drugs", and "completely dependent on their parents". Fuck off.
Child abuse is a well documented cause of many psychological problems, I think it's safe to assume anyone emotionally (& physically) abused like the writers children will have some issues in later life stemming from it.
Then shit, kids without parenting must grow up to be pinnacles of society. Slow down, this isn't abuse.
Not letting your kid go to the bathroom because they aren't able to perform an extremely technical piece of music on the piano isn't child abuse? What is then?
Yeah, the kid totally shit her pants and child services came over. Glad you can take an isolated situation and make massive assumptions that the parent must be abusing the kids. I understand your logic, but you're making a pretty big leap of faith. Abuse implies that the parent doesn't have the best interests of the child in mind, which clearly isn't the case. The child isn't going to be scarred for life because of this. I am more curious to what you consider exactly to be child abuse (aka your definition/parameters), otherwise there's no point to any of your posts.
Also, colleges "say" they value "well-roundedness" over "sit in a room and studying". Its true, to a certain degree. A person I know well recently got into two of the top 10ish schools in the nation, while a friend, who skipped a year of math and took math classes at a Ivy league school was rejected.
Sounds more like child abuse than parenting to me. I guess I would be more comfortable with this if the author gave some indication that she thought through the possible consequences instead of blindly following what she saw from her parents.
On January 09 2011 09:36 heishe wrote: How retarded is this? Favouring "A"s over developing the childs interest in a specific field and just accidentally producing a socially underdeveloped supernerd who will likely have trouble enjoying his life by the time he needs to stand on his own feet.
The author sounds so fucking full of herself it's disgusting. How can you put your childs SUCCESS in such a priority, disregard almost anything else and even brag about it?
Honestly the rage-macro would be adequate here, I'm RL raging at this idiocy.
You know what's fucking disgusting? The amount of people in this thread who automatically assume that these kids are going to be "socially undeveloped", "emotionally unstable", "likely to do drugs", and "completely dependent on their parents". Fuck off.
Child abuse is a well documented cause of many psychological problems, I think it's safe to assume anyone emotionally (& physically) abused like the writers children will have some issues in later life stemming from it.
Then shit, kids without parenting must grow up to be pinnacles of society. Slow down, this isn't abuse.
Not letting your kid go to the bathroom because they aren't able to perform an extremely technical piece of music on the piano isn't child abuse? What is then?
Yeah, the kid totally shit her pants and child services came over. Glad you can take an isolated situation and make massive assumptions that the parent must be abusing the kids. I understand your logic, but you're making a pretty big leap of faith. Abuse implies that the parent doesn't have the best interests of the child in mind, which clearly isn't the case. The child isn't going to be scarred for life because of this. I am more curious to what you consider exactly to be child abuse (aka your definition/parameters), otherwise there's no point to any of your posts.
I'm not assuming the parents were abusing their kids.. they were. Not letting someone go to the bathroom is an idea you might have when considering how to torture a person, not something you would do to your children. The fact that she decided to use such a harsh 'punishment' over something as ridiculous as piano training is disgusting to me.
This article is super specific and probably only applies to that author's family and a few others. I'm Chinese and have plenty of close Chinese friends from school and none of their parents act like this. For me personally, work ethic was instilled very early on i.e. elementary school, and my parents didn't have to say much for me to study or get good grades from then on. Most of this article contains blatant exaggerations and just plain stupid parenting, for example the "no eating until you learn this piano song" kind of thing.
The only thing that is pretty true in the article is the part where Chinese parents can call their kids fat. It may seem brutal but it's actually pretty much normal for Chinese parents to be blunt about stuff like that. It may seem insensitive, but in Chinese culture it's pretty commonplace. Going with that idea, it's also common for Chinese parents to give "negative reinforcement" as they tend to see the negative side of a situation, e.g. when my friend got a near-perfect 36 on his ACT his parents raged because he got a 35 on Science.
If you want to raise robots then this method of parenting is ideal. However, realize that robots are all B team practice partners. Starleague champions aren't raised this way.
On January 09 2011 09:36 heishe wrote: How retarded is this? Favouring "A"s over developing the childs interest in a specific field and just accidentally producing a socially underdeveloped supernerd who will likely have trouble enjoying his life by the time he needs to stand on his own feet.
The author sounds so fucking full of herself it's disgusting. How can you put your childs SUCCESS in such a priority, disregard almost anything else and even brag about it?
Honestly the rage-macro would be adequate here, I'm RL raging at this idiocy.
You know what's fucking disgusting? The amount of people in this thread who automatically assume that these kids are going to be "socially undeveloped", "emotionally unstable", "likely to do drugs", and "completely dependent on their parents". Fuck off.
If you follow the guidelines stated in that article, your children are very likely to be all of those things.
The kind of strict, neurosis-inducing, ends-oriented parenting many Chinese parents favor is nothing more than filial totalitarianism.
I personally don't like the way that it's described, but the whole psychodynamic concept of overprotective or strict mothers doesn't really seem to add up either. People used to(or still..) blame a lot of mental illness on mothers but now it's just not showing up in research.
On January 09 2011 09:36 heishe wrote: How retarded is this? Favouring "A"s over developing the childs interest in a specific field and just accidentally producing a socially underdeveloped supernerd who will likely have trouble enjoying his life by the time he needs to stand on his own feet.
The author sounds so fucking full of herself it's disgusting. How can you put your childs SUCCESS in such a priority, disregard almost anything else and even brag about it?
Honestly the rage-macro would be adequate here, I'm RL raging at this idiocy.
You know what's fucking disgusting? The amount of people in this thread who automatically assume that these kids are going to be "socially undeveloped", "emotionally unstable", "likely to do drugs", and "completely dependent on their parents". Fuck off.
If you follow the guidelines stated in that article, your children are very likely to be all of those things.
The kind of strict, neurosis-inducing, ends-oriented parenting many Chinese parents favor is nothing more than filial totalitarianism.
Nice. Throw in an illogical adjective in between two reasonable ones and hope people automatically agree with all three, or just fail to notice the gravity of the second one in between thanks to the serial position effect.
So many meaningless assumptions in this thread. Even if you were an expert on psychology and childhood development, you still wouldn't be justified in your conclusion that this style of parenting is likely (read more than 50%) going to result in socially underdeveloped and emotionally unstable children. You provide absolutely no data or reason for your argument.
Here's my argument. I know three people who have undergone this style of parenting and all 3 appear to be fine. 100% success rate, pretty good right?
On January 09 2011 09:36 heishe wrote: How retarded is this? Favouring "A"s over developing the childs interest in a specific field and just accidentally producing a socially underdeveloped supernerd who will likely have trouble enjoying his life by the time he needs to stand on his own feet.
The author sounds so fucking full of herself it's disgusting. How can you put your childs SUCCESS in such a priority, disregard almost anything else and even brag about it?
Honestly the rage-macro would be adequate here, I'm RL raging at this idiocy.
You know what's fucking disgusting? The amount of people in this thread who automatically assume that these kids are going to be "socially undeveloped", "emotionally unstable", "likely to do drugs", and "completely dependent on their parents". Fuck off.
Child abuse is a well documented cause of many psychological problems, I think it's safe to assume anyone emotionally (& physically) abused like the writers children will have some issues in later life stemming from it.
Then shit, kids without parenting must grow up to be pinnacles of society. Slow down, this isn't abuse.
Not letting your kid go to the bathroom because they aren't able to perform an extremely technical piece of music on the piano isn't child abuse? What is then?
Yeah, the kid totally shit her pants and child services came over. Glad you can take an isolated situation and make massive assumptions that the parent must be abusing the kids. I understand your logic, but you're making a pretty big leap of faith. Abuse implies that the parent doesn't have the best interests of the child in mind, which clearly isn't the case. The child isn't going to be scarred for life because of this. I am more curious to what you consider exactly to be child abuse (aka your definition/parameters), otherwise there's no point to any of your posts.
I'm not assuming the parents were abusing their kids.. they were. Not letting someone go to the bathroom is an idea you might have when considering how to torture a person, not something you would do to your children. The fact that she decided to use such a harsh 'punishment' over something as ridiculous as piano training is disgusting to me.
Like I said, define your idea of child abuse otherwise your post carries no content. I think you are taking the situation farther than what it actually went down, but that's normal people tend to take things to the extreme when the entire situation isn't known. I wouldn't say her methods are great, but I wouldn't dismiss her ideas. The problem with your logic is that you automatically assume that this method of parenting will doom the kid to problems later in life, that in itself is an assumption, different people respond differently, children are not that different. If parenting was really that easy and kids were really that malleable, then every kid who underwent a divorce or family death would be one fucked up serial killer.
That being said, there's a bunch of assumptions being floated around and half the posters can't distinguish them from fact.
Shiet my parents weren't that harsh but I know friends in college now whose parents still treat them that way. Honestly it's degrading being forced into a field of study which you are not interested (medicine, computer engineering etc.) and degrading to be locked in your house as a college student if you did poorly on an exam (i.e. a B). The "Chinese mother" method of parenting is not in the best interest of the kid. I was raised with mixed parenting strategies - I did attend academic enrichment classes by force, but I also was given a high degree of freedom later in high school and encouraged to pursue creative activities such as writing. I did exceptionally well on the SATs and got into a great university without the sort of enslavement many of my friends endured. I could tell they loathed the lifetime of restriction and over-discipline while maintaining some semblance of external normality. But I also know they're not going to grow up as balanced people.
On January 09 2011 09:36 heishe wrote: How retarded is this? Favouring "A"s over developing the childs interest in a specific field and just accidentally producing a socially underdeveloped supernerd who will likely have trouble enjoying his life by the time he needs to stand on his own feet.
The author sounds so fucking full of herself it's disgusting. How can you put your childs SUCCESS in such a priority, disregard almost anything else and even brag about it?
Honestly the rage-macro would be adequate here, I'm RL raging at this idiocy.
You know what's fucking disgusting? The amount of people in this thread who automatically assume that these kids are going to be "socially undeveloped", "emotionally unstable", "likely to do drugs", and "completely dependent on their parents". Fuck off.
Child abuse is a well documented cause of many psychological problems, I think it's safe to assume anyone emotionally (& physically) abused like the writers children will have some issues in later life stemming from it.
Then shit, kids without parenting must grow up to be pinnacles of society. Slow down, this isn't abuse.
Not letting your kid go to the bathroom because they aren't able to perform an extremely technical piece of music on the piano isn't child abuse? What is then?
Yeah, the kid totally shit her pants and child services came over. Glad you can take an isolated situation and make massive assumptions that the parent must be abusing the kids. I understand your logic, but you're making a pretty big leap of faith. Abuse implies that the parent doesn't have the best interests of the child in mind, which clearly isn't the case. The child isn't going to be scarred for life because of this. I am more curious to what you consider exactly to be child abuse (aka your definition/parameters), otherwise there's no point to any of your posts.
I'm not assuming the parents were abusing their kids.. they were. Not letting someone go to the bathroom is an idea you might have when considering how to torture a person, not something you would do to your children. The fact that she decided to use such a harsh 'punishment' over something as ridiculous as piano training is disgusting to me.
Like I said, define your idea of child abuse otherwise your post carries no content. I think you are taking the situation farther than what it actually went down, but that's normal people tend to take things to the extreme when the entire situation isn't known. I wouldn't say her methods are great, but I wouldn't dismiss her ideas. The problem with your logic is that you automatically assume that this method of parenting will doom the kid to problems later in life, that in itself is an assumption, different people respond differently, children are not that different. If parenting was really that easy and kids were really that malleable, then every kid who underwent a divorce or family death would be one fucked up serial killer.
That being said, there's a bunch of assumptions being floated around and half the posters can't distinguish them from fact.
Increased likelihood if they are white male and live in the US just saying we own in the serial killer department.
On January 09 2011 10:08 j0k3r wrote: Shiet my parents weren't that harsh but I know friends in college now whose parents still treat them that way. Honestly it's degrading being forced into a field of study which you are not interested (medicine, computer engineering etc.) and degrading to be locked in your house as a college student if you did poorly on an exam (i.e. a B). The "Chinese mother" method of parenting is not in the best interest of the kid. I was raised with mixed parenting strategies - I did attend academic enrichment classes by force, but I also was given a high degree of freedom later in high school and encouraged to pursue creative activities such as writing. I did exceptionally well on the SATs and got into a great university without the sort of enslavement many of my friends endured. I could tell they loathed the lifetime of restriction and over-discipline while maintaining some semblance of external normality. But I also know they're not going to grow up as balanced people.
I have no idea where you get the idea that you need to be "balanced" to be successful. Go read up on Facebook's founder, he sucks at people skills ironically.
On January 09 2011 10:04 ktp wrote: If you want to raise robots then this method of parenting is ideal. However, realize that robots are all B team practice partners. Starleague champions aren't raised this way.
Oh, why's that? Do you think Flash and Jaedong don't practice to a ridiculous extent or something? I, for one, was under the impression Flash was a machine.
I'm really curious to see what people in this thread would think is normal behavior for a person and how many of people who are brought up in the 'Western tradition' actually fit this characterization.
It's funny how it's titled to prove how Chinese mothers are superior, then doesn't really go about proving it. It just details how Chinese parenting is different, not superior. The entire article is based on the assumption that Chinese kids are more successful than Western kids, which is never proven or explained in depth anywhere.
The article is just really bad writing. It's like analyzing a novel for writing class, noting (for example) that a character's shirt is green, his card is green, he works for Greene corp... but never explaining the significance of the color green in the first place. Here Chua states, first thing, that Chinese parents "raise such stereotypically successful kids" and she does nothing to prove the depth of that claim.
On January 09 2011 09:36 heishe wrote: How retarded is this? Favouring "A"s over developing the childs interest in a specific field and just accidentally producing a socially underdeveloped supernerd who will likely have trouble enjoying his life by the time he needs to stand on his own feet.
The author sounds so fucking full of herself it's disgusting. How can you put your childs SUCCESS in such a priority, disregard almost anything else and even brag about it?
Honestly the rage-macro would be adequate here, I'm RL raging at this idiocy.
You know what's fucking disgusting? The amount of people in this thread who automatically assume that these kids are going to be "socially undeveloped", "emotionally unstable", "likely to do drugs", and "completely dependent on their parents". Fuck off.
If you follow the guidelines stated in that article, your children are very likely to be all of those things.
The kind of strict, neurosis-inducing, ends-oriented parenting many Chinese parents favor is nothing more than filial totalitarianism.
The other side of the coin is that she's right to a certain degree. I personally don't see anything wrong with strictly emphasizing academic word among other things. The point is to reinforce a good work ethic and to teach that anything can be done with hard work.
I know kids who's parents were closely like the author, and they turned out fine. Not all kids are the same, and some will flourish under such parenting while still being aware of the need for other things in their life other than academic success.
Keep in mind that completely blowing off an entire style of parenting is no better than enforcing a completely "totalitarian" one.
I really can't agree that the "having a life is better" argument is any much better than the original author's. Sometimes I prefer what most people would consider "having no life" and staying home and studying to stay on top of my work instead of blowing off work to socialize. It's not that I hate people or I'm a shut in of any sort - you just have to prioritize.
And I know plenty of kids whose parents were closely like the author, and they ended up having serious drug and depression problems. One even ended up killing his mother. Expecting a child to have the work ethic and threshold for monotony and solitude of an adult is psychotic, and things like forcing your kids to learn instruments under penalty of urinary incontinence is child abuse.
You can teach things like the value of a good work ethic and the importance of academic prowess without making them the principal motors for your parenting, and even then I would argue that such things are secondary to the most important tools for living life: proper mental and social faculties chiefly amongst them.
On January 09 2011 09:24 snotboogie wrote: Not all Chinese mothers are like that.
Also, raising children in this way tends to produce obsessive-compulsive, perfectionistic adults who are prone to depression.
Then how would you explain Western-style-parented kids having OCD or perfectionism?
Well OCD and depression have many factors.
The problem with this kind of parenting is the child learns early on that love is conditional. They learn they have to do something to deserve love and this encourages them to attack themselves mentally, which some particular stress event could push into painful thinking.
I think there's a lot of false information being thrown around in this thread. I myself was raised under extremist asian parents, so I was beaten and confined quite a bit. Being raised like this definitely does cause antisocial behavior and social withdrawal, and it also causes depression, but at the same time, it also helps us deal with it quite well since we're raised to think more logically. I don't know how being raised by asian parents leads to drug use though, there is absolutely no connection. Being raised by asian parents really teaches you to face every problem head on. So when I have problems with my parents, I study harder. I have never even considered drugs as an alternative. Also, I think being raised by asian parents makes you a lot more independent than being raised the conventional way. When you never miss home and facing society is a lot easier than facing your parents, moving out is a breeze.
I knew a kid whose chinese parents got pissed at him for not maintaining perfect grades. It's not that he didn't try - his parents forced him to study and he tried his best, but no matter he couldn't meet their standards. His parents called him stupid, they accused him of trying to disappoint them, they punished him by not letting him go to friends houses, go to movies, etc.
Eventually he straight up hung himself in school.
The best way is to have a balanced approach. Yes, you should establish a good work ethic - teach children to do their homework, to study, to get good grades, but also let them have some fun. Yelling at a child for getting an A- is ridiculous. I'd rather have a child who gets A- or B+ and has an active social life and friends as opposed to an A+ tryhard who studies/plays instruments all day and night.
addendum: in high school my parents didn't even check my grades. They give me complete independence and do not force me to study - I studied on my own and completed work on my own. When I was younger they taught me that learning was its own reward, that I should always try my best, and that it's important not to be lazy. I'm no genius, not valedictorian, but did get accepted into Cornell while still having fun in high school and maintaining an active social life.
There are a lot of kids in my school raised in the manner described in that article, and they hate their lives. They walk into class like zombies because they get 3-4 hours of sleep a night. They'll fight with the teacher over 3 points on a test because they got a 95 instead of a 98 (while I might be sitting in class happy with a 92). Their grades are their lives.
I say fuck that, go out and have some fun, you only fucking live once, you're only a kid once.
On January 09 2011 10:04 ktp wrote: If you want to raise robots then this method of parenting is ideal. However, realize that robots are all B team practice partners. Starleague champions aren't raised this way.
Oh, why's that? Do you think Flash and Jaedong don't practice to a ridiculous extent or something? I, for one, was under the impression Flash was a machine.
There's the idea of 10000 hours. They have put in their time, and thus are experts at sc2. If you do anything for a long time, you'll be very good at it. At the same time, I think the ideal method is a balance. However, I'm biased. That's what I have, and I'm a happy person who does very well in school. I'm on a robotics team, and I would never have found it under her style of parenting. However, I've done very well at it (4th-1st, if not for a fluke chance- at an international competition!). It has given me so much experience in engineering and programming. Without it, I would be just a random guy with no friends (almost all of my friends come from/are on the team) Perhaps the parent is trying to hide inner psychological issues? What do you guys think? Which is the best way to work? A: Self motivation B: Forced by others I personally advocate A, because your parents will not always be around. A good work ethic will get you through most anything.
I'm sure there are zero psychological effects on the child from this type of parenting.
IMO in the ideal world, society should be the ones to urge children to be successful while family should be there to urge their children to be happy. If the family stops focusing on the kid's happiness, then where else will he/she find it?
On January 09 2011 10:02 MetalMarine wrote: I am going to fucking give everyone who posts in this thread $5 if her daughters become pornstars. Please quote me on this
I'd better get in on this thread, then.
A couple things in the article made sense - don't lie/condescend to your children just to make them think they're wonderful; push them to do well, help them to do well.
But don't fucking shackle your child to the piano because you want a prize pony to show your mother and all the other crazy-bitch mothers who abuse their kids out of 'love'.
I'm a big fan of strict parenting, but I think some of things that she's strict with is just 'ehh.'
Be strict with making your kids do well in school, whatever it is that they're studying so that they know how to do their own work. Be strict in teaching your children to be mannered and depend on themselves. I played a good amount of video games, watched TV, and such, I finished high school at a college prep school and went on to attend one of the best schools from my graduating class.
I mean it seems like this lady isnt into letting her kids have any fun. These are the type of kids who grow up and dont know how to relax when they aren't No.1 in college, but actually are getting their first 'B' of their lives. When I hear about kids committing suicide at some of the local universities, it's usually because they can't cope with the idea that they're not the all time best and have no idea on how to relax their self and recharge for other exams and tasks.
also she seems to hate the Arts, with the exception of music, which is probably because things like piano and the violin are classical and are encouraged because of helping the brain develop.
Are there any psychological issues that so called chinese mothers DON'T give their children? Just wondering.. It would be very nice to see something to back up the statements that this kind of parental style leads to various problems.
We don't need any more Westerners coming into this thread and posting shit about how Chinese kids are definitely going to be socially awkward and have depression and low self-esteem and do drugs or shit like that.
Yeah some of them are gonna be like that but that doesn't mean you can say that "Chinese parenting produces screwed up kids". Western kids have their fair share of screwed up kids too, and plus they are more likely to get spoiled by their parents or end up as lazy idiots who don't want to work hard.
Being "not normal" or "not balanced" doesn't mean a person has low self-esteem or is depressed or is basically going to fail at life.
as an american born chinese kid who went to high school in the south bay area of california (roughly 1/3rd chinese, 1/3rd indian, 1/3rd white in the west side of san jose where i'm from), i can vouch that this parenting style produces a much higher incidence of dysfunctional awkward kids than any 'white' parenting style i've seen. actually i think indian parents seem to do it best (they definitely arent strict in the same authoritarian way), though i don't know the details of their general parenting style.
indian parents seem to produce a much more entrepreneurial mindset, while chinese parents generally mostly encourage steady paying high security jobs (like the stereotypical doctor/lawyer/actuary/etc). i dont think chinese parenting is as well suited to american culture as indian or white parenting is.
The mother is from Yale Law and graduated from Harvard, and having enough money so that she could allow her children activities that could not be possibly dreamed of if it was just a typical immigrant that carried little to no money at all. Having this type of money certainly helps, rather than having a poor child who goes into the Asian parenting, telling to get into a good school, gets their dream school, then the parents reneging on their promise by sending him to a state school because of their financial situation.
My roommate went through this type of abuse, as he would practice on the violin constantly during his childhood. One day, he asked if he could be a violinist and his parents scoffed at him, because that doesn't bring money into the household. This type of parenting has a strict mindset in that there are really no other alternatives for the child if s/he cannot produce a "paying" job out of college.
I would say that for parents who have enough money, that this style of parenting would be fine; for others, this style of parenting would actually harm their children because the importance of Networking far outweighs the benefit of actually having high grades.
On January 09 2011 08:46 Krigwin wrote: With a title as racist as that I was expecting this to be some college journalist editorial or something, not a Wall Street Journal article. What a joke.
As someone who is Chinese, I can tell you that while Chinese parents might certainly produce children that are deemed more "successful" by society's standards, it's still not worth it. The amount of neuroses caused by Chinese "parenting" is staggering and almost anyone who was raised by Asian parents can tell you all kinds of horror stories.
Chinese parenting isn't parenting, it's grooming of the child into a human trophy that can be displayed for the good of the family. Chinese parents rob their children of their childhoods and harshly cultivate them (sometimes physically if necessary) with negative reinforcement in pursuit of vicarious success.
as chinese I agree whole heartily, and my mother is the less scary chinese type. T_T
Her argument that 'strict chinese mothers' are better at raising children for the future is based on nothing except stereotypes and her own experience. There's no solid data to support her argument that 'strict mothers' trump western mothers.
What's more aggravating is this,"Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids." Really? I mean maybe in the U.S.A. but as far as I know there are plenty of lazy, unsucessful, and stupid chinese kids in Asia.
On January 09 2011 10:40 potatomash3r wrote: What a load of horse shit.
Her argument that 'strict chinese mothers' are better at raising children for the future is based on nothing except stereotypes and her own experience. There's no solid data to support her argument that 'strict mothers' trump western mothers.
What's more aggravating is this,"Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids." Really? I mean maybe in the U.S.A. but as far as I know there are plenty of lazy, unsucessful, and stupid chinese kids in Asia.
I completely agree with this statement. Coming from a similar household, I can say with experience that the "Asian" way of raising a child as outlined by this article is terrible. I mean sure academics and musical excellence is achieved, but at what cost? Ultimately, I think social skills and general social interactions with normal people is the above cost (not allowed to go on a playdate, or join the school musical: how do they possibly make friends?).
Part of a successful career lies in one's social abilities, for without them how can you do anything in any work environment?
However, despite that fact, the Asian parenting style has merit. It actually does force a work ethic onto a child and creates a sense of responsibility for one's own work, but like all things, there should be MODERATION. The mother in this article is beyond too strict even for Asian parents standards.
EDIT: With more thoughts on the situation and if I was a parent, I'd lean toward a Western style raising of my child, but I think I'd still require my child to always strive for academic excellence (and until high school that basically means all As).
On January 09 2011 10:19 G0dly wrote: terrible article
I knew a kid whose chinese parents got pissed at him for not maintaining perfect grades. It's not that he didn't try - his parents forced him to study and he tried his best, but no matter he couldn't meet their standards. His parents called him stupid, they accused him of trying to disappoint them, they punished him by not letting him go to friends houses, go to movies, etc.
Eventually he straight up hung himself in school.
The best way is to have a balanced approach. Yes, you should establish a good work ethic - teach children to do their homework, to study, to get good grades, but also let them have some fun. Yelling at a child for getting an A- is ridiculous. I'd rather have a child who gets A- or B+ and has an active social life and friends as opposed to an A+ tryhard who studies/plays instruments all day and night.
addendum: in high school my parents didn't even check my grades. They give me complete independence and do not force me to study - I studied on my own and completed work on my own. When I was younger they taught me that learning was its own reward, that I should always try my best, and that it's important not to be lazy. I'm no genius, not valedictorian, but did get accepted into Cornell while still having fun in high school and maintaining an active social life.
There are a lot of kids in my school raised in the manner described in that article, and they hate their lives. They walk into class like zombies because they get 3-4 hours of sleep a night. They'll fight with the teacher over 3 points on a test because they got a 95 instead of a 98 (while I might be sitting in class happy with a 92). Their grades are their lives.
I say fuck that, go out and have some fun, you only fucking live once, you're only a kid once.
That kid was just bad, sorry, or the parents did it wrong. Any kid who actually studies or focuses hard and well will turn out the same way, provided they don't have a mental disability. Any kid. And if he hung himself, that's just giving up.
Why doesn't it work all the time then? Because the kid is not motivated to do it, since he is dreaming about his friends, and what else he could be doing rather than working. That's not called studying. He didn't try as hard as he could, he just didn't try. I have never known a person that sucked so badly that they couldn't grasp a concept if they actually tried.
And I just realized you're not Chinese, so obvious you don't have the same approach, and obviously that's why your kids are or will be, on average, not as successful. It was the whole point of the article...?
I'm an A+ student. I will annoy and bug my teacher if she gives me a 98 instead of a 99. I've done that on several occasions. And I'm perfectly fine with my life. I have friends. I'm up for valedictorian. I'm on several teams, and hopefully captain of one. My grade is my life, but why am I perfectly fine with it?
Because it's fun doing work. It's fun doing work well. I don't understand why or how people can put the wrong answer on a test or whatnot, and be perfectly fine with that.
The point is trying your best when it's obviously not your best. I love people who are trying their best, and then go out and party, drink, or otherwise not study, or study at the last second. Sorry, that's not trying your best. Everyone's best is 100%. Tell someone to study like a freak, the second they get home until they eat, and until they sleep and then write a no bull**** test, and I'll be damned if they don't get above 95%. Especially in high school.
The difference is simple, some parents enforce that perfection is the child's best. Other parents allow them to settle for an obviously fake try-your-hardest best. Can you match the parent with the ethnicity?
On January 09 2011 10:43 IntoTheheart wrote: I just wrote a poorly written commentary on this woman's garbage and e-mailed it to her. Here's her e-mail address:
amy.chua@yale.edu
Curious to see what you wrote to her, mind if we see? or you can just PM me. I kind of wanna write something to her myself
On January 09 2011 10:19 G0dly wrote: terrible article
I knew a kid whose chinese parents got pissed at him for not maintaining perfect grades. It's not that he didn't try - his parents forced him to study and he tried his best, but no matter he couldn't meet their standards. His parents called him stupid, they accused him of trying to disappoint them, they punished him by not letting him go to friends houses, go to movies, etc.
Eventually he straight up hung himself in school.
The best way is to have a balanced approach. Yes, you should establish a good work ethic - teach children to do their homework, to study, to get good grades, but also let them have some fun. Yelling at a child for getting an A- is ridiculous. I'd rather have a child who gets A- or B+ and has an active social life and friends as opposed to an A+ tryhard who studies/plays instruments all day and night.
addendum: in high school my parents didn't even check my grades. They give me complete independence and do not force me to study - I studied on my own and completed work on my own. When I was younger they taught me that learning was its own reward, that I should always try my best, and that it's important not to be lazy. I'm no genius, not valedictorian, but did get accepted into Cornell while still having fun in high school and maintaining an active social life.
There are a lot of kids in my school raised in the manner described in that article, and they hate their lives. They walk into class like zombies because they get 3-4 hours of sleep a night. They'll fight with the teacher over 3 points on a test because they got a 95 instead of a 98 (while I might be sitting in class happy with a 92). Their grades are their lives.
I say fuck that, go out and have some fun, you only fucking live once, you're only a kid once.
That kid was just bad, sorry, or the parents did it wrong. Any kid who actually studies or focuses hard and well will turn out the same way, provided they don't have a mental disability. Any kid. And if he hung himself, that's just giving up.
Why doesn't it work all the time then? Because the kid is not motivated to do it, since he is dreaming about his friends, and what else he could be doing rather than working. That's not called studying. He didn't try as hard as he could, he just didn't try. I have never known a person that sucked so badly that they couldn't grasp a concept if they actually tried.
And I just realized you're not Chinese, so obvious you don't have the same approach, and obviously that's why your kids are or will be, on average, not as successful. It was the whole point of the article...?
Not cool dude. Someone commits suicide, you don't know all the details, and you blame the kid for being 'bad'? The parents "did it wrong?" You haven't actually invalidated the point of the person you quoted although I'm sure you did a good job at upsetting him if that was your goal.
I also completely disagree that "Any kid who actually studies or focuses hard and well will turn out the same way, provided they don't have a mental disability" unless you think that most kids have mental disabilities. You are lecturing on a topic you clearly don't understand.
What Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you're good at it. To get good at anything you have to work, and children on their own never want to work, which is why it is crucial to override their preferences.
MAN, EATING FOOD JUST WASN'T FUN UNTIL I TRAINED FOR 3 YEARS IN TEXAS AND BECAME THE WORLD CHAMP IN ALL EATING COMPETITIONS, THEN I COULD FINALLY ENJOY IT.
They're just raising cocky assholes with an unearned sense of entitlement, like the kids who talk trash and get shit on in competitive counter-strike.
If a Chinese child gets a B—which would never happen—there would first be a screaming, hair-tearing explosion. The devastated Chinese mother would then get dozens, maybe hundreds of practice tests and work through them with her child for as long as it takes to get the grade up to an A.
--which would never happen--
You can really tell that the woman who wrote this is an extremely humble person who comes from a perfect background of completely humble and communative people. [/sarcasm]
Also the supposed 'math whizzes', aren't as good as they look, they might be able to multiply numbers with their imaginary abacuses, but most of them never have the sheer abstract understanding or originality that drove Newton to develop Calculus or Euler to discover e.
On January 09 2011 10:43 IntoTheheart wrote: I just wrote a poorly written commentary on this woman's garbage and e-mailed it to her. Here's her e-mail address:
amy.chua@yale.edu
Curious to see what you wrote to her, mind if we see? or you can just PM me. I kind of wanna write something to her myself
I wouldn't recommended emailing her with disagreements. Pretty sure the article is intentional controversial in either case, and its obvious there are many disagreements to what she wrote. Spamming YOU'RE WRONG isn't going to help whatever you guys are trying to accomplish.
EDIT: Just realized if you applied the article to starcraft you basically get progamer houses lol
It boggles my mind that people are even defending this psycho crazy monster. What is the point of living like that? Why would you WANT your kid to be so sheltered?
I'm Asian too and I even lived in an Asian country before moving to France.
I can say that mothers like this woman exist but they are just 2-3 % of Asian women, most parents are much nicer towards their children.
My mother did force me to study when I was young (< 11yo), but after that it's over. I don't need her to be good at school and she couldn't force me to do anything because I destroyed half the house each time she did it lol.
On January 09 2011 10:19 G0dly wrote: terrible article
I knew a kid whose chinese parents got pissed at him for not maintaining perfect grades. It's not that he didn't try - his parents forced him to study and he tried his best, but no matter he couldn't meet their standards. His parents called him stupid, they accused him of trying to disappoint them, they punished him by not letting him go to friends houses, go to movies, etc.
Eventually he straight up hung himself in school.
The best way is to have a balanced approach. Yes, you should establish a good work ethic - teach children to do their homework, to study, to get good grades, but also let them have some fun. Yelling at a child for getting an A- is ridiculous. I'd rather have a child who gets A- or B+ and has an active social life and friends as opposed to an A+ tryhard who studies/plays instruments all day and night.
addendum: in high school my parents didn't even check my grades. They give me complete independence and do not force me to study - I studied on my own and completed work on my own. When I was younger they taught me that learning was its own reward, that I should always try my best, and that it's important not to be lazy. I'm no genius, not valedictorian, but did get accepted into Cornell while still having fun in high school and maintaining an active social life.
There are a lot of kids in my school raised in the manner described in that article, and they hate their lives. They walk into class like zombies because they get 3-4 hours of sleep a night. They'll fight with the teacher over 3 points on a test because they got a 95 instead of a 98 (while I might be sitting in class happy with a 92). Their grades are their lives.
I say fuck that, go out and have some fun, you only fucking live once, you're only a kid once.
That kid was just bad, sorry, or the parents did it wrong. Any kid who actually studies or focuses hard and well will turn out the same way, provided they don't have a mental disability. Any kid. And if he hung himself, that's just giving up.
Why doesn't it work all the time then? Because the kid is not motivated to do it, since he is dreaming about his friends, and what else he could be doing rather than working. That's not called studying. He didn't try as hard as he could, he just didn't try. I have never known a person that sucked so badly that they couldn't grasp a concept if they actually tried.
And I just realized you're not Chinese, so obvious you don't have the same approach, and obviously that's why your kids are or will be, on average, not as successful. It was the whole point of the article...?
I'm an A+ student. I will annoy and bug my teacher if she gives me a 98 instead of a 99. I've done that on several occasions. And I'm perfectly fine with my life. I have friends. I'm up for valedictorian. I'm on several teams, and hopefully captain of one. My grade is my life, but why am I perfectly fine with it?
Because it's fun doing work. It's fun doing work well. I don't understand why or how people can put the wrong answer on a test or whatnot, and be perfectly fine with that.
The point is trying your best when it's obviously not your best. I love people who are trying their best, and then go out and party, drink, or otherwise not study, or study at the last second. Sorry, that's not trying your best. Everyone's best is 100%. Tell someone to study like a freak, the second they get home until they eat, and until they sleep and then write a no bull**** test, and I'll be damned if they don't get above 95%. Especially in high school.
The difference is simple, some parents enforce that perfection is the child's best. Other parents allow them to settle for an obviously fake try-your-hardest best. Can you match the parent with the ethnicity?
I'm Chinese, my parents tried the Asian method of raising me, I hardcore rebelled against more or less everything they said. I'm lazy, unmotivated, and procrastinate a lot, but hey I attend an Ivy League school anyway. The arrogance of the above statement is ridiculous. The fundamental problem in the Asian way of raising a child is pride and "appearances." Sure the ideas are solid, work hard, do well, but the ultimate goal behind the Chinese style of parenting is not just pushing the child to his or her own limit, but also to attain degrees of honor.
For example, the fool I'm quoting, listen to his self-righteous arrogance about getting A+s, his preening about being in line for valedictorian, his defense of this "Asian style" parenting. It's all because of some illusion that he's better than others. 50 years down the line, who the fuck cares if you were valedictorian of your high school. I was in the top 10 of my class and I go to an Ivy League school but now in college, I'm taking classes with thousands of high school valedictorians, thousands of athletes that were captains of this and that, thousands of presidents, editors in chiefs, salutatorians, national merit finalists, perfect SAT score kids, and at my school, none of them are all that special.
Let me start off by saying that this style of parenting is absolutely unacceptable in every conceivable way.
First of all, a response to the article as a whole. The worst way to get someone to be good at something is to make that person despise it. I have hardly ever heard of any great pianist, violinist, mathematician, physicist, writer, progamer, ... who doesn't enjoy what he does. Children who don't enjoy an activity will try as hard as they can to find a way to please their parents while putting minimal effort in the activity itself. It's okay to tell your kids to play the piano, but it's definitely not okay to threaten to donate their dollhouses to the Salvation Army when they make it clear they don't want to do so. The article includes "What Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you're good at it" when the truth is "you won't be good at anything until it's fun." Does forcing a child into an activity make him enjoy it?
Why not let children find what they're good at? The existence of this parenting technique takes a big step in the direction of a world composed of not-very-great pianists who have no idea what they can do well. Being intolerant of people who can't play the piano is absolutely ludicrous, especially if you can't play the piano very well yourself.
Chinese parents demand perfect grades because they believe that their child can get them. If their child doesn't get them, the Chinese parent assumes it's because the child didn't work hard enough. That's why the solution to substandard performance is always to excoriate, punish and shame the child.
For now, let's ignore the fact that this selection, as well as the entire paragraph in which it is contained, has poor grammar (which the author herself would probably deem unacceptable if her children were to use it). Demanding children to get perfect grades simply because they can boggles and perplexes me. Parents need to realize that grades and learning are pretty much unrelated goals. I wonder if the author would be happy being punished for everything she didn't try in.
Third, Chinese parents believe that they know what is best for their children and therefore override all of their children's own desires and preferences. That's why Chinese daughters can't have boyfriends in high school and why Chinese kids can't go to sleepaway camp. It's also why no Chinese kid would ever dare say to their mother, "I got a part in the school play! I'm Villager Number Six. I'll have to stay after school for rehearsal every day from 3:00 to 7:00, and I'll also need a ride on weekends." God help any Chinese kid who tried that one.
These parents have absolutely no idea what's best for their children. (Note how I avoid the term "Chinese parents" because I am convinced that, for the most part, the Chinese raise their kids in a style orders of magnitude better than the style described in this article.) Having a part in the school play is definitely not as evil as the author seems to think it is, and parents should definitely support their children in such an endeavor rather than, say, telling them to play piano instead. Speaking of which, how is playing piano superior to acting?
Don't get me wrong: It's not that Chinese parents don't care about their children. Just the opposite. They would give up anything for their children. It's just an entirely different parenting model.
This makes me cry. If you call insulting your children, threatening to not feed them, and forbidding them to go to the bathroom in the middle of a piano lesson "care," then I really care for this article.
(By the way, the author writes "That's why the solution to substandard performance is always to excoriate, punish and shame the child," pretty much "insulting your children is a good thing to do," and later, "I told her [Lulu] to stop being lazy, cowardly, self-indulgent and pathetic."
But then she gets all defensive when she is accused of insulting her children - something she very clearly did: "He told me to stop insulting Lulu—which I wasn't even doing, I was just motivating her.")
Western parents try to respect their children's individuality, encouraging them to pursue their true passions, supporting their choices, and providing positive reinforcement and a nurturing environment. By contrast, the Chinese believe that the best way to protect their children is by preparing them for the future, letting them see what they're capable of, and arming them with skills, work habits and inner confidence that no one can ever take away.
I see no way in which this style of parenting prepares children for the future.
Great actors aren't great because their parents told them they couldn't perform in school plays. As for "skills," the only skills this seems to give the child are the ability to get good grades and the ability to get a good score on the SAT. Grades and learning, again, are pretty much unrelated, which causes us to doubt the importance of these "skills." As for "work habits," this is really only valid if "work habits" means "doing exactly what you are told and nothing else." And insulting your children and calling them worthless is the worst way to instill "confidence" in them.
The article often refers to this system of parenting (i.e. child abuse) as "different." However, I think I have made it clear that we should really be using the word "worse."
I feel the methods are a bit extreme but most of the logic is sound. One important aspect of parenting is leading by example. It is very important that as a parent you are in complete control of your emotions. If you yell it should be to provoke the desired response to communicate the fact that you are serious not because your are actually angry or frustrated. I can tell you that I've watched my own son be disobedient as hell towards his mother and grandmothers because they are so soft on him. They've even gotten on my case even for being to hard on him even though I am really the only source of discipline in his life. I definitely feel justified (even though it's hard as hell) after my son starts to throw a fit or cry because he didn't get his way, and I send him straight to the corner for only 3 minutes. To have him come back mellow, attentive to my words, and then we can resume happy activities. I do disagree with forcing specific instruments or activities. I want my son to be involved in sports for his health and well being as well as healthy competition. I don't care what sport it is, up to him. Golf, football, tennis, anything that involves competition and requires a complex set of skill to master is great. As far as music, if he does take interest in any instrument I will see that he follows through and makes every reasonable attempt to master it. Not because I want to show him off but because I was raised with a total lack of discipline in my childhood and I really want whats best for him and to be the parent I wish I had and needed badly. I think about how many things I half did half way and wonder what would have come of it if I'd followed through and had someone pushing me towards greatness. I think most parents are too weak to do the right and more difficult thing, which is be in charge. I see kids twice my sons age acting like they are having a psychotic episode in public, screaming, stomping and turning red when they don't get there way. Manipulating their own parents. I feel bad for the kids that they have such poor parenting to benefit from. If my son does that it will be the 1st and last time. I think it's also important to explain to your children the reason you are doing things and try to make them understand your point of view. Simply restricting them from sleeping over is bad. Discipline is best when it's self discipline. When your kids know they are not supposed to do something because it is bad for their own well being. If they are raised right you don't have to lock them up, they will keep themselves out of trouble. Not out of fear of punishment but out of intelligence. A friend of mine who is a father of 6 once told me some great advice "If you raise your kids right you'll only ever have to hit them once or twice in a decade" I know people are going to be like OMG abuse. But one time I put my son in the corner and he continued throwing a fit and refused to comply. I smacked him once on his butt and made him do his time in the corner. I almost cried myself I felt so bad, but it was the right thing to do. It's not what either of us wants, but it's what is needed. That was over a year ago and I've never had to even threaten him since with any physical discipline. It ends with the corner every time. I very rarely even have to send him to the corner anymore. When he gets older I will probably replace the corner with pushups and mile runs as a form of discipline. I have a brother who is 7 years younger than me. When he got into high school he talked to me about a lot of kids getting into drugs and stuff. I gave him one piece of advice. "Before you put anything in your body, make an informed decision. Let someone else go first and look at them in an hour before you decide" He's come back and thanked me on more than one occasion for that advice. That's what I think good parenting is, not restricting your kids to much. Instead giving them the tools and guidance to make sound decisions on their own.
On January 09 2011 10:02 MetalMarine wrote: I am going to fucking give everyone who posts in this thread $5 if her daughters become pornstars. Please quote me on this
At least daddy's little girl will be a star in something \:D/
On January 09 2011 10:02 MetalMarine wrote: I am going to fucking give everyone who posts in this thread $5 if her daughters become pornstars. Please quote me on this
At least daddy's little girl will be a star in something \:D/
On January 09 2011 10:08 j0k3r wrote: Shiet my parents weren't that harsh but I know friends in college now whose parents still treat them that way. Honestly it's degrading being forced into a field of study which you are not interested (medicine, computer engineering etc.) and degrading to be locked in your house as a college student if you did poorly on an exam (i.e. a B). The "Chinese mother" method of parenting is not in the best interest of the kid. I was raised with mixed parenting strategies - I did attend academic enrichment classes by force, but I also was given a high degree of freedom later in high school and encouraged to pursue creative activities such as writing. I did exceptionally well on the SATs and got into a great university without the sort of enslavement many of my friends endured. I could tell they loathed the lifetime of restriction and over-discipline while maintaining some semblance of external normality. But I also know they're not going to grow up as balanced people.
I have no idea where you get the idea that you need to be "balanced" to be successful. Go read up on Facebook's founder, he sucks at people skills ironically.
Define success. It's all in the eye of the beholder. Sucking at people skills isn't something to be promoted whatever your definition of success is.
Ok so a Chinese mother writes an article about how awsome Chinese mothers are. It's kinda hard to take such an article serious regardless if it is true or not.
Most of my asian friends at university had horrific work ethics because of this type of upbringing. They put in stupendous hours of solo work, and there was no noticeable improvement in their grades compared to us 'westerners'. They never socialised because they were working all the time, and two I knew were being treated for depression by their doctors but refused to go home or tell their parents because they were terrified of being labelled as a failure. Failure is something that will occur in real life, it's not possible to be perfect at everything you do and so this type of upbringing was crushing these guys' self esteem. Whilst I agree that westerners can sometimes be too lax with their children I heartily disapprove of this draconian parental model the author suggests.
On January 09 2011 10:25 Sablar wrote: Are there any psychological issues that so called chinese mothers DON'T give their children? Just wondering.. It would be very nice to see something to back up the statements that this kind of parental style leads to various problems.
Heh, at least I know I am psychologically screwed up and socially inept. Not an exactly impartial viewpoint here though, since while I do really like my parents I really disagree with the method of upbringing they chose.
On January 09 2011 10:25 Sablar wrote: Are there any psychological issues that so called chinese mothers DON'T give their children? Just wondering.. It would be very nice to see something to back up the statements that this kind of parental style leads to various problems.
Heh, at least I know I am psychologically screwed up and socially inept. Not an exactly impartial viewpoint here though, since while I do really like my parents I really disagree with the method of upbringing they chose.
Next generation of Asian kids will be the biggest drug addicted twinkies in existence.
This article makes me sick, and the information within is not only wrong, but harmful in the same way that racism and intolerance is harmful.
I am not asian, however a huge percentage of the people I interact with and the girls that I have dated, are. Not only did many of them have incredibly stifled and unhappy childhoods, some of them do not even speak to their overbearing parents in adulthood, and many of them rebelled to the point where they dropped out of college and became ostracized from their families. Suicide is a common story among their friends and relatives. The children who do grow up successfully are so insulated from reality that they don't have the proper social faculties to know right from wrong, or judge whether somebody is lying to them. In extreme cases, they become very cold and loveless people.
Other cultures mess up their kids too, but strict asian parenting is by far the style that I have seen cause the most emotional and mental damage to its children. It's been proven time and again, and reinforced by every parenting expert, that you need to let your child socialize, make their own decisions, and learn from their own mistakes.
Every paragraph I read of this article just makes me more and more pissed off. Do not think for a second that Asian parents are like this. Only about 1% of them are, and they raise terrible children. Asian parents like these are something that Asians as a whole are very ashamed of. Now this bitch comes out with her head up her ass and tells everyone that she is superior? Who the hell is she trying to impress? All she's doing is creating a bad image for Asians as a whole. I am going to email her and tell her to go kill herself, because I am PISSED OFF.
EDIT: Decided not to email her. Signed her up for gay porn instead.
Oh.. I thought this was a satirical piece. She's actually serious? I'm Asian and while there are a few good things about "Asian" parenting, most of those parents take it too far and it becomes detrimental once the child doesn't have to listen to the parent.
It's definitely a very fine line. Not at all the way the author describes it.
Chinese guy here... and some of the things are true and some things are heavily exaggerated. The article makes it sounds like children cannot have motivation or succeed on their own. That's completely ridiculous and stupid. Furthermore, she makes it sounds like parents are the only reason children succeed. Again, ridiculous.
The author is referring to immigrant "Chinese mothers"--who aren't westernized. The issue with this fact is that as these parents are generally unfamiliar with the education system in the United States, they can often do very little except push their children to succeed. I know tons of people who do poorly in school and have parents that fit this stereotype very well. Again, if the children aren't inclined to do well, any amount of abuse is absolutely useless.
The truly successful students, asian or not, create goals for themselves and achieve them. Parents become the support, not the commanders of their lives and academics.
On January 09 2011 10:19 G0dly wrote: terrible article
I knew a kid whose chinese parents got pissed at him for not maintaining perfect grades. It's not that he didn't try - his parents forced him to study and he tried his best, but no matter he couldn't meet their standards. His parents called him stupid, they accused him of trying to disappoint them, they punished him by not letting him go to friends houses, go to movies, etc.
Eventually he straight up hung himself in school.
The best way is to have a balanced approach. Yes, you should establish a good work ethic - teach children to do their homework, to study, to get good grades, but also let them have some fun. Yelling at a child for getting an A- is ridiculous. I'd rather have a child who gets A- or B+ and has an active social life and friends as opposed to an A+ tryhard who studies/plays instruments all day and night.
addendum: in high school my parents didn't even check my grades. They give me complete independence and do not force me to study - I studied on my own and completed work on my own. When I was younger they taught me that learning was its own reward, that I should always try my best, and that it's important not to be lazy. I'm no genius, not valedictorian, but did get accepted into Cornell while still having fun in high school and maintaining an active social life.
There are a lot of kids in my school raised in the manner described in that article, and they hate their lives. They walk into class like zombies because they get 3-4 hours of sleep a night. They'll fight with the teacher over 3 points on a test because they got a 95 instead of a 98 (while I might be sitting in class happy with a 92). Their grades are their lives.
I say fuck that, go out and have some fun, you only fucking live once, you're only a kid once.
That kid was just bad, sorry, or the parents did it wrong. Any kid who actually studies or focuses hard and well will turn out the same way, provided they don't have a mental disability. Any kid. And if he hung himself, that's just giving up.
Why doesn't it work all the time then? Because the kid is not motivated to do it, since he is dreaming about his friends, and what else he could be doing rather than working. That's not called studying. He didn't try as hard as he could, he just didn't try. I have never known a person that sucked so badly that they couldn't grasp a concept if they actually tried.
And I just realized you're not Chinese, so obvious you don't have the same approach, and obviously that's why your kids are or will be, on average, not as successful. It was the whole point of the article...?
I'm an A+ student. I will annoy and bug my teacher if she gives me a 98 instead of a 99. I've done that on several occasions. And I'm perfectly fine with my life. I have friends. I'm up for valedictorian. I'm on several teams, and hopefully captain of one. My grade is my life, but why am I perfectly fine with it?
Because it's fun doing work. It's fun doing work well. I don't understand why or how people can put the wrong answer on a test or whatnot, and be perfectly fine with that.
The point is trying your best when it's obviously not your best. I love people who are trying their best, and then go out and party, drink, or otherwise not study, or study at the last second. Sorry, that's not trying your best. Everyone's best is 100%. Tell someone to study like a freak, the second they get home until they eat, and until they sleep and then write a no bull**** test, and I'll be damned if they don't get above 95%. Especially in high school.
The difference is simple, some parents enforce that perfection is the child's best. Other parents allow them to settle for an obviously fake try-your-hardest best. Can you match the parent with the ethnicity?
i am chinese though
lololololololol
edit
difference is like this. A kid i know (he's asian) was forced to take all ap classes because his parents want him to get into an ivy league school. He takes all ap classes. Ap chem, ap english, ap us history, ap calc, ap spanish etc. However, he hated english, spanish, and history. He didn't want to take them. He likes science. His parents don't give a shit. "the more ap's you have, the better chance you will get into yale/harvard/princeton/brown/dartmouth etc." they tell him. Whole year he bitches about how little sleep he gets, how little free time he has, how he isn't even interested in the class etc.
Like him, I enjoy science as well. Unlike him, my parents didn't pressure me to take all ap's, so I ap calc and ap physics, challenging myself on subjects I liked and taking the "regular" courses in other subjects. the AP classes were interesting, I enjoyed them, learned a lot, did well on exams, and I still had time left over for fun.
guess what? the both of us are in ivy league institutions. In the end all that time he spent on subjects he hated didn't fucking matter.
so ye i can match the ethnicity, I am the ethnicity, but I'm not like you - don't assume all chinese people are like you. I took classes that I was interested in and challenged myself in those classes not because my parents told me to, not because of some desire to please my parents or to become "perfect asian" but because I genuinely like those subjects. Yeah it's true I could have done better. It's true that I was in the 95th percentile in my class as opposed to 99% (since ap courses are weighted higher, people who take more ap's will have higher rank) but I honestly didn't give a shit. While other kids were studying on saturday afternoons, I was hanging out with friends, and I wouldn't trade those saturdays with friends for 4% ranking even if I could
giving support in academics by pushing your children to study more than they would by themselves - perfectly acceptable.
giving them no choice in life - stupid. No sleepovers, no extracurricular choice, no nothing? Choose their instruments and entire lives for them? God damn what a crazy bitch
I think her article is pretty accurate for Chinese mothers living in China due to the overpopulation issues. If you're not successful, (e.g. get into a good university), you're pretty much fucked for life unless your parents are already loaded and can send you off to some foreign school to get a degree. If she thinks this is good parenting advice for anyone living in the Western world, she's batshit crazy.
On January 09 2011 11:41 teamsolid wrote: I think her article is pretty accurate for Chinese mothers living in China due to the overpopulation issues. If you're not successful, (e.g. get into a good university), you're pretty much fucked for life unless your parents are already loaded and can send you off to some foreign school to get a degree. If she thinks this is good parenting advice for anyone living in the Western world, she's batshit crazy.
She's a professor at Yale comparing "western" parents to "chinese parents"-- it's about parents in the U.S. You're right that her point is batshit crazy though--and is ironically out of touch with most actual Chinese parents.
Hello! I am a 2nd year physics student attending Dartmouth College and a proud son of Chinese parents. However, I believe your article describing the merits of the strict "Chinese mother" style lacks perspective of the negative effects of such parenting. I attended high school at The Harker School of San Jose, CA, a school at which the demographics are split roughly 1/3rd Chinese, 1/3rd Indian, 1/3rd White (with a few token black and hispanic kids). The school, being a highly competitive preparatory school, understandably attracts many 'involved' parents from the upper-middle class, parents with the fervent hope that their children will "succeed." However, I argue that the "Chinese" definition of success is less beneficial to a child's actual success in the American workforce than either the "White" and "Indian" definitions of success, as reflected by the pressures exerted by the respective parent groups.
From how I understand it, the Chinese parenting style is this: make sure your child gets perfect grades, make sure your child masters at least one sport (often tennis or badminton) one instrument (piano or violin, of course), and encourage a high-security well-paying job to minimize risk of "failure". From this perspective, law, medicine, engineering, and similar career tracks are optimal: solid, stable six-figure salaries (at this point, if you disagree, you may be considering your own style. However, be wary that what I describe is the average style, not yours. Individual anecdotes are much less important than the average). The 'carrot' often emphasized is security: one cannot afford nice things without a six figure salary, and all ambition, especially unprofitable artistic or altruistic ambition, should be put on the back-burner until one is secure and comfortable.
I disagree.
For this country's numerous problems to be solved, we need innovative entrepreneurs and self-sacrificing politicians, not more cogs in the medical and legal machines. Being a law professor, I'm sure you'd object to the latter phrase, since there are clearly many altruistic and forward-looking practitioners of law. However, again, Chinese parents tend to emphasize security. That means cushy corporate jobs, patent law, and wholly selfish pursuits. While in your head you may be thinking you are encouraging perfectionist parents who will produce the next generation's leaders and heroes, you are not. You are encouraging perfectionist parents who will produce soulless six-figure generating machines. As for the ambitious, less-profitable pursuits that Chinese parents often tell their children to relegate to the distant future, I will remind you that luxury breeds an appetite for more luxury, and such ambitions are often forgotten - if you worked in the corporate sector rather than academia, I'm sure you'd agree.
Furthermore, Chinese parents, as your article so enthusiastically reflects, strongly prioritize grades (and of course, standardized test scores). This implies complicity with the current education system of the United States, which I believe to be more flawed than you may realize. Standardization of curriculum through No Child Left Behind and AP courses, a chinese-mom favorite, emphasizes a rigid, unquestioning style of thought that is better suited for answering multiple choice questions than answering queries of "why is this important?" or "how do we fix this?" or "am I being taught the complete picture?" To the latter-most question, the answer is definitely "no" for AP US History, a course I'm sure your two daughters have taken (or maybe IB?). In fact, due to my experiences with the American education system, I am strongly tempted to home-school my future children, with the only deterrent being my fear of improper development of social skills.
Speaking of social skills, children of Chinese parents tend to have the worst on average. Ask any student from high school, "which kids are most awkward, the Asians, the Indians, or the Whites?" I guarantee you the answer will be Asians. Why is that? Because their time is monopolized by their parents and they lack the time to find out how the rest of society works. Why do white parents allow frequent sleepovers, socializing, and (gasp) partying? Because it allows their children to bond with other children in style most natural to American kids. You may disapprove of the partygoers and pleasure-seekers, but if your kids can't get along with them in college, then they will lack a huge part of the picture of America. And those partygoers and pleasure-seekers will constitute an undeniable chunk of the future workforce. You don't think that the frat kids all became homeless, do you?
Finally, motivation: Chinese children's motivation is rarely internal. After all, who can internalize a desire to succeed when your mother is already screaming at you to do so? The Catholic schoolgirl effect, a colloquial term for the sudden outburst of sexual activity after 18 years of sexual repression among, well, Catholic schoolgirls, manifests analogously in the Chinese population: if a Chinese parent suddenly decides "well my child achieved a 4.0 (unweighted of course), outstanding extracurriculars, and is pretty much perfect, I bet he/she will do fine in college without my help," I can guarantee you that that parent's child will not get a 4.0 in college. Nor a 3.5. Perhaps not even a 3.0. It is said that a mother's voice will always stay with a child: however, in the case of Chinese children, most resent that voice and will ignore it unless the mother is actually present (or over the phone continuing to scream). Again, if you disagree, citing personal evidence, I remind you that anecdotal evidence is worthless. What you are advocating is not a replica of your successful experience with your daughters, but a general culture of strictness and high expectations.
As for my personal experience: my Chinese parents are not Chinese parents in the way you have described. They allowed me to quit piano in 3rd grade, they were patently hands-off for my entire high school experience, and they have trusted my judgment for (most) every choice I have made (of course dispensing useful advice along the way). They know that I've partied and imbibed alcohol in college, and they're fine with it, because they trust me to be responsible. And I am glad for it, my ambitions are all my own, and I am proudly on a track to not a six figure salary, but continuing happiness.
Sincerely, and with the approval of my Chinese parents, TUNAAAAAAAA
On January 09 2011 11:41 teamsolid wrote: I think her article is pretty accurate for Chinese mothers living in China due to the overpopulation issues. If you're not successful, (e.g. get into a good university), you're pretty much fucked for life unless your parents are already loaded and can send you off to some foreign school to get a degree. If she thinks this is good parenting advice for anyone living in the Western world, she's batshit crazy.
She's a professor at Yale comparing "western" parents to "chinese parents"-- it's about parents in the U.S. You're right that her point is batshit crazy though--and is ironically out of touch with most actual Chinese parents.
I know, I didn't really even read the whole article beyond the first few paragraphs. Just saying, her ideas really only apply if they were comparing to actual parents living in China. It's just insane otherwise.
I kinda wonder what I'd have turned out like if my parents had been more strict on me.
I was the kid who never put in any effort, but always got 85 or so. I could have gotten 95's - 100's, but I was never pushed. Everyone thought my marks were just fine, so I kept sleepwalking my way through school. Never really had any "study hard" or "work hard" mindset put into me.
The last example in the article is at one of the extremes. I don't think going that far is a good idea, even if it turned out ok there. But pushing your children to try harder is a fantastic idea. Even if they're doing great, they can always do better. Restricting their social life I don't agree with, but a drive to succeed and a good work ethic, along with the idea of pushing yourself to attain success, are great.
"Chinese mothers" wanting the absolute best is admirable, as is the time they'll put in to get help their kids get it. I just think the extremes they go to are a little to much for today's society.
On January 09 2011 11:47 SpiritoftheTunA wrote: sent to that punk:
Dear Professor Chua:
Hello! I am a 2nd year physics student attending Dartmouth College and a proud son of Chinese parents. However, I believe your article describing the merits of the strict "Chinese mother" style lacks perspective of the negative effects of such parenting. I attended high school at The Harker School of San Jose, CA, a school at which the demographics are split roughly 1/3rd Chinese, 1/3rd Indian, 1/3rd White (with a few token black and hispanic kids). The school, being a highly competitive preparatory school, understandably attracts many 'involved' parents from the upper-middle class, parents with the fervent hope that their children will "succeed." However, I argue that the "Chinese" definition of success is less beneficial to a child's actual success in the American workforce than either the "White" and "Indian" definitions of success, as reflected by the pressures exerted by the respective parent groups.
From how I understand it, the Chinese parenting style is this: make sure your child gets perfect grades, make sure your child masters at least one sport (often tennis or badminton) one instrument (piano or violin, of course), and encourage a high-security well-paying job to minimize risk of "failure". From this perspective, law, medicine, engineering, and similar career tracks are optimal: solid, stable six-figure salaries (at this point, if you disagree, you may be considering your own style. However, be wary that what I describe is the average style, not yours. Individual anecdotes are much less important than the average). The 'carrot' often emphasized is security: one cannot afford nice things without a six figure salary, and all ambition, especially unprofitable artistic or altruistic ambition, should be put on the back-burner until one is secure and comfortable.
I disagree.
For this country's numerous problems to be solved, we need innovative entrepreneurs and self-sacrificing politicians, not more cogs in the medical and legal machines. Being a law professor, I'm sure you'd object to the latter phrase, since there are clearly many altruistic and forward-looking practitioners of law. However, again, Chinese parents tend to emphasize security. That means cushy corporate jobs, patent law, and wholly selfish pursuits. While in your head you may be thinking you are encouraging perfectionist parents who will produce the next generation's leaders and heroes, you are not. You are encouraging perfectionist parents who will produce soulless six-figure generating machines. As for the ambitious, less-profitable pursuits that Chinese parents often tell their children to relegate to the distant future, I will remind you that luxury breeds an appetite for more luxury, and such ambitions are often forgotten - if you worked in the corporate sector rather than academia, I'm sure you'd agree.
Furthermore, Chinese parents, as your article so enthusiastically reflects, strongly prioritize grades (and of course, standardized test scores). This implies complicity with the current education system of the United States, which I believe to be more flawed than you may realize. Standardization of curriculum through No Child Left Behind and AP courses, a chinese-mom favorite, emphasizes a rigid, unquestioning style of thought that is better suited for answering multiple choice questions than answering queries of "why is this important?" or "how do we fix this?" or "am I being taught the complete picture?" To the latter-most question, the answer is definitely "no" for AP US History, a course I'm sure your two daughters have taken (or maybe IB?). In fact, due to my experiences with the American education system, I am strongly tempted to home-school my future children, with the only deterrent being my fear of improper development of social skills.
Speaking of social skills, children of Chinese parents tend to have the worst on average. Ask any student from high school, "which kids are most awkward, the Asians, the Indians, or the Whites?" I guarantee you the answer will be Asians. Why is that? Because their time is monopolized by their parents and they lack the time to find out how the rest of society works. Why do white parents allow frequent sleepovers, socializing, and (gasp) partying? Because it allows their children to bond with other children in style most natural to American kids. You may disapprove of the partygoers and pleasure-seekers, but if your kids can't get along with them in college, then they will lack a huge part of the picture of America. And those partygoers and pleasure-seekers will constitute an undeniable chunk of the future workforce. You don't think that the frat kids all became homeless, do you?
Finally, motivation: Chinese children's motivation is rarely internal. After all, who can internalize a desire to succeed when your mother is already screaming at you to do so? The Catholic schoolgirl effect, a colloquial term for the sudden outburst of sexual activity after 18 years of sexual repression among, well, Catholic schoolgirls, manifests analogously in the Chinese population: if a Chinese parent suddenly decides "well my child achieved a 4.0 (unweighted of course), outstanding extracurriculars, and is pretty much perfect, I bet he/she will do fine in college without my help," I can guarantee you that that parent's child will not get a 4.0 in college. Nor a 3.5. Perhaps not even a 3.0. It is said that a mother's voice will always stay with a child: however, in the case of Chinese children, most resent that voice and will ignore it unless the mother is actually present (or over the phone continuing to scream). Again, if you disagree, citing personal evidence, I remind you that anecdotal evidence is worthless. What you are advocating is not a replica of your successful experience with your daughters, but a general culture of strictness and high expectations.
As for my personal experience: my Chinese parents are not Chinese parents in the way you have described. They allowed me to quit piano in 3rd grade, they were patently hands-off for my entire high school experience, and they have trusted my judgment for (most) every choice I have made (of course dispensing useful advice along the way). They know that I've partied and imbibed alcohol in college, and they're fine with it, because they trust me to be responsible. And I am glad for it, my ambitions are all my own, and I am proudly on a track to not a six figure salary, but continuing happiness.
Sincerely, and with the approval of my Chinese parents, TUNAAAAAAAA
reposting because i spent a decent amount of effort on this and i hate being the last post on a page ;____;
Asian children tend to be superior than western counterparts due to Asian parents and the way they teach things.
That's why pretty much all the modern inventions and advancement in humanity came from China, Korea, or Japan, right?
Oh wait...
Having strong worth ethics does not always link to being brilliant and imaginative. If anything, Asian style of teaching tend to -discourage- creative thinking.
On January 09 2011 08:46 Krigwin wrote: With a title as racist as that I was expecting this to be some college journalist editorial or something, not a Wall Street Journal article. What a joke.
As someone who is Chinese, I can tell you that while Chinese parents might certainly produce children that are deemed more "successful" by society's standards, it's still not worth it. The amount of neuroses caused by Chinese "parenting" is staggering and almost anyone who was raised by Asian parents can tell you all kinds of horror stories.
Chinese parenting isn't parenting, it's grooming of the child into a human trophy that can be displayed for the good of the family. Chinese parents rob their children of their childhoods and harshly cultivate them (sometimes physically if necessary) with negative reinforcement in pursuit of vicarious success.
Quoted for truth. Although nowadays most kids don't have idea childhoods, as a CBC I can only give anecdotal evidence. That said, personally speaking I don't know a *single* person of Asian descent who hasn't had issues that solely came from Asian parenting. Your third paragraph sums it up beautifully, since the parents want a nice overachieving kid that they can brag to everyone else about, gives them good face, and can support them when they grow old.
Chinese mothers are superior insofar as we assume that utility is most valuable. Everything else is thereby sacrificed before work because work produces things useful, such as money. The methods in the article are clearly effective in producing "successful" (useful) people in the aforementioned sense, but are they effective in cultivating creative geniuses? Under the surface this is really just a question of how we define utility and the extent to which we value it.
Fixing lacking social skills is much easier than breeding intelligence. My parents are Chinese, and they've been hands-off and impersonal; however, when I look around at other college students, there are those more dedicated, hard-working, and intelligent. How am I supposed to catch up?
Studying and socializing are two skills crucial to success, and I can agree that both are necessary to live a proper life. But don't you think it's easier to practice socializing when you're in college than to practice studying all over again? Right now (as a high school "failure"), I'm trying as hard as I can to study; it takes hard work and dedication, both of which I must generate without parents breathing down my throat. Where's the motivation? I'd gladly sacrifice 15 years of childhood and "social skills" for those studying habits now, where I would have a lot more fun learning socialization rather than studying. I'm positive most human being don't have the dedication to relearn learning.
On January 09 2011 12:04 mIniAtURe wrote: Fixing lacking social skills is much easier than breeding intelligence. My parents are Chinese, and they've been hands-off and impersonal; however, when I look around at other college students, there are those more dedicated, hard-working, and intelligent. How am I supposed to catch up?
Studying and socializing are two skills crucial to success, and I can agree that both are necessary to live a proper life. But don't you think it's easier to practice socializing when you're in college than to practice studying all over again? Right now (as a high school "failure"), I'm trying as hard as I can to study; it takes hard work and dedication, both of which I must generate without parents breathing down my throat. Where's the motivation? I'd gladly sacrifice 15 years of childhood and "social skills" for those studying habits now, where I would have a lot more fun learning socialization rather than studying. I'm positive most human being don't have the dedication to relearn learning.
white parents aren't neglectful; their approach is simply more supportive than manipulative.
neglect != hands-off approach
im pretty convinced white second-generation american parents have the best balance of social life and academia. i mean it's not like they're fine with Cs and Ds either.
edit: actually i should clarify: this isnt a race-line division, I believe this to be more of a generational thing. i'd guess most maladjusted parents are immigrants who did not personally experience the american teenage life / american school system, regardless of race. i know that as a 2nd generation chinese-american, i'm not gonna raise my kids like a 'chinese mom'
On January 09 2011 12:04 mIniAtURe wrote: Fixing lacking social skills is much easier than breeding intelligence. My parents are Chinese, and they've been hands-off and impersonal; however, when I look around at other college students, there are those more dedicated, hard-working, and intelligent. How am I supposed to catch up?
Studying and socializing are two skills crucial to success, and I can agree that both are necessary to live a proper life. But don't you think it's easier to practice socializing when you're in college than to practice studying all over again? Right now (as a high school "failure"), I'm trying as hard as I can to study; it takes hard work and dedication, both of which I must generate without parents breathing down my throat. Where's the motivation? I'd gladly sacrifice 15 years of childhood and "social skills" for those studying habits now, where I would have a lot more fun learning socialization rather than studying. I'm positive most human being don't have the dedication to relearn learning.
white parents aren't neglectful; their approach is simply more supportive than manipulative.
neglect != hands-off approach
im pretty convinced white parents have the best balance of social life and academia. i mean it's not like they're fine with Cs and Ds either.
I think the article implies that white parents are 'more' fine with Cs and Ds.
On January 09 2011 12:04 mIniAtURe wrote: Fixing lacking social skills is much easier than breeding intelligence. My parents are Chinese, and they've been hands-off and impersonal; however, when I look around at other college students, there are those more dedicated, hard-working, and intelligent. How am I supposed to catch up?
Studying and socializing are two skills crucial to success, and I can agree that both are necessary to live a proper life. But don't you think it's easier to practice socializing when you're in college than to practice studying all over again? Right now (as a high school "failure"), I'm trying as hard as I can to study; it takes hard work and dedication, both of which I must generate without parents breathing down my throat. Where's the motivation? I'd gladly sacrifice 15 years of childhood and "social skills" for those studying habits now, where I would have a lot more fun learning socialization rather than studying. I'm positive most human being don't have the dedication to relearn learning.
white parents aren't neglectful; their approach is simply more supportive than manipulative.
neglect != hands-off approach
im pretty convinced white parents have the best balance of social life and academia. i mean it's not like they're fine with Cs and Ds either.
White parents let you (the child) decide what you want to do or not. Do you really believe a teenager can make a good, unbiased decision about what's better for them than the 40 year old parents who have lived through childhood? Making decisions for kids isn't the worst thing in the world, only because we live in America and believe in human rights (even for children..........).
On January 09 2011 11:59 Selith wrote: Asian children tend to be superior than western counterparts due to Asian parents and the way they teach things.
That's why pretty much all the modern inventions and advancement in humanity came from China, Korea, or Japan, right?
Oh wait...
Having strong worth ethics does not always link to being brilliant and imaginative. If anything, Asian style of teaching tend to -discourage- creative thinking.
The weak ones do. I feel at home here in the West. I'm pretty much as white as fresh snow and just about as Canadian too. Honestly I find that it's about the individual's needs and freedoms that matter, and I sure as hell would fight and die for the future of our Western world.
On January 09 2011 12:04 mIniAtURe wrote: Fixing lacking social skills is much easier than breeding intelligence. My parents are Chinese, and they've been hands-off and impersonal; however, when I look around at other college students, there are those more dedicated, hard-working, and intelligent. How am I supposed to catch up?
Studying and socializing are two skills crucial to success, and I can agree that both are necessary to live a proper life. But don't you think it's easier to practice socializing when you're in college than to practice studying all over again? Right now (as a high school "failure"), I'm trying as hard as I can to study; it takes hard work and dedication, both of which I must generate without parents breathing down my throat. Where's the motivation? I'd gladly sacrifice 15 years of childhood and "social skills" for those studying habits now, where I would have a lot more fun learning socialization rather than studying. I'm positive most human being don't have the dedication to relearn learning.
white parents aren't neglectful; their approach is simply more supportive than manipulative.
neglect != hands-off approach
im pretty convinced white parents have the best balance of social life and academia. i mean it's not like they're fine with Cs and Ds either.
White parents let you (the child) decide what you want to do or not. Do you really believe a teenager can make a good, unbiased decision about what's better for them than the 40 year old parents who have lived through childhood? Making decisions for kids isn't the worst thing in the world, only because we live in America and believe in human rights (even for children..........).
Did I use neglect?
no but you implied it. and i still think you're underestimating how involved good white parents are, they definitely don't let their kids make every decision.
I can say for a fact that being raised in manner described in that article has caused definite emotional damage to my girlfriend. I can't count the number of nights we would get into a fight and then talk it out, and her side would just boil down to how she was raised. It's really terrible to do this to children and it's not right at all. Not to mention that she is in no way smarter or more successful than me, who has been raised in a normal 'Western' parenting style. My dad is Chinese but doesn't believe in that you should hammer your children into shape. He cultivated my intelligence by working on it in a normal fashion.
On January 09 2011 12:04 mIniAtURe wrote: Fixing lacking social skills is much easier than breeding intelligence. My parents are Chinese, and they've been hands-off and impersonal; however, when I look around at other college students, there are those more dedicated, hard-working, and intelligent. How am I supposed to catch up?
Studying and socializing are two skills crucial to success, and I can agree that both are necessary to live a proper life. But don't you think it's easier to practice socializing when you're in college than to practice studying all over again? Right now (as a high school "failure"), I'm trying as hard as I can to study; it takes hard work and dedication, both of which I must generate without parents breathing down my throat. Where's the motivation? I'd gladly sacrifice 15 years of childhood and "social skills" for those studying habits now, where I would have a lot more fun learning socialization rather than studying. I'm positive most human being don't have the dedication to relearn learning.
white parents aren't neglectful; their approach is simply more supportive than manipulative.
neglect != hands-off approach
im pretty convinced white parents have the best balance of social life and academia. i mean it's not like they're fine with Cs and Ds either.
White parents let you (the child) decide what you want to do or not. Do you really believe a teenager can make a good, unbiased decision about what's better for them than the 40 year old parents who have lived through childhood? Making decisions for kids isn't the worst thing in the world, only because we live in America and believe in human rights (even for children..........).
Did I use neglect?
no but you implied it. and i still think you're underestimating how involved good white parents are, they definitely don't let their kids make every decision.
Thank-you, I know MANY Westernized parents that are better people, parents and role models than any Chinese equivalent I've ever met.
On January 09 2011 12:04 mIniAtURe wrote: Fixing lacking social skills is much easier than breeding intelligence. My parents are Chinese, and they've been hands-off and impersonal; however, when I look around at other college students, there are those more dedicated, hard-working, and intelligent. How am I supposed to catch up?
Studying and socializing are two skills crucial to success, and I can agree that both are necessary to live a proper life. But don't you think it's easier to practice socializing when you're in college than to practice studying all over again? Right now (as a high school "failure"), I'm trying as hard as I can to study; it takes hard work and dedication, both of which I must generate without parents breathing down my throat. Where's the motivation? I'd gladly sacrifice 15 years of childhood and "social skills" for those studying habits now, where I would have a lot more fun learning socialization rather than studying. I'm positive most human being don't have the dedication to relearn learning.
white parents aren't neglectful; their approach is simply more supportive than manipulative.
neglect != hands-off approach
im pretty convinced white parents have the best balance of social life and academia. i mean it's not like they're fine with Cs and Ds either.
I think the article implies that white parents are 'more' fine with Cs and Ds.
i think we all already agree that the article is patently retarded
On January 09 2011 11:23 Chairman Ray wrote: Every paragraph I read of this article just makes me more and more pissed off. Do not think for a second that Asian parents are like this. Only about 1% of them are, and they raise terrible children. Asian parents like these are something that Asians as a whole are very ashamed of. Now this bitch comes out with her head up her ass and tells everyone that she is superior? Who the hell is she trying to impress? All she's doing is creating a bad image for Asians as a whole. I am going to email her and tell her to go kill herself, because I am PISSED OFF.
EDIT: Decided not to email her. Signed her up for gay porn instead.
Good to here that most Asian parents are not like that ray. (mostly wanted to cheer you up because your quote makes me smile)
On another note what happens to mentally retarded kids who get a parent like this?
What happens if a kid simply cannot grasp a concept, I imagine that there are some concepts that some people simply cannot understand?
On January 09 2011 12:04 mIniAtURe wrote: Fixing lacking social skills is much easier than breeding intelligence. My parents are Chinese, and they've been hands-off and impersonal; however, when I look around at other college students, there are those more dedicated, hard-working, and intelligent. How am I supposed to catch up?
Studying and socializing are two skills crucial to success, and I can agree that both are necessary to live a proper life. But don't you think it's easier to practice socializing when you're in college than to practice studying all over again? Right now (as a high school "failure"), I'm trying as hard as I can to study; it takes hard work and dedication, both of which I must generate without parents breathing down my throat. Where's the motivation? I'd gladly sacrifice 15 years of childhood and "social skills" for those studying habits now, where I would have a lot more fun learning socialization rather than studying. I'm positive most human being don't have the dedication to relearn learning.
white parents aren't neglectful; their approach is simply more supportive than manipulative.
neglect != hands-off approach
im pretty convinced white parents have the best balance of social life and academia. i mean it's not like they're fine with Cs and Ds either.
White parents let you (the child) decide what you want to do or not. Do you really believe a teenager can make a good, unbiased decision about what's better for them than the 40 year old parents who have lived through childhood? Making decisions for kids isn't the worst thing in the world, only because we live in America and believe in human rights (even for children..........).
Did I use neglect?
no but you implied it. and i still think you're underestimating how involved good white parents are, they definitely don't let their kids make every decision.
I didn't talk about White parenting, let alone criticize it. I'm talking about the hardcore Chinese parenting style and its results in general.
Most successful children undergoing laxer parenting styles have significant amounts of innate intelligence. Only the Chinese parenting style can breed more successful children than the Western parenting style, from two kids of similar intelligence.
As a follow-up to my previous post, let me copy-and-paste the title of the article here:
Why Chinese Mothers are Superior
Yep. Not "Why the Chinese Method of Parenting Is Superior," but "Why Chinese Mothers are Superior." Not "Why Chinese Mothers are Superior Parents," but why they are "Superior."
On January 09 2011 12:04 mIniAtURe wrote: Fixing lacking social skills is much easier than breeding intelligence. My parents are Chinese, and they've been hands-off and impersonal; however, when I look around at other college students, there are those more dedicated, hard-working, and intelligent. How am I supposed to catch up?
Studying and socializing are two skills crucial to success, and I can agree that both are necessary to live a proper life. But don't you think it's easier to practice socializing when you're in college than to practice studying all over again? Right now (as a high school "failure"), I'm trying as hard as I can to study; it takes hard work and dedication, both of which I must generate without parents breathing down my throat. Where's the motivation? I'd gladly sacrifice 15 years of childhood and "social skills" for those studying habits now, where I would have a lot more fun learning socialization rather than studying. I'm positive most human being don't have the dedication to relearn learning.
white parents aren't neglectful; their approach is simply more supportive than manipulative.
neglect != hands-off approach
im pretty convinced white parents have the best balance of social life and academia. i mean it's not like they're fine with Cs and Ds either.
White parents let you (the child) decide what you want to do or not. Do you really believe a teenager can make a good, unbiased decision about what's better for them than the 40 year old parents who have lived through childhood? Making decisions for kids isn't the worst thing in the world, only because we live in America and believe in human rights (even for children..........).
Did I use neglect?
no but you implied it. and i still think you're underestimating how involved good white parents are, they definitely don't let their kids make every decision.
I didn't talk about White parenting, let alone criticize it.
You wrote: White parents let you (the child) decide what you want to do or not. Do you really believe a teenager can make a good, unbiased decision about what's better for them than the 40 year old parents who have lived through childhood?
i'm sorry, do you have dissociative identity disorder? if so, my sincerest condolences.
Yep. Not "Why the Chinese Method of Parenting Is Superior," but "Why Chinese Mothers are Superior." Not "Why Chinese Mothers are Superior Parents," but why they are "Superior."
On January 09 2011 12:04 mIniAtURe wrote: Fixing lacking social skills is much easier than breeding intelligence. My parents are Chinese, and they've been hands-off and impersonal; however, when I look around at other college students, there are those more dedicated, hard-working, and intelligent. How am I supposed to catch up?
Studying and socializing are two skills crucial to success, and I can agree that both are necessary to live a proper life. But don't you think it's easier to practice socializing when you're in college than to practice studying all over again? Right now (as a high school "failure"), I'm trying as hard as I can to study; it takes hard work and dedication, both of which I must generate without parents breathing down my throat. Where's the motivation? I'd gladly sacrifice 15 years of childhood and "social skills" for those studying habits now, where I would have a lot more fun learning socialization rather than studying. I'm positive most human being don't have the dedication to relearn learning.
white parents aren't neglectful; their approach is simply more supportive than manipulative.
neglect != hands-off approach
im pretty convinced white parents have the best balance of social life and academia. i mean it's not like they're fine with Cs and Ds either.
White parents let you (the child) decide what you want to do or not. Do you really believe a teenager can make a good, unbiased decision about what's better for them than the 40 year old parents who have lived through childhood? Making decisions for kids isn't the worst thing in the world, only because we live in America and believe in human rights (even for children..........).
Did I use neglect?
no but you implied it. and i still think you're underestimating how involved good white parents are, they definitely don't let their kids make every decision.
I didn't talk about White parenting, let alone criticize it.
You wrote: White parents let you (the child) decide what you want to do or not. Do you really believe a teenager can make a good, unbiased decision about what's better for them than the 40 year old parents who have lived through childhood?
i'm sorry, do you have dissociative identity disorder? if so, my sincerest condolences.
I'm sorry I made a mistake, can you read the rest of the post and understand the idea, rather than criticizing me? I meant the style of White parenting in general.
On January 09 2011 12:04 mIniAtURe wrote: Fixing lacking social skills is much easier than breeding intelligence. My parents are Chinese, and they've been hands-off and impersonal; however, when I look around at other college students, there are those more dedicated, hard-working, and intelligent. How am I supposed to catch up?
Studying and socializing are two skills crucial to success, and I can agree that both are necessary to live a proper life. But don't you think it's easier to practice socializing when you're in college than to practice studying all over again? Right now (as a high school "failure"), I'm trying as hard as I can to study; it takes hard work and dedication, both of which I must generate without parents breathing down my throat. Where's the motivation? I'd gladly sacrifice 15 years of childhood and "social skills" for those studying habits now, where I would have a lot more fun learning socialization rather than studying. I'm positive most human being don't have the dedication to relearn learning.
white parents aren't neglectful; their approach is simply more supportive than manipulative.
neglect != hands-off approach
im pretty convinced white parents have the best balance of social life and academia. i mean it's not like they're fine with Cs and Ds either.
White parents let you (the child) decide what you want to do or not. Do you really believe a teenager can make a good, unbiased decision about what's better for them than the 40 year old parents who have lived through childhood? Making decisions for kids isn't the worst thing in the world, only because we live in America and believe in human rights (even for children..........).
Did I use neglect?
no but you implied it. and i still think you're underestimating how involved good white parents are, they definitely don't let their kids make every decision.
I didn't talk about White parenting, let alone criticize it.
You wrote: White parents let you (the child) decide what you want to do or not. Do you really believe a teenager can make a good, unbiased decision about what's better for them than the 40 year old parents who have lived through childhood?
i'm sorry, do you have dissociative identity disorder? if so, my sincerest condolences.
I'm sorry I made a mistake, can you read the rest of the post and understand the idea, rather than criticizing me? I meant the style of White parenting in general.
No, because I don't understand where your mistake was. please restate your idea clearly and without contradiction.
edit: Actually I reread that post and I do understand your point, "only innately intelligent kids tend to benefit from the crazychinese style, whereas average kids benefit most from a balanced, 'white' style." I agree with that. I still don't understand why you first said that 'white parents let you do what you want'? What did you mean to say?
I'm actually curious to know, out of all the Asian people who are posting that this is simply a wrong ideal and is slavery, etc., how many of you were born in America or came to America at a significantly young age?
Because if you were, because of American values being engrained into your everyday life, I would say that your opinions are hard to take from a "Chinese" perspective.
Fixing lacking social skills is much easier than breeding intelligence. My parents are Chinese, and they've been hands-off and impersonal; however, when I look around at other college students, there are those more dedicated, hard-working, and intelligent. How am I supposed to catch up?
Studying and socializing are two skills crucial to success, and I can agree that both are necessary to live a proper life. But don't you think it's easier to practice socializing when you're in college than to practice studying all over again? Right now (as a high school "failure"), I'm trying as hard as I can to study; it takes hard work and dedication, both of which I must generate without parents breathing down my throat. Where's the motivation? I'd gladly sacrifice 15 years of childhood and "social skills" for those studying habits now, where I would have a lot more fun learning socialization rather than studying. I'm positive most human being don't have the dedication to relearn learning.
White parenting lets you (the child) decide what you want to do or not. Do you really believe a teenager can make a good, unbiased decision about what's better for them than the 40 year old parents who have lived through childhood?
The article is obviously extreme, but the underlying idea still exists. Optimally, you would preach hard work and ethics, and then educate children in social interaction, when intelligence in a field becomes more area-specific. This is more efficient because hard work and ethics are easier to teach to a 5 year old than an 18 year old.
Edit: I mean having a crazy asian lady as your mother making decisions that will benefit your future success for you is much easier than your parents letting you screw up and having to fix it all yourself.
I have always thought that this upbringing style was more for parental kudos than the child, the focus seems to be on the mother having something to brag about - whether it be in the child's immediate future or their long term goals.
Everything is decided for the child, and whilst I realise that children can't make objective and long-term assessments of what they want to do, forcing an average or un-talented child to do something skill-based and deriding them for failure seems really cruel to me.
Not everything can be brute-forced with hours of intesive work.
I know a friend of mine who grew up in a chinese household and ended up dropping out of school, and his father hasn't spoken to him for years...
i agree with 25%of this article, and parents are a big factor in the child's success. personally i m very thankful to my parents for raising me (in india) by what would be considered child abuse LOL but comon westerner kids need a little beating most of em are bratz and wankers :D however even though parents intend good for their child, their kinda taking the fun outta life of their children and turning em into robots. My stance is the best thing would be something in the middle of western culture and eastern culture, kinda like how i grew up. my parents are strict but they lemme have all the fun i want.
I came to America when I was 6. My parents are full-blooded Chinese and they still have their cultural roots from China and its associated "Chinese" parenting.
The article is wrong. I am passionately against it. You can be smartest person in the world because of your parents but you will not be anyone who will push civilization and mankind a step forward because of your lack of creativity.
I grew up in an area with a ton of middle class Asian families, and I can definitely say that it mainly is from this demographic that you get the stereotypical "Asian parents." Consequently, my high school had an extreme amount of academic competition and even cheating since there were so many kids of middle class Asians in attendance. On one hand, the high schools in my area usually did quite well at academic and orchestral competitions. On the other hand, GPA was so highly sought after that a lot of bright kids often got left in the dust because there were just so many Asians fighting tooth and nail for every point in their grades.
Fortunately, living in this environment accustomed me to working hard to remain competitive, though it was often a very frustrating experience. On one hand, I know many former students that attended good colleges and ended up in successful careers. However, I also know some Asian classmates and friends who completely cracked under extreme parental pressure and are now scraping by under the influence of depression and drugs. It's quite unfortunate.
I find parental pressures to be a double edged sword. It encourages success, but often at the expense of the child. If the balance is maintained well, the kid can be successful and happy, but it is very unfortunate to see that this is sometimes not the case.
On January 09 2011 12:32 kethers wrote: I'm actually curious to know, out of all the Asian people who are posting that this is simply a wrong ideal and is slavery, etc., how many of you were born in America or came to America at a significantly young age?
Because if you were, because of American values being engrained into your everyday life, I would say that your opinions are hard to take from a "Chinese" perspective.
The article refers to the Chinese style in an Western environment. To imply that the Chinese perspective somehow reveals some hidden approach to "succeeding" in a Western setting is arrogant and false. That's the point. We understand that the Chinese approach can work in China, we're just ranting on why it doesnt work in the West.
On January 09 2011 12:35 fearlessparagon wrote: I came to America when I was 6. My parents are full-blooded Chinese and they still have their cultural roots from China and its associated "Chinese" parenting.
The article is wrong. I am passionately against it. You can be smartest person in the world because of your parents but you will not be anyone who will push civilization and mankind a step forward because of your lack of creativity.
There is hardly any reason to call someone with lack of creativity "smart."
On January 09 2011 12:35 fearlessparagon wrote: I came to America when I was 6. My parents are full-blooded Chinese and they still have their cultural roots from China and its associated "Chinese" parenting.
The article is wrong. I am passionately against it. You can be smartest person in the world because of your parents but you will not be anyone who will push civilization and mankind a step forward because of your lack of creativity.
There is hardly any reason to call someone with lack of creativity "smart."
On January 09 2011 12:33 mIniAtURe wrote: Edit: I mean having a crazy asian lady as your mother making decisions that will benefit your future success for you is much easier than your parents letting you screw up and having to fix it all yourself.
I agree, and the beauty of the Western approach to parenting is that through the hardship of screwing up and fixing it all (with parental support), you learn a lot more about learning from failure and knowing your limits and persistence.
On January 09 2011 12:33 mIniAtURe wrote: Edit: I mean having a crazy asian lady as your mother making decisions that will benefit your future success for you is much easier than your parents letting you screw up and having to fix it all yourself.
I agree, and the beauty of the Western approach to parenting is that through the hardship of screwing up and fixing it all (with parental support), you learn a lot more about learning from failure and knowing your limits and persistence.
That's definitely true, but I'm arguing that you can learn about failure and knowing your limits and persistence without the actual failure, which is what Chinese parenting is all about. >_<
Imo asian parents should apply one of the most important parts of their philosophy here: Balance
not giving a shit about parenting and the childrens work ethic and stuff can make the kids into depressed drug addicts just like being too strict and taking away the childhood from them.
On January 09 2011 12:33 mIniAtURe wrote: Edit: I mean having a crazy asian lady as your mother making decisions that will benefit your future success for you is much easier than your parents letting you screw up and having to fix it all yourself.
I agree, and the beauty of the Western approach to parenting is that through the hardship of screwing up and fixing it all (with parental support), you learn a lot more about learning from failure and knowing your limits and persistence.
That's definitely true, but I'm arguing that you can learn about failure and knowing your limits and persistence without the actual failure >_<
Well ideally you'd have learned all of that before reaching college; and ideally they'd have provided enough support such that it wasn't a terrible experience. My argument still stands: good Western parenting gives children both freedom and guidance, and it shouldn't be mostly on the child to figure everything out. But only parents with the perspective of growing up in the West can really understand how to guide well in every part of the process, whereas Chinese parents tend to care only about results.
On January 09 2011 12:35 fearlessparagon wrote: I came to America when I was 6. My parents are full-blooded Chinese and they still have their cultural roots from China and its associated "Chinese" parenting.
The article is wrong. I am passionately against it. You can be smartest person in the world because of your parents but you will not be anyone who will push civilization and mankind a step forward because of your lack of creativity.
There is hardly any reason to call someone with lack of creativity "smart."
You are right. The individuals who are brought up of that "Chinese" upbringing are never really smart. I am glad that many people in this thread share the same views as I do.
Asians are usually the number crunchers or the automated machines in a company. They never lack the leadership skills to become CEO. It is because the "Chinese" way of parenting deprive their kids of any charisma, personality, and creativity.
Quite frankly, this is also one of the reasons why Asian girls go for men of other races, while you seldom see Asian men dating interracialy.
On January 09 2011 12:42 MuR)Ernu wrote: Imo asian parents should apply one of the most important parts of their philosophy here: Balance
not giving a shit about parenting and the childrens work ethic and stuff can make the kids into depressed drug addicts just like being too strict and taking away the childhood from them.
I had my childhood taken away to a degree, honestly I still love my parents but sometimes I wish that they could be a little less uptight about everything.
I live in a largely predominately Chinese country with a majority being Asians and I can safely say that the woman knows next to nothing about Asian culture. No offense to the Philippinos but if she grew up in the Philippines, she probably has next to no Chinese roots at all. Seriously, the only thing Chinese about her is her surname.
I'm a Chinese kid brought up in Malaysia, and I can say that my family is nothing like that, and the families of my friends are also a far cry from the mother in the article.
Now if many Asian parents are really, literally like what was described in the article, all I can say is that maybe I understand why that Korean kid started shooting people in that US school a while back.
On January 09 2011 12:33 mIniAtURe wrote: Edit: I mean having a crazy asian lady as your mother making decisions that will benefit your future success for you is much easier than your parents letting you screw up and having to fix it all yourself.
I agree, and the beauty of the Western approach to parenting is that through the hardship of screwing up and fixing it all (with parental support), you learn a lot more about learning from failure and knowing your limits and persistence.
That's definitely true, but I'm arguing that you can learn about failure and knowing your limits and persistence without the actual failure >_<
Well ideally you'd have learned all of that before reaching college; and ideally they'd have provided enough support such that it wasn't a terrible experience. My argument still stands: good Western parenting gives children both freedom and guidance, and it shouldn't be mostly on the child to figure everything out. But only parents with the perspective of growing up in the West can really understand how to guide well in every part of the process, whereas Chinese parents tend to care only about results.
What happens when you have a child of average intelligence? With more lenient guidance, the child may not be as successful as some of the Chinese children that Chinese parenting has brought up. True, they may lack in some aspects, but for success and work, they've excelled their expectations. This way, Asian parents don't face the burden of having an unsuccessful child. Average white children may be happy, but they most likely will not be as successful as Asian children who have undergone rigorous learning methods as a child.
Edit: In the end, it comes down to utility. Asians have a higher utility value on success and money, as opposed to White people, who have a lower value. This means that Asians will sacrifice more to achieve success and money, where White people will not work as hard for it. For example, if success is worth two points for Asians and one point for Whites, only Asian people would sacrifice one point of happiness to achieve two points later on. White people would think that is ridiculous. Asian children are not more intelligent than their White counterparts; they've only been raised to maximize their scholarly potential.
lol bullshit, like that would make her "LULU" a damn millionaire.. skimmed through all the words in which he wanted her kid to learn an instrument.. pathetic, coming from an asian household they were pretty tight when i was in grade school, then started rebelling in high school but actually became a good student in college.
On January 09 2011 12:56 Licmyobelisk wrote: lol bullshit, like that would make her "LULU" a damn millionaire.. skimmed through all the words in which he wanted her kid to learn an instrument.. pathetic, coming from an asian household they were pretty tight when i was in grade school, then started rebelling in high school but actually became a good student in college.
It might not make her a millionaire, but it most likely prevents her from being a total failure.
On January 09 2011 12:56 Licmyobelisk wrote: lol bullshit, like that would make her "LULU" a damn millionaire.. skimmed through all the words in which he wanted her kid to learn an instrument.. pathetic, coming from an asian household they were pretty tight when i was in grade school, then started rebelling in high school but actually became a good student in college.
It might not make her a millionaire, but it most likely prevents her from being a total failure.
hahaha Is extremes the only thing you can operate with? Someone has to be either a failure or an engineer? Can you please elaborate how did your social interactions look like? Because I don't believe you would sacrifice true friendships unless your social life wasn't about friendship but wasting time with random kids.
Im a firm believer in best of both worlds.. be happy and successful, to do that, you need to find something you really care about, have a lot of fun doing, and want to do.. for the rest of your life. Or you need to be comfortable and happy doing something you don't want to do(there are jobs that need doing, that almost no one wants to do)... you need to be happy doing this for yourself.. not cause mommy said so
if there was a best way to raise children, everyone would do it, and we would have it all figured out. The fact is, there is not a best way, every child is different, and every parent is different too. It is not my place to tell people how to raise their children, but this woman is doing it wrong, and the sad thing is, she is preaching it like she has worked some miracle, and she has the whole children success thing figured out.
You only live once(imo, I guess we could be reincarnated).. go to sleep overs, play video games, get laid.. do what YOU want to do. If you want to have a successful job, grow up to be wealthy, sacrifice your entire childhood do it if you want, but that should never ever be a parents right to take that away and the fact is, some parents take it away just by brain washing their kids and telling them that's all that matters in life... which is really far from the truth.
Kids will be kids, except this ladies and anyone else, no matter what race, who chooses to raise children like this, they are either unhappy, or brainwashed, and either way, they aren't themselves.
Maybe im being a little idealistic, and brainwashed myself, I was brought up being told to do good in school, but have some fun and do what you want to do as well. I didn't do that well in school after Jr High School started, but at least I still mattered to my parents, thank whatever higher power there might be out there.. cause if my parents treated me the way this lady does in Jr High School.. I would never have made it through, they were all I had.
On January 09 2011 10:19 G0dly wrote: terrible article
I knew a kid whose chinese parents got pissed at him for not maintaining perfect grades. It's not that he didn't try - his parents forced him to study and he tried his best, but no matter he couldn't meet their standards. His parents called him stupid, they accused him of trying to disappoint them, they punished him by not letting him go to friends houses, go to movies, etc.
Eventually he straight up hung himself in school.
The best way is to have a balanced approach. Yes, you should establish a good work ethic - teach children to do their homework, to study, to get good grades, but also let them have some fun. Yelling at a child for getting an A- is ridiculous. I'd rather have a child who gets A- or B+ and has an active social life and friends as opposed to an A+ tryhard who studies/plays instruments all day and night.
addendum: in high school my parents didn't even check my grades. They give me complete independence and do not force me to study - I studied on my own and completed work on my own. When I was younger they taught me that learning was its own reward, that I should always try my best, and that it's important not to be lazy. I'm no genius, not valedictorian, but did get accepted into Cornell while still having fun in high school and maintaining an active social life.
There are a lot of kids in my school raised in the manner described in that article, and they hate their lives. They walk into class like zombies because they get 3-4 hours of sleep a night. They'll fight with the teacher over 3 points on a test because they got a 95 instead of a 98 (while I might be sitting in class happy with a 92). Their grades are their lives.
I say fuck that, go out and have some fun, you only fucking live once, you're only a kid once.
That kid was just bad, sorry, or the parents did it wrong. Any kid who actually studies or focuses hard and well will turn out the same way, provided they don't have a mental disability. Any kid. And if he hung himself, that's just giving up.
Why doesn't it work all the time then? Because the kid is not motivated to do it, since he is dreaming about his friends, and what else he could be doing rather than working. That's not called studying. He didn't try as hard as he could, he just didn't try. I have never known a person that sucked so badly that they couldn't grasp a concept if they actually tried.
And I just realized you're not Chinese, so obvious you don't have the same approach, and obviously that's why your kids are or will be, on average, not as successful. It was the whole point of the article...?
I'm an A+ student. I will annoy and bug my teacher if she gives me a 98 instead of a 99. I've done that on several occasions. And I'm perfectly fine with my life. I have friends. I'm up for valedictorian. I'm on several teams, and hopefully captain of one. My grade is my life, but why am I perfectly fine with it?
Because it's fun doing work. It's fun doing work well. I don't understand why or how people can put the wrong answer on a test or whatnot, and be perfectly fine with that.
The point is trying your best when it's obviously not your best. I love people who are trying their best, and then go out and party, drink, or otherwise not study, or study at the last second. Sorry, that's not trying your best. Everyone's best is 100%. Tell someone to study like a freak, the second they get home until they eat, and until they sleep and then write a no bull**** test, and I'll be damned if they don't get above 95%. Especially in high school.
The difference is simple, some parents enforce that perfection is the child's best. Other parents allow them to settle for an obviously fake try-your-hardest best. Can you match the parent with the ethnicity?
It's fantastic that you enjoy your life, but why is it so hard to understand those who can accept mediocrity? I would certainly rather have a child who was academically average but socially sound (this doesn't mean lazy, but just a more well-rounded person who does put forth effort) than an outstanding student without ever going out and partying once in a while.
Also, not everybody is equipped to be the best, regardless of the work he/she puts in.
On January 09 2011 12:56 Licmyobelisk wrote: lol bullshit, like that would make her "LULU" a damn millionaire.. skimmed through all the words in which he wanted her kid to learn an instrument.. pathetic, coming from an asian household they were pretty tight when i was in grade school, then started rebelling in high school but actually became a good student in college.
It might not make her a millionaire, but it most likely prevents her from being a total failure.
hahaha Is extremes the only thing you can operate with? Someone has to be either a failure or an engineer? Can you please elaborate how did your social interactions look like? Because I don't believe you would sacrifice true friendships unless your social life wasn't about friendship but wasting time with random kids.
Sorry, I meant "failures" and "engineers" as complements. Or, "non-engineer-doctor-lawyer" and "engineer-doctor-lawyer" as opposed to failure and engineer. I do have friends other than my childhood friends, and I can still make more friends. Childhood is only 18 years of your 60+? year life...
On January 09 2011 12:56 Licmyobelisk wrote: lol bullshit, like that would make her "LULU" a damn millionaire.. skimmed through all the words in which he wanted her kid to learn an instrument.. pathetic, coming from an asian household they were pretty tight when i was in grade school, then started rebelling in high school but actually became a good student in college.
It might not make her a millionaire, but it most likely prevents her from being a total failure.
She will be a total failure just like her mother if she just follow the same approach as her mother. If my wife treat my kids like that, she will face a divorce, but that won't happen since only retards would marry this kind of woman. I'm Asian too.
On January 09 2011 10:19 G0dly wrote: terrible article
I knew a kid whose chinese parents got pissed at him for not maintaining perfect grades. It's not that he didn't try - his parents forced him to study and he tried his best, but no matter he couldn't meet their standards. His parents called him stupid, they accused him of trying to disappoint them, they punished him by not letting him go to friends houses, go to movies, etc.
Eventually he straight up hung himself in school.
The best way is to have a balanced approach. Yes, you should establish a good work ethic - teach children to do their homework, to study, to get good grades, but also let them have some fun. Yelling at a child for getting an A- is ridiculous. I'd rather have a child who gets A- or B+ and has an active social life and friends as opposed to an A+ tryhard who studies/plays instruments all day and night.
addendum: in high school my parents didn't even check my grades. They give me complete independence and do not force me to study - I studied on my own and completed work on my own. When I was younger they taught me that learning was its own reward, that I should always try my best, and that it's important not to be lazy. I'm no genius, not valedictorian, but did get accepted into Cornell while still having fun in high school and maintaining an active social life.
There are a lot of kids in my school raised in the manner described in that article, and they hate their lives. They walk into class like zombies because they get 3-4 hours of sleep a night. They'll fight with the teacher over 3 points on a test because they got a 95 instead of a 98 (while I might be sitting in class happy with a 92). Their grades are their lives.
I say fuck that, go out and have some fun, you only fucking live once, you're only a kid once.
That kid was just bad, sorry, or the parents did it wrong. Any kid who actually studies or focuses hard and well will turn out the same way, provided they don't have a mental disability. Any kid. And if he hung himself, that's just giving up.
Why doesn't it work all the time then? Because the kid is not motivated to do it, since he is dreaming about his friends, and what else he could be doing rather than working. That's not called studying. He didn't try as hard as he could, he just didn't try. I have never known a person that sucked so badly that they couldn't grasp a concept if they actually tried.
And I just realized you're not Chinese, so obvious you don't have the same approach, and obviously that's why your kids are or will be, on average, not as successful. It was the whole point of the article...?
I'm an A+ student. I will annoy and bug my teacher if she gives me a 98 instead of a 99. I've done that on several occasions. And I'm perfectly fine with my life. I have friends. I'm up for valedictorian. I'm on several teams, and hopefully captain of one. My grade is my life, but why am I perfectly fine with it?
Because it's fun doing work. It's fun doing work well. I don't understand why or how people can put the wrong answer on a test or whatnot, and be perfectly fine with that.
The point is trying your best when it's obviously not your best. I love people who are trying their best, and then go out and party, drink, or otherwise not study, or study at the last second. Sorry, that's not trying your best. Everyone's best is 100%. Tell someone to study like a freak, the second they get home until they eat, and until they sleep and then write a no bull**** test, and I'll be damned if they don't get above 95%. Especially in high school.
The difference is simple, some parents enforce that perfection is the child's best. Other parents allow them to settle for an obviously fake try-your-hardest best. Can you match the parent with the ethnicity?
It's fantastic that you enjoy your life, but why is it so hard to understand those who can accept mediocrity? I would certainly rather have a child who was academically average but socially sound (this doesn't mean lazy, but just a more well-rounded person who does put forth effort) than an outstanding student without ever going out and partying once and a while.
Also, not everybody is equipped to be the best, regardless of the work he/she puts in.
Why is it so hard to understand those who can't accept mediocrity? You may not want a brilliant-but-obviously-lacking child, but she sure does.
And sure, everyone may not be equipped to be the best. No, everyone can't be the best at the same time. But everyone has the potential to be pretty close.
On January 09 2011 12:56 Licmyobelisk wrote: lol bullshit, like that would make her "LULU" a damn millionaire.. skimmed through all the words in which he wanted her kid to learn an instrument.. pathetic, coming from an asian household they were pretty tight when i was in grade school, then started rebelling in high school but actually became a good student in college.
It might not make her a millionaire, but it most likely prevents her from being a total failure.
She will be a total failure just like her mother if she just follow the same approach as her mother. If my wife treat my kids like that, she will face a divorce, but that won't happen since only retards would marry this kind of woman. I'm Asian too.
She's not a failure from a success standpoint. She clearly has a stable income and work, however much she lacks personality-wise. And besides, I'm sure SOMEBODY out there will like her child.
Also, the mother isn't divorced yet. Somebody obviously does like her.
I'm Chinese, speak Hokkien, and I think this mom is a douchebag. Lucky my all-Chinese parents saw the need for me to have a childhood. Not that I'm shabby academically either, too. These neurotic women are ruining our society. Her kids will never be good for anything other than taking examinations and playing an instrument for sissies.
I already voiced that I didnt like her method of raising her kids, but I also hate that she's trying to speak as an authoritative figure on Chinese people. It's just =/ and putting a stereotype on both Chinese and Non-Chinese.
Yeah...article is presupposing that academic success is the greatest/sole possible determinant for what constitutes "superior" in parenting.
So happy Yale Professors are such clever creatures...anecdotal evidence, never firmly establishing the limitations defining "superior", and then proceeding to waver her own parenting penis (her childrens' successes) around like it was the American Flag they planted at Iwo Jima.
Do I think most Western Parents are too soft? Yes. Do I think this stereotype of an Asian parent is downright tyrannical? Sure as shit.
In the end every human is different, and will react differently to alternate parenting styles.
On January 09 2011 12:56 Licmyobelisk wrote: lol bullshit, like that would make her "LULU" a damn millionaire.. skimmed through all the words in which he wanted her kid to learn an instrument.. pathetic, coming from an asian household they were pretty tight when i was in grade school, then started rebelling in high school but actually became a good student in college.
It might not make her a millionaire, but it most likely prevents her from being a total failure.
hahaha Is extremes the only thing you can operate with? Someone has to be either a failure or an engineer? Can you please elaborate how did your social interactions look like? Because I don't believe you would sacrifice true friendships unless your social life wasn't about friendship but wasting time with random kids.
Sorry, I meant "failures" and "engineers" as complements. Or, "non-engineer-doctor-lawyer" and "engineer-doctor-lawyer" as opposed to failure and engineer. I do have friends other than my childhood friends, and I can still make more friends. Childhood is only 18 years of your 60+? year life...
I don't think this answers my question TBH. I think you didn't see your earlier posts as criticizing "western parenting style" because for you this is a belief, this is a fact. And it's hard for you to see it in any other way because you simply have never experienced it. And learning to learn is so hard for you now that the "Chinese mother" style seems to be the only thing that would work. At least to reach the "engineer-doctor-lawyer" degree.
For me her way is inferior because it forces kid to get there instead of encouraging more. And the point is one can get there on his free will and still enjoy his life. At worst case scenario one will not become an engineer but will still choose something that he/she enjoys. And that's what is important and not how much one earns. "Chinese mother's" child worst case scenario is one dies before he has a chance to make any friends. Or kills her. Or maybe some other people. Only because she was too lazy and selfish to treat her child like a human being.
On January 09 2011 10:19 G0dly wrote: terrible article
I knew a kid whose chinese parents got pissed at him for not maintaining perfect grades. It's not that he didn't try - his parents forced him to study and he tried his best, but no matter he couldn't meet their standards. His parents called him stupid, they accused him of trying to disappoint them, they punished him by not letting him go to friends houses, go to movies, etc.
Eventually he straight up hung himself in school.
The best way is to have a balanced approach. Yes, you should establish a good work ethic - teach children to do their homework, to study, to get good grades, but also let them have some fun. Yelling at a child for getting an A- is ridiculous. I'd rather have a child who gets A- or B+ and has an active social life and friends as opposed to an A+ tryhard who studies/plays instruments all day and night.
addendum: in high school my parents didn't even check my grades. They give me complete independence and do not force me to study - I studied on my own and completed work on my own. When I was younger they taught me that learning was its own reward, that I should always try my best, and that it's important not to be lazy. I'm no genius, not valedictorian, but did get accepted into Cornell while still having fun in high school and maintaining an active social life.
There are a lot of kids in my school raised in the manner described in that article, and they hate their lives. They walk into class like zombies because they get 3-4 hours of sleep a night. They'll fight with the teacher over 3 points on a test because they got a 95 instead of a 98 (while I might be sitting in class happy with a 92). Their grades are their lives.
I say fuck that, go out and have some fun, you only fucking live once, you're only a kid once.
That kid was just bad, sorry, or the parents did it wrong. Any kid who actually studies or focuses hard and well will turn out the same way, provided they don't have a mental disability. Any kid. And if he hung himself, that's just giving up.
Why doesn't it work all the time then? Because the kid is not motivated to do it, since he is dreaming about his friends, and what else he could be doing rather than working. That's not called studying. He didn't try as hard as he could, he just didn't try. I have never known a person that sucked so badly that they couldn't grasp a concept if they actually tried.
And I just realized you're not Chinese, so obvious you don't have the same approach, and obviously that's why your kids are or will be, on average, not as successful. It was the whole point of the article...?
I'm an A+ student. I will annoy and bug my teacher if she gives me a 98 instead of a 99. I've done that on several occasions. And I'm perfectly fine with my life. I have friends. I'm up for valedictorian. I'm on several teams, and hopefully captain of one. My grade is my life, but why am I perfectly fine with it?
Because it's fun doing work. It's fun doing work well. I don't understand why or how people can put the wrong answer on a test or whatnot, and be perfectly fine with that.
The point is trying your best when it's obviously not your best. I love people who are trying their best, and then go out and party, drink, or otherwise not study, or study at the last second. Sorry, that's not trying your best. Everyone's best is 100%. Tell someone to study like a freak, the second they get home until they eat, and until they sleep and then write a no bull**** test, and I'll be damned if they don't get above 95%. Especially in high school.
The difference is simple, some parents enforce that perfection is the child's best. Other parents allow them to settle for an obviously fake try-your-hardest best. Can you match the parent with the ethnicity?
It's fantastic that you enjoy your life, but why is it so hard to understand those who can accept mediocrity? I would certainly rather have a child who was academically average but socially sound (this doesn't mean lazy, but just a more well-rounded person who does put forth effort) than an outstanding student without ever going out and partying once and a while.
Also, not everybody is equipped to be the best, regardless of the work he/she puts in.
Why is it so hard to understand those who can't accept mediocrity? You may not want a brilliant-but-obviously-lacking child, but she sure does.
And sure, everyone may not be equipped to be the best. No, everyone can't be the best at the same time. But everyone has the potential to be pretty close.
It isn't hard to understand, I thought it was pretty clear in the way my post was written.
I don't think successful is the proper term. Getting great grades, good test scores, and graduating from top universities does not equal success. At least, not in my eyes.
Personally I wouldn't train a dog like that, much less a child.
(And I know my opinion on the subject might be irrelevant. I know I'm just a lazy, mediocre Westerner raised by lazy, mediocre Western parents who lacked the fortitude and insight to rear me right. I beg Dr. Chua's forgiveness for my impertinence. Had she been my mom, I'm sure I would have turned out with much more sensible views on parenting.)
wow this lady certainly exaggerates Chinese parents...this kind of "i wont let my child even fucking pee til she learns to perfect a song" is pretty old skool tbh. i come from a Chinese family and sure my mum's forced me to do a lot of things, but never in such an extreme way as this. I think most Chinese parents are actually much less insane than in this article. they tend to be more strict and controlling than western parents but certainly not to this degree.
Also the article exaggerates the shittiness of Western parenting. maybe thats just how it is in america? it certainly isnt like that here.
On January 09 2011 13:31 Jonoman92 wrote: I don't think successful is the proper term. Getting great grades, good test scores, and graduating from top universities does not equal success. At least, not in my eyes.
So.... graduating from university and getting a well paying job isn't successful? you should elaborate, cause as far as i can tell, for you being well educated =/= success. mediocrity ftw, eh?
anyway i'd say my chinese parents were pretty strict and they did some things white people wouldn't even dream of, but this woman is way way way over the line
On January 09 2011 13:13 mIniAtURe wrote: And sure, everyone may not be equipped to be the best. No, everyone can't be the best at the same time. But everyone has the potential to be pretty close.
No, no they do not. Not even close to "everyone". But that's beside the point. The point is:
On January 09 2011 13:13 mIniAtURe wrote: Why is it so hard to understand those who can't accept mediocrity? You may not want a brilliant-but-obviously-lacking child, but she sure does.
Who gives a shit what she wants? If she was my wife, I sure wouldn't. Not that I would ever marry such an uptight and arrogant woman.
If her kid doesn't want to be some high-strung overachiever, that's up to him/her. If her kid instead wants to be average and happy instead, that's perfectly fine. If the parents can't accept that, too bad.
A prestigious degree and high paying job are not the measures of a quality individual, or a happy individual.
That said, a successful person can and often will find ways to be "successful" by these standards as well. The difference is however a happy and healthy mental state (something very often found lacking in products of uber-strict parents).
Article is ridiculous. She's raising joyless children. These kids will never develop socially like the rest of the world, leading to more long-term problems than one can number. And try relating to anyone without any idea of popular culture, niche interests, current expressions and a rounded and normal upbringing.
On January 09 2011 13:31 Jonoman92 wrote: I don't think successful is the proper term. Getting great grades, good test scores, and graduating from top universities does not equal success. At least, not in my eyes.
So.... graduating from university and getting a well paying job isn't successful? you should elaborate, cause as far as i can tell, for you being well educated =/= success. mediocrity ftw, eh?
anyway i'd say my chinese parents were pretty strict and they did some things white people wouldn't even dream of, but this woman is way way way over the line
The word success in our society seems to have the meaning of having a good quality of life that comes along with money, but I think that defining the word in such a manner is a terrible thing. By this definition the majority of regular people are not "successful" and I think the notion that money is so important causes people with less wealthy to somewhat resent those who have more.
Education has nothing to do with success in my opinion. Who cares if you graduate from Yale, have a high paying job, and a family if you aren't satisfied with your life. Doing the things in the preceding sentence make one appear successful to the average person looking over your life, but you yourself are the only one who can decide whether or not you consider your life to be a success.
The childhood kids are forced to sacrifice, the random dreams and hobbies that they were not allowed to pursue, and the many other opportunities missed in order to achieve the cookie cutter pattern that our society outlines as "being successful" makes it extremely difficult for those who are expected to follow such a path to follow what they may truly want from their lives.
I think saying that not being university educated is settling for mediocrity is pretty narrow-minded.
I work as a part-time tutor teaching English to fobs who come to study, and a great deal of them are China kids. As in from China, not just Chinese, and let me give you an insight into their shocking daily schedule. Apparently their parents think this is good for them.
6am: Wake up 7am: Go to day school 1pm: Released from school 1.30pm: Lunch 2.30pm: Go to private language school 5.30pm: Dinner time 6pm: On the subway home 7pm: Shower and housekeeping 7.30pm: Homework time 9.30pm: Free time at last 10pm: Bed
6 days a week. These kids are 12 to 17. What a well-rounded lifestyle! Anyway, needless to say only a few kids can actually cope with this schedule - because most kids are your academically average, fun-loving human beings. Most of them just switch off during lessons or play games on their handphones, just skip their day school altogether, or just make some perfunctory attempts at the questions and then regress into doing something else. Most of them are likeable kids.
I'm Asian and in my home country cases like these are not even rare. My mother did force me to study and stuff when I was like < 12yo, but after that she let me do whatever I want because from that age she cannot win against me in a physical fight anymore and that was it.
Turn out that with all the liberty of time and choice I could do even better, I took the best high-school in the region and after that got accepted for an engineering school in France, and I will graduate soon. If I had follow my mother's orders I would have become a stupid coder working for my uncle (who own a local software company lol).
The method of this woman just sucks, if her kids are good they will make choices that is 1000 times better than their mother's. Forcing her way to them just destroy their future and replace it with a downgraded version imagined by her narrowed mind.
Oh god, I'm Asian and this woman is awful... My parents are similar to that but slightly less strict, these kids would grow to resent their parents and ditch them the second they can and avoid most their life. Getting grounded for getting a B+ is stupid... -.-
This is utterly disgusting. Her kids might end up being the smartest ones at their school, but without any sleepovers and hanging out at their friends house's, they are also going to be the loneliest and most socially awkward.
All through school my parents made it clear that all you had to do was to excel academically in order to be successful. It took me going to college to realize that there is more to life than academics.
Ok read through the stuff her daughters weren't allowed to do...
$#%king bonkers.
Nice thing. Give birth to a child, decide before hand said child will be the best in it's class, have no friends and that it will have to do what you want it to to every second of it's "free" time.
So much rage at parents. In the few that I read, all the parents were "Chinese" parents as defined by this article. It's a bit ridiculous to ignore how the demanding parenting style can affect kids. The article completely ignores how emotional well-being and social skills becomes a huge opportunity cost for extreme excellence. My parents were a little like this but after a certain point I put myself into a situation where they couldn't really force me to do anything. I am sure I would be a lot worse emotionally If they had been stricter with my academic performance, but their support was still helpful.
On January 09 2011 14:00 shadymmj wrote: I work as a part-time tutor teaching English to fobs who come to study, and a great deal of them are China kids. As in from China, not just Chinese, and let me give you an insight into their shocking daily schedule. Apparently their parents think this is good for them.
6am: Wake up 7am: Go to day school 1pm: Released from school 1.30pm: Lunch 2.30pm: Go to private language school 5.30pm: Dinner time 6pm: On the subway home 7pm: Shower and housekeeping 7.30pm: Homework time 9.30pm: Free time at last 10pm: Bed
6 days a week. These kids are 12 to 17. What a well-rounded lifestyle! Anyway, needless to say only a few kids can actually cope with this schedule - because most kids are your academically average, fun-loving human beings. Most of them just switch off during lessons or play games on their handphones, just skip their day school altogether, or just make some perfunctory attempts at the questions and then regress into doing something else. Most of them are well likeable kids.
Just some tidbits from me.
As an Asian-American I just had to finally create an account on TL and respond to this thread. First off, I do not know if it is the same in China as it is in Korea, but many students have that type of schedule due to the fact that competition to get into a good university is extremely high. You need to do well on the standardized test or you are screwed. There is no other activities that universities look for besides academics (although I believe it is changing a bit the past few years).
Second off, I do not know any Korean parents or Chinese who take it to the extreme as that crazy woman. My parents never forbade me to do extra curricular activities, in fact they encouraged me to do everything from acting to sports etc. They wanted me to make more friends and party once in a while. When I was a kid they were tough on me to study well for a few hours a day. And you know what? Because of that I got straight A's. Nowadays not so much as I am a very unmotivated person and my parents knew that. Most Asian-Americans I know are generally smart, funny, and social too. Our valedictorian got straight A's in every single AP classes (10-15 in total) while doing sports like soccer and he was very social.
Like others said I believe one or the other ("Chinese" or "White") methods of raising kids are both viable unless of course you take it to the extreme. A combination of both I think is the best way to raise a child. And also that woman doesn't know crap and is arrogant. She isn't the spokeswoman for all of Chinese or Asian parents.
On January 09 2011 14:09 MuffinFTW wrote: Oh god, I'm Asian and this woman is awful... My parents are similar to that but slightly less strict, these kids would grow to resent their parents and ditch them the second they can and avoid most their life. Getting grounded for getting a B+ is stupid... -.-
I think the grounding part is not much punishment, really.. what are her kids being grounded from, school? piano? sleep?
man, all of a sudden I also feel like writing an article about why people like me [aka me specifically] are "superior" to everyone else. If it's outrageous enough it might even get published in a major news paper, and then I might get some media $$$.
People in the thread who proudly say that they argue over 2 points to get a 99 instead of 97 are epic.
Don't you realize that all you're doing is wasting your time, wasting your professor's time, and being a giant pain in the ass? Since you're obviously getting an A anyway just do something useful, or god forbid, fun.
On January 09 2011 14:47 PJA wrote: People in the thread who proudly say that they argue over 2 points to get a 99 instead of 97 are epic.
Don't you realize that all you're doing is wasting your time, wasting your professor's time, and being a giant pain in the ass? Since you're obviously getting an A anyway just do something useful, or god forbid, fun.
The thing that bothers me is when their goal isn't fairness. If you get a 98 when you should have gotten a 99 because your instructor made a mistake grading an assignment, then it's okay to politely bring it to their attention at the right time. If you are just arguing to try to get more points you are being an asshole most of the time.
I honestly feel that you have to be strict but not in the overzealous way that the article suggests. I was raised where my parents did expect me to do well and to work hard on anything I did. Difference is that they made me do both sports and music to make me more well rounded. When it came to marks, when they see a B for whatever reason we would work out the problems continuously until it got better. When I finally asked why my parents pushed so hard, they said that working hard is healthy so that you can easily choose whatever you want to become and be extremely successful and also to help others.
I felt that was so much more appropriate and feel that most Chinese parents aim for this, not necessarily "1 million dollars before your 30" mentality
The thing that bothers me is when their goal isn't fairness. If you get a 98 when you should have gotten a 99 because your instructor made a mistake grading an assignment, then it's okay to politely bring it to their attention at the right time. If you are just arguing to try to get more points you are being an asshole most of the time.
for some [sad] people, feeling 'superior' about 1% is the only thing they've got left in life, don't take it away from them.
On January 09 2011 14:47 PJA wrote: People in the thread who proudly say that they argue over 2 points to get a 99 instead of 97 are epic.
Don't you realize that all you're doing is wasting your time, wasting your professor's time, and being a giant pain in the ass? Since you're obviously getting an A anyway just do something useful, or god forbid, fun.
The thing that bothers me is when their goal isn't fairness. If you get a 98 when you should have gotten a 99 because your instructor made a mistake grading an assignment, then it's okay to politely bring it to their attention at the right time. If you are just arguing to try to get more points you are being an asshole most of the time.
This happened to me a lot in both high school and undergrad and the only reason I would ever waste someone's time with something so inconsequential is if I'm not sure what I got points taken off for. If it was obviously graded incorrectly and I'm not going to learn anything or get a better grade by having it regraded, I'm not going to bother.
EDIT: I mean basically this kid ITT is trying to argue that he always wants to get 100% and so he'll quibble over some meaningless points JUST SO THAT THE PROFESSOR CAN SEE THAT HE REALLY GOT 100% If you already fucking know you got 100% but it was misgraded as a 97%, why waste someone's time with it?
On January 09 2011 14:47 PJA wrote: People in the thread who proudly say that they argue over 2 points to get a 99 instead of 97 are epic.
Don't you realize that all you're doing is wasting your time, wasting your professor's time, and being a giant pain in the ass? Since you're obviously getting an A anyway just do something useful, or god forbid, fun.
The thing that bothers me is when their goal isn't fairness. If you get a 98 when you should have gotten a 99 because your instructor made a mistake grading an assignment, then it's okay to politely bring it to their attention at the right time. If you are just arguing to try to get more points you are being an asshole most of the time.
Only post I've read in this thread, so this might be entirely out of context, but since when is university grading even remotely fair? Screw arguing for a single percentage point, I'd first like to know why I have tests with a 50% random correct answer variable for each question.
Thankfully parents like this are more rare than she implies, I remember a girl from my high school with a mother like this, she ended up in the hospital after cutting herself from intense depression.
Kids need to achieve value by themselves, not have it forced on them.
While I get the message she's trying to put across, it's too extreme. Even as a conservative asian on my part, I uphold my asian values but I'll never ever resort to that extreme to get my future child to do well.
I actually think that if the kid knows what the parent is trying to force on them, and understand what the end results can be, this is totally a good way of raising kids. I see nothing wrong with this, her kids still love and respect her, as do I with my mom after raising me in this way.
On January 09 2011 14:47 PJA wrote: People in the thread who proudly say that they argue over 2 points to get a 99 instead of 97 are epic.
Don't you realize that all you're doing is wasting your time, wasting your professor's time, and being a giant pain in the ass? Since you're obviously getting an A anyway just do something useful, or god forbid, fun.
The thing that bothers me is when their goal isn't fairness. If you get a 98 when you should have gotten a 99 because your instructor made a mistake grading an assignment, then it's okay to politely bring it to their attention at the right time. If you are just arguing to try to get more points you are being an asshole most of the time.
Only post I've read in this thread, so this might be entirely out of context, but since when is university grading even remotely fair? Screw arguing for a single percentage point, I'd first like to know why I have tests with a 50% random correct answer variable for each question.
Er, it's 100% when you know the correct answer. It's only chance when you guess. Complain about education, and then fail at it?
The thing that bothers me is when their goal isn't fairness. If you get a 98 when you should have gotten a 99 because your instructor made a mistake grading an assignment, then it's okay to politely bring it to their attention at the right time. If you are just arguing to try to get more points you are being an asshole most of the time.
for some [sad] people, feeling 'superior' about 1% is the only thing they've got left in life, don't take it away from them.
Sounds like someone here *cough*kalingingsong*cough* is jealous because people are smarter than them. You sound exactly like people I know who do terribly and then get pissed off when I ask for missing marks. Example, I get 50% on a test. The teacher puts down 49%. Am I going to argue like hell for that 1%? Hell yes. And why should that be any different at the top. I've earned it. Again, I work 10 hours. But my boss only pays me for 5 hours. I'd be hella annoyed if I didn't get that. Did you not earn that 100%? So why settle for anything less.
That article really racist lol. My asian parents had that type of pressure on me as a kid but they backed off middle school because they knew I was responsible enough. I think one of the big reasons why they force kids to excel in their studies is because they get scared their kid won't get a good job and won't be able to go to a good school.
On January 09 2011 14:47 PJA wrote: People in the thread who proudly say that they argue over 2 points to get a 99 instead of 97 are epic.
Don't you realize that all you're doing is wasting your time, wasting your professor's time, and being a giant pain in the ass? Since you're obviously getting an A anyway just do something useful, or god forbid, fun.
The thing that bothers me is when their goal isn't fairness. If you get a 98 when you should have gotten a 99 because your instructor made a mistake grading an assignment, then it's okay to politely bring it to their attention at the right time. If you are just arguing to try to get more points you are being an asshole most of the time.
Only post I've read in this thread, so this might be entirely out of context, but since when is university grading even remotely fair? Screw arguing for a single percentage point, I'd first like to know why I have tests with a 50% random correct answer variable for each question.
Er, it's 100% when you know the correct answer. It's only chance when you guess. Complain about education, and then fail at it?
The thing that bothers me is when their goal isn't fairness. If you get a 98 when you should have gotten a 99 because your instructor made a mistake grading an assignment, then it's okay to politely bring it to their attention at the right time. If you are just arguing to try to get more points you are being an asshole most of the time.
for some [sad] people, feeling 'superior' about 1% is the only thing they've got left in life, don't take it away from them.
Sounds like someone here *cough*kalingingsong*cough* is jealous because people are smarter than them. You sound exactly like people I know who do terribly and then get pissed off when I ask for missing marks. Example, I get 50% on a test. The teacher puts down 49%. Am I going to argue like hell for that 1%? Hell yes. And why should that be any different at the top. I've earned it. Again, I work 10 hours. But my boss only pays me for 5 hours. I'd be hella annoyed if I didn't get that. Did you not earn that 100%? So why settle for anything less.
But people who argue for bonus marks annoy me.
You're a giant tool.
Let's see.
Arguing for 1% when you're getting 50% on a test: very well may help your grade, since you obviously need all the points you can get.
Arguing for 5 hours of labor you didn't get paid for: more moneyz!
Arguing for 1% when you have a super solid A+ regardless: No possible real benefit whatsoever.
The only reason you are quibbling over you 98 to get a 99 is to make yourself feel good, and you're a jackass for wasting anyone's time with it. This has nothing to do with getting ripped off for points for "settling for less."
On January 09 2011 14:47 PJA wrote: People in the thread who proudly say that they argue over 2 points to get a 99 instead of 97 are epic.
Don't you realize that all you're doing is wasting your time, wasting your professor's time, and being a giant pain in the ass? Since you're obviously getting an A anyway just do something useful, or god forbid, fun.
The thing that bothers me is when their goal isn't fairness. If you get a 98 when you should have gotten a 99 because your instructor made a mistake grading an assignment, then it's okay to politely bring it to their attention at the right time. If you are just arguing to try to get more points you are being an asshole most of the time.
Only post I've read in this thread, so this might be entirely out of context, but since when is university grading even remotely fair? Screw arguing for a single percentage point, I'd first like to know why I have tests with a 50% random correct answer variable for each question.
Er, it's 100% when you know the correct answer. It's only chance when you guess. Complain about education, and then fail at it?
I think he's talking about questions that really could be argued one way or another, but only one answer is being graded as correct.
My westerner (why did I even write this, does it matter?) parents were fairly strict, yet nowhere near what she's describing. I really think it's about finding a balance. Learning discipline and establishing high self esteem as a youth is important, but a sense of being able to pursuit one's dreams whatever they may be is just as important.
On January 09 2011 14:47 PJA wrote: People in the thread who proudly say that they argue over 2 points to get a 99 instead of 97 are epic.
Don't you realize that all you're doing is wasting your time, wasting your professor's time, and being a giant pain in the ass? Since you're obviously getting an A anyway just do something useful, or god forbid, fun.
The thing that bothers me is when their goal isn't fairness. If you get a 98 when you should have gotten a 99 because your instructor made a mistake grading an assignment, then it's okay to politely bring it to their attention at the right time. If you are just arguing to try to get more points you are being an asshole most of the time.
How are you guys even arguing over this? I completely agree with what micronesia said. Professors are human beings and they make mistakes. Nothing wrong with bringing that to their attention, if you've earned it, you've earned it.
I was raised exactly like OP. Letter for letter, did piano, got 98+ in high school, typical Asian upbringing.
From my own experience I would like to point out that the people in this thread saying that its inhumane, they are not looking at the whole picture. Sure you can have fun in high school and attend uni get a nice job and great life. I actually agree on that. However, the point of Chinese parents being so strict is that they are sacrificing a little of the childhood fun for better success for the majority of the child's life after they turn 18. Competition for top schools are getting higher and higher as the population is increasing, with opportunities to make 6 digit figures less and less unless you do come out of a top school. Chinese parents simply think far ahead, really far ahead.
As for me, I am doing second year at Princeton university. Not to brag but I think I turned out great compared to the people saying Asian kids turn to drugs and so.
Younger generations are becoming more pansy now days.
People are stopping to realise that education is a luxury, there is alot people out there that wants education but couldn't. Back then, alot more teenagers need to work full time to even survive, now that some are forced to study it become inhumane?
You should be thankful that you're allowed to do full time study. I would take strict educations over living on the street working all day just to buy food. Since when having alot of fun become a necessity?
I'm not saying I agree with their method, but people need to realise the good life you get is hardwork of your parents and ancestors, and don't throw the word like inhumane around.
Edit: Not to mention that you'll be free to do whatever you want when you're grown up.
On January 09 2011 15:56 fearlessparagon wrote: But did your parents called you garbage and didn't let you pee until you knew how to play a piano song about a donkey?
Yes, but it wasnt a song about a donkey. Was a song by Chopin: Fantasie Impromptu
As a teacher in China I'm very familiar with this line of thinking/parenting.
What she says is accurate in ideal cases. But it should also be noted that this method of parenting does not work on all children. Some kids are able to excel under that kind of constant pressure, but plenty of other kids crack. For every success story here there is also a story of rebellion, mental breakdown, or suicide. Every 'Chinese mother' expects their kid to be number 1, but there are 50 or 60 kids in a class and only one of them can be number 1. The other 59 are doomed to misery. And the lucky number 1? He/She is compared to the number 1 for the grade, the school, the district, the city, the province... it never ends.
The other negative impact is that children don't grow up the same way western kids do. Children very often can't take care of themselves, do miserably in university (seriously Chinese university students are the worst students you will ever see in your life and if a Chinese engineer has to drive a taxi in Canada that's probably for the best because that's about all I would trust half the 'engineers' I've taught with. You can get your degree without ever showing up to a class in your life as long as you pay the tuition). Chinese students invariably get their real education on how to do their jobs only after they have actually started doing their jobs. In fact, most jobs will not pay you a salary for your first 6 months to a year because you will simply be getting the training you need to do that job. Obviously this varies a great deal depending on the major/profession but this is how it works in many cases, especially anything involving government/bureaucratic positions.
The last thing that's wrong with this method of parenting is that while it raises good workers, it doesn't raise good leaders/managers. Right now the biggest problem hindering Chinese growth is the lack of management expertise that allows businesses to expand past a certain point. That point being the part where business owners have to hire and train people they aren't related to to important positions. Often times that transition breaks a growing and successful business because people are either corrupt, selfish, and incompetent, or lack all personal initiative and creativity for problem solving. There is a serious lack of competent management in China compared to the west and I think that this kind of parenting is in large part to blame.
The bottom line is this: western kids DO oftentimes need to be forced to do things they don't want to do more often such as finishing their math homework and eating their vegetables and getting their exercise etc. But Chinese kids also need to be given more time to have unsupervised play time and socialization opportunities so they can develop other real life skills that will just as important to their future success and happiness as what they learn in the classroom.
On January 09 2011 16:42 Hautamaki wrote: As a teacher in China I'm very familiar with this line of thinking/parenting.
What she says is accurate in ideal cases. But it should also be noted that this method of parenting does not work on all children. Some kids are able to excel under that kind of constant pressure, but plenty of other kids crack. For every success story here there is also a story of rebellion, mental breakdown, or suicide. Every 'Chinese mother' expects their kid to be number 1, but there are 50 or 60 kids in a class and only one of them can be number 1. The other 59 are doomed to misery. And the lucky number 1? He/She is compared to the number 1 for the grade, the school, the district, the city, the province... it never ends.
The other negative impact is that children don't grow up the same way western kids do. Children very often can't take care of themselves, do miserably in university (seriously Chinese university students are the worst students you will ever see in your life and if a Chinese engineer has to drive a taxi in Canada that's probably for the best because that's about all I would trust half the 'engineers' I've taught with. You can get your degree without ever showing up to a class in your life as long as you pay the tuition). Chinese students invariably get their real education on how to do their jobs only after they have actually started doing their jobs. In fact, most jobs will not pay you a salary for your first 6 months to a year because you will simply be getting the training you need to do that job. Obviously this varies a great deal depending on the major/profession but this is how it works in many cases, especially anything involving government/bureaucratic positions.
The last thing that's wrong with this method of parenting is that while it raises good workers, it doesn't raise good leaders/managers. Right now the biggest problem hindering Chinese growth is the lack of management expertise that allows businesses to expand past a certain point. That point being the part where business owners have to hire and train people they aren't related to to important positions. Often times that transition breaks a growing and successful business because people are either corrupt, selfish, and incompetent, or lack all personal initiative and creativity for problem solving. There is a serious lack of competent management in China compared to the west and I think that this kind of parenting is in large part to blame.
The bottom line is this: western kids DO oftentimes need to be forced to do things they don't want to do more often such as finishing their math homework and eating their vegetables and getting their exercise etc. But Chinese kids also need to be given more time to have unsupervised play time and socialization opportunities so they can develop other real life skills that will just as important to their future success and happiness as what they learn in the classroom.
Great answer, and probably the best post I've read in this thread so far.
If I may, what's your take on China's future economic endeavors given the trends in that nations children? You say they make good workers, but not good leaders, do you think they'll just overcome this through dumb luck and learning in the workplace, or will they use Western sources or leadership? The latter seems unlikely because of Chinese predilection toward ethnocentrism, but hey, ya never know.
On January 09 2011 16:42 Hautamaki wrote: As a teacher in China I'm very familiar with this line of thinking/parenting.
What she says is accurate in ideal cases. But it should also be noted that this method of parenting does not work on all children. Some kids are able to excel under that kind of constant pressure, but plenty of other kids crack. For every success story here there is also a story of rebellion, mental breakdown, or suicide. Every 'Chinese mother' expects their kid to be number 1, but there are 50 or 60 kids in a class and only one of them can be number 1. The other 59 are doomed to misery. And the lucky number 1? He/She is compared to the number 1 for the grade, the school, the district, the city, the province... it never ends.
The other negative impact is that children don't grow up the same way western kids do. Children very often can't take care of themselves, do miserably in university (seriously Chinese university students are the worst students you will ever see in your life and if a Chinese engineer has to drive a taxi in Canada that's probably for the best because that's about all I would trust half the 'engineers' I've taught with. You can get your degree without ever showing up to a class in your life as long as you pay the tuition). Chinese students invariably get their real education on how to do their jobs only after they have actually started doing their jobs. In fact, most jobs will not pay you a salary for your first 6 months to a year because you will simply be getting the training you need to do that job. Obviously this varies a great deal depending on the major/profession but this is how it works in many cases, especially anything involving government/bureaucratic positions.
The last thing that's wrong with this method of parenting is that while it raises good workers, it doesn't raise good leaders/managers. Right now the biggest problem hindering Chinese growth is the lack of management expertise that allows businesses to expand past a certain point. That point being the part where business owners have to hire and train people they aren't related to to important positions. Often times that transition breaks a growing and successful business because people are either corrupt, selfish, and incompetent, or lack all personal initiative and creativity for problem solving. There is a serious lack of competent management in China compared to the west and I think that this kind of parenting is in large part to blame.
The bottom line is this: western kids DO oftentimes need to be forced to do things they don't want to do more often such as finishing their math homework and eating their vegetables and getting their exercise etc. But Chinese kids also need to be given more time to have unsupervised play time and socialization opportunities so they can develop other real life skills that will just as important to their future success and happiness as what they learn in the classroom.
Great answer, and probably the best post I've read in this thread so far.
If I may, what's your take on China's future economic endeavors given the trends in that nations children? You say they make good workers, but not good leaders, do you think they'll just overcome this through dumb luck and learning in the workplace, or will they use Western sources or leadership? The latter seems unlikely because of Chinese predilection toward ethnocentrism, but hey, ya never know.
Of all the nations on Earth I'd the Chinese are one of the least ethnocentric. They are very interested in learning from and adapting to other cultures. It's one of the main reasons they were a perennial world power; though they have been conquered many times, what invariably ended up happening is their conquerors were 'sinocized' as the Chinese learned from and adapted the strengths of their conquerors and gradually assimilated them into their culture.
On a more practical note, I have been involved in training and exchanges with up-and-coming young Chinese business people who receive training on leadership skills here in China and are also sent on exchange programs to top business schools in America, Canada, Australia, and England. The Chinese are nothing if not aware of where they need to improve and focussed on doing so. Even small children are sent to foreigner taught English classes not just for English, but for the exposure to foreign culture/child rearing mores. Parents know that kids sent to one of my classes will not just get proper pronunciation training (which is hardly that important really) but more importantly will get training on teamwork and leadership skills and opportunities for creativity and problem solving skill development that they would not get in a classroom headed by a Chinese teacher.
Also, it should be noted that Shanghai recently completely revamped their education system, have retrained virtually all their teachers and replaced the top adminsstrators. Their new motto is 'Every question must have more than one correct answer.' The emphasis, again, is on creative problem solving. And Shanghai just blew away the rest of the world in standardized testing in math, sciences, and language. Even perennial top countries like Finland, South Korea, and Singapore, were several percentage points behind the Shanghai kids (ages 15-16).
What China is showing is that despite the fact that it is the world's largest country with the world's largest bureaucracy facing some of the world's most difficult problems, they still have the ability to change and adapt quickly to meet future needs. I'm putting my money (quite literally) on China in the 21st century.
I just finished my last year at school a month ago. My group of friends had 6 people in it, and we took the top 6 spots (academically) of our year. Of these 6 people one of them had what this article calls "Chinese parents" She was very smart, at pretty much every subject but in the end took 2nd place, one of my other friends took 1st. The biggest difference between the two is one had totally loose parents, never forced him to do anything, but he was motivated to work hard, while the other was coerced. In my eyes you simply cannot equate coersion to motivation as this article does. She was also only alowed to attend birthday parties, but not any other social gathereing was allowed, she even had to get on MSN in secret every night just to talk to me.
The other 5 of us went out most weekends to movies etc, yet this didn't seem to affect our grades at all, while she was denied a social life of any sort (which imo is a large part of being a kid) and didn't even take 1st place. Of course this is all anecdotal evidence, exactly what the article in the OP is, which by the way seems like a thinly veiled "my parenting methods are better than yours" rant. The piano story was especially heart-wrenching are her kids motivated by success, or by fear of serious repercussions?
Frankly I'm just surprised a supposed successful Yale law professor could write something like this; let alone the WSJ publishing this garbage. Borderline racist, inaccurate, poorly constructed arguments are words which pretty much sum-up this thinly veiled 'my kids are better than yours' article. I usually don't post - but the arrogance of this woman is simply staggering. Although I do agree with the one point about once you begin to get good at something you enjoy the work; her other points have no basis other than her own anecdotes. Of course she does not mention any shortcomings or significant problems their family encountered, because there were not any or because she just wants us to think so? Absolutely ridiculous that this could be published, in the WSJ nonetheless... apparently the prerequisites for a Harvard Law degree do not include common sense....
this is pretty extreme, and is not actually indicative of what all asian parents are like.
it's people like these that make the headlines and establish the stereotypes. most asian parents in the western hemisphere are a fair balance of western and eastern values, with a higher tendency to be a little more strict.
the author may appear to be fostering outward success, but she is definitely contributing to mental anguish and stunted psychological growth. kids who are not allowed to grow into their own individual beings end up socially inhibited and isolated.
That article is written by any other writer who just highly exaggerates all the events... and she's definitely whitewashed... probably doesn't speak canton... why the piano instead of teaching them how to practice usury...
She named her child "Sophia".. or "Σοφíα"... or"Wisdom"...
there's plenty more asian parents who don't force their kids to do something...and yet raise their kids pretty well
Being successful in school doesn't really mean that chinese mothers are superior. Not only it matters less as to individual's happiness and quality of life but to the personal options which seem a bit limited in these families.
Chinese student: Knows how to take exams and nothing else. Most of the times they're completely useless at doing work, and even in school at the later stage, say doing research, they become weak since they never think outside the box much. Chinese universities are largely crap since the students are pressured too hard in highschool to get into universities, once they're actually in them, they slack off and blow off the times.
This type of forced learning thing is kinda common here, but some of the stuff mentioned in the op are quite extreme. Not going the bathroom? :o Though I remember worse stuff some guys getting beaten, flogged with belts because the didnt do well/failed an exam (but it is a very rare case).
Lots of parent here cut-off internet connections, cable tv, prevent them from hanging out etc a month before exams.
It all comes down to the individual, some people will not study when they are forced to do so, and might end up having very undesirable effects. If that lady is advocating her methods to be superior to other peoples parenting methods, it's just plain wrong.
On January 09 2011 15:40 ecaesar wrote: I was raised exactly like OP. Letter for letter, did piano, got 98+ in high school, typical Asian upbringing.
From my own experience I would like to point out that the people in this thread saying that its inhumane, they are not looking at the whole picture. Sure you can have fun in high school and attend uni get a nice job and great life. I actually agree on that. However, the point of Chinese parents being so strict is that they are sacrificing a little of the childhood fun for better success for the majority of the child's life after they turn 18. Competition for top schools are getting higher and higher as the population is increasing, with opportunities to make 6 digit figures less and less unless you do come out of a top school. Chinese parents simply think far ahead, really far ahead.
As for me, I am doing second year at Princeton university. Not to brag but I think I turned out great compared to the people saying Asian kids turn to drugs and so.
Your university doesn't say anything about your happiness and quality of life. Besides, you are only one example; I'm betting your parents are wealthy and more westernized than most. A white child raised loosely in the same position would be likely to obtain similar results. The difference is, the asian child is more likely to drop out early due to the pressure, or commit suicide, or be socially inept and chronically unfulfilled. No offense, but making it into a top school isn't an accomplishment; the smart will always succeed regardless of where they got their degree, and pass the kids who got higher entry-level salary in exchange for not having a childhood. Academics are a measure of your time and rote memorization, not your aptitude, and they never will help you in the real world.
I was accepted into one of the top schools in the country, and I dropped out, and it's a good thing I did. I've been broke, I've been rich. My parents don't care, and neither do I. I am pretty much equally happy in either situation. The money doesn't give me anything that I need. On the other hand, you have been instilled with values that make it impossible to be happy without money. If things go bad for you, or god forbid you decide to follow your own path, your parents will shun you. Not mine. I was raised on junk food and unconditional love, getting shit grades, and now I have everything I always wanted. I think your story is kind of sad, to be honest.
I come from an east-asian family (not China, but chinese origin) - I don't think this is particularily racist or anything, but it sure is typical for chinese parents to be like this.
I feel like this woman is trying to live through her children. She's trying to make them live the life she would have liked - being excellent on the piano and all that jazz. By not giving them any freedom to express themselves she can mold them into the person she wanted to be. To be honest some strict discipline can be good, but the stories she's been telling in that article go way too far. She is limiting her own kids' personal freedom which is necessary for anyone to bloom.
It's quite sad but this happens alot, maybe not in such extremes (MUST GET A's, MUST PRACTICE 10 HOURS A DAY etc.). Children grow up to be depressed and colorless. Most of them can and will be succesful, but none will truly excel because they never had the chance to do what they want to do.
After reading this article, i have come to the conclusion, that this was written with sardonicism and irony in mind. She CAN'T be serious. I mean, common:
If a Chinese child gets a B—which would never happen—there would first be a screaming, hair-tearing explosion.
thats obvious sarcasm, otherwise she would make a retard out of herself.
On January 09 2011 16:05 furymonkey wrote: Younger generations are becoming more pansy now days.
People are stopping to realise that education is a luxury, there is alot people out there that wants education but couldn't. Back then, alot more teenagers need to work full time to even survive, now that some are forced to study it become inhumane?
You should be thankful that you're allowed to do full time study. I would take strict educations over living on the street working all day just to buy food. Since when having alot of fun become a necessity?
I'm not saying I agree with their method, but people need to realise the good life you get is hardwork of your parents and ancestors, and don't throw the word like inhumane around.
Edit: Not to mention that you'll be free to do whatever you want when you're grown up.
i disagree, we have it much harder than older generations. university used to be FREE, and they didn't have massive distractions like the internets.
notice her children are not writers, composers, or designers. they read music off a sheet and play it with mechanical proficiency. they get good grades in a system that awards points per question, not of what you understand, but of what you retained.
given enough time and practice people can become mechanically proficient at anything. don't get me wrong, repetition and practice is something that is also necessary to learn anything (there is no substitute for experience), but in order to truly understand and have knowledge of something it takes motivation beyond getting yelled at and effort beyond pure repetition.
It's because of people like this woman that S. Korea has one of the highest suicide rates amongst developed countries, particularly in high school and university students.
People, all of this (the article AND the comments) are written in such a way as if children were bred in a farm or something like that. It was horrible for me to read this, cause that lady sounds like she encouraging parents to "breed" children. LOL, what happened to everyone being a beautiful personality. God damn these crazy mothers :/
I think one of the most important thing about parenting is to not make the mistakes that your parents made when they were parenting you. Obviously, this woman didn't learn
wow she sounds like a monster. Also, according to wikipedia she was born in the US, so I don't know if I accept her as an authority on what Chinese mothers in general are like. It reads more like "why I'm a superior mother to the white mothers that I know".
The bottom line is this: western kids DO oftentimes need to be forced to do things they don't want to do more often such as finishing their math homework and eating their vegetables and getting their exercise etc. But Chinese kids also need to be given more time to have unsupervised play time and socialization opportunities so they can develop other real life skills that will just as important to their future success and happiness as what they learn in the classroom.
I agree wholeheartedly with your post in general, but especially with this last statement. The author makes a key mistake by implicitly assuming "success" is an objective measurement. As many in this thread have mentioned before, you can be happy having money or no money, it all depends on the individual goal/attitude towards life. A monk can be happy while owning absolutely nothing, while there are many stories in the media of rich people being absolutely miserable to the point of suicide.
From my experience at a top research/science based university in the U.S., Asians raised in this manner are usually make up the top echelons of virtually every science oriented career, since their ability to work long hours and memorize large amounts of info for exams is just astounding (not going further, they brought sleeping bags, toothbrushes etc to the library during finals not to loose their chairs). This allows them to do really well even if they don't have innovative or creative ideas. Likewise, they are really good at doing repetitive work at research laboratories. Technology companies of today require these kind of workers who are good at doing repetitive complex work to man every kind of laboratory possible.
Research is moving towards automation very quickly, and today computers do most of the work of analyzing data. Literally, you can begin your work on a number of weak hypothesis and just crunch raw data to select the most viable and so forth. In consequence, individual brilliance is becoming less relevant in the face of such powerful technologies. This is why people who are hard working and drilled to this kind of work day and day out are naturally more prevalent in these scenarios/jobs.
The problem with this education ethos is that most of the money is made by the upper corporate echelons of large companies who employ these researchers, and these people are usually business/economics majors who are good with social skills, have connections and have money. Most of the people I know in college who had this kind of education is really socially incompetent, never had any women, many friends etc. I am not hating on this, it is their choice/upbringing and to each his own, but these things are what teaches you social skills that are essential to business. This is why today for today, the majority of people educated as the article points out end up at data crunching/analyst positions, which have a relatively low ceiling compared to the upper corporate levels of leading companies.
I like to think that I had somewhere halfway between a western parenthood and an eastern one. I think that (as a nice change), not only have they taught me things, but I too have taught them things about life, the nature of their actions, and so on. They raise me differently now, and as a result, I don't have to rely on lying to them or sneaking around behind their backs. It's a give and take scenario and both parties compromise. That's not to say we don't ever fight, but when we do, at least it's with reasoned argument and not with an 'I'M THE PARENT SO WHAT I SAY GOES BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT'S GOOD FOR YOU' kind of vibe.
And on that note, how could you? Nobody knows what the future holds, so I don't see why parents should be able to choose what paths their children take. Is it likely that children brought up in a traditional chinese home will have even the chance to become a professional sports-person, given that they aren't allowed to focus on sports so should they choose? I know that parents only want what's best for their children, but like the article states about human nature, you won't like it until you're good at it. In the same way, you won't realise what you truly want to do until you've experienced it first-hand. Part of being a parent (I feel at least) is giving your kids the opportunity to take that chance, to make mistakes, and be there for them unconditionally. This, instead, suggests that you should threaten them with the ever-constant fear that if they didn't maintain an A+ average, they would be extradited from the family, tossed away like so much trash.
Wow, as many say in the comments that this lady is narrow minded, so are most of you saying this, I guess with the assumption that the 'Western' or to contradict with the article 'American mothers' raise their child is way better/best (as some people cleary indicate). I'm pretty sure neither is true, I'm not at the point yet but I don't plan on raising any child either way. Childern need guidance, learn about discipline, moral values etc. which say at least 50~70%(random numbers) of childern cannot develop on their own.
Crazy to read this article though, that's some way to be raised. Might I point out this is FAR from the worst way possible!
On January 09 2011 15:40 ecaesar wrote: I was raised exactly like OP. Letter for letter, did piano, got 98+ in high school, typical Asian upbringing.
From my own experience I would like to point out that the people in this thread saying that its inhumane, they are not looking at the whole picture. Sure you can have fun in high school and attend uni get a nice job and great life. I actually agree on that. However, the point of Chinese parents being so strict is that they are sacrificing a little of the childhood fun for better success for the majority of the child's life after they turn 18. Competition for top schools are getting higher and higher as the population is increasing, with opportunities to make 6 digit figures less and less unless you do come out of a top school. Chinese parents simply think far ahead, really far ahead.
As for me, I am doing second year at Princeton university. Not to brag but I think I turned out great compared to the people saying Asian kids turn to drugs and so.
Your university doesn't say anything about your happiness and quality of life. Besides, you are only one example; I'm betting your parents are wealthy and more westernized than most. A white child raised loosely in the same position would be likely to obtain similar results. The difference is, the asian child is more likely to drop out early due to the pressure, or commit suicide, or be socially inept and chronically unfulfilled. No offense, but making it into a top school isn't an accomplishment; the smart will always succeed regardless of where they got their degree, and pass the kids who got higher entry-level salary in exchange for not having a childhood. Academics are a measure of your time and rote memorization, not your aptitude, and they never will help you in the real world.
I was accepted into one of the top schools in the country, and I dropped out, and it's a good thing I did. I've been broke, I've been rich. My parents don't care, and neither do I. I am pretty much equally happy in either situation. The money doesn't give me anything that I need. On the other hand, you have been instilled with values that make it impossible to be happy without money. If things go bad for you, or god forbid you decide to follow your own path, your parents will shun you. Not mine. I was raised on junk food and unconditional love, getting shit grades, and now I have everything I always wanted. I think your story is kind of sad, to be honest.
Not everyone has equal opportunities... like some Somalians...
some people only hire you if you were not a gentile... for high positions in the Fed Reserve, like chairman of the Fed has never been a gentile...
On January 09 2011 21:41 Luddite wrote: wow she sounds like a monster. Also, according to wikipedia she was born in the US, so I don't know if I accept her as an authority on what Chinese mothers in general are like. It reads more like "why I'm a superior mother to the white mothers that I know".
i was thinking along the same lines that she was born in america...
Her name is rendered "蔡美儿" in wikipedia but it should be "蔡美兒"... mainlander parents or something...? other chinese people aren't vile as she is
there's always people like Stephen Wolfram who enjoys the studying
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Wolfram PhD in theoretical physics at 20 "At 13, he earned a scholarship to Eton College. At 14, he wrote his first book on particle physics. At 17, the scientific journal Nuclear Physics published a paper he'd written. At 18, he wrote a widely-acclaimed paper on heavy quark production." http://www.nndb.com/people/325/000022259/ he wasn't forced into doing this either also invented mathematica and raised in a western family
On January 09 2011 22:47 GWBushJr wrote: Her name is rendered "蔡美儿" in wikipedia but it should be "蔡美兒"... mainlander parents or something...? other chinese people aren't vile as she is
The first variation is in simplified Mandarin and that's used in China and Singapore. The second variation is in traditional Mandarin and that's used in Taiwan.
So if her parents are mainlanders, they should be using the first variation. And yes she is vile. More vile than a cesspit.
On January 09 2011 22:47 GWBushJr wrote: Her name is rendered "蔡美儿" in wikipedia but it should be "蔡美兒"... mainlander parents or something...? other chinese people aren't vile as she is
The first variation is in simplified Mandarin and that's used in China and Singapore. The second variation is in traditional Mandarin and that's used in Taiwan.
So if her parents are mainlanders, they should be using the first variation. And yes she is vile. More vile than a cesspit.
I wouldn't really call her 'vile', in many ways she is a successful parent, alternative she could have 2 drug addicted knocked up daughters or criminals.
The main thing that disgusts me about this is that the mother obviously doesn't want her child to become successful because she wants it to have a good future, she does it because she herself wants to feel good about producing a successful member of society.
If she even, for the slightest bit, cared about the state of mind of that child, she would never ever use such extreme methods.
I really don't understand how it is even up for discussion that what she does to that child is pretty bad. I'm not saying that strict parenting is bad, but for gods sake, read that article, that's not strict parenting, that's... whatever it is, it's not good.
Not even to mention that there are other ways of raising your child to have certain values without doing all of this shit.
On January 09 2011 22:47 GWBushJr wrote: Her name is rendered "蔡美儿" in wikipedia but it should be "蔡美兒"... mainlander parents or something...? other chinese people aren't vile as she is
The first variation is in simplified Mandarin and that's used in China and Singapore. The second variation is in traditional Mandarin and that's used in Taiwan.
So if her parents are mainlanders, they should be using the first variation. And yes she is vile. More vile than a cesspit.
Have you ever anyone met who came from the SARS region? Not Macau, but that other city that the British occupied for 100 years. Those parents don't seem anything like what the article describes. They don't speak in the "normal" language or "national" language...or write the same font either...
This thread is endless and I'm going to admit that I did not read it all, yet I'm going to chime in with my opinion on the article regardless.
My father always took a more or less hands off approach to my upbringing and education, as he was brought up by parents who really let him do whatever he wanted. He focused on his own interests, and excelled in school despite a complete lack of parental intervention, I joke that my mother is the stereotypical Asian mother, despite being white, because of her insistence that I get straight A's, not only in high school, but now in university as well. However, she did not engage in any of the more questionable insulting and threatening described in the article. On the other hand, an asian friend of mine's mother is essentially the stereotype: forcing her to play hours of piano and violin a day, ensuring that she got no marks other than A's, making sure she had to hide her boyfriends from her parents (unless they were good marriage candidates xD).
There are obviously other factors at play, but it's interesting to note that while she gives an endless amount of grief to her mother now, it's because of her that she's one of the most talented pianists I've ever seen. On the other hand, I'm a rather mediocre drummer, guitarist, bassist, and producer, who spends all his spare time playing SC, HoN, Rock Band, random FPS, and Magic: the Gathering... when I'm not occasionally attending class. Call it anecdotal evidence, but I was never forced into strong work habits, and it shows.
the little anecdote about lulu and the little donkey song perfectly encapsulates why there are so many asian kids posting HELP I HATE MY PARENTS blogs on TL. My god, that's fucking disgusting.
On January 10 2011 02:36 Hawk wrote: the little anecdote about lulu and the little donkey song perfectly encapsulates why there are so many asian kids posting HELP I HATE MY PARENTS blogs on TL. My god, that's fucking disgusting.
This, I almost threw up. If this were my parents I don't know what I'd do seriously.
Honestly if I was asian I would be pretty upset with this article... I am sure this is a very general article, but the perceptions people will make because of this will be astounding.
It's highly arguable that this Chinese method is better than the Western one. There are clear advantages and disadvantages with the advantages being obvious. However, it's important for a child to find out who his/herself is without too much influence from parents. I think it's wrong to disallow a child from enjoying their life and a shitload of constant work will depress a child. There are qualities of the Chinese method which I'm in favour of but I do think it's too strict to be healthily beneficial.
On January 09 2011 11:16 Robellicose wrote: Most of my asian friends at university had horrific work ethics because of this type of upbringing. They put in stupendous hours of solo work, and there was no noticeable improvement in their grades compared to us 'westerners'. They never socialised because they were working all the time, and two I knew were being treated for depression by their doctors but refused to go home or tell their parents because they were terrified of being labelled as a failure. Failure is something that will occur in real life, it's not possible to be perfect at everything you do and so this type of upbringing was crushing these guys' self esteem. Whilst I agree that westerners can sometimes be too lax with their children I heartily disapprove of this draconian parental model the author suggests.
The way to success is to "fail early and fail often", so you can learn from your mistakes and be successful.
While I feel that modern Western parents are often too lenient toward their children, the woman doesn't seem to take into account the possibility of a lurking variable. Come on now, if you only allow the top echelon of educated people into America, no wonder their children will take education seriously! I mean, education is what allowed their parents to be successful, therefore there's a higher priority placed on education, and the kids will focus more on education than other things. =/ They will try harder, at the expense of social life and such, to get into the top universities. Furthermore, these parents who have immigrated are most likely very intelligent people themselves. Why wouldn't their children be intelligent too? I think having Asian kids seem to dominate is more the effect of letting only the highly educated parents immigrate instead of anything else.
A major problem with anecdotal evidence - ie "I have an asian friend with similar parents and he/she has 99% in so and so subjects and is the next Mozart" - is that rarely do you ever get past the highly-cultivated, overachiever exterior and to the neuroses within. Unless of course it's one of those kids who has already broken and is the type to make "I HATE MY PARENTS" blogs on TL.
I cannot count how many times a kid has seemed perfectly normal, doing great in school, only to suddenly go off into the deep end. Rampant drug use, self harm ie cutting, hypersexuality, dropping out of school despite amazing grades and more than enough credits to graduate, or even suicide. The most extreme examples are the kids who have bottled up so much over decades that one day they come home and in an argument over how many hours they can spend on the computer or something they end up killing their mothers.
Having known and seen so many such kids for so long, you start to see the warning signs (dermatillomania of the fingers/thumbs is a huge one), and of course anytime you see an overbearing mother alarm bells go off. But trust me when I say this kind of parenting causes problems. Whether or not those problems are visible depends on the kid and how much torture they can withstand, but even the success stories wind up being high-strung stuffed-shirts (and if they're dudes, asian girls can't stand them). Proper social and mental skills are more conducive to living a good life or at the very least just being mentally healthy, and that is something these parents ignore entirely.
This is a stupid article backed up by no numbers or data. Even though I am Asian I can tell you right now that if I used my own personal experience and those of friends I know, the ones with lenient mothers were able to have kids who ended up being doctors and lawyers, while those who are strict don't always end up well. I can't believe a Yale professor is stupid enough to write something like this backed up with no proper research.
In the end it's up to the kid's personality and intelligence. If the whole world had strict Asian mothers there will only be doctors and lawyers that keep on backstabbing either other to get ahead of the competition while their moms ask them why they are not number one. Hey I can over-generalize and write a retarded article too.
I can't believe a Yale professor is stupid enough to write something like this backed up with no proper research.
Sounds like shes just trying to convince herself, people have a tendency to do that. I can only imagine how much one would need to feel that a only barely six figure job as a Yale Professor was worth giving up the entirety of ones childhood and young adult interests and friends for.
Especially when most of her superiors on the college board, whom she calls boss, likely gained their position not just through hard work, but through the invaluable acquaintances and connections they developed precisely during there young adulthood.
The difference is, the asian child is more likely to drop out early due to the pressure, or commit suicide, or be socially inept and chronically unfulfilled
Are you fucking serious? Are you implying that fulfillment and social aptitude are gained only through partying with girls and doing drugs/alcohol at an early age and neglecting your schoolwork, and not by focusing on education? Wow..seriously, I don't even know where to begin. I was about to go off on a rant, but realized that there is no point arguing against stereotypical mindsets.
A Russian girl I'm studying with at my Master's Degree has told me that the young Russian generation today is doing something of the sort. Her young niece at around 7-8 was able to correct her English when she spoke and made mistakes and plays guitar and piano perfectly. She has been trained all day to be the perfect intellectual and to enjoy it. My Russian colleague also did study very hard herself, and when she did her Bachelor Degree she basically got home, ate some food and studied until late a night, went to sleep and got up to go to school the next morning. However, she also got to live a little, and thinks of the new generation as quite different from herself. They are being trained to be very talented from a very young age. We've had quite some discussions about the merits of this and her objections to the lack of ambition in the Danish educational system, which doesn't really allow students to excel past the basics they need to learn - academically, at least.
The cultural and psychological aspects of this are very interesting. I myself am personally or the mentality that you need to teach kids how to live, not how to comform to society. However, in regards to the upbringing of your children, there definitely are some interesting trends to address. While being both creative, imaginative and intelligent, I am still not able to carry out the things I want to do. Even simple tasks can become a heavy burden when I simply don't have the self-discipline to get them done. I'm part, I attribute this to the input-heavy influence I have from my extensive use of computers since I was young, but I think it's also about how I've been allowed to be self-indulgent and never really thought highly of achievement and duty. So, if I have to do a paper for my university, I will procrastinate, build up a lot of negative energy about it, and do it at the last moment. If I set out to do a creative project of sorts, I will only work on it in inspired bursts and often not see it through. I see many others displaying around me displaying similar behaviour, although often to a lesser degree, and I'm wondering whether it might become a "decease", at least to the extent that it will become normal that people display a degree of ADHD.
An essential point is that human beings are very instinctual. If they feel comfortable and do not feel strongly about doing something, be it out of duty of in the interest of self-development, they won't, or at least will try to do it as little as possible. If they don't have ambition, discipline, a sense of duty or other personal drivers, they will easily sink into a hole of self-indulgence. You will not be happy and you will not contribute to society as much as you would otherwise be able to. And this is where it's very useful to train people to relate differently to things from a young age.
Of course, this really takes offset in my own life story. Many things have come together to make me the person I am today. I'm 26, and I feel that there are some things I really need to work with and that, to some extent, they are limiting my happiness because they affect both my self-realization and my social interactions. And it is no doubt harder to deal with these things at my age than it would be for me to have gotten past these obstacles as a child. However, at the same time, I feel that I'm much better at being happy and just "living life" than many other people. I'm able to frequently get a big experience from small things, I am capable of harbouring strong feelings, I truly enjoy all my interaction with other people, whenever I do any task I enjoy myself (even if I dread it and procrastinate before I start), I'm able to engage in whatever I do and make it personal, and even in moments of great doubt, I'm am able to focus on the the positives and never think of life in black and white essentialism. Again, many of these things cannot simply be attributed to my upbringing, but I have noticed many things that I can trace back. I am so happy that I was able to get the space to develop myself as a child and that I was brought up in a home that valued warm human interaction with focus on feeling rather than the function of things.
In life we go through a series of processes, and to be happy I think it's important that we are able to feel comfortable or enjoy these processes, rather than only to enjoy the goal we reach at the end of them. Still, it once again comes down to feelings and how we learn to associate these with experiences in life. I would say that if you once focus on "the doing" and become talented and successful, but at the same time are disconnected from your feelings, then what's the point? All the talent and success in the world won't help you become a better or happier human being, which would appear to be the essence of human life - for it not to be empty (if you take a common measure of meaning in today's society). However, other people might simply associate different feelings to the interaction and the tasks they are doing in cultures where this "Chinese mother" upbringing is prevalent.
One situation that really brought contrasts in education and upbringing into focus was when we were doing an exercise in one of our classes in my Master's Degree. It was about social networks and migration, and we were told to draw diagrams of which people we would relate to in our daily life, in what spheres, and through which means of communication. Some people were a bit confused as to how they would suppose to do it, asked questions and didn't show much initiative. Most people had drawn ugly brain-storming maps, not really dealing with the fact that they have to graphically represent three different elements. What they put down was very basic and they were only really working with the very basis of the task. Due to how they made their maps, the different things they put in them weren't very well connected, and in the end, the presentations and talk about them wasn't very useful. Then this Chinese exchange student in class showed hers, and she had done one with multiple layers of circles, divided by lines and drawn with different patterns of colouring. She had managed to combine all the relevant dimensions and give a coherent presentation of them. In the end, the way she did it gave a much more complex understanding of how the different spheres, social contexts and means of communication affected each other. To be honest, I think people were a bit baffled. I didn't really want to be impressed and I thought that, after all, it was a simple thing, and was just a matter of how you work. Anyone could do it that way if they wanted, I told myself. However, the truth is that there is an important difference; the way this girl took the tasks seriously and the way she related to it. It was obviously second nature to her and didn't necessarily require more effort. But because she was used to thinking along these lines, engaging in the work and thinking more critically, she was able to do this and everyone was the better for it. Meanwhile, I'm sure that most of my class-mates wouldn't have bothered to take that step, even if they would have enjoyed working with the task in a more serious and elaborate manner. To put this into perspective, I had done my model in a yellow colour that was pretty much invisible when seen through the overhead projector. I wasn't fully finished when we had to stop and I didn't formulate myself properly when presenting it, not really getting into any kind of depth. My mind had been elsewhere doing elsewhat
Are you fucking serious? Are you implying that fulfillment and social aptitude are gained only through partying with girls and doing drugs/alcohol at an early age and neglecting your schoolwork, and not by focusing on education?
Are you implying that there isn't a level of socialization between constant partying, and I quote
If your goal for your daughter is to be successful in life, kudos to you.
However, stripping your daughter of her free will is something you should not be proud of.
I've seen way too many friends (3.8+ GPA, 2200+ SAT) end up going to college and getting wasted every day. Apparently it's to make up for her lack of childhood, which is quite sad.
Also, those Asian girls end up marrying white men. Another reason why Asian fever works one direction.
The article to some extent is an exaggeration for effect but from personal experience, there are many elements of truth to it. It ties in closely to another article linked here about universities becoming too 'asian' (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=168143).
The article explicitly states that she is highlighting cultural differences and that the term 'Chinese mothers' is not racial.
To those people getting worked up about racism: get a grip.
As a yale student and korean i am ashamed that my professor could write something so blatantly exaggerated and hysterical. Yes, some asian parents might explode and tear out hair like she suggests but they are a minority just like the black or white mothers who may behave similarly. I dont know how she got into yale with such childish and sterotypical remarks. Written from iphone sorry for mistakes.
This is a pretty disgusting piece. The one Asian I know with parents like that is very gun-obsessed and racist, and resents his parents, pretty much looking for any possible excuse not to come home. Hardly something healthy. That story about the piano was especially awful. After reading this, I'm really not so surprised why so many Asian youth give up their chance to do anything good in life and turn into game addicts. Many people just can't really go as far as their parents want them to. If you read Boxer's bio, it really does kinda show how it happens.
Are you fucking serious? Are you implying that fulfillment and social aptitude are gained only through partying with girls and doing drugs/alcohol at an early age and neglecting your schoolwork, and not by focusing on education?
Are you implying that there isn't a level of socialization between constant partying, and I quote
People defending the author should reread this post. So many people are saying things along the lines of "What's so wrong with wanting your child to be the best in school?" or "Yeah, there's no way you can be socialized without partying and doing drugs" etc.
But how the hell can you have a social life if you only get to socialize in school, never get to participate in any activities with friends, and so on. Not to mention the fact that theater is just as important an art as music (though, not being a part of theater probably will decrease the chance that your child has lots of sex and does lots of drugs, so this one's almost acceptable if you're puritanical).
LMAO @ all of the people rejecting this article as nonsense simply because they don't want it to be true.
Sorry, but the "learning should be fun" culture has seen its zenith. In today's global economy, you're competing with EVERYONE IN THE WORLD who wants a job. You know who gets the best jobs? Just like in every other competition that ever existed: the people who want it more and prove it by trying harder. (I'm white by the way)
Asian parents simply push their kids to work harder in school, and frankly, it pays off. I would think that's obvious, but apparently not.
The fact of the matter is that 1) you can't convince most teenagers that they should want to learn and try really hard because it's rewarding... kids almost ALWAYS don't care about rewards unless they are immediate, nor can they understand the value of succeeding in school from a young age. 2) but you CAN let them know they better get A's or they'll get their ass kicked (metaphorically... i.e. threatening grounding, forced yardwork/cleaning, etc.). kids respond to that pressure... i know i did.
I'm convinced that 100% of people with an IQ over 95 can attain A's in all highschool courses if they put in the requisite amount of individual effort required. Obviously, for the really stupid kids, that might mean it's a full-time sunrise to sunset job, but it's possible. Again, it's just a matter of who wants it more.
Apparently the "Chinese mothers" want it more, and no doubt is it effective in getting results.
I wonder how old her children are because I'm sure as hell they went nuts and did all kinds of things their mom don't know about when they get to college.
I feel like all those restrictions would make you a socially inept when you get out in the real world. I'm Chinese and I'd say most of the chinese people (including myself) that I know are inferior to other people in terms of socializing. This might affect her kids less though because they are 2nd generation americans with educated parents, a american father and presumably live in a rich 'white' neighborhood.
I really hate how she categorize "success" to playing the piano/violin well. I guess her kids would be complete failures if they became the mozart of playing the guitar or something. Honestly every kid react to parenting differently and she lucked out in the sense that her kids wasn't the rebellious type and didn't disobey her. When I was a kid and my parents were going all "Chinese parenting" on me, I rebelled and would have none of it at some point. They would literally beat me, throw out my computer, lock me in a room with nothing but a desk with my homework in it, not give me any food/dinner (think I went like 2 days without food), and I'd just literally sit there and refuse to do it. I mean what else can a parent do short of literally starving/killing their kid if they absolutely refuse to? If "Chinese parenting" was so great, then shouldn't every kid in China get straight As with 0 "delinquents" children?
This is a horrible thing to say, but secretly I want her to give birth to one more kid and have that kid be horribly fucked up by her methods.
The key is that there must be a balancing act between the Chinese mothers and the Western mothers, but as you might gather from my prior post, I think that obviously the Chinese mothers are much closer to where the optimal point should be.
I've seen far too many smart enough kids drop out of highschool and fuck up college. It was never for a lack of ability, it was for a lack of desire.
And kids such at self-motivating. As a parent, it's your job to let your kid know that there are extremely undesirable consequences for not succeeding in academics. By the time they get to college, if you did it right, the kids will practically work hard out of habit, and a couple years after that, they'll understand why their parents pushed them.
The whole argument "if you oppress your kid when they're little, they go CRAZY when they go to college!" is totallllll bullshit.
I've known a ton of kids that were "oppressed" by their parents, and while they loosened up a lot, they still NEVER became fuckups, or even close to it.
This whole argument is based on some sort of urban legend. It's just not true.
I'm not sure how I feel about this. I'm just your average white guy in Chemistry at some non-descript undergrad university. That motivation did not come from my parents, however, that entirely came from within. I just find it difficult to see external motivation from parents working once the child leaves his or her house. I know it's POSSIBLE, but I can't imagine the success rate is fantastically high.
On a related note, I plan on going to graduate school for Chemistry (Gotten into one already, *fist pump!*), so I'm competing with many of these "Asian style" raised kids. One thing I've found, from a combination of experience and hearsay (nothing empirical, sorry), is that, on average, Asian students test INCREDIBLY well (hence why 50% or higher on the chem GRE for domestic students is considered good), but have poor creativity in making new projects and solving current problems. Furthermore, they tend to learn only one subsection of chemistry, so when they go to graduate school, where most research tends to have overlapping areas, they are very behind. Also their presentation skills tend to be poorer.
What I think I'm attempting to say is I don't think 100% academically focused upbringing is the best idea. Similarly, a complete disregard for academic performance is also not a good idea. I do think a heavy focus on academics is important, but so is focusing on the development of social skills, such as expressing oneself and interacting with other people (maybe something like 75% academics 25% social, things like that). Encouraging them to solve problems creatively is also something I would focus on, as well as making them understand that learning something new is a reward in and of itself.
On January 10 2011 05:10 Scap wrote: I'm not sure how I feel about this. I'm just your average white guy in Chemistry at some non-descript undergrad university. That motivation did not come from my parents, however, that entirely came from within.
My mother was strict with me, e.g. punishments for the almost insignificant offences, until I was 16 and then she let me make most of the decisions. I didn't need motivation to study hard; I found that within myself as you said. Although, because there's obviously a strong relationship between motivation and success, most children aren't going to find that motivation within themselves without encouragement from parents.
On January 10 2011 04:48 MforWW wrote: LMAO @ all of the people rejecting this article as nonsense simply because they don't want it to be true.
Sorry, but the "learning should be fun" culture has seen its zenith. In today's global economy, you're competing with EVERYONE IN THE WORLD who wants a job. You know who gets the best jobs? Just like in every other competition that ever existed: the people who want it more and prove it by trying harder. (I'm white by the way)
Asian parents simply push their kids to work harder in school, and frankly, it pays off. I would think that's obvious, but apparently not.
The fact of the matter is that 1) you can't convince most teenagers that they should want to learn and try really hard because it's rewarding... kids almost ALWAYS don't care about rewards unless they are immediate, nor can they understand the value of succeeding in school from a young age. 2) but you CAN let them know they better get A's or they'll get their ass kicked (metaphorically... i.e. threatening grounding, forced yardwork/cleaning, etc.). kids respond to that pressure... i know i did.
I'm convinced that 100% of people with an IQ over 95 can attain A's in all highschool courses if they put in the requisite amount of individual effort required. Obviously, for the really stupid kids, that might mean it's a full-time sunrise to sunset job, but it's possible. Again, it's just a matter of who wants it more.
Apparently the "Chinese mothers" want it more, and no doubt is it effective in getting results.
being mechanically proficient is not enough. the highest paying jobs in any field is management. management requires social skills and critical / abstract thinking. you can't grind your way into upper management by reading books or practicing drills. asian parents don't realize it but they are setting their children up for a life of mediocrity because they are not arming them with the skills it takes to go beyond mid-level employee. sure, you can live comfortably, but i'd like to think people live with more drive and purpose in mind other than grind school, grind work, and die. at the end of the day the highest you can go is only as high as a worker is allowed to unless you develop a different, more diverse, skill set.
On January 10 2011 04:48 MforWW wrote: LMAO @ all of the people rejecting this article as nonsense simply because they don't want it to be true.
Sorry, but the "learning should be fun" culture has seen its zenith. In today's global economy, you're competing with EVERYONE IN THE WORLD who wants a job. You know who gets the best jobs? Just like in every other competition that ever existed: the people who want it more and prove it by trying harder. (I'm white by the way)
Asian parents simply push their kids to work harder in school, and frankly, it pays off. I would think that's obvious, but apparently not.
The fact of the matter is that 1) you can't convince most teenagers that they should want to learn and try really hard because it's rewarding... kids almost ALWAYS don't care about rewards unless they are immediate, nor can they understand the value of succeeding in school from a young age. 2) but you CAN let them know they better get A's or they'll get their ass kicked (metaphorically... i.e. threatening grounding, forced yardwork/cleaning, etc.). kids respond to that pressure... i know i did.
I'm convinced that 100% of people with an IQ over 95 can attain A's in all highschool courses if they put in the requisite amount of individual effort required. Obviously, for the really stupid kids, that might mean it's a full-time sunrise to sunset job, but it's possible. Again, it's just a matter of who wants it more.
Apparently the "Chinese mothers" want it more, and no doubt is it effective in getting results.
being mechanically proficient is not enough. the highest paying jobs in any field is management. management requires social skills and critical / abstract thinking. you can't grind your way into upper management by reading books or practicing drills. asian parents don't realize it but they are setting their children up for a life of mediocrity because they are not arming them with the skills it takes to go beyond mid-level employee. sure, you can live comfortably, but i'd like to think people live with more drive and purpose in mind other than grind school, grind work, and die. at the end of the day the highest you can go is only as high as a worker is allowed to unless you develop a different, more diverse, skill set.
I actually agree with your point 100%, which is why I think there needs to be a more of a balance between the two styles of parenting. But I do believe that the so-called "chinese mothers" are closer to where parenting should be than the western mothers.
For example, it's been shown in a surprising amount of research lately that outdoors playtime is enormously beneficial for young kids (not sure why, but several studies have confirmed this. i've got my theories on it, but the fact is it's beneficial). Chinese mothers: "there's not enough time in the day for you to waste an hour playing outside. get back to playing the piano for 3 hours." Western mothers: "do whatever you want to do sweetie. enjoy staring at that TV!"
Obviously the ideal would be somewhere in between, where the parent says "stop being lazy and get your ass outside and play. come back in an hour"
This parenting method seems really great at pumping out "successful" obedient office drones that help fuel the Chinese economy. Downside is it seems to stifle creativity, but that doesn't matter anyway cause Chinese businessmen have adapted by stealing other people's ideas, and works. (ei. Chinese animation studios copy/pasting Japanese anime, Chinese tech companies are notorious for stealing Western software etc..)
On January 10 2011 04:48 MforWW wrote: LMAO @ all of the people rejecting this article as nonsense simply because they don't want it to be true.
Sorry, but the "learning should be fun" culture has seen its zenith. In today's global economy, you're competing with EVERYONE IN THE WORLD who wants a job. You know who gets the best jobs? Just like in every other competition that ever existed: the people who want it more and prove it by trying harder. (I'm white by the way)
Asian parents simply push their kids to work harder in school, and frankly, it pays off. I would think that's obvious, but apparently not.
The fact of the matter is that 1) you can't convince most teenagers that they should want to learn and try really hard because it's rewarding... kids almost ALWAYS don't care about rewards unless they are immediate, nor can they understand the value of succeeding in school from a young age. 2) but you CAN let them know they better get A's or they'll get their ass kicked (metaphorically... i.e. threatening grounding, forced yardwork/cleaning, etc.). kids respond to that pressure... i know i did.
I'm convinced that 100% of people with an IQ over 95 can attain A's in all highschool courses if they put in the requisite amount of individual effort required. Obviously, for the really stupid kids, that might mean it's a full-time sunrise to sunset job, but it's possible. Again, it's just a matter of who wants it more.
Apparently the "Chinese mothers" want it more, and no doubt is it effective in getting results.
being mechanically proficient is not enough. the highest paying jobs in any field is management. management requires social skills and critical / abstract thinking. you can't grind your way into upper management by reading books or practicing drills. asian parents don't realize it but they are setting their children up for a life of mediocrity because they are not arming them with the skills it takes to go beyond mid-level employee. sure, you can live comfortably, but i'd like to think people live with more drive and purpose in mind other than grind school, grind work, and die. at the end of the day the highest you can go is only as high as a worker is allowed to unless you develop a different, more diverse, skill set.
This man wins the thread.
A great education may help you get a job, but guess what's more important than getting a job? Pretty much everything else. Doing a job properly, keeping a job, advancing in a job. These things require intelligence and social aptitude, neither of which are being developed by forcing your children to live like slaves.
On January 10 2011 04:48 MforWW wrote: LMAO @ all of the people rejecting this article as nonsense simply because they don't want it to be true.
Sorry, but the "learning should be fun" culture has seen its zenith. In today's global economy, you're competing with EVERYONE IN THE WORLD who wants a job. You know who gets the best jobs? Just like in every other competition that ever existed: the people who want it more and prove it by trying harder. (I'm white by the way)
Asian parents simply push their kids to work harder in school, and frankly, it pays off. I would think that's obvious, but apparently not.
The fact of the matter is that 1) you can't convince most teenagers that they should want to learn and try really hard because it's rewarding... kids almost ALWAYS don't care about rewards unless they are immediate, nor can they understand the value of succeeding in school from a young age. 2) but you CAN let them know they better get A's or they'll get their ass kicked (metaphorically... i.e. threatening grounding, forced yardwork/cleaning, etc.). kids respond to that pressure... i know i did.
I'm convinced that 100% of people with an IQ over 95 can attain A's in all highschool courses if they put in the requisite amount of individual effort required. Obviously, for the really stupid kids, that might mean it's a full-time sunrise to sunset job, but it's possible. Again, it's just a matter of who wants it more.
Apparently the "Chinese mothers" want it more, and no doubt is it effective in getting results.
being mechanically proficient is not enough. the highest paying jobs in any field is management. management requires social skills and critical / abstract thinking. you can't grind your way into upper management by reading books or practicing drills. asian parents don't realize it but they are setting their children up for a life of mediocrity because they are not arming them with the skills it takes to go beyond mid-level employee. sure, you can live comfortably, but i'd like to think people live with more drive and purpose in mind other than grind school, grind work, and die. at the end of the day the highest you can go is only as high as a worker is allowed to unless you develop a different, more diverse, skill set.
This man wins the thread.
A great education may help you get a job, but guess what's more important than getting a job? Pretty much everything else. Doing a job properly, keeping a job, advancing in a job. These things require intelligence and social aptitude, neither of which are being developed by forcing your children to live like slaves.
On January 10 2011 04:48 MforWW wrote: LMAO @ all of the people rejecting this article as nonsense simply because they don't want it to be true.
Sorry, but the "learning should be fun" culture has seen its zenith. In today's global economy, you're competing with EVERYONE IN THE WORLD who wants a job. You know who gets the best jobs? Just like in every other competition that ever existed: the people who want it more and prove it by trying harder. (I'm white by the way)
Asian parents simply push their kids to work harder in school, and frankly, it pays off. I would think that's obvious, but apparently not.
The fact of the matter is that 1) you can't convince most teenagers that they should want to learn and try really hard because it's rewarding... kids almost ALWAYS don't care about rewards unless they are immediate, nor can they understand the value of succeeding in school from a young age. 2) but you CAN let them know they better get A's or they'll get their ass kicked (metaphorically... i.e. threatening grounding, forced yardwork/cleaning, etc.). kids respond to that pressure... i know i did.
I'm convinced that 100% of people with an IQ over 95 can attain A's in all highschool courses if they put in the requisite amount of individual effort required. Obviously, for the really stupid kids, that might mean it's a full-time sunrise to sunset job, but it's possible. Again, it's just a matter of who wants it more.
Apparently the "Chinese mothers" want it more, and no doubt is it effective in getting results.
being mechanically proficient is not enough. the highest paying jobs in any field is management. management requires social skills and critical / abstract thinking. you can't grind your way into upper management by reading books or practicing drills. asian parents don't realize it but they are setting their children up for a life of mediocrity because they are not arming them with the skills it takes to go beyond mid-level employee. sure, you can live comfortably, but i'd like to think people live with more drive and purpose in mind other than grind school, grind work, and die. at the end of the day the highest you can go is only as high as a worker is allowed to unless you develop a different, more diverse, skill set.
<3
Thanks for this post. I didn't have the statistics to back up what I've been saying before (couldn't find them on google lol), but now that I do, it closely reflects my experience with Asians who have been brought up the way Amy described them. No, they aren't emotionally unstable or unable to socially interact at all, most of them settle down with a family and live standard 9-5 lives comfy and secure, but very few of them make it past middle management and truly succeed.
And working a 9-5 job making 100,000 something income is fine if you have cultivated a wide variety of other interests, hobbies, and friends along the way, but these people haven't, so they usually devote all there energy towards there family, specifically there children, with the mindset if that if they force there kids to work harder, they'll be more successful, perpetuating the cycle of mediocrity.
btw im asian :p. And I'm pretty disgusted by families who do this to there kids.
There have been economic studies which show the best way to entice some one to achieve a goal is not through incentive based bonuses. Carrot-on-a-stick rewards only work in very simple scenarios, eg. I will pay you more money for every extra carton of fruit you pick. When the task becomes slightly more complex, these incentives stifle creative thinking and the people under the highest pressure to perform (ie. offered the highest incentive reward) are the ones who perform worst.
Another study analysed a group of preschool children (I believe these were children living in America) at the age of 4 who were asked to come up with as many uses for a paper clip as possible. On average, the children were able to come up with over 100 uses each. They would also make 'strange' leaps of logic and ask if the paper clip could be the size of a planet or if it was made of cheese. These same children were re-tested IIRC 2 years later, and then 2 years later again. The average amount of uses for a paper clip decreased incrementally at each stage of testing until at the age of 9 the average result was 20. The hypothesis explaining this decline was the education system these children were placed taught them a very strict 'there is one answer to each problem' type of logic. Those children who conformed to this logic are rewarded with the highest grades, creating a positive feed-back loop to stifle creativity and only strive to find the answer the teacher wants.
I believe this sort of analogy applies to the children of "Chinese Mothers", who raise their kids to be the extreme example of children used in these studies. I have seen anecdotes that generally those raised in such a manner struggle when faced with new challenges that do not fit within the bounds of what they have been made to study. They do not have the best approach to tackling new tasks because they are often only focused on the result, rather than on the how or why.
Asians are underrepresented among executives because business school is not typically the path that most Asians take, and that is the preferred path in America to becoming an executive.
East Asia is full of Asian mothers that behave like their Asian-American counterparts. Yet you'll find plenty of successful businesses there, run by successful Asians. So it's more a matter of Asian culture not adapting to American business culture, not some ridiculous, unfounded assertion that strict Asian mothers produce Asian drones incapable of thinking creatively. Which is borderline racist, I might add.
Also, that chart is stupid within the context of this discussion. Vietnamese and Filipinos are less successful than CJK's, so why include them in the general population? Go do a chart on African-Americans. The reason they are underrepresented amongst executives is not because of their strict mothers or the fact that they are mindless drones; it's because a lot of them are poor and uneducated.
On January 10 2011 07:25 domovoi wrote: Asians are underrepresented among executives because business school is not typically the path that most Asians take, and that is the preferred path in America to becoming an executive.
Why don't they take that path? When one dedicates ones young adulthood to being "successful", and nothing else, why would one not take the path that would actually result in success as opposed to merely a comfortable mediocrity.
If they refuse business school simply because they dislike its practice, then its hypocritical to the core values wherein one ignores ones inert aptitudes and preference in favor of the most surest road to success. Or they refuse because they don't believe they'll be as successful, which begs the question why.
Also, that chart is stupid within the context of this discussion. Vietnamese and Filipinos are less successful than CJK's, so why include them in the general population? Go do a chart on African-Americans. The reason they are underrepresented amongst executives is not because of their strict mothers or the fact that they are mindless drones; it's because a lot of them are poor and uneducated.
Median Household Income: 2004. Indians $88,538[35] Filipinos $75,146[36] Chinese $69,037[37] Japanese $64,197[38] Koreans $53,025
Dunno think you might be a bit racist cuz you automatically assume Filipinoes are automatically more poor then the rest.
Stats for Vietnamese are a tad bit lower, 51k, but that isn't so disparate considering the fact that Vietnamese Americans make up a minority of Asian Americans to the point where it would skew statistics.
On January 10 2011 07:33 Half wrote: Why don't they take that path? When one dedicates ones young adulthood to being "successful", and nothing else, why would one not take the path that would actually result in success as opposed to merely a comfortable mediocrity.
If they refuse business school simply because they dislike its practice, then its hypocritical to the core values wherein one ignores ones inert aptitudes and preference in favor of the most surest road to success. Or they refuse because they don't believe they'll be as successful, which begs the question why.
The path through business school is not the surest path. Sure, if you can get into a good B-school, you're doing pretty well. But it's much safer to get an engineering degree during undegrad rather than a business-related degree; ones employment prospects are often better, even if the B-school route has a higher upper-end.
I think memes also play a role; for example, Asian Americans used to disregard law as a valid path of success, but that has changed in recent years, and Asian representation amongst elite law firms is increasing.
On January 10 2011 06:26 sc4k wrote: Some really interesting posts there ^
Might also explain why the Chinese have so many great classical music performers but so few good composers.
Actually most Asian classical music performers are pretty uncreative as well, most of them just execute the explicitly written music well, I haven't heard any yet that really made me think "wow this guy has some good ideas". Maybe this is just because of the European tradition of classical music.
The path through business school is not the surest path
To making 100,000k-150k a year, no it isn't. But even eschewing CEO positions, it certainly is the fastest past to actual wealth as opposed to upper middle class.
So you're saying that its an economical and wise decision to throw away ones childhood and young adulthood, making less professional relationships that are invaluable in ones later career as well, for a path that guarantees mediocrity? In the end, I guarantee you every single one of Amy's higher payed and substantially wealthier superiors and cohorts on the collegiate board had a more substantial childhood, didn't work as hard (in terms of mechanical studying) and how has a higher salary. She now calls them boss.
On January 10 2011 07:33 Half wrote: Dunno think you might be a bit racist cuz you automatically assume Filipinoes are automatically more poor then the rest.
Stats for Vietnamese are a tad bit lower, 51k, but that isn't so disparate considering the fact that Vietnamese Americans make up a minority of Asian Americans to the point where it would skew statistics.
The pie chart is for Silicon Valley. Unfortunately, I don't have time to look for demographic stats for Silicon Valley, but if you could find them, I would appreciate it. I might be wrong about that point, but my impression is that the Valley's CJK's are a lot better off than their Southeast Asian counterparts (mostly Vietnamese).
On January 09 2011 08:37 maka.albarn wrote: The kids might be child prodegies but by the time they reach college they drop out or fail misarably because they don't have their mommy
Hahaha. Story of my life. Btw my Chinese mother's spelling lessons tell me that the word you're looking for is "prodigy."
my spelling lessons also tell me that it is "miserably", and that the third sentence does not belong because he used two conjunctions in a row.
On January 10 2011 07:21 LilClinkin wrote: There have been economic studies which show the best way to entice some one to achieve a goal is not through incentive based bonuses. Carrot-on-a-stick rewards only work in very simple scenarios, eg. I will pay you more money for every extra carton of fruit you pick. When the task becomes slightly more complex, these incentives stifle creative thinking and the people under the highest pressure to perform (ie. offered the highest incentive reward) are the ones who perform worst.
Another study analysed a group of preschool children (I believe these were children living in America) at the age of 4 who were asked to come up with as many uses for a paper clip as possible. On average, the children were able to come up with over 100 uses each. They would also make 'strange' leaps of logic and ask if the paper clip could be the size of a planet or if it was made of cheese. These same children were re-tested IIRC 2 years later, and then 2 years later again. The average amount of uses for a paper clip decreased incrementally at each stage of testing until at the age of 9 the average result was 20. The hypothesis explaining this decline was the education system these children were placed taught them a very strict 'there is one answer to each problem' type of logic. Those children who conformed to this logic are rewarded with the highest grades, creating a positive feed-back loop to stifle creativity and only strive to find the answer the teacher wants.
I believe this sort of analogy applies to the children of "Chinese Mothers", who raise their kids to be the extreme example of children used in these studies. I have seen anecdotes that generally those raised in such a manner struggle when faced with new challenges that do not fit within the bounds of what they have been made to study. They do not have the best approach to tackling new tasks because they are often only focused on the result, rather than on the how or why.
The moment they pick up Integration, they would've learned how there's more than one answer... even as early as drawing a graph and all points such that...
They were 'peculiar' ? those children who were creative...?
The path through business school is not the surest path
To making 100,000k-150k a year, no it isn't. But even eschewing CEO positions, it certainly is the fastest past to actual wealth as opposed to upper middle class.
People have varying levels of risk-aversion. It's difficult to say which one is better than the other. Make a sure six figures, or have a low chance of making executive?
So you're saying that its an economical and wise decision to throw away ones childhood and young adulthood, making less professional relationships that are invaluable in ones later career as well, for a path that guarantees mediocrity?
This is silly and near racist. Nobody I grew up with threw away their childhood, we simply had different preferences and varying amounts of discipline. There's no evidence "strict Asian mothers" create less professional relationships. And to say engineering is a path that "guarantees mediocrity" is ignorant and silly. It's not the best path (though a reasonably good one) to extreme riches, but you insult the entire TL.net board (which has more engineering-types than business-types) by claiming it is a path of mediocrity.
In the end, I guarantee you every single one of Amy's higher payed and substantially wealthier superiors and cohorts on the collegiate board had a more substantial childhood, didn't work as hard (in terms of mechanical studying) and how has a higher salary. She now calls them boss.
And I guarantee you that most of Amy's white classmates also had a more substantial childhood and are nowhere near as successful as she is.
This is silly and near racist. Nobody I grew up with threw away their childhood, we simply had different preferences and varying amounts of discipline. There's no evidence "strict Asian mothers" create less professional relationships. And to say engineering is a path that "guarantees mediocrity" is ignorant and silly. It's not the best path (though a reasonably good one) to extreme riches, but you insult the entire TL.net board (which has more engineering-types than business-types) by claiming it is a path of mediocrity.
I'm talking about the Parenting outlined by Amy in the OP. Not having a single playmate constitutes throwing out your childhood. Perhaps your experiences are different. I am not talking about those experiences.
And as I said
And working a 9-5 job making 100,000 something income is fine if you have cultivated a wide variety of other interests, hobbies, and friends along the way, but these people haven't, so they usually devote all there energy towards there family, specifically there children, with the mindset if that if they force there kids to work harder, they'll be more successful, perpetuating the cycle of mediocrity.
If you sacrifice your entire childhood and young adulthood, which Amy (not you, not your friends), evidently did, only to aspire to comfortable mediocrity, thats frankly quite pathetic.
Do you think Amy has any activities beyond working and being a tyrant to her children even today? I doubt it, and it isn't because she doesn't have time for it anymore.
But stop projecting. I'm not saying emphasizing discipline on your child is bad or that all asian parents are evil.
On January 10 2011 04:48 MforWW wrote: LMAO @ all of the people rejecting this article as nonsense simply because they don't want it to be true.
Sorry, but the "learning should be fun" culture has seen its zenith. In today's global economy, you're competing with EVERYONE IN THE WORLD who wants a job. You know who gets the best jobs? Just like in every other competition that ever existed: the people who want it more and prove it by trying harder. (I'm white by the way)
Asian parents simply push their kids to work harder in school, and frankly, it pays off. I would think that's obvious, but apparently not.
The fact of the matter is that 1) you can't convince most teenagers that they should want to learn and try really hard because it's rewarding... kids almost ALWAYS don't care about rewards unless they are immediate, nor can they understand the value of succeeding in school from a young age. 2) but you CAN let them know they better get A's or they'll get their ass kicked (metaphorically... i.e. threatening grounding, forced yardwork/cleaning, etc.). kids respond to that pressure... i know i did.
I'm convinced that 100% of people with an IQ over 95 can attain A's in all highschool courses if they put in the requisite amount of individual effort required. Obviously, for the really stupid kids, that might mean it's a full-time sunrise to sunset job, but it's possible. Again, it's just a matter of who wants it more.
Apparently the "Chinese mothers" want it more, and no doubt is it effective in getting results.
being mechanically proficient is not enough. the highest paying jobs in any field is management. management requires social skills and critical / abstract thinking. you can't grind your way into upper management by reading books or practicing drills. asian parents don't realize it but they are setting their children up for a life of mediocrity because they are not arming them with the skills it takes to go beyond mid-level employee. sure, you can live comfortably, but i'd like to think people live with more drive and purpose in mind other than grind school, grind work, and die. at the end of the day the highest you can go is only as high as a worker is allowed to unless you develop a different, more diverse, skill set.
This man wins the thread.
A great education may help you get a job, but guess what's more important than getting a job? Pretty much everything else. Doing a job properly, keeping a job, advancing in a job. These things require intelligence and social aptitude, neither of which are being developed by forcing your children to live like slaves.
I agree that social aptitude is important, and its development should be encouraged. However, intelligence (at least as I think you're using the word) is inherent and immutable.
if you were to ask all of the high school math and science teachers in this country watching American students flunk out of those subjects, do you REALLY think they'd say "You know what we need? What we need is more creativity!" Hell no. They'd say they need their students showing up with their homework completed (hell, half of the kids are too lazy to even copy it from somebody else who actually did it). They'd say that they need their kids to give a shit what grade they get in a class, since they can't teach somebody that doesn't want to learn. They'd say the kids need to stop falling asleep in class, because their parents let them stay up too late playing video games. //my gf is a middle school math teacher
Basically you can't teach somebody that doesn't want to learn, and kids don't want to learn unless they're pushed to do it (with the exception of a moderately sized minority). The motivation HAS to stem from the parents, since these kids won't generate it themselves. But western parents haven't been stepping up to the plate, and their kids suffer as a result.
edit: and just for clarity I'm not saying America needs to drastically change its culture and eliminate all creativity. Not by any stretch of the imagination. But what I AM saying is that western parents are failing to properly motivate their children, and that asian parents in general do a much better job of that. Western parents, if they want to raise kids that can compete in a global economy, NEED to adapt their strategy.
Basically you can't teach somebody that doesn't want to learn, and kids don't want to learn unless they're pushed to do it (with the exception of a moderately sized minority). The motivation HAS to stem from the parents, since these kids won't generate it themselves. But western parents haven't been stepping up to the plate, and their kids suffer as a result.
Haha lolwut? Most extremely successful men and women were self motivated as Children, (Bill Gates and Zuckleberg would be good examples), and they became self motivated because they grew up in families that valued and encouraged personal development and intelligence.
Those public school kids flunk out because they grow up in lower income families where intellect and personal academic development are simply not environmentally valued.
What I don't get is why people always measures worth in how much money you make. I would hate to have been treated like the children of that article, that doesn't mean my parents didn't have rules. Infact I wasn't allowed to drink/smoke untill I turned 18 and when I broke the drinking promise I wasn't allowed into the house for 2 days. (I did find out later that my dad followed me around on his motorcycle to see that I didn't do anything stupid, but I learnt my lesson sure as hell).
Isn't the mark of succses doing what YOU love making a living out of that? My mother doesn't make millions every year, but she makes more than enough and she sometimes can not wait to get to work, that she rushes out of bed long before her work day begins just to get something done. Isn't that really what being succsesful is all about?
Her boyfriend runs a company with buisnesses in 4 countrys and he spends his days stressed out as all hell, I wouldn't call him more succsesful than my mom, even if he gets a much higher salary, because I've seen how stressed he is.
So what I don't get if you force your kids into these kinds of things, how are they supposed to find that thing that they love doing?
Basically you can't teach somebody that doesn't want to learn, and kids don't want to learn unless they're pushed to do it (with the exception of a moderately sized minority). The motivation HAS to stem from the parents, since these kids won't generate it themselves. But western parents haven't been stepping up to the plate, and their kids suffer as a result.
Haha lolwut? Most extremely successful men and women were self motivated as Children, (Bill Gates and Zuckleberg would be good examples), and they became self motivated because they grew up in families that valued and encouraged personal development and intelligence.
Those public school kids flunk out because they grow up in lower income families where intellect and personal academic development are simply not environmentally valued.
I don't often like to dish out snide remarks, but you obviously didn't read what I said. Notice where I said "with the exception of a moderately sized minority"? Yeah, that was referring to the Bill Gates and Zuckelberg *sic* types. Obviously the American teaching system has failed once again, as reading comprehension doesn't appear to be your strong point.
Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top.
While this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions. I think one of the biggest take home messages is the different ways China and America view hard work:
For many things, Americans think "you either have it or you don't", while Chinese people think "anyone can have it if they work hard". A good example is math. You hear Americans use phrases like "He's a mathwhiz" or "She's a natural". This is bad for motivation because people who aren't "mathwhizzes" are discouraged and don't want to practice math because they weren't born with math skill. It even ends up being bad for the "mathwhizzes", because when they reach a point where math is difficult, they get frustrated and discouraged, because they aren't used to having to practice to do well in math. The Chinese attitude is much better for everyone's motivation. Even the worst kid in the class is motivated to practice because he believes that if practices enough, he can be the best. And this is basically true, and is probably a big contributor to the fact that by 5th grade, the top performing American classroom is being outperformed by the bottom performing Chinese classroom in math.
Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top.
While this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions. I think one of the biggest take home messages is the different ways China and America view hard work:
For many things, Americans think "you either have it or you don't", while Chinese people think "anyone can have it if they work hard". A good example is math. You hear Americans use phrases like "He's a mathwhiz" or "She's a natural". This is bad for motivation because people who aren't "mathwhizzes" are discouraged and don't want to practice math because they weren't born with math skill. It even ends up being bad for the "mathwhizzes", because when they reach a point where math is difficult, they get frustrated and discouraged, because they aren't used to having to practice to do well in math. The Chinese attitude is much better for everyone's motivation. Even the worst kid in the class is motivated to practice because he believes that if practices enough, he can be the best. And this is basically true, and is probably a big contributor to the fact that by 5th grade, the top performing American classroom is being outperformed by the bottom performing Chinese classroom in math.
Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top.
While this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions. I think one of the biggest take home messages is the different ways China and America view hard work:
For many things, Americans think "you either have it or you don't", while Chinese people think "anyone can have it if they work hard". A good example is math. You hear Americans use phrases like "He's a mathwhiz" or "She's a natural". This is bad for motivation because people who aren't "mathwhizzes" are discouraged and don't want to practice math because they weren't born with math skill. It even ends up being bad for the "mathwhizzes", because when they reach a point where math is difficult, they get frustrated and discouraged, because they aren't used to having to practice to do well in math. The Chinese attitude is much better for everyone's motivation. Even the worst kid in the class is motivated to practice because he believes that if practices enough, he can be the best. And this is basically true, and is probably a big contributor to the fact that by 5th grade, the top performing American classroom is being outperformed by the bottom performing Chinese classroom in math.
Basically you can't teach somebody that doesn't want to learn, and kids don't want to learn unless they're pushed to do it (with the exception of a moderately sized minority). The motivation HAS to stem from the parents, since these kids won't generate it themselves. But western parents haven't been stepping up to the plate, and their kids suffer as a result.
Haha lolwut? Most extremely successful men and women were self motivated as Children, (Bill Gates and Zuckleberg would be good examples), and they became self motivated because they grew up in families that valued and encouraged personal development and intelligence.
Those public school kids flunk out because they grow up in lower income families where intellect and personal academic development are simply not environmentally valued.
I don't often like to dish out snide remarks, but you obviously didn't read what I said. Notice where I said "with the exception of a moderately sized minority"? Yeah, that was referring to the Bill Gates and Zuckelberg *sic* types. Obviously the American teaching system has failed once again, as reading comprehension doesn't appear to be your strong point.
You act like these minorities are from the same demographic as the kids who fail in highschool. Your simply comparing income classes.
Kids who can be internally motivated aren't "special". They're the natural result of a health parental environment.
Kids emulate there parents, they draw confidence from there parents, there goals are what the parent values. The Reason why Asian kids need so much force to get them to do anything, and why they aren't internally motivated is because most of there parents are hollow with very few interests other then the success of there kids. Do you think a Mother who is adept at the Piano and is genuinely interest in music, or a dad who loves literature and discusses it with there kids would need to excessive force to coerce there kids into having similar academic interests? No, they don't.
Basically you can't teach somebody that doesn't want to learn, and kids don't want to learn unless they're pushed to do it (with the exception of a moderately sized minority). The motivation HAS to stem from the parents, since these kids won't generate it themselves. But western parents haven't been stepping up to the plate, and their kids suffer as a result.
Haha lolwut? Most extremely successful men and women were self motivated as Children, (Bill Gates and Zuckleberg would be good examples), and they became self motivated because they grew up in families that valued and encouraged personal development and intelligence.
Those public school kids flunk out because they grow up in lower income families where intellect and personal academic development are simply not environmentally valued.
I don't often like to dish out snide remarks, but you obviously didn't read what I said. Notice where I said "with the exception of a moderately sized minority"? Yeah, that was referring to the Bill Gates and Zuckelberg *sic* types. Obviously the American teaching system has failed once again, as reading comprehension doesn't appear to be your strong point.
Kids who can be internally motivated aren't "special". There the natural result of a health parental environment.
Kids emulate there parents, they draw confidence from there parents, there goals are what the parent values. The Reason why Asian kids need so much force to get them to do anything, and why they aren't internally motivated is because most of there parents are hollow with very few interests other then the success of there kids. Do you think a Mother who is adept at the Piano and is genuinely interest in music, or a dad who loves literature and discusses it with there kids would need to excessive force to coerce there kids into having similar academic interests? No, they don't.
Basically you can't teach somebody that doesn't want to learn, and kids don't want to learn unless they're pushed to do it (with the exception of a moderately sized minority). The motivation HAS to stem from the parents, since these kids won't generate it themselves. But western parents haven't been stepping up to the plate, and their kids suffer as a result.
Haha lolwut? Most extremely successful men and women were self motivated as Children, (Bill Gates and Zuckleberg would be good examples), and they became self motivated because they grew up in families that valued and encouraged personal development and intelligence.
Those public school kids flunk out because they grow up in lower income families where intellect and personal academic development are simply not environmentally valued.
I don't often like to dish out snide remarks, but you obviously didn't read what I said. Notice where I said "with the exception of a moderately sized minority"? Yeah, that was referring to the Bill Gates and Zuckelberg *sic* types. Obviously the American teaching system has failed once again, as reading comprehension doesn't appear to be your strong point.
Kids who can be internally motivated aren't "special". There the natural result of a health parental environment.
Kids emulate there parents, they draw confidence from there parents, there goals are what the parent values. The Reason why Asian kids need so much force to get them to do anything, and why they aren't internally motivated is because most of there parents are hollow with very few interests other then the success of there kids. Do you think a Mother who is adept at the Piano and is genuinely interest in music, or a dad who loves literature and discusses it with there kids would need to excessive force to coerce there kids into having similar academic interests? No, they don't.
You know what I would like a Citation for? A single Psychological studying promoting the kind of parenting in the OP.
But I guess Psychology isn't a real science and is just a bunch of western garbage amirite (A common belief among Asians)
The reason why Western parenting gets a bad rep is because so many people are so horribly inept at it. As opposed to Chinese parenting, which really requires nothing more then making love a conditional reward for performance.
Basically you can't teach somebody that doesn't want to learn, and kids don't want to learn unless they're pushed to do it (with the exception of a moderately sized minority). The motivation HAS to stem from the parents, since these kids won't generate it themselves. But western parents haven't been stepping up to the plate, and their kids suffer as a result.
Haha lolwut? Most extremely successful men and women were self motivated as Children, (Bill Gates and Zuckleberg would be good examples), and they became self motivated because they grew up in families that valued and encouraged personal development and intelligence.
Those public school kids flunk out because they grow up in lower income families where intellect and personal academic development are simply not environmentally valued.
I don't often like to dish out snide remarks, but you obviously didn't read what I said. Notice where I said "with the exception of a moderately sized minority"? Yeah, that was referring to the Bill Gates and Zuckelberg *sic* types. Obviously the American teaching system has failed once again, as reading comprehension doesn't appear to be your strong point.
Notice how I quote a very select portion of your post rather then the entire thing?
You act like these minorities are from the same demographic as the kids who fail in highschool. Your simply comparing income classes.
Kids who can be internally motivated aren't "special". There the natural result of a health parental environment.
Kids emulate there parents, they draw confidence from there parents, there goals are what the parent values. The Reason why Asian kids need so much force to get them to do anything, and why they aren't internally motivated is because most of there parents are hollow with very few interests other then the success of there kids. Do you think a Mother who is adept at the Piano and is genuinely interest in music, or a dad who loves literature and discusses it with there kids would need to excessive force to coerce there kids into having similar academic interests? No, they don't.
I would say that yes kids to emulate their parents...but I wouldn't go as far as saying that kids would be better if the parents were smart, good at literature, etc. Back in high school I was good friends with some of the teachers. One thing that they all complained about was connection between the troubling kids and the parents. Now the teachers I was friends with were AP and honor teachers, and our school was not bad or ghetto. The connection was that the parents (snobby above-average wealth type, but nonethless intelligent people) would "refuse" to believe that their kids (probably thought the kid was superior than everyone else) was doing so bad in class academically. The parents bitched and complained forcing the teachers (to not lose job and by orders of the incompetent administrators) to conform and making the kid pass with unworthy grades (xtra credit, etc.). The problem comes from kids abusing the broken education system by taking advantage of the parents and coercing the teachers. THAT is why I don't wanna be a teacher. THAT is why people complain about the system.
On January 10 2011 08:21 Hynda wrote: What I don't get is why people always measures worth in how much money you make. I would hate to have been treated like the children of that article, that doesn't mean my parents didn't have rules. Infact I wasn't allowed to drink/smoke untill I turned 18 and when I broke the drinking promise I wasn't allowed into the house for 2 days. (I did find out later that my dad followed me around on his motorcycle to see that I didn't do anything stupid, but I learnt my lesson sure as hell).
Isn't the mark of succses doing what YOU love making a living out of that? My mother doesn't make millions every year, but she makes more than enough and she sometimes can not wait to get to work, that she rushes out of bed long before her work day begins just to get something done. Isn't that really what being succsesful is all about?
Her boyfriend runs a company with buisnesses in 4 countrys and he spends his days stressed out as all hell, I wouldn't call him more succsesful than my mom, even if he gets a much higher salary, because I've seen how stressed he is.
So what I don't get if you force your kids into these kinds of things, how are they supposed to find that thing that they love doing?
I think thats what its about. "Western cultures focus on doing things that you like, while "Chinese" cultures focus on more "productive" things. I couldn't find a better word that productive. The management program at my school is like 1% white people, if that. On the other hand, courses like womens studies or like art history has like 1 chinese kid in it max, if you're lucky. Basically when chinese parents have a kid, they're thinking lawyer, doctor, business man, accountant, engineer.
Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top.
While this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions. I think one of the biggest take home messages is the different ways China and America view hard work:
For many things, Americans think "you either have it or you don't", while Chinese people think "anyone can have it if they work hard". A good example is math. You hear Americans use phrases like "He's a mathwhiz" or "She's a natural". This is bad for motivation because people who aren't "mathwhizzes" are discouraged and don't want to practice math because they weren't born with math skill. It even ends up being bad for the "mathwhizzes", because when they reach a point where math is difficult, they get frustrated and discouraged, because they aren't used to having to practice to do well in math. The Chinese attitude is much better for everyone's motivation. Even the worst kid in the class is motivated to practice because he believes that if practices enough, he can be the best. And this is basically true, and is probably a big contributor to the fact that by 5th grade, the top performing American classroom is being outperformed by the bottom performing Chinese classroom in math.
+1,000,000 for this post
There's a psycho bitch terrorizing and traumatizing her kids, and saying it's the best parenting method, and we're all close-minded for being put off.
If you want to instill proper work ethic into a kid, there are far better ways to do it than through fear and coercion. Such a method would only work on a percentage (and probably not a large one) of kids. Many others would crack or completely break down once they are no longer under the influence of such a parent.
A lot of Chinese parents are like the woman who wrote the article, and it's just wrong, pure and simple. These parents who practice terror and coercion dogmatically are the true close-minded ones. Different kids require different parenting methods. If you don't have enough empathy to understand this, I'm not sure whether to feel sorry or contempt for you.
lol, are people seriously considering defending this article? I mean, I can supply studies on why her 'education' or her children isn't a good idea, but I would've hoped anyone with the remotest amount of sense could figure that out by reading the article.
This isn't about lax vs. authoritative parenting either. It's been shown that authoritative parenting correlates with high self esteem in kids, I'm not bashing on stricter ways of parenting in general, but what this woman's doing can't be called parenting.
On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote: Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top.
So, did you read even just a little bit of the thread at all with all the Chinese posters (such as myself) who were raised Chinese chiming in about how awful it is and listing specific reasons before hurrying to type another pretentious accusation of cultural bias and join the article's author in claiming educational superiority?
thing is chinese parents dont want their kids dealing with stress and having no life when they grow up. its better to have this as a kid as u dont think as much and more easily happy, thus u learn more at a faster pace. As u develop these skills u dont regret all that hardwork and are ahead in classes. Conclusion: earlier motivational success = better future for children.
On January 10 2011 09:10 Hamster wrote: thing is chinese parents dont want their kids dealing with stress and having no life when they grow up. its better to have this as a kid as u dont think as much and more easily happy, thus u learn more at a faster pace. As u develop these skills u dont regret all that hardwork and are ahead in classes. Conclusion: earlier motivational success = better future for children.
Yeah and what skills will the child develop? The ability to produce good grades with someone forcing and hollering at them every step of the way. And what happens when the parent is no longer there? The child is not self motivated and with no one pointing a gun to his head anymore, do you think he'll continue to work his ass off for something he never wanted in the first place??
Yeah motivation and hard work is good. But the "parenting" method of those "hardcore" parents instill the opposite of motivation in their children.
On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote: Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top.
So, did you read even just a little bit of the thread at all with all the Chinese posters (such as myself) who were raised Chinese chiming in about how awful it is and listing specific reasons before hurrying to type another pretentious accusation of cultural bias and join the article's author in claiming educational superiority?
99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes, parroting American cultural norms without citing any sources. To be honest, I'm not too familiar with the scientific research on this subject, but I can at least see that China is getting results and America isn't.
You have to drop your assumptions in this thread. You can't just say "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." This is a useless sentence that doesn't add anything to the discussion. This is how you should do it:
"using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." Reputable* Source A: www... Reputable* Source B: www...
*Reputable meaning a peer-reviewed scientific journal or a .gov site, not Oprah.com or AmericanParentingIsTheBest.com
This is much more constructive and stimulating to the discussion. Telling us all about how your friend is Asian and he is not successful is not.
On January 10 2011 09:06 CheekyDuck wrote: Woot! Go Chinese ^_______^
And to all these people claiming that Asians will lose all motivation as soon as their mommies aren't around, why don't we see a huge dropoff in the number of successful Asians between High School and College? This would be the easiest and most obvious way to confirm that hypothesis, yet we don't see this predicted dropoff.
The motivation obviously becomes intrinsic at some point, probably because the student does well because of his hard work and is praised for it and thus is motivated to work hard in the future (as is discussed in the original article).
On January 10 2011 09:10 Hamster wrote: thing is chinese parents dont want their kids dealing with stress and having no life when they grow up. its better to have this as a kid as u dont think as much and more easily happy, thus u learn more at a faster pace. As u develop these skills u dont regret all that hardwork and are ahead in classes. Conclusion: earlier motivational success = better future for children.
Yeah and what skills will the child develop? The ability to produce good grades with someone forcing and hollering at them every step of the way. And what happens when the parent is no longer there? The child is not self motivated and with no one pointing a gun to his head anymore, do you think he'll continue to work his ass off for something he never wanted in the first place??
Yeah motivation and hard work is good. But the "parenting" method of those "hardcore" parents instill the opposite of motivation in their children.
yes, the ability to get good grades and go to uni. chinese parents will punish if the kid has not a motivational of his own will after all the lectures they give their children.although it does instill the opposite motivation of children, the ability to suceed is still far greater than to fail. I dont disagree these parenting methods are wrong but that parents should not choose the future of their children (medicine, dentistry, accountant) and i think that chinese parents should encourage positive motivation in the child's interests and talents.
On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote: Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top.
So, did you read even just a little bit of the thread at all with all the Chinese posters (such as myself) who were raised Chinese chiming in about how awful it is and listing specific reasons before hurrying to type another pretentious accusation of cultural bias and join the article's author in claiming educational superiority?
99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes, parroting American cultural norms without citing any sources. To be honest, I'm not too familiar with the scientific research on this subject, but I can at least see that China is getting results and America isn't.
You have to drop your assumptions in this thread. You can't just say "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." This is a useless sentence that doesn't add anything to the discussion. This is how you should do it:
"using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." Reputable* Source A: www... Reputable* Source B: www...
*Reputable meaning a peer-reviewed scientific journal or a .gov site, not Oprah.com or AmericanParentingIsTheBest.com
This is much more constructive and stimulating to the discussion. Telling us all about how your friend is Asian and he is not successful is not.
You do realize the very article you're defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims?
I am very amused however that you call Chinese posters who were raised Chinese talking about the flaws of Chinese parenting as "parroting American cultural norms".
if a chinese kid can talk to their parents and generate empathy, they wont be a slave for the rest of your life. you learn these speech/coercion skills by being social and take a speech class wont hurt either.
its pretty easy to change your parents mind, after all, they are simply looking for your best interest.
to the people shocked at the mom and why the kid stuck through it.. if they kid really hated it, she would show signs of resentment. thats not healthy.
ive never been close to my parents (im chinese, born in america btw) and the moment they step over the line i just walk out the door and go to my friends house for the night. they over react and call 911. honestly, what kind of cop would blame the kid for being the douche when the kid tells the story of the parent making him do x pages of homework before he gets a bowl of rice. lol. so really, the kid has all the power in the relationship, you just have to know how to abuse it.
You know what I would like a Citation for? A single Psychological studying promoting the kind of parenting in the OP.
But I guess Psychology isn't a real science and is just a bunch of western garbage amirite (A common belief among Asians)
The reason why Western parenting gets a bad rep is because so many people are so horribly inept at it. As opposed to Chinese parenting, which really requires nothing more then making love a conditional reward for performance.
this and
On January 10 2011 09:23 Cambam wrote: Show nested quote +
99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes, parroting American cultural norms without citing any sources. To be honest, I'm not too familiar with the scientific research on this subject, but I can at least see that China is getting results and America isn't.
You have to drop your assumptions in this thread. You can't just say "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." This is a useless sentence that doesn't add anything to the discussion. This is how you should do it:
"using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." Reputable* Source A: www... Reputable* Source B: www...
*Reputable meaning a peer-reviewed scientific journal or a .gov site, not Oprah.com or AmericanParentingIsTheBest.com
This is much more constructive and stimulating to the discussion. Telling us all about how your friend is Asian and he is not successful is not.
You do realize the very article you're defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims?
I am very amused however that you call Chinese posters who were raised Chinese talking about the flaws of Chinese parenting as "parroting American cultural norms".
are my two favorite posts so far, and I completely agree
What I hate about a lot of Asian parents is that they seem to want to show off their kids to show how awesome their own family is. It is as if their own kid is some sort of car or house that you want to make sure everyone in the world knows about.
But American parents are also at fault. We seem to be very chill and have this idea that you do not need to do a lot to succeed. And those kids that get straight A's, they are natural genius's.
But we need to have better goals for ourselves. In my family, rather than having straight A's, we instead had role models that were rather than football players, famous intellectuals. And my parents, rather than promoting that slavery like parenting, they instead promoted critical thinking, learning about politics, history, and theories.
So as a conclusion, I guess a mix of typical Asian and Western parenting seems to be the best way to raise your kids in the end.
On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote: Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top.
So, did you read even just a little bit of the thread at all with all the Chinese posters (such as myself) who were raised Chinese chiming in about how awful it is and listing specific reasons before hurrying to type another pretentious accusation of cultural bias and join the article's author in claiming educational superiority?
99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes, parroting American cultural norms without citing any sources. To be honest, I'm not too familiar with the scientific research on this subject, but I can at least see that China is getting results and America isn't.
You have to drop your assumptions in this thread. You can't just say "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." This is a useless sentence that doesn't add anything to the discussion. This is how you should do it:
"using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." Reputable* Source A: www... Reputable* Source B: www...
*Reputable meaning a peer-reviewed scientific journal or a .gov site, not Oprah.com or AmericanParentingIsTheBest.com
This is much more constructive and stimulating to the discussion. Telling us all about how your friend is Asian and he is not successful is not.
You do realize the very article you're defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims?
As a matter of fact, I do realize that the very article I'm defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims. I even said so in my first post, oddly enough:
On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote: While this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions.
I am very amused however that you call Chinese posters who were raised Chinese talking about the flaws of Chinese parenting as "parroting American cultural norms".
Even so, anecdotal evidence from Chinese posters who were raised Chinese is still anecdotal evidence.
On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote: Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top.
So, did you read even just a little bit of the thread at all with all the Chinese posters (such as myself) who were raised Chinese chiming in about how awful it is and listing specific reasons before hurrying to type another pretentious accusation of cultural bias and join the article's author in claiming educational superiority?
99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes, parroting American cultural norms without citing any sources. To be honest, I'm not too familiar with the scientific research on this subject, but I can at least see that China is getting results and America isn't.
You have to drop your assumptions in this thread. You can't just say "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." This is a useless sentence that doesn't add anything to the discussion. This is how you should do it:
"using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." Reputable* Source A: www... Reputable* Source B: www...
*Reputable meaning a peer-reviewed scientific journal or a .gov site, not Oprah.com or AmericanParentingIsTheBest.com
This is much more constructive and stimulating to the discussion. Telling us all about how your friend is Asian and he is not successful is not.
You do realize the very article you're defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims?
As a matter of fact, I do realize that the very article I'm defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims. I even said so in my first post, oddly enough:
On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote: While this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions.
I am very amused however that you call Chinese posters who were raised Chinese talking about the flaws of Chinese parenting as "parroting American cultural norms".
Even so, anecdotal evidence from Chinese posters who were raised Chinese is still anecdotal evidence.
I'm calling massive BS on you here. Firstly you say "99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes", as if to undermine every one who disagrees with the parenting style presented in the OP.Then when some one attacks you for defending the article, you say "anecdotal evidence form Chinese posters who were raised Chinese is still anecdotal evidence" as if that now holds some meaning? Hypocritical bias FTW.
edit: My comprehension fails. Or the clarity of your post fails. Or both.
On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote: Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top.
So, did you read even just a little bit of the thread at all with all the Chinese posters (such as myself) who were raised Chinese chiming in about how awful it is and listing specific reasons before hurrying to type another pretentious accusation of cultural bias and join the article's author in claiming educational superiority?
99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes, parroting American cultural norms without citing any sources. To be honest, I'm not too familiar with the scientific research on this subject, but I can at least see that China is getting results and America isn't.
You have to drop your assumptions in this thread. You can't just say "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." This is a useless sentence that doesn't add anything to the discussion. This is how you should do it:
"using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." Reputable* Source A: www... Reputable* Source B: www...
*Reputable meaning a peer-reviewed scientific journal or a .gov site, not Oprah.com or AmericanParentingIsTheBest.com
This is much more constructive and stimulating to the discussion. Telling us all about how your friend is Asian and he is not successful is not.
You do realize the very article you're defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims?
As a matter of fact, I do realize that the very article I'm defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims. I even said so in my first post, oddly enough:
On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote: While this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions.
I am very amused however that you call Chinese posters who were raised Chinese talking about the flaws of Chinese parenting as "parroting American cultural norms".
Even so, anecdotal evidence from Chinese posters who were raised Chinese is still anecdotal evidence.
Since you're the one stating that sources are principal and dismissing criticisms of an article that itself has no sources, let me play your game:
Please go ahead and provide me with sources (and they have to be reputable, not some Chinese website) showing that the methods of parenting outlined have a direct causative effect in creating "successful" children, as the article claims.
Amy Chua is biased because of her background. Anyone reading this article should recognize this.
First, she titles the article "Why chinese mothers are superior." She is a Chinese mother, and thus would tend to view herself and her views in a positive light. Also since it worked for her, she is more likely to believe it to be the superior method. Did you know 90% of people think they're above average?
Second, her article and evidence is based on common stereotype, that "asian mothers are superior", which she proclaims as a truth -- something one should never do in an article -- her own experience, and the experience of her friends and colleagues. Since Mrs. Chua is a Yale professor, her colleagues and friends are also more likely to be smart, well-educated people, and the asians she knows were probably successful themselves, and probably have successful children.
In one study of 50 Western American mothers and 48 Chinese immigrant mothers
The study she cites has less than 100 total participants. Pretty sure you want a larger sample size than that before you start generalizing based on its results. The studies done definitely indicate that Chinese immigrant parents drill their children harder than American parents, but thats about it. This can't be extended to all Chinese parents, and this can't be evidence of their superiority.
By contrast, the Chinese believe that the best way to protect their children is by preparing them for the future, letting them see what they're capable of, and arming them with skills, work habits and inner confidence that no one can ever take away.
Another generalization based on zero evidence.
• attend a sleepover • have a playdate • be in a school play • complain about not being in a school play • watch TV or play computer games • choose their own extracurricular activities • get any grade less than an A • not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama • play any instrument other than the piano or violin • not play the piano or violin.
Mrs. Chua's harsh list of rules tells us all we need to know. Anyone who raised their children like this shouldn't write an essay on why Chinese mothers are superior, the bias simply is going to be there, even if you attempt to be a subjective writer, an endeavor which Mrs. Chua obviously didn't undertake. Also this list doesn't work if any of her children went to a high school attended by the child of another Chinese parent. Mrs. Chua could simply be exaggerating when she says that they must be the "No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama" but the rest of the paper doesn't give me this impression.
As an adult, I once did the same thing to Sophia, calling her garbage in English when she acted extremely disrespectfully toward me. When I mentioned that I had done this at a dinner party, I was immediately ostracized. One guest named Marcy got so upset she broke down in tears and had to leave early. My friend Susan, the host, tried to rehabilitate me with the remaining guests.
Seriously Mrs. Chua? You were so emotional in your denouncing of your child that another parent at the dinner party broke into tears and had to leave? How does this show that Mrs. Chua is a good parent or that Chinese parenting is better? It only seems to show your own failings, not anyone elses.
Western parents might not push their children enough. But Mrs. Chua's parents were professors, and she and her husband are professors. Maybe this has something do with their success in schools? Parenting your children as Mrs. Chua did is probably not the best method, nor would everyones children be clones of Mrs. Chua and her children if their parents followed her methods. She comes across as an elitist, and this entire paper is an elaboration of her elitist views and her excuse/explanation for her failings in any areas she didn't gain experience in while growing up.
On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote: Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top.
So, did you read even just a little bit of the thread at all with all the Chinese posters (such as myself) who were raised Chinese chiming in about how awful it is and listing specific reasons before hurrying to type another pretentious accusation of cultural bias and join the article's author in claiming educational superiority?
99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes, parroting American cultural norms without citing any sources. To be honest, I'm not too familiar with the scientific research on this subject, but I can at least see that China is getting results and America isn't.
You have to drop your assumptions in this thread. You can't just say "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." This is a useless sentence that doesn't add anything to the discussion. This is how you should do it:
"using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." Reputable* Source A: www... Reputable* Source B: www...
*Reputable meaning a peer-reviewed scientific journal or a .gov site, not Oprah.com or AmericanParentingIsTheBest.com
This is much more constructive and stimulating to the discussion. Telling us all about how your friend is Asian and he is not successful is not.
You do realize the very article you're defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims?
As a matter of fact, I do realize that the very article I'm defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims. I even said so in my first post, oddly enough:
On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote: While this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions.
I am very amused however that you call Chinese posters who were raised Chinese talking about the flaws of Chinese parenting as "parroting American cultural norms".
Even so, anecdotal evidence from Chinese posters who were raised Chinese is still anecdotal evidence.
Since you're the one stating that sources are principal and dismissing criticisms of an article that itself has no sources, let me play your game:
Please go ahead and provide me with sources (and they have to be reputable, not some Chinese website) showing that the methods of parenting outlined have a direct causative effect in creating "successful" children, as the article claims.
That entirely depends on how you define "successful." If we take the definition of "successful" from the fact that the author of the article thinks her children to be "successful," then the burden of proof is on those who dismiss the possibility of such parenting to be effective. If we are speaking in more general terms, there is burden of proof on members of both sides of this argument since both sides have made claims without *proof*.
On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote: Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top.
So, did you read even just a little bit of the thread at all with all the Chinese posters (such as myself) who were raised Chinese chiming in about how awful it is and listing specific reasons before hurrying to type another pretentious accusation of cultural bias and join the article's author in claiming educational superiority?
99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes, parroting American cultural norms without citing any sources. To be honest, I'm not too familiar with the scientific research on this subject, but I can at least see that China is getting results and America isn't.
You have to drop your assumptions in this thread. You can't just say "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." This is a useless sentence that doesn't add anything to the discussion. This is how you should do it:
"using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." Reputable* Source A: www... Reputable* Source B: www...
*Reputable meaning a peer-reviewed scientific journal or a .gov site, not Oprah.com or AmericanParentingIsTheBest.com
This is much more constructive and stimulating to the discussion. Telling us all about how your friend is Asian and he is not successful is not.
You do realize the very article you're defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims?
As a matter of fact, I do realize that the very article I'm defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims. I even said so in my first post, oddly enough:
On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote: While this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions.
I am very amused however that you call Chinese posters who were raised Chinese talking about the flaws of Chinese parenting as "parroting American cultural norms".
Even so, anecdotal evidence from Chinese posters who were raised Chinese is still anecdotal evidence.
I'm calling massive BS on you here. Firstly you say "99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes", as if to undermine every one who disagrees with the parenting style presented in the OP.Then when some one attacks you for defending the article, you say "anecdotal evidence form Chinese posters who were raised Chinese is still anecdotal evidence" as if that now holds some meaning? Hypocritical bias FTW.
edit: My comprehension fails. Or the clarity of your post fails. Or both.
Yeah, I'm confused. Sorry if my post was unclear; the main point I was trying to get across is that anecdotal evidence is always worthless, no matter who it's coming from. I'm just trying to move this discussion towards one where people cite sources and don't just make unsubstantiated claims.
On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote: Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top.
So, did you read even just a little bit of the thread at all with all the Chinese posters (such as myself) who were raised Chinese chiming in about how awful it is and listing specific reasons before hurrying to type another pretentious accusation of cultural bias and join the article's author in claiming educational superiority?
99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes, parroting American cultural norms without citing any sources. To be honest, I'm not too familiar with the scientific research on this subject, but I can at least see that China is getting results and America isn't.
You have to drop your assumptions in this thread. You can't just say "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." This is a useless sentence that doesn't add anything to the discussion. This is how you should do it:
"using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." Reputable* Source A: www... Reputable* Source B: www...
*Reputable meaning a peer-reviewed scientific journal or a .gov site, not Oprah.com or AmericanParentingIsTheBest.com
This is much more constructive and stimulating to the discussion. Telling us all about how your friend is Asian and he is not successful is not.
You do realize the very article you're defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims?
As a matter of fact, I do realize that the very article I'm defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims. I even said so in my first post, oddly enough:
On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote: While this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions.
I am very amused however that you call Chinese posters who were raised Chinese talking about the flaws of Chinese parenting as "parroting American cultural norms".
Even so, anecdotal evidence from Chinese posters who were raised Chinese is still anecdotal evidence.
Since you're the one stating that sources are principal and dismissing criticisms of an article that itself has no sources, let me play your game:
Please go ahead and provide me with sources (and they have to be reputable, not some Chinese website) showing that the methods of parenting outlined have a direct causative effect in creating "successful" children, as the article claims.
That entirely depends on how you define "successful." If we take the definition of "successful" from the fact that the author of the article thinks her children to be "successful," then the burden of proof is on those who dismiss the possibility of such parenting to be effective. If we are speaking in more general terms, there is burden of proof on members of both sides of this argument since both sides have made claims without *proof*.
If the definition of "successful" is that the parents think their children are successful, then there's no point in having a discussion.
The whole idea here is that the author of this article makes a pretty substantive claim (that Chinese mothers are "superior) and thus the burden of proof is on the side of Chinese parenting. The article provides only anecdotal evidence, thus anecdotal evidence in response is absolutely appropriate in this case.
On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote: Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top.
So, did you read even just a little bit of the thread at all with all the Chinese posters (such as myself) who were raised Chinese chiming in about how awful it is and listing specific reasons before hurrying to type another pretentious accusation of cultural bias and join the article's author in claiming educational superiority?
99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes, parroting American cultural norms without citing any sources. To be honest, I'm not too familiar with the scientific research on this subject, but I can at least see that China is getting results and America isn't.
You have to drop your assumptions in this thread. You can't just say "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." This is a useless sentence that doesn't add anything to the discussion. This is how you should do it:
"using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." Reputable* Source A: www... Reputable* Source B: www...
*Reputable meaning a peer-reviewed scientific journal or a .gov site, not Oprah.com or AmericanParentingIsTheBest.com
This is much more constructive and stimulating to the discussion. Telling us all about how your friend is Asian and he is not successful is not.
You do realize the very article you're defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims?
As a matter of fact, I do realize that the very article I'm defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims. I even said so in my first post, oddly enough:
On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote: While this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions.
I am very amused however that you call Chinese posters who were raised Chinese talking about the flaws of Chinese parenting as "parroting American cultural norms".
Even so, anecdotal evidence from Chinese posters who were raised Chinese is still anecdotal evidence.
Since you're the one stating that sources are principal and dismissing criticisms of an article that itself has no sources, let me play your game:
Please go ahead and provide me with sources (and they have to be reputable, not some Chinese website) showing that the methods of parenting outlined have a direct causative effect in creating "successful" children, as the article claims.
Well, to be fair, the burden of proof lies on both sides of the argument. People claiming that Western Parenting Style is better, people claiming that Chinese style is better, and people claiming that Chinese style is wrong are all making claims and thus all have the burden of proof.
But sure, I'll post some evidence. It's obviously not definitive proof that Chinese-style is better than Western, but it's a start. And it's published in Science. It is an article examining reasons for the gap in math achievements between American students and Chinese and Japanese students. Here's a quote from the "Parental Beliefs" section:
"Experiences that parents provide their children may be strongly influenced by their general beliefs about the components of success. For example, parents who emphasize ability as the most important requisite for success may be less disposed to stress the need to work hard than would parents who believe sucess is largely dependent on effort.
In exploring cultural differences in beliefs about the relative importance of factors leading to success in school, we asked the mothers to rank effort, natural ability, difficulty of the schoolwork, and luck or chance by importance in determining the child's performance in school. They were then asked to assign a total of ten points to the four factors. Japanese mothers assigned the most points to effort, and American mothers gave the largest number of points to ability (Fig. 6). The willingness of Japanese and Chineses children to work so hard in school may be due, in part, to the stronger belief on the part of their mothers in the value of hard work."
Cambam: while I agree that scientific journals and .gov sites are "ideally" the only research that should be used as evidence, I doubt you'll be able to find any direct comparisons in the results of each parenting style, especially because some of the outcomes are intangible/hard to put on a scale (i.e. creativity). You can praise good sourcing all you want, but this is a controversial topic where you probably won't find more than what you just did, "what does each parent group believe in the first place?"
Not every discussion can be rigorously academic; nor does every discussion need to be rigorously academic to be valid. In cases such like this, anecdotal vs anecdotal will probably reveal more than purely sourced arguments.
(plus in some fields coughmedicalcough journal evidence can be just as worthless due to stat-manipulation)
I mean after all, if the world adhered to your standards of rigor, no popular publications would exist. WSJ would be totally gone, especially it's op-ed section.
Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top.
While this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, [1]it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions.[2] I think one of the biggest take home messages is the different ways China and America view hard work:
For many things, Americans think "you either have it or you don't", while Chinese people think "anyone can have it if they work hard". A good example is math. You hear Americans use phrases like "He's a mathwhiz" or "She's a natural". This is bad for motivation because people who aren't "mathwhizzes" are discouraged and don't want to practice math because they weren't born with math skill. It even ends up being bad for the "mathwhizzes", because when they reach a point where math is difficult, they get frustrated and discouraged, because they aren't used to having to practice to do well in math.[4] The Chinese attitude is much better for everyone's motivation. Even the worst kid in the class is motivated to practice because he believes that if practices enough, he can be the best. And this is basically true, and is probably a big contributor to the fact that by 5th grade, the top performing American classroom is being outperformed by the bottom performing Chinese classroom in math.
[1]The article in question, and the mother writing it deserves some criticism. The lulu story was disgusting, starving one's own child and not letting them go to the bathroom.
[3]Your articles are horrible... but they prove a point that Chinese students (raised in China) perform significantly better on international education rankings than US students.
Seriously... what blogger writes with this many grammatical errors?: "Decrease in the level of education to Americans worried." "However, for China's global ranking in education, U.S. education experts have pointed out, this result shows that the Chinese cultural emphasis on education has a tradition of attention to teacher training and other characteristics, but also show that Chinese students than U.S. students more study time , and spent on sports, music and so less time accordingly."
And I found this rather funny: "The three-yearly OECD Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) report, which compares the knowledge and skills of 15-year-olds in 70 countries around the world, ranked the United States 14th out of 34 OECD countries for reading skills, 17th for science and a below-average 25th for mathematics.
One thing I will note: [2] You are right, I find that my relatives raised in China, and my friends in University from mainland China are heavily critical of western ideals. My Chinese friends, and I myself, having been raised in the States, believe more in western education.
[4]I don't believe this is true, I personally subconsciously believe that I can be smart even though I'm in the bottom half of my class now. I do work hard to my degree, but often slack off. My friends studying engineering, raised in the western world also believe more in hard work than in talent. I find everyone believes in hard work among the engineers. If they didn't, they wouldn't be here. (Well ok, we have a handful that don't work too hard... but just a handful.)
The point I'm trying to make anyways is : Somewhere along the way, as we got better in school, and were praised for it, we developed a desire to learn more, and this caused us to develop an intrinsic motivation to learn. This intrinsic motivation then became a positive feedback loop. When we hit a wall facing other smart students in University, we remember how we'd succeeded in the past through hard work and not through being called math whizzes. We may not believe that we can be the best in the class (some students simply are more talented), but we all believe that with more work, we could be close.
Education rankings are being given too much weight in general IMO. Since, by nature, they are unable to account for intangibles like creativity/leadership, adhering to what strict math/science standardized testing reveals can undermine invisible advantages of "failing" education systems. Sure, China may be best at producing students competent at standardized testing, but what does that really mean? This is the problem of rigor: it can only be applied to certain types of measurements.
And anecdotally, this is coming from a physics student, and I'm sure you know that physics is a field where academic rigor is important. (though it shouldn't be! one of my favorite physics professors showed us an early 1900s physics journal that was pretty much anecdotally written, and arguably it was much more useful than the sanitized, lackoffirstperson journals of today). Blind praise of journals and rigor is leading us in a bad direction.
On January 10 2011 10:52 Cambam wrote: Well, to be fair, the burden of proof lies on both sides of the argument. People claiming that Western Parenting Style is better, people claiming that Chinese style is better, and people claiming that Chinese style is wrong are all making claims and thus all have the burden of proof.
No, I don't think so. The article starts out right with the title making a claim. There is no burden of proof on anyone contesting this claim. That's not how it works. There's a difference between "I don't think Chinese parenting is as good as you say it is" and "I think Chinese parenting sucks".
The whole point is that the claim itself is bogus (and not just because the author provides no evidence). It's bogus because, how are you defining "success"? If you define success as high marks in a very rigid grading system in subjects that reward repetition and mechanical skills, then yes, training your child to develop these skills through monotony and an infusion of work ethic that borders on slave driving can indeed be defined as a "superior" method.
Western parents however, who may define "success" by such silly criteria as being happy, mentally healthy, and having a solid social net, may actually be superior to Chinese parents in this regard. And apparently, and this sounds a little crazy I know, but these factors seem to also actually make a person more successful in life, financially that is.
Without making a definitive classification of "success", which in itself will render the discussion with bias, there is no point to any discussion, much less an academic one. What we can talk about instead is the flaws of the Chinese version of parenting, which I must contend as not worth the benefits. I must protest the Chinese form of parenting, which reduces children to abject slaves, in a cruel pursuit of vicarious success, that which transforms people into human trophies, mutes that which makes us human: our emotions and connections to other human beings, and ultimately stunts the development of a child in favor of the harsh qualities of an adult.
I question how "Chinese" the author is. Ironically, she was born and/or spent all her childhood in the US, married a white guy, and almost certainly doesn't even speak Chinese to her children at home. Perhaps she's just a big troll.
Some people seem to be defending the article by saying.. well you aren't providing sources that say a western upbringing is better. Look at all these fancy stats at how much better China is in math etc etc. Well.. I don't care, your basing success on "results", the fact is, it's borderline, if not is, child abuse. Also, I consider life to be pretty much a 1 time deal(I don't believe in reincarnation), who wants to spend 98% of their time from birth to death working , first in school, then at work..... sure, if someone told me I could work 80 hours a week, for 5 years, I am guaranteed to live to 85, have as much money as I want, and never have to work again, I would do it. But sadly, this is not the case.. and therefore, people need to relax and live a little. If you truly think this is a successful method of parenting, and living, then why are you on a starcraft forum. I don't see how this is advancing your goal of becoming 100% robot whatsoever, it's a completely irrelevant activity in the big picture of 100% work, 0% play.
Imagine for a moment you growing up, your not allowed to have friends, and you work 150% constantly. All you have is your parents, you have to succeed or you are called a piece of shit, a failure, etc. What the fuck do you do when they expect more than what you can give them?
Life is really god damn short, you'll realize this when you have people really close to you pass away... at any age. The sooner you figure it out the better. Take some time, play some games, hang out with those that you love and like. Go on vacation with your family, see the world.
Success is not 100% based on money... and school grades, and how you did in piano class. Success imo is based mostly on happiness. Sure... money helps, but being able to do what you want as a career, being what you dreamed of being when you were young..... having a family ( or just getting laid.. whatever you personally want that makes you happy)... anything, that will make you happy.. is success.
Success to me is much different then being brain washed, told to work 100%, make lots of money, don't play cause I was told it was wrong.
If you spend 100% of your time here working and making yourself a success, and then you die before you can retire or have children, or whatever.... what will you have accomplished?
All work and no play, makes for a dull day... Like i've said before, maybe Im a little idealistic, but I am really sad for this ladies kids, and it saddens me more to see people defending these parents actions and justifying it simply by saying, well... they make more money and have better grades.
The Chinese people, while they may be hard workers and with similar backgrounds/finance, are unable to get into the uttermost top positions in the Federal Reserve if they did not have good connections
board of governors:
Benjamin S. Bernanke ( Former Harvard instructor and now chairman of the fed ) Donald L. Kohn Kevin M. Warsh Randall S. Kroszner Frederic S. Mishkin
12 fed bank presidents: most of these guys have PhDs
Boston: Eric S. Rosengren New York: Timothy F. Geithner Philadelphia: Charles I. Plosser Richmond: Jeffrey M. Lacker St. Louis: James B. Bullard Minneapolis: Gary H. Stern Kansas City: Thomas M. Hoenig Dallas: Richard W. Fisher San Francisco: Janet L. Yellen Cleveland: Sandra Pianalto / gentile Atlanta: Dennis P. Lockhart / gentile Chicago: Charles L. Evans / gentile
This article should be made into "some Asian mother in America".
I really do not see a lot of mothers like that in China. May be a minority out of all the mothers do... (which exist in all cultures I guess?)
If all mothers are like that those gangs in our city must not be able to find any "new recruits" for their "business".
Anyways, I just feel that American culture is getting more and more conservative.... Chinese mothers in USA and Chinese mothers in China is completely two different species.
Think about it: Why would you study hard when all you need to succeed in China is to "know the right people"? Guanxi is much more important than knowledge; college graduates are fighting for jobs like security guard in mainland China. (It only support the proofs that mother DO encourage children to go to college, but it is starting to change now....)
On January 10 2011 12:15 BraveGhost wrote: All work and no play, makes for a dull day... Like i've said before, maybe Im a little idealistic, but I am really sad for this ladies kids, and it saddens me more to see people defending these parents actions and justifying it simply by saying, well... they make more money and have better grades.
Yeah, this lady's definitely taking it to the extreme. Still, I think it's important to strike a balance between work and play that, while not all work, is still more work than play. The problem is, I know some family friends in our circle of Chinese-American families that were raised like this (still, not as extreme), and as soon as they got to college, their parents had significantly less control over their actions, so they did everything they couldn't do growing up.
My parents definitely worked me hard. My mom did the whole "sit there while I'm playing piano" thing to make sure I practiced, It was never more than an hour a day, though, partly because the people who practice three hours a day will end up getting a degree in piano performance (or at least play at that level), and neither of us saw that as a future for me. I had to get straight A's in school, and my parents definitely got pissed when I got my first B+ in high school.
I was still allowed to play video games, though (as evidenced by the fact that I'm on a Starcraft forum). I was allowed to attend sleepovers and friend's parties, but ONLY if I had already finished all of my homework. They're of the belief that a high salary is a good measure of success (as am I), but we also appreciate the value of leading a happy life. It's just that they think a high salary will help facilitate a happy life, which may or may not be due to financial situations we've been in.
So now I'm in college, and I'm not going crazy. I had to motivate myself for some things through high school, so I can do the same in college. I only play BW on breaks when I have no homework (which really damages my BW skill. Like fuck. I can't break the D+/C- barrier, and I've been playing this game for three years now?)
These kids who only work hard because of their parents might find themselves lacking all reason to work once their parents are no longer breathing down their necks.
And for all of those people talking about anecdotal evidence or whatnot, of course we're going to have anecdotes. My post is an anecdote. I don't get how we can discuss this topic without anecdotes. And just because something is an anecdote doesn't mean it's completely worthless.
Also, I thought of this just now, but I don't think all Asian parenting is about all work and no play. It's about being the best. Yes, I play video games, but for as long as I can remember, I've had a play to win attitude. I remember being at Chuck E. Cheese's when I was like six years old at a birthday party, and instead of playing the games that I thought were the most fun, I played the ones that had the highest ticket-to-coin ratio, because I knew that I fucking wanted those tickets, and they were an objective measure of success at Chuck E. Cheese. Then, I realized that the coins were equivalent to quarters, and you were allowed to purchase the prizes with money, with each ticket being worth one cent. From that point on, I refused to play any game that would, on average, pay out less than twenty five tickets for one coin. And all a lot of my friends now won't play me in Starcraft or SSBM, because while they were dicking around and playing 4v4 fastest or FFA games, I was trying to make myself better. ... I lead a joyless existence T.T I kid. I'm actually fine with my mentality. Winning for me is fun, so I play to win, and I'm pretty sure this is the result of Asian parenting.
EDIT: @ GWBushJr, the lack of Asians there could very well be because of a racial bias in the general public. Go look up how many Asian Congressmen there are. There's a reason a significant majority of Congress is white and male. While the Board Governors of the Federal Reserve aren't voted on by the public, they're appointed positions, and general opinion definitely plays a role. If the USA was a perfect meritocracy, I highly doubt the ratio between races in such positions would be the same.
EDIT2: Yeah, everyone on that list is white, and all are male with the exception of Yellen and Pianalto.
Being Asian and somewhat a product of this kind of parenting, I do appreciate what my parents have done for me. Yet I think one needs to be careful when applying this method... it doesn't work on every child. There has to be a balance between fun and work, and you really should let a child find his/her own way eventually.
I mean, by this logic asian kids should be the best at everything when they grow up. This is clearly not the case. There are plenty of geniuses around of all nationalities.
On January 09 2011 09:07 sikyon wrote: Chinese people looooooove anecdotal evidence. They LOVE to tell stories. The trick is to basically ask for citations. I ask for citations to anecdotes all the time, statistical evidence.
It's well documented that Asian students perform better in American schools and have higher scores on standarized tests, fyi. The statistical evidence of this has been published to death, the author only tries to explain why...
I'm kind of surprised how hostile tl is to this article. I grew up in a sort of free-form parenting environment with lots of babysitters and busy, divorced parents. I feel like the quality of my life went up dramatically when I added some discipline and structure to the way I lived. If it had been there earlier I imagine I would have been better off. I feel like children should be able to choose their interests to a greater degree than the author suggests, but that the pressure to perform should still be present.
So basically her children are suffering, living a depressing life and basically trapped by her mothers cage. Her ego is pretty pathetic.
Now I havent read the whole article just because I felt incredibly sorry for them because of their parents.
I would just like to say in my opinon that they would barely have any experience with the outside world with those rules she enforces on her kids. Which is a huge deal to be successful with your older. You should be able to socialize with other people outside other than parents, other adults and family members. I remember a friend of mine who always told me, "Having social skills is sometimes better than having a better qualification" Which is true for me because that has actually happened to me before.
To wrap it all up, I had a few friends who had parents like that, and I could only talk to them at school and when they got out of high school. They were a total wreck.
On January 09 2011 09:07 sikyon wrote: Chinese people looooooove anecdotal evidence. They LOVE to tell stories. The trick is to basically ask for citations. I ask for citations to anecdotes all the time, statistical evidence.
It's well documented that Asian students perform better in American schools and have higher scores on standarized tests, fyi. The statistical evidence of this has been published to death, the author only tries to explain why...
I'm kind of surprised how hostile tl is to this article. I grew up in a sort of free-form parenting environment with lots of babysitters and busy, divorced parents. I feel like the quality of my life went up dramatically when I added some discipline and structure to the way I lived. If it had been there earlier I imagine I would have been better off. I feel like children should be able to choose their interests to a greater degree than the author suggests, but that the pressure to perform should still be present.
Adding some structure and discipline to your own life is different than being forced to sit at the piano for hours, not allowed to get up for anything for hours until you get it perfect, no? And also, if your parents were psychotic idiots who forced you to study 25 hours a day against your will and have a miserable childhood, your "discipline" will completely dissolve once there's no one forcing you to do everything. There's a difference between instilling some discipline and values, while allowing the child to develop his own interests and have a life than forcing a child to work at whatever you tell him to in order to make him a trophy robot who will probably be worse off than the white kid who both studies and has time for play.
wow this is serously child abuse. This is a such a close minded and outdated way of rasing a child, i would not be surprised if all these kids grow up to have serious self esteem issues. No wonder my dad is worried china will take over the world
On January 09 2011 09:07 sikyon wrote: Chinese people looooooove anecdotal evidence. They LOVE to tell stories. The trick is to basically ask for citations. I ask for citations to anecdotes all the time, statistical evidence.
It's well documented that Asian students perform better in American schools and have higher scores on standarized tests, fyi. The statistical evidence of this has been published to death, the author only tries to explain why...
I'm kind of surprised how hostile tl is to this article. I grew up in a sort of free-form parenting environment with lots of babysitters and busy, divorced parents. I feel like the quality of my life went up dramatically when I added some discipline and structure to the way I lived. If it had been there earlier I imagine I would have been better off. I feel like children should be able to choose their interests to a greater degree than the author suggests, but that the pressure to perform should still be present.
There's a difference between the "pressure to perform" (or just discipline in general) and the moron that wrote this article. This woman has no clue what she's doing and many posters in this thread have said it really well - that style of parenting raises someone who will do great throughout school, but will probably end up not only extremely depressed but in a very mediocre job as well - paying well but not really actually doing anything.
Can someone in Asian confirm if parents there are similar to those mentioned in the article? Like other people have mentioned, I feel like American-Asian parents are surprisingly much more conservative than strictly Asian parents.
While this article certainly takes things into the extremes, there's always the push by Asian parents for their children to succeed. I've seen cases where the method has succeeded and cases where it doesn't; either way, the lifestyle is not as horrible as it sounds in this article. Sure, it may seem harsh but ultimately the child benefits the most and grows up to be a healthy, happy, and generally successful adult.
Like I've been saying, it's all about balance balance balance.
Due to the absolutely crappy performance of American schools, how is it even debatable that American kids shouldn't be subjected to more discipline (in the form of stricter parents who force more studying/practice/work out of their kids)?
On January 10 2011 13:38 Animostas wrote: Can someone in Asian confirm if parents there are similar to those mentioned in the article? Like other people have mentioned, I feel like American-Asian parents are surprisingly much more conservative than strictly Asian parents.
I immigrated to the US when I was 6. I am 20 now. My mother raised me the 'chinese' way but it was largely a failure because she was a working mom who couldnt monitor us 24/7. But my mom has grown to understand that the 'chinese' way is wrong now because she believes that America is the better place to live.
Asian-American parents are much more conservative probably because their childhood were not as fruitful. They expect that with such a fruitful and privileged childhood that their kids have, they should have the potential to be successful above and beyond what their (the parents) potential was.
I hope some of you realize she's right about the "bluntness" that some Asian parents exhibit. My parents have Chinese expressions basically saying "don't be stupid" or "if you do that, I'd beat you to death" but they don't really MEAN they'd murder their child or they think i'm completely incompetent. I know that because it's in the culture. I lol'd when the western had to leave the dinner table because of that - it really isn't that "bad" as it sounds.
The United States has pretty awful education up until university-level(arguably high school is somewhat decent at its higher level with AP and such), but I don't think you could argue that any country has better universities than the US(maybe UK has some good ones, but not as many). Oddly enough, the university level is where the shortcomings of this system stats to show. Although it is in part from unrelated reasons. It starts to be the level at which children gain independence and a need for more than just studying. That's really when those who don't share their parents' enthusiasm really begin to drop off.
On January 10 2011 13:38 Animostas wrote: Can someone in Asian confirm if parents there are similar to those mentioned in the article? Like other people have mentioned, I feel like American-Asian parents are surprisingly much more conservative than strictly Asian parents.
Yes you are absolutely right, this lady is completely "American".
While I agree that we Chinese emphasize more on the academics, it does not mean we love to abuse our children.
This type of mother exists in all cultures, but you may find more of them in America (Asian communities?)
In general, I found USA more conservative than a lot of East Asian countries (Japan, Korea, China)
On January 10 2011 07:21 LilClinkin wrote: Another study analysed a group of preschool children (I believe these were children living in America) at the age of 4 who were asked to come up with as many uses for a paper clip as possible. On average, the children were able to come up with over 100 uses each. They would also make 'strange' leaps of logic and ask if the paper clip could be the size of a planet or if it was made of cheese. These same children were re-tested IIRC 2 years later, and then 2 years later again. The average amount of uses for a paper clip decreased incrementally at each stage of testing until at the age of 9 the average result was 20. The hypothesis explaining this decline was the education system these children were placed taught them a very strict 'there is one answer to each problem' type of logic. Those children who conformed to this logic are rewarded with the highest grades, creating a positive feed-back loop to stifle creativity and only strive to find the answer the teacher wants.
But what is the average quality of the uses given by the 4 year olds and the 9 year olds?
If someone gives me an answer like "WELL IF THE STAPLER IS THE SIZE OF MY FRIDGE AND MADE OF CHEESE I CAN EAT IT," they're not getting hired by me.
On January 10 2011 04:54 MforWW wrote: Oh, and a last thing.
The whole argument "if you oppress your kid when they're little, they go CRAZY when they go to college!" is totallllll bullshit.
I've known a ton of kids that were "oppressed" by their parents, and while they loosened up a lot, they still NEVER became fuckups, or even close to it.
This whole argument is based on some sort of urban legend. It's just not true.
I personally know two people who actually become complete an utter fuckups after getting into good schools (MIT and Princeton).
The one who went to MIT was practically verbatim raised the way the author of this article says. The only socializing she got to do was at math team meetings (which she did dominate), and in senior year somehow managed to sneak away and hang out with a mutual friend, but was otherwise not allowed out of the house ever. She dropped out sophomore year after becoming a huge club drug user (acid, e, some research chemicals, the usual) and is living with her 29 year old boyfriend.
The thing is, you don't understand the difference between normal strict parenting and the kind of bullshit the writer of this article wants to give. My GF senior year of high school had a 4.67 weighted GPA and will be graduating from Yale in the spring, and I definitely contribute her success throughout highschool at least partially to her parents being pretty strict about her study habits, though honestly I think it's more about expectations than strictness. My parents always expected me to get As and do well in school, and I always have, despite the fact that my only strict guidelines were "don't get written about in the paper" (i.e. in a commit a terrible crime sort of way).
being mechanically proficient is not enough. the highest paying jobs in any field is management. management requires social skills and critical / abstract thinking. you can't grind your way into upper management by reading books or practicing drills. asian parents don't realize it but they are setting their children up for a life of mediocrity because they are not arming them with the skills it takes to go beyond mid-level employee. sure, you can live comfortably, but i'd like to think people live with more drive and purpose in mind other than grind school, grind work, and die. at the end of the day the highest you can go is only as high as a worker is allowed to unless you develop a different, more diverse, skill set.
Yes, this statistic completely refers to what I was talking about when I said that Chinese parenting/educational philosophy may produce the best workers, but it doesn't produce enough good leaders.
Another poster asked if all Chinese parents actually living in China really are like this. No, of course not, there are degrees. But it would be accurate to say that the basic philosophical/cultural differences she emphasizes are pretty much completely accurate, though different parents obviously will go to different lengths.
However, that said, I would say that families that actually function like hers are not a very large majority. Barely even a plurality I should say. Because China's massive growth and productivity have to have come from somewhere, and it has come from the current parent-age generation's hard work. Both parents work a 50-70 hour work week in basically every family. And in a surprisingly and depressingly large amount of families (anecdotal evidence but in my experience I'd say around 5-10% of relatively mid to high income families) the parents work in different cities. What this means is that kids are basically raised by their retired grandparents, only see their parents a few hours a week, and oftentimes see one of their parents only once a year or so during Chinese New Year. I have a kid in one class who is being 'taken care of' by his sickly grandmother while his parents work in 2 other cities. Needless to say he's not doing that well.
In short, Chinese parents DO think like the author does, but in practical application not all parents have enough time or energy left over from their jobs to put in the kind of effort she talks about.
On January 10 2011 15:13 DarkwindHK wrote: Yes you are absolutely right, this lady is completely "American".
While I agree that we Chinese emphasize more on the academics, it does not mean we love to abuse our children.
This type of mother exists in all cultures, but you may find more of them in America (Asian communities?)
In general, I found USA more conservative than a lot of East Asian countries (Japan, Korea, China)
Nowhere in the article does she describe abuse. At worst, she didn't let her child drink water and go to the bathroom for a small amount of time until she was willing to play the song. She's yelling and making threats, which I'm pretty sure every Asian kid can relate to. In fact, in the face of such obstinacy as described in the article, it's hard to imagine an Asian parent not engaging in similar fashion.
For what it's worth, my experience (which is only with Asian-American and Taiwanese parenting) is that Taiwanese parents are stricter than Asian-American parents. In Taiwan, every single kid is forced to attend after-school studies. The pressure to do well in middle school and high school, especially national tests, is immense, far more than what I and my Asian-American peers experienced.
I'm nearing 30, and when I was a teenager, I used to think my parents were stubborn jackasses (I remember my mom yelling at my brother and I during a road trip, simply because we were laughing at something). But, honestly, I don't anticipate raising my own children that differently.
By the way:
That is, I believe, the primary effect of strict Asian parenting. And it's hard to argue with the results, both in the U.S. and in Asia.
Well, that education pattern, as mentionned before, makes people into perfect tools to use. As far as i know, asian culture has always been modeled with one top, leader, layer and the rest of the people to work without asking questions.
This way of education just amputates one's independency of mind and creativity, and what tool needs any of those caracteristics anyways?
The vast majority of people I know who have been raised that way are usually able to display some quality work and proficiency but none of them is a leader or an innovative person, they always need someone to use their skill or direct them.
Childrens do need boundaries and education, but u gotta find the subtle balance between not giving a sh!t and stealing the soul of ur own children to shape it like it was yours to use.
On January 10 2011 15:13 DarkwindHK wrote: Yes you are absolutely right, this lady is completely "American".
While I agree that we Chinese emphasize more on the academics, it does not mean we love to abuse our children.
This type of mother exists in all cultures, but you may find more of them in America (Asian communities?)
In general, I found USA more conservative than a lot of East Asian countries (Japan, Korea, China)
Nowhere in the article does she describe abuse. At worst, she didn't let her child drink water and go to the bathroom for a small amount of time until she was willing to play the song. She's yelling and making threats, which I'm pretty sure every Asian kid can relate to. In fact, in the face of such obstinacy as described in the article, it's hard to imagine an Asian parent not engaging in similar fashion.
For what it's worth, my experience (which is only with Asian-American and Taiwanese parenting) is that Taiwanese parents are stricter than Asian-American parents. In Taiwan, every single kid is forced to attend after-school studies. The pressure to do well in middle school and high school, especially national tests, is immense, far more than what I and my Asian-American peers experienced.
I'm nearing 30, and when I was a teenager, I used to think my parents were stubborn jackasses (I remember my mom yelling at my brother and I during a road trip, simply because we were laughing at something). But, honestly, I don't anticipate raising my own children that differently.
By the way:
That is, I believe, the primary effect of strict Asian parenting. And it's hard to argue with the results, both in the U.S. and in Asia.
There is a fundamental problem with your argumentation - academic success and behaviorisms create the bureaucratic mind: excellent at complying to regulations and strict procedures as determined by their superiors. After all, that is all that kids have to do during school and college/university. This sort of mind works well in the government areas: government/academic industry, government institutions.
In the market sphere however, where regulations by superiors dont other than a single one: to maximize the difference between money costs of labour and sales revenue, those virtues are nearly useless. Completely different mindset, that of innovation, emotional intelligence of consumer enjoyment preferences, is necessary.
The fact of the matter is, for the productive part of society, the growth of the strict academic mentality and the means used for it is virtually useless in fulfilling the goals of their employment.
Rubbish article, rubbish parenting. A traitor to the asian race too (by marrying a white man and raising halfies, so much for "chinese" parenting).
edit: to elaborate, I can sense that she is quite pretentious. She thinks she "gets" the Asian parenting, while also being "American" enough to see the other side. In truth, she has only caught on the superficial side (strict regime, punishment etc) of Asian parenting because she is too americanized. I know these types. Extremely opportunistic above-average intelligence Asian females who marry white guys and think they have the best of two worlds. Often, they end up losing both, but they don't know about it (or won't recognize it because of their arrogance).
On January 10 2011 17:36 phosphorylation wrote: Rubbish article, rubbish parenting. A traitor to the asian race too (by marrying a white man and raising halfies, so much for "chinese" parenting).
edit: to elaborate, I can sense that she is quite pretentious. She thinks she "gets" the Asian parenting, while also being "American" enough to see the other side. In truth, she has only caught on the superficial side (strict regime, punishment etc) of Asian parenting because she is too americanized. I know these types. Extremely opportunistic above-average intelligence Asian females who marry white guys and think they have the best of two worlds. Often, they end up losing both, but they don't know about it (or won't recognize it because of their arrogance).
Oh my this lady, LOL. Her teaching methods sounds like something a uneducated village women would do. Some parts are correct while others are wrong. What village women like her doesn't understand is that rich asian families often excel because they can get the school teachers to come to their home and teach their child as well as being around other talented children. The teachers doesn't have to torture the child, they explain it better. While the contrast between asian and western child education are extremely different. This Chinese lady's method of teaching compared with more successful asians are crude and inefficient.
On January 10 2011 14:57 Lightwip wrote: The United States has pretty awful education up until university-level(arguably high school is somewhat decent at its higher level with AP and such), but I don't think you could argue that any country has better universities than the US(maybe UK has some good ones, but not as many).
I don't get why so many people say such extreme things like this. I can't speak for Lightwip but most don't actually have a decent justification for it.
Also among people who are in the know I usually hear that our schools become worse as kids get older (relative to the international norm), not the other way around...
Why are AP classes 'better'? Do you measure how good school is by how difficult the classes are? I don't get it.
On January 10 2011 14:57 Lightwip wrote: The United States has pretty awful education up until university-level(arguably high school is somewhat decent at its higher level with AP and such), but I don't think you could argue that any country has better universities than the US(maybe UK has some good ones, but not as many).
I don't get why so many people say such extreme things like this. I can't speak for Lightwip but most don't actually have a decent justification for it.
Also among people who are in the know I usually hear that our schools become worse as kids get older (relative to the international norm), not the other way around...
Why are AP classes 'better'? Do you measure how good school is by how difficult the classes are? I don't get it.
Basing education off the 10% that may excel at school? Becuase the median would be alone to what you were describing micronesia. He must be counting middle eastern as white kids too :D
I graduated out of a class of 900 ish we started with like 1300 for my class and roughly 200ish dropped out 200ish failed to grad on time. such a long time ago hard to remember.
an opposite article could be written focusing on how much freedom a child is granted and how their creativity is nurtured and then strict parenting being blindly criticized.
On January 10 2011 17:29 xarthaz wrote: There is a fundamental problem with your argumentation - academic success and behaviorisms create the bureaucratic mind: excellent at complying to regulations and strict procedures as determined by their superiors. After all, that is all that kids have to do during school and college/university. This sort of mind works well in the government areas: government/academic industry, government institutions.
In the market sphere however, where regulations by superiors dont other than a single one: to maximize the difference between money costs of labour and sales revenue, those virtues are nearly useless. Completely different mindset, that of innovation, emotional intelligence of consumer enjoyment preferences, is necessary.
The fact of the matter is, for the productive part of society, the growth of the strict academic mentality and the means used for it is virtually useless in fulfilling the goals of their employment.
Academic success has a very strong correlation with career success. Please stop spreading the borderline racist lie that Asian parenting is only good at creating mindless automotons. The smartest Asians succeed at engineering, medicine, and other "hard science" careers. Those are exactly the kind of careers that require innovation and creativity.
On January 10 2011 15:57 domovoi wrote: Nowhere in the article does she describe abuse. At worst, she didn't let her child drink water and go to the bathroom for a small amount of time until she was willing to play the song.
How is not letting your child go to the bathroom not abuse? I really wonder where you draw the line.
Telling them to stop being pathetic is also pretty bad, especially if it goes on regularly and isn't just a one time incident.
On January 10 2011 17:29 xarthaz wrote: There is a fundamental problem with your argumentation - academic success and behaviorisms create the bureaucratic mind: excellent at complying to regulations and strict procedures as determined by their superiors. After all, that is all that kids have to do during school and college/university. This sort of mind works well in the government areas: government/academic industry, government institutions.
In the market sphere however, where regulations by superiors dont other than a single one: to maximize the difference between money costs of labour and sales revenue, those virtues are nearly useless. Completely different mindset, that of innovation, emotional intelligence of consumer enjoyment preferences, is necessary.
The fact of the matter is, for the productive part of society, the growth of the strict academic mentality and the means used for it is virtually useless in fulfilling the goals of their employment.
Academic success has a very strong correlation with career success. Please stop spreading the borderline racist lie that Asian parenting is only good at creating mindless automotons. The smartest Asians succeed at engineering, medicine, and other "hard science" careers. Those are exactly the kind of careers that require innovation and creativity.
Yes, because academic success and career success both correlate with IQ.
This article, while it contains some inaccuracies I think deserves way more credit than most people are giving it.
As an adult now I only wished my parents were this stereotypically strict. Children don't want to work and will for the most part take the easy route. Many of these children grow up into lazy entitled adults that are like cancer to the world. I wished I would have been forced to play piano for hours on end instead of playing video games. If they forced me to do this as a child I would be completely pissed and probably hate them. As my maturity grew however I'd love them for it and be eternally grateful.
I think the ideal parenting technique is somewhere in the middle. American parents are generally not strict enough and there are a lot of terrible results because of it. Except for specific genetic conditions, children should not be overweight. Any fat kid is the result of an abusive parent that should not be allowed to have any more kids. I think this physical conditioning should be part of the well-rounded curriculum every parent should teach their child.
This would include:
- Formal Education (Math, Science, English) - Foreign Language (Every child should be taught 1 foreign language while growing up) - Music (Any respectable instrument will do, but start early) - Interpersonal skills (Teach them leadership and communication skills) - Health (Eating a healthy diet and exercising regularly) - Finance (Most parents don't teach their children ANYTHING about money because they don't know how to manage it themselves)
A child that has all of the above skills will become a well-rounded, successful adult. I think the "you're fine just the way you are" mentality breeds mediocrity and stifles innovation.
Anything is more fun if you're really good at it. I'm sure most kids wouldn't find chess "fun" but take a look at Judit Polgár. She was raised by parents with the number 1 priority to make her a chess prodigy. She is now unarguably the best female chess player in the world. Sacrificing a bit of "childhood" to ensure you enjoy the rest of your life seems desirable.
As a child raised VERY strictly, I can definitely relate. And while my childhood was, tbh, not that amazing, and while in some ways i suffered/still suffer socially, looking back on it now at age 25....i don't know how much of it i would change if I had the chance.
The sad thing is, my parents were quite poor, and so although I learned a lot, they never could afford things like music lessons and such, and definitely couldn't afford college, so as of now it hasn't "paid" off as much as it could have for me financially, although i do make quite a bit more than what the average person my age makes. And yes, looking back i could have gone through/paid for college myself, but for some reason....that was just never "me", and my parents never really pushed it hard for some reason. Maybe they felt bad because they couldn't provide it.
In any case, the most important thing they pushed was work ethic, and in that respect they really succeeded. I have a good job that I worked hard for. I play several musical instruments with a reasonable degree of proficiency. I went through a trade school, and pretty much dominated the top of the class all 4 years I was there. I do what I want to do for the most part.
But the thing is, they also taught me character and how to live, and so now that I am on my own, I don't really drink(not going to say I never, but I only rarely do), never did any drugs, use my money wisely, constantly try to improve myself, work hard, have fun, etc, etc. I'm not going to say my childhood was perfect, I really could have used more social interaction, but that wasn't totally their fault, we lived in a weird area.
And saying all this...i'm not trying to brag on myself. My parents made me who i am for the most part, and I greatly appreciate all the hard work they did for me.
On January 10 2011 20:21 micronesia wrote: Why are AP classes 'better'? Do you measure how good school is by how difficult the classes are? I don't get it.
Because they are meant to be university-level. But you could also argue that they fail to do this. I think they only perform what they are supposed to do to a pretty limited extent.
Notice how she is complaining about her husband being not strict enough in parenting? I think she may have married the wrong person. Perhaps if she married an Asian husband who shares her way of parenting, she would have a much easier time with her children by sharing the work with her husband.
On January 09 2011 09:07 Half wrote: This Article is a joke. Do you think an Asian parent would have fostered Mark Zucklebergs odd interests in computers, before the dotcom boom of the 2000s? That an asian parent would have allowed Bill Gates to drop out of College? No they wouldn't have, and now there children call these men boss.
Exactly!! I'm Chinese, and I totally disagree with the focus of "Chinese" mothers on force feeding the children with academic stuff. The child will never be as good as one who is genuinely interested in the subject. Besides, creativity, innovative potential and EQ are far more important than pure academic knowledge from rote learning. Granted, getting As are very important, but you don't have to get straight As in college, only in grade school/high school so that you can get into the best universities.
Besides, a person's success in life shouldn't be gauged by his GPA, but gauged by the quality and quantity of the resources under his control, AKA the size of his wallet, the assets he controls, a healthy and happy family, good friends etc.
On January 09 2011 09:07 sikyon wrote: Chinese people looooooove anecdotal evidence. They LOVE to tell stories. The trick is to basically ask for citations. I ask for citations to anecdotes all the time, statistical evidence. It's really hard to make your point against someone who keeps asking for statistics and citations when you try to plow them with anecdotes, and then looks smug and basically shrugs their shoulders in an "I don't really care what you have to say" way when they ask you for citations.
Anyhow all my mom's "parenting" did for me... was not much. I didn't learn french, I cheated on tests, I got out as fast as I could. I stopped playing the piano, I didn't do homework and I lied all the time.
But I do see where they are comming from. If I wasn't inherently very smart anyways (and liked thinking and learning) I would have ended up as a mediocre person. Asian parents are often trying to push medicore people into being exceptional - the cracks and leaks start to show when they are asked to innovate, come up with new ideas, and work creatively (as it has shown in many of my classmates in university).
Self-esteem is also exceptionally important to a society. Compare the cultures of entreprenuralism in Europe and North america. In the US if you start a buisness and fail, that's a notch in your hat. It's not about how many times or how hard you fail, it's about how well you can get back up. And people respect that, and this sort of culture is what makes buisness so succesful in North America. In Europe, going bankrupt is like a death knell.
When people try to push themselves hard and make themselves the best I laugh. If you want to get ahead in life, don't try to make yourself the best. Unless you are a true genius (in which case you'll succeed regardless), 1 person cannot produce as much as 2 people or 5 people of medicore quality can. But a person who can harness the strengths of a group of people makes themselves exponentially more valuable. If you want your kid to be successful, you should be drilling them in how to manipulate people, not into being a tool for someone else to use.
Wow, you have been reading Robert Kiyosaki, haven't you? Btw, I agree with you wholeheartedly. It is people who creates (entrepreneurs/business owners) that will become legends in human history, and those who follow (the employees/glorified grunts like Managers/Directors) will fade with time.
To everyone talking about how Asians are underrepresented at senior executive level: You're assuming that going up the ranks only depends on the individual's personal ability. What about potential bias inherent in the people who are responsible for choosing the senior executives?
This article is a bunch of anecdotal bullshit! For every success story of how a star was made by chaining her to the piano and smacking the side of her ribs with a belt whenever she messed up her scales, there are 100 more examples of losers raised this way who end up resenting their families forever, becoming alcohol/pot/starcraft addicts and who basically can't lift their asses to do anything unless compelled to by some kind of slavedriver (whether it be work, or the impending rent or what not). These people are like cart horses, capable, strong even intelligent but because of their conditioning they CANNOT work for themselves, they only work for the STING of the TASKMASTERS LASH. And as such they sink into menial jobs and depression and sweet marijuana. I am such a child. This is my anecdotal bullshit story.
Based on these posts saying that this the asian mother's way of teaching is horrible either have western culture deeply embedded in them, or they are still kids being pushed by their parents who don't realize the model's benefits yet.
This method is not crap, but just different to the one used in the west. I guess since this teaching model is based on Confucianism, those who are not brought up under this philosophy of life might not see the benefits to this teaching model.
On January 10 2011 21:54 HanSoo wrote: This article, while it contains some inaccuracies I think deserves way more credit than most people are giving it.
I agree here, while i strongly disagree with forcing specific interests on your children (like MUST play piano etc) i also think a lot of western parents spoil thier children silly resulting in horrible work ethics, disastrous self-confidence and next to no willpower.
I think the ideal parenting technique is somewhere in the middle. American parents are generally not strict enough and there are a lot of terrible results because of it. Except for specific genetic conditions, children should not be overweight. Any fat kid is the result of an abusive parent that should not be allowed to have any more kids. I think this physical conditioning should be part of the well-rounded curriculum every parent should teach their child.
Yeah, i looking back most of my really succesful friends have been raised in the "middle" meaning strict parenting but still letting the child choose his own way in life. You want to play football? Fine but you take it seriously and dont skip out on practice and practise off-hours aswell. Want to play computer games? Fine but only after you are done with your home-work and assuming your grades dont slip and i still expect you to do some sort of physical activity aswell.
This would include:
- Formal Education (Math, Science, English) - Foreign Language (Every child should be taught 1 foreign language while growing up) - Music (Any respectable instrument will do, but start early) - Interpersonal skills (Teach them leadership and communication skills) - Health (Eating a healthy diet and exercising regularly) - Finance (Most parents don't teach their children ANYTHING about money because they don't know how to manage it themselves)
This is going overboard imo, you can still impart a strong character on a child who dislikes the science-subjects. Well, Health and Finance should be included without a doubt, but i consider that so basic that it is hardly worth mentioning.
Would also go back to the OP:
Western parents worry a lot about their children's self-esteem. But as a parent, one of the worst things you can do for your child's self-esteem is to let them give up. On the flip side, there's nothing better for building confidence than learning you can do something you thought you couldn't.
This so many times over. Parents that "step in" and take over whenever the child is struggling with something is a sure way of raising a kid who belives he/she cant do anything and has no idea how to move forward and overcome difficulties or solve problems. I see this so often mostly among girls my age, both in private and in work.
On January 10 2011 17:29 xarthaz wrote: There is a fundamental problem with your argumentation - academic success and behaviorisms create the bureaucratic mind: excellent at complying to regulations and strict procedures as determined by their superiors. After all, that is all that kids have to do during school and college/university. This sort of mind works well in the government areas: government/academic industry, government institutions.
In the market sphere however, where regulations by superiors dont other than a single one: to maximize the difference between money costs of labour and sales revenue, those virtues are nearly useless. Completely different mindset, that of innovation, emotional intelligence of consumer enjoyment preferences, is necessary.
The fact of the matter is, for the productive part of society, the growth of the strict academic mentality and the means used for it is virtually useless in fulfilling the goals of their employment.
Academic success has a very strong correlation with career success. Please stop spreading the borderline racist lie that Asian parenting is only good at creating mindless automotons. The smartest Asians succeed at engineering, medicine, and other "hard science" careers. Those are exactly the kind of careers that require innovation and creativity.
Many of the people who developed the systems for "hard science" were raised by western parents.. anything new would later require "rigorous proof" It's rare to ever hear anything involving new findings even in the fields of science... http://english.sina.com/life/2009/0606/246541.html
On January 10 2011 21:54 HanSoo wrote: This article, while it contains some inaccuracies I think deserves way more credit than most people are giving it.
As an adult now I only wished my parents were this stereotypically strict. Children don't want to work and will for the most part take the easy route. Many of these children grow up into lazy entitled adults that are like cancer to the world. I wished I would have been forced to play piano for hours on end instead of playing video games. If they forced me to do this as a child I would be completely pissed and probably hate them. As my maturity grew however I'd love them for it and be eternally grateful.
I think the ideal parenting technique is somewhere in the middle. American parents are generally not strict enough and there are a lot of terrible results because of it. Except for specific genetic conditions, children should not be overweight. Any fat kid is the result of an abusive parent that should not be allowed to have any more kids. I think this physical conditioning should be part of the well-rounded curriculum every parent should teach their child.
This would include:
- Formal Education (Math, Science, English) - Foreign Language (Every child should be taught 1 foreign language while growing up) - Music (Any respectable instrument will do, but start early) - Interpersonal skills (Teach them leadership and communication skills) - Health (Eating a healthy diet and exercising regularly) - Finance (Most parents don't teach their children ANYTHING about money because they don't know how to manage it themselves)
A child that has all of the above skills will become a well-rounded, successful adult. I think the "you're fine just the way you are" mentality breeds mediocrity and stifles innovation.
Anything is more fun if you're really good at it. I'm sure most kids wouldn't find chess "fun" but take a look at Judit Polgár. She was raised by parents with the number 1 priority to make her a chess prodigy. She is now unarguably the best female chess player in the world. Sacrificing a bit of "childhood" to ensure you enjoy the rest of your life seems desirable.
Many of the people who developed the systems for "hard science" were raised by western parents.. anything new would later require "rigorous proof" It's rare to ever hear anything involving new findings even in the fields of science... they are certainly hard workers, but it's like rare to see something creative from them if they were raised in that manner...
http://english.sina.com/life/2009/0606/246541.html It's often rare to produce someone such as the child in that link above The child in the above graduated at 11 years old ( has a degree from a university/speaks multiple languages/ )
having them learn about the credit system/usury/money would be good lest they be shylocked... Some people end up being slaves to the credit system such that they are always in debt or have to pay ridiculous usury for a small purchase that ends up being many times in excess of what the original item cost...they also have ppl who calculate how much someone can borrow without bankrupting them, but almost near that...
they also charge 30-40% in Usury despite getting 8.5trillion( "legal tender" ) from the fed(private bank/no more federal than federal express)
giving them a 10% down payment of 50000 dollars means they can start lending out 500000 dollars ( banks can lend out 10x their worth ) ( they lend this to other people ) paying for a 300k house would be significantly higher with the 10-20 years of Usury tacked on it
And the only guy who ever fought against the system was poised in the 30s...( Mcfadden died 2-3 years later )
Sucks that she deprives her children of their childhood. This is lazy parenting imho, its not that difficult to focus on one thing and to force someone to study.
Good parent would be able to balance both, raise a successful child without depriving her kid of his/her childhood. This would require more effort/though than just forcing kids to study and not letting them go out etc.
On January 09 2011 09:07 Half wrote: This Article is a joke. Do you think an Asian parent would have fostered Mark Zucklebergs odd interests in computers, before the dotcom boom of the 2000s? That an asian parent would have allowed Bill Gates to drop out of College? No they wouldn't have, and now there children call these men boss.
Besides, creativity, innovative potential and EQ are far more important than pure academic knowledge from rote learning. Granted, getting As are very important, but you don't have to get straight As in college, only in grade school/high school so that you can get into the best universities.
Just say IQ and save yourself time in the future.
Also, have any of you ever heard of genetics? Upbringing is way, way, way back in importance and has no effect on your character, work ethics, and stuff like that. In other words, letting your children do more of what makes them happy and letting them discover their talents is probably better than the Chinese mother approach.
On January 10 2011 15:13 DarkwindHK wrote: Yes you are absolutely right, this lady is completely "American".
While I agree that we Chinese emphasize more on the academics, it does not mean we love to abuse our children.
This type of mother exists in all cultures, but you may find more of them in America (Asian communities?)
In general, I found USA more conservative than a lot of East Asian countries (Japan, Korea, China)
Nowhere in the article does she describe abuse. At worst, she didn't let her child drink water and go to the bathroom for a small amount of time until she was willing to play the song. She's yelling and making threats, which I'm pretty sure every Asian kid can relate to. In fact, in the face of such obstinacy as described in the article, it's hard to imagine an Asian parent not engaging in similar fashion.
Yelling and making threats counts very much as abuse, especially depending on the age of the child in question. Being emotionally unavailable or distant is abuse. Training a child to fear the lash and creating a rigid atmosphere of control is abuse. I'll go even a step further and argue that excessive negative reinforcement (which apparently is all this woman understands) is abuse. Basically, if you understand anything about reinforcement theory and social engineering, you can see that what this woman is doing (grooming a human being into a robotic, unfeeling slave) is incredibly callous, myopic, and ultimately ineffective.
Children need a lot of things to develop normally, and the one thing they don't need is a cruel, indifferent dictator and taskmaster in the house that only understands results and routinely degrades the worth of the child. You see the possible benefits of this method of parenting - ie, a child that learns the value of a good work ethic and that hard work can overcome anything, but you don't see the all-too-common drawbacks, a child that doesn't learn this lesson and instead learns things you don't want (and I certainly don't want) any child to ever learn, such as learned helplessness, a diminished locus of control, and worst of all, unnatural dependence on the parent as a slavemaster authority figure, which ultimately stunts the child from ever developing into an adult.
As many posters have beautifully phrased it, this woman, as a Chinese mother who married a white man and lives an American lifestyle, sees only the superficialities of the Chinese version of parenting (strict, ends-oriented parenting and an emphasis on academic achievement and work ethic) and has given a good old-fashioned amateur try at it, but because she doesn't understand the underlying concepts and is a poor parent at best, has only managed to replicate something ostensibly similar to the intended results. Her tactics are child abuse. The amount and degree of neuroses induced may be gargantuan. This is not parenting.
I think the most reasonable part of the article is about parents not letting their kids give up on what they start. At the same time not letting their kids start what they can't follow through with. It really does hurt self-esteem, especially if they're all "it's ok you did your best it doesn't matter that you quit." News flash, best can always be made better but it takes hard work and dedication.
On January 11 2011 01:00 yellowmoe wrote: Based on these posts saying that this the asian mother's way of teaching is horrible either have western culture deeply embedded in them, or they are still kids being pushed by their parents who don't realize the model's benefits yet.
This method is not crap, but just different to the one used in the west. I guess since this teaching model is based on Confucianism, those who are not brought up under this philosophy of life might not see the benefits to this teaching model.
I don't ever recall Confucius or Mencius teaching parents to torture their children like slaves and force them to memorize until they escape their grasp. Have you ever read Confucius or Mencius before?
On January 10 2011 15:13 DarkwindHK wrote: Yes you are absolutely right, this lady is completely "American".
While I agree that we Chinese emphasize more on the academics, it does not mean we love to abuse our children.
This type of mother exists in all cultures, but you may find more of them in America (Asian communities?)
In general, I found USA more conservative than a lot of East Asian countries (Japan, Korea, China)
Nowhere in the article does she describe abuse. At worst, she didn't let her child drink water and go to the bathroom for a small amount of time until she was willing to play the song. She's yelling and making threats, which I'm pretty sure every Asian kid can relate to. In fact, in the face of such obstinacy as described in the article, it's hard to imagine an Asian parent not engaging in similar fashion.
Yelling and making threats counts very much as abuse, especially depending on the age of the child in question. Being emotionally unavailable or distant is abuse. Training a child to fear the lash and creating a rigid atmosphere of control is abuse. I'll go even a step further and argue that excessive negative reinforcement (which apparently is all this woman understands) is abuse. Basically, if you understand anything about reinforcement theory and social engineering, you can see that what this woman is doing (grooming a human being into a robotic, unfeeling slave) is incredibly callous, myopic, and ultimately ineffective.
Children need a lot of things to develop normally, and the one thing they don't need is a cruel, indifferent dictator and taskmaster in the house that only understands results and routinely degrades the worth of the child. You see the possible benefits of this method of parenting - ie, a child that learns the value of a good work ethic and that hard work can overcome anything, but you don't see the all-too-common drawbacks, a child that doesn't learn this lesson and instead learns things you don't want (and I certainly don't want) any child to ever learn, such as learned helplessness, a diminished locus of control, and worst of all, unnatural dependence on the parent as a slavemaster authority figure, which ultimately stunts the child from ever developing into an adult.
As many posters have beautifully phrased it, this woman, as a Chinese mother who married a white man and lives an American lifestyle, sees only the superficialities of the Chinese version of parenting (strict, ends-oriented parenting and an emphasis on academic achievement and work ethic) and has given a good old-fashioned amateur try at it, but because she doesn't understand the underlying concepts and is a poor parent at best, has only managed to replicate something ostensibly similar to the intended results. Her tactics are child abuse. The amount and degree of neuroses induced may be gargantuan. This is not parenting.
You have a valid point, but to be perfectly honest, a graduate of Harvard and a Professor of Law at Yale knows how to write an article that does not constitute a confession of crime.
So she's a Chinese mother, she wrote an article about how Chinese mothers are superior? It hardly seems like you could approach the subject matter objectively. Being a strict parent or scolding your kids often doesn't guarantee good kids, the kids also have propensity for guilt and insecurity. Just LOVE your kids.
On January 11 2011 03:17 justle wrote: So she's a Chinese mother, she wrote an article about how Chinese mothers are superior? It hardly seems like you could approach the subject matter objectively. Being a strict parent or scolding your kids often doesn't guarantee good kids, the kids also have propensity for guilt and insecurity. Just LOVE your kids.
Um no. Otherwise hippies would be the best parents. Being a good parent is straddling the fine line between strictness and freedom. Too much freedom and "love and acceptance" just produces useless pieces of crap. Being too strict produces brain dead robots. Oh, and yes love is important, but tough love is part of it.
On January 10 2011 15:13 DarkwindHK wrote: Yes you are absolutely right, this lady is completely "American".
While I agree that we Chinese emphasize more on the academics, it does not mean we love to abuse our children.
This type of mother exists in all cultures, but you may find more of them in America (Asian communities?)
In general, I found USA more conservative than a lot of East Asian countries (Japan, Korea, China)
Nowhere in the article does she describe abuse. At worst, she didn't let her child drink water and go to the bathroom for a small amount of time until she was willing to play the song. She's yelling and making threats, which I'm pretty sure every Asian kid can relate to. In fact, in the face of such obstinacy as described in the article, it's hard to imagine an Asian parent not engaging in similar fashion.
Yelling and making threats counts very much as abuse, especially depending on the age of the child in question. Being emotionally unavailable or distant is abuse. Training a child to fear the lash and creating a rigid atmosphere of control is abuse. I'll go even a step further and argue that excessive negative reinforcement (which apparently is all this woman understands) is abuse. Basically, if you understand anything about reinforcement theory and social engineering, you can see that what this woman is doing (grooming a human being into a robotic, unfeeling slave) is incredibly callous, myopic, and ultimately ineffective.
Children need a lot of things to develop normally, and the one thing they don't need is a cruel, indifferent dictator and taskmaster in the house that only understands results and routinely degrades the worth of the child. You see the possible benefits of this method of parenting - ie, a child that learns the value of a good work ethic and that hard work can overcome anything, but you don't see the all-too-common drawbacks, a child that doesn't learn this lesson and instead learns things you don't want (and I certainly don't want) any child to ever learn, such as learned helplessness, a diminished locus of control, and worst of all, unnatural dependence on the parent as a slavemaster authority figure, which ultimately stunts the child from ever developing into an adult.
As many posters have beautifully phrased it, this woman, as a Chinese mother who married a white man and lives an American lifestyle, sees only the superficialities of the Chinese version of parenting (strict, ends-oriented parenting and an emphasis on academic achievement and work ethic) and has given a good old-fashioned amateur try at it, but because she doesn't understand the underlying concepts and is a poor parent at best, has only managed to replicate something ostensibly similar to the intended results. Her tactics are child abuse. The amount and degree of neuroses induced may be gargantuan. This is not parenting.
You have a valid point, but to be perfectly honest, a graduate of Harvard and a Professor of Law at Yale knows how to write an article that does not constitute a confession of crime.
She basically admits she was breaking the law:
The fact is that Chinese parents can do things that would seem unimaginable—even legally actionable—to Westerners.
I've thought long and hard about how Chinese parents can get away with what they do.
She's not too dumb to admit it. She just believes so strongly that there is nothing wrong with / insufficient about this.
Emotional abuse (also called psychological abuse or mental abuse) can include humiliating the victim privately or publicly, controlling what the victim can and cannot do, withholding information from the victim, deliberately doing something to make the victim feel diminished or embarrassed, isolating the victim from friends and family, implicitly blackmailing the victim by harming others when the victim expresses independence or happiness, or denying the victim access to money or other basic resources and necessities.
Emotional/verbal abuse is defined as any behavior that threatens, intimidates, undermines the victim’s self-worth or self-esteem, or controls the victim’s freedom.[41] This can include threatening the victim with injury or harm, telling the victim that they will be killed if they ever leave the relationship, and public humiliation. Constant criticism, name-calling, and making statements that damage the victim’s self-esteem are also common forms of emotional abuse. Often perpetrators will use children to engage in emotional abuse by teaching them to harshly criticize the victim as well.[42] Emotional abuse includes conflicting actions or statements which are designed to confuse and create insecurity in the victim. These behaviors also lead the victim to question themselves, causing them to believe that they are making up the abuse or that the abuse is their fault.[40]
As in: I love you but you owe me for being my child.
Emotional abuse includes forceful efforts to isolate the victim, keeping them from contacting friends or family. This is intended to eliminate those who might try to help the victim leave the relationship and to create a lack of resources for them to rely on if they were to leave. Isolation results in damaging the victim’s sense of internal strength, leaving them feeling helpless and unable to escape from the situation.[42]
People who are being emotionally abused often feel as if they do not own themselves; rather, they may feel that their significant other has nearly total control over them. Women or men undergoing emotional abuse often suffer from depression, which puts them at increased risk for suicide, eating disorders, and drug and alcohol abuse.
There are some posters who said they do not use drugs or abuse alcohol and I'm not trying to prove it always has to end with this. Discipline is a strong merit but we are focussing here on overdoing things. So if being lazy, abusive dipshit is the only way someone conceives to be the best way, then spare yourself trouble and just wear condoms.
- Formal Education (Math, Science, English) - Foreign Language (Every child should be taught 1 foreign language while growing up) - Music (Any respectable instrument will do, but start early) - Interpersonal skills (Teach them leadership and communication skills) - Health (Eating a healthy diet and exercising regularly) - Finance (Most parents don't teach their children ANYTHING about money because they don't know how to manage it themselves)
This is going overboard imo, you can still impart a strong character on a child who dislikes the science-subjects. Well, Health and Finance should be included without a doubt, but i consider that so basic that it is hardly worth mentioning.
It's basic but I would guess most parents do an inadequate job in reinforcing health and finance. You're supposed to exercise a minimum of 3 times a week for at least 30 minutes to maintain basic health. How many parents do this as a role model to their children? How many parents make their children exercise this much?
Most people don't even have an idea of what a carbohydrate or a protein is and just eat whatever they want. This is also partially why I think a Science education is important. It is more difficult to make intelligent life choices when you don't have the foundation to understand the concepts you need. Having a basic understanding of metabolism will help you understand WHY some foods are detrimental to your health, instead of eating certain foods "just because." I think a person that is able to understand the why will be more likely to develop good habits.
English is important because it doesn't matter how good you are at something, if you're unable to articulate your ideas at an equivalent level then you're a dummy. This is also why interpersonal skills are important. Your kids will be interacting with other people for the rest of their lives and outgoing, extroverted people with strong leadership skills are much more successful in everything.
Foreign language and music might be the least important items on this list, but I think they're important additions if a parent truly wants to do everything they can for their child. It is much easier to learn a second language as a child than it is as an adult. Being bilingual will give your child an intimate knowledge of two cultures and contribute nothing but positive effects for their entire life. If you start early enough it is hardly a burden for the child, yet if they're forced to learn a language as an adult they will be forced into years and years of rigorous study to possibly never achieve the same proficiency.
Yes a person can be a successful and a well-rounded adult without everything on this list, but if you can check off everything then it is almost impossible to not be successful and happy as an adult.
Shouldn't have brought "race" or nationality into the matter of the mix. AND just because they let or don't let a kid do thing does not make them strict or not strict. I was allowed to attend sleepovers, hang out with friends, do extra curricular activities in school, complain about things, play games, play football, get lower grades and so on.
Sleepovers only happened when school was taken care of, same with hanging out. Extra curricular activities were only available after my grades were taken care of. I was rewarded for achieving academic success instead of being chastised for not being perfect and I was rewarded again to be able to play games or have them purchased for me. My mom disciplined me more than what you would be allowed to get away with in America these days, including but not limited to a mouth full of soap, bleaching out a mouth that said "F***" and cold cocking me in the face when I blocked/grabbed her first hand that tried to slap me and she punched me in the face". I respect her more than any person on the planet.
Now to measure my success: Near the top of my high school class, no motivation in my early adult career, i escaped a dead end job and I am comfortable and happy now. I'll be getting the education that is apparently "making a difference in this horrible economy" where all my friends graduated already and are now enjoying their 60k debt making significantly less than I because of my years of experience now.
I feel so fucking bad for this woman's husband and kids. Can't really blame her though, she probably had shit parents too and has no idea how to raise kids without torturing them. Having a successful life does not solely consist of being at the top of your class. I had a mother like this (not asian though); I haven't spoken to her in years. My greatest fear is that somehow I'll end up like her.
On January 09 2011 09:07 Half wrote: This Article is a joke. Do you think an Asian parent would have fostered Mark Zucklebergs odd interests in computers, before the dotcom boom of the 2000s? That an asian parent would have allowed Bill Gates to drop out of College? No they wouldn't have, and now there children call these men boss.
Besides, creativity, innovative potential and EQ are far more important than pure academic knowledge from rote learning. Granted, getting As are very important, but you don't have to get straight As in college, only in grade school/high school so that you can get into the best universities.
Just say IQ and save yourself time in the future.
Also, have any of you ever heard of genetics? Upbringing is way, way, way back in importance and has no effect on your character, work ethics, and stuff like that. In other words, letting your children do more of what makes them happy and letting them discover their talents is probably better than the Chinese mother approach.
What? You're going to have to cite all those claims, there's no way you can just say "upbringing has no effect on character or work ethic" and leave! And all evidence I've seen that IQ is a strong predictor of success, like The Bell Curve, has been ripped apart as far as I remember.
On January 11 2011 05:20 Cambam wrote: So can anyone link an article showing that laziness and recess and video games leads to more creativity?
So can you quote any post actually saying that doing nothing but this leads to more creativity? Are 'torture your kid' and 'always let your kid do whatever he wants' really your only options, the only choices you can make?
edit: There are some baseless opinions, for example that about genetics in quote in post above mine. There is a lot of people in this thread though, getting aggravated after reading what seems to them to be 'voices for western style of parenting'. For me those are voicing concern for the girls after reading about obvious abuse and not immediately justifying leniency and whatever else can be applied to "western parenting".
being a halfie, and having a lot of full blooded chinese friends i will say this.
altho the rules differ from household to household, Marks were everything and pysical punishment was common.
95% was a BAD grade unless it was top grade and a lot of my friends would cry over these scores. On the plus side they all have good jobs and still respect and love there parents.
One of my cousins was from the same module, it was "study, study, study" he was top of his school, was awared some fancy award from the govt' got a free ride into uni and now works in a law firm.
in contrast from my grade the "western" children that had it easy are now "all" in retail.
I do agree with the bill gates comments, but sadly this is just how our school system is built, it does not reward our own thinking or creativity, but more copy and paste from memory.
I think the author's methods border on the extreme, and as a child of Chinese parents I'm glad to say that my parents were very supportive of whatever I chose to do, academically-related or not.
That said, there's a good idea buried within the author's piles of anecdotal evidence, which is in the form of this line about 1/3 into the article:
"Western parents are concerned about their children's psyches. Chinese parents aren't. They assume strength, not fragility, and as a result they behave very differently."
Even though in the author's case, it resulted in her forcing her daughter to sit in front of the piano and deny her the right to urinate, this core idea has some merit in my opinion. I don't think it's the job of the parent to be a child's eternal cheer squad; sometimes a parent should push their kids hard because they believe the child can be better than they are as long as it's within reason. Clearly this author has missed that last part.
I'm chinese and I believe forcing your kids to do the shit you want them to do does not make them succeed. It helps in some cases but in many cases make kids sad.
To be a real successful person you have to have interest and passion in what your doing. If you love piano and play 5 hours a day, it would be more effective then being forced to play 5 hours a day.
On January 09 2011 14:47 PJA wrote: People in the thread who proudly say that they argue over 2 points to get a 99 instead of 97 are epic.
Don't you realize that all you're doing is wasting your time, wasting your professor's time, and being a giant pain in the ass? Since you're obviously getting an A anyway just do something useful, or god forbid, fun.
The thing that bothers me is when their goal isn't fairness. If you get a 98 when you should have gotten a 99 because your instructor made a mistake grading an assignment, then it's okay to politely bring it to their attention at the right time. If you are just arguing to try to get more points you are being an asshole most of the time.
Only post I've read in this thread, so this might be entirely out of context, but since when is university grading even remotely fair? Screw arguing for a single percentage point, I'd first like to know why I have tests with a 50% random correct answer variable for each question.
Er, it's 100% when you know the correct answer. It's only chance when you guess. Complain about education, and then fail at it?
lol I missed this the first time. Way to be wrong and a gigantic tool at the same time.
Very basic test theory:
Every test's goal is to maximize its variance in order to distinguish between participants' results as well as possible. By adding a 50% guessing variable into the mix, you not only reduce the average variance of a university test from 0-100% to 50-100%, you also skew the results in favour of the bad and lucky. The less you know, the more you will guess, giving you higher chances of getting answers correct out of sheer luck.
I can give you a simple enough example. Student a knows 0% of the questions, student b knows 50%, student C knows 100%. The test has 100 questions. Now, in a test with no randomness factor, student a should get 0 points correct, student b 50 and student c 100. In our actual university test with a 50% guessing chance for each question, student a will on average get 50 (!) questions right, student b will get 75 and student c will get 100.
The results don't represent the latent variable (knowledge of the test subject) at all accurately anymore. The results have too little variance, students' results are too close together and the chance factor plays a huge role.
edit: And yes I realize you can try to account for the randomness factor, but most of my professors don't seem to feel that's needed.
On January 11 2011 08:11 jobiasRKD wrote: I think the author's methods border on the extreme, and as a child of Chinese parents I'm glad to say that my parents were very supportive of whatever I chose to do, academically-related or not.
That said, there's a good idea buried within the author's piles of anecdotal evidence, which is in the form of this line about 1/3 into the article:
"Western parents are concerned about their children's psyches. Chinese parents aren't. They assume strength, not fragility, and as a result they behave very differently."
Even though in the author's case, it resulted in her forcing her daughter to sit in front of the piano and deny her the right to urinate, this core idea has some merit in my opinion. I don't think it's the job of the parent to be a child's eternal cheer squad; sometimes a parent should push their kids hard because they believe the child can be better than they are as long as it's within reason. Clearly this author has missed that last part.
This is pretty much the feel-good message I pulled from the article too.
High expectations = success Low expectations = failure
It's proven again and again, whether the expectations be held by a parent, coach, teacher, or whatever. Genuinely believing a kid has ability/potential always improves their outcome, and is the number one predictor of success.
This method is kinda cruel, and while the kids may turn out to be smart, it is unlikely they will grow up to be geniuses, and they will end up with little social lives which can be detrimental to their mental health and may mean they will actually do less good in class. I mean look at the smartest ppl who ever arose, such as Stephen hawking. Im sure he never went through this terrible treatment. You need to experience things such as sleep overs, tv, etc to have a well developed mind. I dont go through this harsh crap and im going to Uni when im 15 (skipping 3 years) and im still top of the class. i also aced last-year-of-high-school maths when i wasn't even in high school. Yes i know that sounds a lot like bragging but im just trying to make a point. My parents do allow me to watch tv and play games, but as many other ppl do, there are a few restrictions to prevent me playing sc2 24/7, but nowhere near as bad as that.
However, Im sure that only a minority of parents force their kids to follow all those crazy rules.
I was the valedictorian for my University in 2009 with a perfect 4.0 GPA. I was also a high school drop out. Success?
My parents allowed me to explore the world and in doing so allowed me to better understand myself and my surroundings. I thank them that they did not raise me in such a brutal manner.
Different cultures go through different means to accomplish a common end; to improve. Sometimes those means focus too much on one area, which is what I think this particular Asian family fell victim to. The children have a lot of catching up to do in terms of social milestones that most of us take for granted.
On January 09 2011 09:07 Half wrote: This Article is a joke. Do you think an Asian parent would have fostered Mark Zucklebergs odd interests in computers, before the dotcom boom of the 2000s? That an asian parent would have allowed Bill Gates to drop out of College? No they wouldn't have, and now there children call these men boss.
Besides, creativity, innovative potential and EQ are far more important than pure academic knowledge from rote learning. Granted, getting As are very important, but you don't have to get straight As in college, only in grade school/high school so that you can get into the best universities.
Just say IQ and save yourself time in the future.
Also, have any of you ever heard of genetics? Upbringing is way, way, way back in importance and has no effect on your character, work ethics, and stuff like that. In other words, letting your children do more of what makes them happy and letting them discover their talents is probably better than the Chinese mother approach.
What? You're going to have to cite all those claims, there's no way you can just say "upbringing has no effect on character or work ethic" and leave! And all evidence I've seen that IQ is a strong predictor of success, like The Bell Curve, has been ripped apart as far as I remember.
You could look up studies on identical twins and adoptees. To me, saying upbringing is more important than genes is the controversial claim.
That IQ correlates with most everything, like future income and even beauty, is a fact that is hard to rip apart. That IQ is inherited is even harder to. There will always be those that disagree, especially when it seems so unfair and inequal.
About the Chinese mother approach to upbringing: If that truly explains why Asian-Americans are so successful, then some completely different reason has to be discovered for the success of Jews, since they don't subscribe to those harsh methods. The common denominator between Asian-Americans and Jews is high IQ.
On January 09 2011 09:07 Half wrote: This Article is a joke. Do you think an Asian parent would have fostered Mark Zucklebergs odd interests in computers, before the dotcom boom of the 2000s? That an asian parent would have allowed Bill Gates to drop out of College? No they wouldn't have, and now there children call these men boss.
Besides, creativity, innovative potential and EQ are far more important than pure academic knowledge from rote learning. Granted, getting As are very important, but you don't have to get straight As in college, only in grade school/high school so that you can get into the best universities.
Just say IQ and save yourself time in the future.
Also, have any of you ever heard of genetics? Upbringing is way, way, way back in importance and has no effect on your character, work ethics, and stuff like that. In other words, letting your children do more of what makes them happy and letting them discover their talents is probably better than the Chinese mother approach.
What? You're going to have to cite all those claims, there's no way you can just say "upbringing has no effect on character or work ethic" and leave! And all evidence I've seen that IQ is a strong predictor of success, like The Bell Curve, has been ripped apart as far as I remember.
You could look up studies on identical twins and adoptees. To me, saying upbringing is more important than genes is the controversial claim.
That IQ correlates with most everything, like future income and even beauty, is a fact that is hard to rip apart. That IQ is inherited is even harder to. There will always be those that disagree, especially when it seems so unfair and inequal.
About the Chinese mother approach to upbringing: If that truly explains why Asian-Americans are so successful, then some completely different reason has to be discovered for the success of Jews, since they don't subscribe to those harsh methods. The common denominator between Asian-Americans and Jews is high IQ.
Maybe because Jews didn't encourage their brightest youths to remain celibate for two millenia...
Maybe the predominance of Jewish small business owners for many years instilled cultural values analogous to (but quite different to) the 'Chinese parenting' mentality (also earning the 'cheap' stereotype no doubt).
You mentioned identical twins which is indeed a way to try to determine how much a child's future is determined by their upbringing vs genetics... but I can't help but recall learning about the upbringing argument becoming more and more prevalent with each day... maybe it's gone backwards in the past few years since I haven't followed?
Dude maybe is intellectually sloppy. U either make the claim and back up with logic, or you don't say it. It's possible to say maybe about anything.
You should address his point about IQ.
If u r a critically thinking person it's important to examine each belief u have scientifically, and not just heed centuries old political mantras about such things as equality.
What we know about humans is that we r all very similar. Genetically our differences bten races relatively tiny.
But we also know that a difference in even one gene can cause big things, like autism, cancer, extreme altherlitic performance.
"If a Chinese child gets a B—which would never happen—there would first be a screaming, hair-tearing explosion. The devastated Chinese mother would then get dozens, maybe hundreds of practice tests and work through them with her child for as long as it takes to get the grade up to an A."
This was the most groundless stereotyping assumption I have read in quite a while. But then again, what can we expect from the author of "World on Fire: How Exporting Free Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Hatred and Global Instability".
Also, I believe misguided nationalism is making China more and more Facist like WW2 Germany.
Definition of Facism "A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism."
On January 09 2011 09:07 Half wrote: This Article is a joke. Do you think an Asian parent would have fostered Mark Zucklebergs odd interests in computers, before the dotcom boom of the 2000s? That an asian parent would have allowed Bill Gates to drop out of College? No they wouldn't have, and now there children call these men boss.
Besides, creativity, innovative potential and EQ are far more important than pure academic knowledge from rote learning. Granted, getting As are very important, but you don't have to get straight As in college, only in grade school/high school so that you can get into the best universities.
Just say IQ and save yourself time in the future.
Also, have any of you ever heard of genetics? Upbringing is way, way, way back in importance and has no effect on your character, work ethics, and stuff like that. In other words, letting your children do more of what makes them happy and letting them discover their talents is probably better than the Chinese mother approach.
What? You're going to have to cite all those claims, there's no way you can just say "upbringing has no effect on character or work ethic" and leave! And all evidence I've seen that IQ is a strong predictor of success, like The Bell Curve, has been ripped apart as far as I remember.
You could look up studies on identical twins and adoptees. To me, saying upbringing is more important than genes is the controversial claim.
That IQ correlates with most everything, like future income and even beauty, is a fact that is hard to rip apart. That IQ is inherited is even harder to. There will always be those that disagree, especially when it seems so unfair and inequal.
About the Chinese mother approach to upbringing: If that truly explains why Asian-Americans are so successful, then some completely different reason has to be discovered for the success of Jews, since they don't subscribe to those harsh methods. The common denominator between Asian-Americans and Jews is high IQ.
Maybe because Jews didn't encourage their brightest youths to remain celibate for two millenia...
Maybe the predominance of Jewish small business owners for many years instilled cultural values analogous to (but quite different to) the 'Chinese parenting' mentality (also earning the 'cheap' stereotype no doubt).
You mentioned identical twins which is indeed a way to try to determine how much a child's future is determined by their upbringing vs genetics... but I can't help but recall learning about the upbringing argument becoming more and more prevalent with each day... maybe it's gone backwards in the past few years since I haven't followed?
Genetics account for 50-60% of IQ. Genetics are very important (more so than for many other traits), but so are environmental factors.
edit: I'm not pulling this number out of my ass btw, it's from my uni textbook for developmental psychology. :p It's still a relatively rough estimate though.
On January 09 2011 09:07 Half wrote: This Article is a joke. Do you think an Asian parent would have fostered Mark Zucklebergs odd interests in computers, before the dotcom boom of the 2000s? That an asian parent would have allowed Bill Gates to drop out of College? No they wouldn't have, and now there children call these men boss.
Besides, creativity, innovative potential and EQ are far more important than pure academic knowledge from rote learning. Granted, getting As are very important, but you don't have to get straight As in college, only in grade school/high school so that you can get into the best universities.
Just say IQ and save yourself time in the future.
Also, have any of you ever heard of genetics? Upbringing is way, way, way back in importance and has no effect on your character, work ethics, and stuff like that. In other words, letting your children do more of what makes them happy and letting them discover their talents is probably better than the Chinese mother approach.
What? You're going to have to cite all those claims, there's no way you can just say "upbringing has no effect on character or work ethic" and leave! And all evidence I've seen that IQ is a strong predictor of success, like The Bell Curve, has been ripped apart as far as I remember.
You could look up studies on identical twins and adoptees. To me, saying upbringing is more important than genes is the controversial claim.
That IQ correlates with most everything, like future income and even beauty, is a fact that is hard to rip apart. That IQ is inherited is even harder to. There will always be those that disagree, especially when it seems so unfair and inequal.
About the Chinese mother approach to upbringing: If that truly explains why Asian-Americans are so successful, then some completely different reason has to be discovered for the success of Jews, since they don't subscribe to those harsh methods. The common denominator between Asian-Americans and Jews is high IQ.
Maybe because Jews didn't encourage their brightest youths to remain celibate for two millenia...
Maybe the predominance of Jewish small business owners for many years instilled cultural values analogous to (but quite different to) the 'Chinese parenting' mentality (also earning the 'cheap' stereotype no doubt).
You mentioned identical twins which is indeed a way to try to determine how much a child's future is determined by their upbringing vs genetics... but I can't help but recall learning about the upbringing argument becoming more and more prevalent with each day... maybe it's gone backwards in the past few years since I haven't followed?
Genetics account for 50-60% of IQ. Genetics are very important (more so than for many other traits), but so are environmental factors.
agreed. Intelligence is made by genetics and the individual.
I just think the culture is too different. Asians stress academics much more important than Western race, thats why we are called the "Model Minority."
On January 09 2011 14:47 PJA wrote: People in the thread who proudly say that they argue over 2 points to get a 99 instead of 97 are epic.
Don't you realize that all you're doing is wasting your time, wasting your professor's time, and being a giant pain in the ass? Since you're obviously getting an A anyway just do something useful, or god forbid, fun.
The thing that bothers me is when their goal isn't fairness. If you get a 98 when you should have gotten a 99 because your instructor made a mistake grading an assignment, then it's okay to politely bring it to their attention at the right time. If you are just arguing to try to get more points you are being an asshole most of the time.
Only post I've read in this thread, so this might be entirely out of context, but since when is university grading even remotely fair? Screw arguing for a single percentage point, I'd first like to know why I have tests with a 50% random correct answer variable for each question.
Er, it's 100% when you know the correct answer. It's only chance when you guess. Complain about education, and then fail at it?
lol I missed this the first time. Way to be wrong and a gigantic tool at the same time.
Very basic test theory:
Every test's goal is to maximize its variance in order to distinguish between participants' results as well as possible. By adding a 50% guessing variable into the mix, you not only reduce the average variance of a university test from 0-100% to 50-100%, you also skew the results in favour of the bad and lucky. The less you know, the more you will guess, giving you higher chances of getting answers correct out of sheer luck.
I can give you a simple enough example. Student a knows 0% of the questions, student b knows 50%, student C knows 100%. The test has 100 questions. Now, in a test with no randomness factor, student a should get 0 points correct, student b 50 and student c 100. In our actual university test with a 50% guessing chance for each question, student a will on average get 50 (!) questions right, student b will get 75 and student c will get 100.
The results don't represent the latent variable (knowledge of the test subject) at all accurately anymore. The results have too little variance, students' results are too close together and the chance factor plays a huge role.
edit: And yes I realize you can try to account for the randomness factor, but most of my professors don't seem to feel that's needed.
The whole point is that people who know more generally do better? Yes? o_O And why would you even aim for a F on a test, which is what you'll get if probability all goes well and you get the 50% mark.
On January 11 2011 13:53 MuffinDude wrote: I just think the culture is too different. Asians stress academics much more important than Western race, thats why we are called the "Model Minority."
On January 09 2011 14:47 PJA wrote: People in the thread who proudly say that they argue over 2 points to get a 99 instead of 97 are epic.
Don't you realize that all you're doing is wasting your time, wasting your professor's time, and being a giant pain in the ass? Since you're obviously getting an A anyway just do something useful, or god forbid, fun.
The thing that bothers me is when their goal isn't fairness. If you get a 98 when you should have gotten a 99 because your instructor made a mistake grading an assignment, then it's okay to politely bring it to their attention at the right time. If you are just arguing to try to get more points you are being an asshole most of the time.
Only post I've read in this thread, so this might be entirely out of context, but since when is university grading even remotely fair? Screw arguing for a single percentage point, I'd first like to know why I have tests with a 50% random correct answer variable for each question.
Er, it's 100% when you know the correct answer. It's only chance when you guess. Complain about education, and then fail at it?
lol I missed this the first time. Way to be wrong and a gigantic tool at the same time.
Very basic test theory:
Every test's goal is to maximize its variance in order to distinguish between participants' results as well as possible. By adding a 50% guessing variable into the mix, you not only reduce the average variance of a university test from 0-100% to 50-100%, you also skew the results in favour of the bad and lucky. The less you know, the more you will guess, giving you higher chances of getting answers correct out of sheer luck.
I can give you a simple enough example. Student a knows 0% of the questions, student b knows 50%, student C knows 100%. The test has 100 questions. Now, in a test with no randomness factor, student a should get 0 points correct, student b 50 and student c 100. In our actual university test with a 50% guessing chance for each question, student a will on average get 50 (!) questions right, student b will get 75 and student c will get 100.
The results don't represent the latent variable (knowledge of the test subject) at all accurately anymore. The results have too little variance, students' results are too close together and the chance factor plays a huge role.
edit: And yes I realize you can try to account for the randomness factor, but most of my professors don't seem to feel that's needed.
The whole point is that people who know more generally do better? Yes? o_O
Not sure if you actually read my post, the point is with a system like that, people who know more will still do better than people who know less, but less so than if it were a fair system. The grades get compressed to mediocre - excellent instead of very bad - excellent.
Very interesting article. Interesting counterargument by a blog called Resist Racism (I'm assuming a Chinese-American author here):
I am a genius. I am successful. Also, I have good self esteem. My parents never told me I was lazy or fat. I’m pretty sure I was often lazy.
So fuck you, Amy Chua, for reinforcing that tired old model minority stereotype. For speaking for an entire group of people and ascribing your abusive parenting to your culture.
(I have an in-law who had a horrific childhood with parents who were abusive. By all accounts, he is a loving and gentle man. He also has a Big Important Job and Great Big Impressive Degrees. But I wouldn’t argue that his “success” demands you replicate his parents’ methods. By the way, he’s white.)
Not sure where I sit on this. On the one hand, I guess to a certain extent I'm an example of how successful this type of parenting can be, since I've accomplished a lot of the things that Chua would want her children to accomplish. I think that our country and this world would be a lot better in certain ways if people focused a little less on feeling entitled to their specialness. I cannot safely say that I would've been able to achieve all that I have on my own without the double-edged sword of parental micromanagement and constant pushing.
However.
I will not be raising my children this way, no matter what a Yale law professor says. I think it's possible to inculcate a good work ethic without making your child's practice piano every day for 10 years if he doesn't want to, and it's possible to instill a sense of high standards without freaking out over a 70 on one test in AP math. There must a way to support without smothering, and guide without controlling, and this is an era where you can't afford to err on the side of obedience - leadership is too valuable a trait in the post industrial age.
At any rate, this article seems meant to stir up controversy to promote Chua's book more than to add any real substance to the issues surrounding styles of parenting. It's done a tremendous job!
My male Chinese-American friend found this gem of a response to the Chua article somewhere:
"I hope you realize that this type of parenting has caused many young asian males, while academically successful, to become socially awkward, creativity challenged and low self-esteem, which funny enough, were probably the reasons why you didn't want to date or marry one of them."
I am Chinese-American and I grew up accustomed to Western Parenting. From my experience, and through my friend's success, I can honestly say that my Asian friends (stricter parenting) have it better (making more money / seeming to be more successful) than my "Western" friends. That said, I cannot state whether they are actually happier becoming Nurses or Computer Engineers...
The strongest message that I got from this article was something along the lines of "People enjoy what they are good at".
Being a devoted game player like most I assume on this board, I play a BUNCH of games. Chess, Starcraft, Magic the Gathering, Poker, LoL, Ping Pong, many various board games and random other computer games that have come and gone. This message really stuck out to me because I never really do enjoy the game until I start winning. Its hard learning new games and when people already know how to play, and crush you over and over again (I have competitive friends), it is really difficult to want to keep playing. You have to develop the skills and understanding of the game to finally get it and start winning.
It seems like if someone was trained to do well in school from the start and practiced it over and over again and was literally forced to do well, they might enjoy it more than those who just skate by...
I am torn when I become a parent on what style to develop for parenting my children... Somewhere in the middle seems best imo
I think it is important to overlook the racial aspect of the article and focus more on the different parenting styles. While we may be upset with the way the author presents her argument we must not allow this to influence our assessment of it. One thing that is particularly striking to me is the discussion on allowing children to give up or pushing them to their limits. While the author's beliefs might be too harsh, the point is a good one. Often I see parents who are satisfied with their child's mediocre performance, something that was not present in my home. The idea that I couldn't learn what was taught at a high level was not there. If I did poorly, it was my fault. Not because I lacked capacity, but because I didn't put in the effort. So now, in university, I have an overwhelming confidence in my ability. Classes require more effort as I continue forward, but there aren't classes that I simply cannot do well in.
Understandably, though, some students will have a much harder time achieving and I do not believe yelling at them until they get it right will work.However, it is my opinion that most of the time when a student is stuck he or she can be made to progress though better teaching methods or continued effort. So while the harsh methods advocated in the article may not be best, there is some value in pushing children to meet their capacity and emphasizing that they are not limited by a lack of ability.
On January 11 2011 16:28 numLoCK wrote: I think it is important to overlook the racial aspect of the article and focus more on the different parenting styles. While we may be upset with the way the author presents her argument we must not allow this to influence our assessment of it. One thing that is particularly striking to me is the discussion on allowing children to give up or pushing them to their limits. While the author's beliefs might be too harsh, the point is a good one. Often I see parents who are satisfied with their child's mediocre performance, something that was not present in my home. The idea that I couldn't learn what was taught at a high level was not there. If I did poorly, it was my fault. Not because I lacked capacity, but because I didn't put in the effort. So now, in university, I have an overwhelming confidence in my ability. Classes require more effort as I continue forward, but there aren't classes that I simply cannot do well in.
Understandably, though, some students will have a much harder time achieving and I do not believe yelling at them until they get it right will work.However, it is my opinion that most of the time when a student is stuck he or she can be made to progress though better teaching methods or continued effort. So while the harsh methods advocated in the article may not be best, there is some value in pushing children to meet their capacity and emphasizing that they are not limited by a lack of ability.
If you overlook racial aspect of the article .... you have nothing left at all. The whole thing is full of stereotypical remarks from someone who has no evidence or scientific study to prove any of the things he has written. Seriously, I am an asian and yeah, competition is tough but we have same strengths and weakness like anyone else. Some parents make their children focus hard on study while some just let them do what they want in their life. Some are geniuses, some are cool while some others are pure assholes. Obviously the author did his 'research' by watching prime time programs (or shall we say "poisonous propaganda of the free market economies"! I am not making that up, just read the name of 'books' he has written! ).
The author forgot one simple thing- All parents love their children and want them to succeed no matter where they from. Its a big world and we all have different cultures so, yeah, there are bound to be some differences.
On January 11 2011 11:29 Orome wrote: Every test's goal is to maximize its variance in order to distinguish between participants' results as well as possible.
No, the goal of norm-referenced tests is to distinguish between results. Which is pretty stupid, unless you're using those results for university admissions or something similar. Many tests are criterion-referenced, and separating participants is secondary to identifying mastery (or not) of material.
On January 11 2011 11:29 Orome wrote: By adding a 50% guessing variable into the mix, you not only reduce the average variance of a university test from 0-100% to 50-100%, you also skew the results in favour of the bad and lucky. The less you know, the more you will guess, giving you higher chances of getting answers correct out of sheer luck.
I can give you a simple enough example. Student a knows 0% of the questions, student b knows 50%, student C knows 100%. The test has 100 questions. Now, in a test with no randomness factor, student a should get 0 points correct, student b 50 and student c 100. In our actual university test with a 50% guessing chance for each question, student a will on average get 50 (!) questions right, student b will get 75 and student c will get 100.
Someone didn't take stats. Increase the number of elements in the test and the problem goes away. The curve shifts up, yes, but the ability to separate students (which apparently is the goal) doesn't change. If you're norm-referencing, the raw scores don't matter anyway.
If you're criteria-referencing, raw scores do matter and you just have to pick a score that's satisfactory and which demonstrates sufficient mastery for your purposes.
On January 11 2011 11:29 Orome wrote: Every test's goal is to maximize its variance in order to distinguish between participants' results as well as possible.
No, the goal of norm-referenced tests is to distinguish between results. Which is pretty stupid, unless you're using those results for university admissions or something similar. Many tests are criterion-referenced, and separating participants is secondary to identifying mastery (or not) of material.
On January 11 2011 11:29 Orome wrote: By adding a 50% guessing variable into the mix, you not only reduce the average variance of a university test from 0-100% to 50-100%, you also skew the results in favour of the bad and lucky. The less you know, the more you will guess, giving you higher chances of getting answers correct out of sheer luck.
I can give you a simple enough example. Student a knows 0% of the questions, student b knows 50%, student C knows 100%. The test has 100 questions. Now, in a test with no randomness factor, student a should get 0 points correct, student b 50 and student c 100. In our actual university test with a 50% guessing chance for each question, student a will on average get 50 (!) questions right, student b will get 75 and student c will get 100.
Someone didn't take stats. Increase the number of elements in the test and the problem goes away. The curve shifts up, yes, but the ability to separate students (which apparently is the goal) doesn't change. If you're norm-referencing, the raw scores don't matter anyway.
If you're criteria-referencing, raw scores do matter and you just have to pick a score that's satisfactory and which demonstrates sufficient mastery for your purposes.
I'm not talking about norm-referenced tests obviously. Raw scores do matter in this case and the number of elements isn't high enough to get a satifactory confidence interval. I'm talking about a very specific test given at my university for a specific subject, not dichotomic tests in general.
Secondly, the curve shifting up (if I'm understanding what you mean by curve shifting up correctly, methodology is harder in your non-native language) does matter because you're not only trying to separate between pass and fail but also between different pass and fail grades. Because the randomness factor in these tests isn't accounted for, the range of results is only between just a fail (I'd assume that's a D+ in US terms) and 100%.
So in the end you have both a randomness factor that is unacceptable for any serious test, leading to huge confidence intervals and a grading range that doesn't even cover the bottom half of possible grades.
edit: and no matter how many items you add, a test format like this will always be biased towards people who know less (ie. guess more) unless you account for the randomness factor, which this test doesn't do. what adding items does is decrease the variance between participants with the same amount of knowledge, but it doesn't change the average result differential between participants with a different amount of knowledge.
Being Turkish, I come from a somewhat asian family.
I'm a masters student in materials engineering. gonna submit my thesis in two weeks and already applied for phd studies.
I'm good at what I do, and I love it. The problem is I hate being tested of having to prove how good I am. I simply wanna do something useful. Not to get high grades or get a diploma. Just to do experiments for experimenting alone. I'm still judged by my GPA.
I got 110 over 120 from TOEFL and people around me who can barely make 60 stand in awe. People who have seen me speak or write english multiple times and even asked for help on several occasions stand in awe NOW that I got a piece of paper that says I kick ass by their standards.
I absolutely hate being standardized, graded, ranked. I don't hate being criticized, mind you, just being treated as a number.
Success can't be judged by standardized methods. People are generally obsessed with incentives and ranks, therefore methods to grade what is essentially not gradable are invented.
I therefore, hate people for what they are. For their fucked up nature. For their unwavering obsession on personal status relative to others. Most people I know wouldn't study a minute if not for grades. Wouldn't read a single page if they weren't gonna be tested. Wouldn't have played a single match of SC if not for ladder points. Wouldn't treat people nice if not for religion (or fear of being beaten).
This is what asian upbringing (not even half as harsh as the OP article) made me into. I'm just another freak who criticizes the system for his own mistakes, blames grades and ranks for his laziness.
So all the people out there who are happy to be judged by the weight of your wallet, GPA or ladder points, I hope wails of yet another unsuccessful loser will entertain you. You deserve it.
On January 09 2011 09:07 Half wrote: This Article is a joke. Do you think an Asian parent would have fostered Mark Zucklebergs odd interests in computers, before the dotcom boom of the 2000s? That an asian parent would have allowed Bill Gates to drop out of College? No they wouldn't have, and now there children call these men boss.
Besides, creativity, innovative potential and EQ are far more important than pure academic knowledge from rote learning. Granted, getting As are very important, but you don't have to get straight As in college, only in grade school/high school so that you can get into the best universities.
Just say IQ and save yourself time in the future.
Also, have any of you ever heard of genetics? Upbringing is way, way, way back in importance and has no effect on your character, work ethics, and stuff like that. In other words, letting your children do more of what makes them happy and letting them discover their talents is probably better than the Chinese mother approach.
What? You're going to have to cite all those claims, there's no way you can just say "upbringing has no effect on character or work ethic" and leave! And all evidence I've seen that IQ is a strong predictor of success, like The Bell Curve, has been ripped apart as far as I remember.
You could look up studies on identical twins and adoptees. To me, saying upbringing is more important than genes is the controversial claim.
That IQ correlates with most everything, like future income and even beauty, is a fact that is hard to rip apart. That IQ is inherited is even harder to. There will always be those that disagree, especially when it seems so unfair and inequal.
About the Chinese mother approach to upbringing: If that truly explains why Asian-Americans are so successful, then some completely different reason has to be discovered for the success of Jews, since they don't subscribe to those harsh methods. The common denominator between Asian-Americans and Jews is high IQ.
Maybe because Jews didn't encourage their brightest youths to remain celibate for two millenia...
Maybe the predominance of Jewish small business owners for many years instilled cultural values analogous to (but quite different to) the 'Chinese parenting' mentality (also earning the 'cheap' stereotype no doubt).
You mentioned identical twins which is indeed a way to try to determine how much a child's future is determined by their upbringing vs genetics... but I can't help but recall learning about the upbringing argument becoming more and more prevalent with each day... maybe it's gone backwards in the past few years since I haven't followed?
Genetics account for 50-60% of IQ. Genetics are very important (more so than for many other traits), but so are environmental factors.
edit: I'm not pulling this number out of my ass btw, it's from my uni textbook for developmental psychology. :p It's still a relatively rough estimate though.
How much of IQ is inherited and not is poorly understood. I know a review of 111 studies on identical twins reached the number 86% heritable, i.e. identical twins raised apart are 86% similar in regard to IQ. Adopted unrelated siblings raised together are 0% similar in regard to IQ. Heritability of IQ also rises from childhood into adulthood, which is rather counter-intuitive.
If we look at brain mass, amount of gray matter in the frontal lobe, and the shape of the frontal lobe itself, all of which carry what we call the general intelligence level and IQ, they are all highly heritable, and in the case of the shape of the frontal lobe as heritable as fingerprints.
All in all, 50% is a LOW estimate of IQ inheritability. And what the non-heritable stuff is we don't know either. Breastfeeding seems to be great, though. Nutrition in general, probably.
On January 11 2011 15:53 Raw wrote: Somewhere in the middle seems best imo
Quote this. Also, shitty parents are shitty parents. They exist anywhere you'd go, and that makes me sad. I would like to know percentage of suicides between chinese kids and teenagers, I assume it is very high. Though I dont think that western-like system is all right. Everybody have to seek for his own happines, it is never a thing that can be obtained easily... These are my thoughts.
I'd say having the strict asian upbringing has screwed me up socially and emotionally. Although I did get pretty good grades in Uni and highschool yet I don't exactly have a well paying job
On January 09 2011 09:07 Half wrote: This Article is a joke. Do you think an Asian parent would have fostered Mark Zucklebergs odd interests in computers, before the dotcom boom of the 2000s? That an asian parent would have allowed Bill Gates to drop out of College? No they wouldn't have, and now there children call these men boss.
Besides, creativity, innovative potential and EQ are far more important than pure academic knowledge from rote learning. Granted, getting As are very important, but you don't have to get straight As in college, only in grade school/high school so that you can get into the best universities.
Just say IQ and save yourself time in the future.
Also, have any of you ever heard of genetics? Upbringing is way, way, way back in importance and has no effect on your character, work ethics, and stuff like that. In other words, letting your children do more of what makes them happy and letting them discover their talents is probably better than the Chinese mother approach.
What? You're going to have to cite all those claims, there's no way you can just say "upbringing has no effect on character or work ethic" and leave! And all evidence I've seen that IQ is a strong predictor of success, like The Bell Curve, has been ripped apart as far as I remember.
You could look up studies on identical twins and adoptees. To me, saying upbringing is more important than genes is the controversial claim.
That IQ correlates with most everything, like future income and even beauty, is a fact that is hard to rip apart. That IQ is inherited is even harder to. There will always be those that disagree, especially when it seems so unfair and inequal.
About the Chinese mother approach to upbringing: If that truly explains why Asian-Americans are so successful, then some completely different reason has to be discovered for the success of Jews, since they don't subscribe to those harsh methods. The common denominator between Asian-Americans and Jews is high IQ.
Maybe because Jews didn't encourage their brightest youths to remain celibate for two millenia...
Maybe the predominance of Jewish small business owners for many years instilled cultural values analogous to (but quite different to) the 'Chinese parenting' mentality (also earning the 'cheap' stereotype no doubt).
You mentioned identical twins which is indeed a way to try to determine how much a child's future is determined by their upbringing vs genetics... but I can't help but recall learning about the upbringing argument becoming more and more prevalent with each day... maybe it's gone backwards in the past few years since I haven't followed?
Genetics account for 50-60% of IQ. Genetics are very important (more so than for many other traits), but so are environmental factors.
edit: I'm not pulling this number out of my ass btw, it's from my uni textbook for developmental psychology. :p It's still a relatively rough estimate though.
How much of IQ is inherited and not is poorly understood. I know a review of 111 studies on identical twins reached the number 86% heritable, i.e. identical twins raised apart are 86% similar in regard to IQ. Adopted unrelated siblings raised together are 0% similar in regard to IQ. Heritability of IQ also rises from childhood into adulthood, which is rather counter-intuitive.
If we look at brain mass, amount of gray matter in the frontal lobe, and the shape of the frontal lobe itself, all of which carry what we call the general intelligence level and IQ, they are all highly heritable, and in the case of the shape of the frontal lobe as heritable as fingerprints.
All in all, 50% is a LOW estimate of IQ inheritability. And what the non-heritable stuff is we don't know either. Breastfeeding seems to be great, though. Nutrition in general, probably.
Hm, your numbers are strange. The 0.86 number is from a well-known study, but that study also gives the correlation for adopted siblings raised together as 0.25, not 0.
On January 09 2011 09:07 Half wrote: This Article is a joke. Do you think an Asian parent would have fostered Mark Zucklebergs odd interests in computers, before the dotcom boom of the 2000s? That an asian parent would have allowed Bill Gates to drop out of College? No they wouldn't have, and now there children call these men boss.
Besides, creativity, innovative potential and EQ are far more important than pure academic knowledge from rote learning. Granted, getting As are very important, but you don't have to get straight As in college, only in grade school/high school so that you can get into the best universities.
Just say IQ and save yourself time in the future.
Also, have any of you ever heard of genetics? Upbringing is way, way, way back in importance and has no effect on your character, work ethics, and stuff like that. In other words, letting your children do more of what makes them happy and letting them discover their talents is probably better than the Chinese mother approach.
What? You're going to have to cite all those claims, there's no way you can just say "upbringing has no effect on character or work ethic" and leave! And all evidence I've seen that IQ is a strong predictor of success, like The Bell Curve, has been ripped apart as far as I remember.
You could look up studies on identical twins and adoptees. To me, saying upbringing is more important than genes is the controversial claim.
That IQ correlates with most everything, like future income and even beauty, is a fact that is hard to rip apart. That IQ is inherited is even harder to. There will always be those that disagree, especially when it seems so unfair and inequal.
About the Chinese mother approach to upbringing: If that truly explains why Asian-Americans are so successful, then some completely different reason has to be discovered for the success of Jews, since they don't subscribe to those harsh methods. The common denominator between Asian-Americans and Jews is high IQ.
Maybe because Jews didn't encourage their brightest youths to remain celibate for two millenia...
Maybe the predominance of Jewish small business owners for many years instilled cultural values analogous to (but quite different to) the 'Chinese parenting' mentality (also earning the 'cheap' stereotype no doubt).
You mentioned identical twins which is indeed a way to try to determine how much a child's future is determined by their upbringing vs genetics... but I can't help but recall learning about the upbringing argument becoming more and more prevalent with each day... maybe it's gone backwards in the past few years since I haven't followed?
Genetics account for 50-60% of IQ. Genetics are very important (more so than for many other traits), but so are environmental factors.
edit: I'm not pulling this number out of my ass btw, it's from my uni textbook for developmental psychology. :p It's still a relatively rough estimate though.
How much of IQ is inherited and not is poorly understood. I know a review of 111 studies on identical twins reached the number 86% heritable, i.e. identical twins raised apart are 86% similar in regard to IQ. Adopted unrelated siblings raised together are 0% similar in regard to IQ. Heritability of IQ also rises from childhood into adulthood, which is rather counter-intuitive.
If we look at brain mass, amount of gray matter in the frontal lobe, and the shape of the frontal lobe itself, all of which carry what we call the general intelligence level and IQ, they are all highly heritable, and in the case of the shape of the frontal lobe as heritable as fingerprints.
All in all, 50% is a LOW estimate of IQ inheritability. And what the non-heritable stuff is we don't know either. Breastfeeding seems to be great, though. Nutrition in general, probably.
Hm, your numbers are strange. The 0.86 number is from a well-known study, but that study also gives the correlation for adopted siblings raised together as 0.25, not 0.
Yeah, for children. Bouchard quotes a correlation of essentially 0 for young adults. One study showed a correlation of 0.19 but the rest hovered slightly above and below the 0 figure. As I said, the heritability rises with age counter-intuitively.
The adult data, however, show an entirely different picture (Loehlin et al. 1997; Scarr and Weinberg 1978; Scarr et al. 1993; Teasdale and Owen 1984). They suggest an estimate of essentially 0 (0.04). There are fewer adult studies, and one study does provide an estimate of 0.19 (Scarr et al. 1993). Two studies in this group report longitudinal data: Scarr and Weinberg (1978) and Scarr et al. (1993). Scarr and Weinberg (1978), with a sample of 108, found that the drop from childhood to adulthood was from 0.31 to 0.19. In the Texas Adoption Study both the adopted versus adopted and the adopted versus biological groups declined, from 0.20 to - 0.03 and from 0.11 to - 0.02, respectively (Horn et al. 1979; Loehlin et al. 1997).
There are four modern studies that provide data on the IQ correlation of biologically unrelated children who are reared in the same family. Teasdale & Owen (1984) reported a correlation of .02 for a sample of Danish adoptive male siblings reared in the same home on selective service IQ tests. Kent (1985) compared 52 pairs of adoptive siblings reared together with 54 pairs of nonadoptive siblings between 9 and 15 years of age. An IQ index derived from a phone interview correlated .38 in the sample of nonadoptive siblings reared together. The comparable correlation for the biologically unrelated siblings reared in the same home was -.16. Scarr & Weinberg (1983) obtained a corerlation of -0.03 for their sample of biologically unrelated siblings reared in the same family in the Minnesota study of older adopted children. Similar results were obtained in the Texas Adoption Study. [...] The comparable correlations in IQ for these biologically unrelated children reared together decreased [from .11 and .20] to -0.09 and .05, respectively.
This article is quite frankly, garbage. This coming from a kid raised under "Chinese parenting" outlined in the piece.
I had personally been denied of pursuing various interests when I was younger, this including sports and esports because they "aren't useful in life". And to add insult to injury, I was forced into learning piano for about a decade, I was damn good but I never was interested, and hardly ever will be. These personal experiences, though not to be easily generalized, are downfalls of this style of parenting.
I hold myself back from judging these practices in general because I still love my parents, but one thing I DO know is my kids are going to be free to pursue whatever they wish, as long as they can find happiness in whatever they're doing.
Im asian and have realized something. For all our "consistency" the most briliant minds still come from "western" upbringings. I have found this largely because of the lack of rules and we can do what we want. And when someone wants something they can far surpass any tryhard in the subject.
On January 12 2011 14:40 thefreed wrote: ummm these things CAN seem cruel to foreigners who haven't experienced it first hand... but in my experience some good does come out of it.
I heard countless times from famous asian people that... it was because their mothers raised them that way that they've been able to get that far.
It's hard to understand I know... but it's a different culture anyway, what do u expect?
There are a lot of shades of gray in this. Pushing your kids to realize their potential definitely isn't necessarily bad, in fact I'd say it's very good in moderation, however what this woman's doing is ridiculously over the top. Continually forcing things on kids that they have no intrinsic motivation (this doesn't mean that you don't have to force them to do stuff they're too lazy for sometimes) for isn't doing them a favour, especially when parental love and support given isn't unconditional, but dependant on a kids' result. Telling a kid they're worthless because they got a bad mark at school isn't good parenting.
On January 12 2011 14:40 thefreed wrote: ummm these things CAN seem cruel to foreigners who haven't experienced it first hand... but in my experience some good does come out of it.
I heard countless times from famous asian people that... it was because their mothers raised them that way that they've been able to get that far.
It's hard to understand I know... but it's a different culture anyway, what do u expect?
The Asian American blogosphere has reacted generally negatively. In response to your point, one in particular raised a pretty good point:
Sometimes this gamble pays off in the long run. And when it does, as another blogger's response has pointed out, it makes you rich. Neurosurgeons, corporate attorneys, and investment bankers have plenty-rich parents, you betcha. And let's be honest here, Asian America does have a disproportionately high number of MDs, JDs, and MBAs. Like I said, school's not that hard if [you have nothing else to do].
The link also has a bunch of links from some pretty good and popular Asian American bloggers (including Resist Racism, mentioned before), all generally having the same negative tone towards Amy Chua's..."parenting style."
Being a 1st generation Korean American who's coming along without her "chinese" parenting, I'd personally love the opportunity to tell her to fuck off in person. I get the feeling I'm not alone.
How much of IQ is inherited and not is poorly understood. I know a review of 111 studies on identical twins reached the number 86% heritable, i.e. identical twins raised apart are 86% similar in regard to IQ. Adopted unrelated siblings raised together are 0% similar in regard to IQ. Heritability of IQ also rises from childhood into adulthood, which is rather counter-intuitive.
If we look at brain mass, amount of gray matter in the frontal lobe, and the shape of the frontal lobe itself, all of which carry what we call the general intelligence level and IQ, they are all highly heritable, and in the case of the shape of the frontal lobe as heritable as fingerprints.
All in all, 50% is a LOW estimate of IQ inheritability. And what the non-heritable stuff is we don't know either. Breastfeeding seems to be great, though. Nutrition in general, probably.
You can't account for development during pregnancy with twin studies. Things like smoking or malnourishment during pregnancy would cause a correlation between the twins IQs even though it's an environmental effect not genetic.
Another point is that it doesn't make sense to say IQ is 86% heritable. Or even that 86% is determined before separation. What you can say, is that within the sample 86% of the variation was caused by factors before separation. The key difference is that 86% applies to your sample, and reflects the variation in environmental factors within the sample. The extreme example would be where environmental factors are largely similar after separation. If the separated twins grow up under very similar conditions of course we'd expect them to show little variation in their IQ scores.
To simplify x/(x+y) goes to 1 as y goes to 0 (as long as x isn't exactly 0). So if there is some genetic component it will come to dominate the variation as the environmental effects decrease.
So there might be environmental factors that do matter but don't show up because they don't vary enough within the sample. I've seen suggestions that severe malnourishment during early childhood and certain infectious diseases do affect adversely intelligence. But there probably weren't many of these in the sample to show up in the statistics.
Using the same logic you could imagine that certain forms of parenting, or other environmental factors, could have a positive effect. As long as these are rare enough they wouldn't show up even in large studies or meta-analyses.
A lot of people wonder how Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids. They wonder what these parents do to produce so many math whizzes and music prodigies," writes Amy Chua in her provocative new book Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother. "Well I can tell them because I've done it." With those words she set off a storm of controversy.
Chua's book, which she wrote as a memoir of her conversion from authoritarian Chinese drillmistress to marginally less authoritarian drillmistress has led to people calling heartless and worse. She makes one daughter, Lulu, play piano late into the night until she gets the piece exactly right, with no water or bathroom breaks. She never lets her girls have sleepovers or do drama at school or get less than A on report cards. Result: one daughter gets to play a piano recital at Carnegie Hall. The other, Lulu, rebels, drops violin and takes up tennis. An excerpt under the headline (which Chua did not write) "Why Chinese Mothers are Superior" in the Wall Street Journal led to howls of outrage and accusations of heartlessness and worse from readers. But it's also led to a deeper reflection on the different styles of parenting and whether Western, more child-centered practices are always the best way. Here, Chua gets to make her case.
It's a brave woman in this day and age who writes a parenting memoir. What made you want to do it?
I didn't write this book to tell people how to parent. In fact, I wrote this book in a moment of crisis. I was raised by extremely strict but extremely loving Chinese immigrant parents. To this day I adore them and I feel I owe them everything. I tried to raise my children the same way. My daughter rebelled against this kind of parenting and I felt like my family was falling apart. So the book is about many of the strengths I see in that kind of parenting but it's also about the mistakes. What has provoked the most reaction?
The story I'm getting most flak for her is one I stand by. My daughters find the trouble I'm getting in for it incredibly funny. My kids were maybe seven and four and my husband had forgotten my birthday so at the last minute we went to this mediocre Italian restaurant and he said “O.K., girls you both have a little surprise for mommy.” And my daughter Lulu pulls out a card, but the card was just a piece of paper folded crookedly in half with a big smiley face and it said Happy Birthday Mom. And I looked at it and I gave it back and I said “This isn't good enough. I want something that you put a little bit more time into.” So I rejected her birthday card. People can't believe I rejected this handmade card. But she knew as well as I did that it took her about two seconds to do it. That's the story that's coming off as the most outrageous, which in our family is like a standing joke.
What are the chief differences between the western style of parenting and the Chinese style of parenting?
I think the biggest difference is that I've noticed Western parents seem much more concerned about their children's psyches, their self-esteem, whereas tough immigrant parents assume strength rather than fragility in their children and therefore behave completely differently. I know some of the examples seem very harsh—I've had a lot of emails about that—but I think it goes without saying that love and understanding have to come first, without that it's nothing. At its best I think it's not about achievement, but about trying to help your child be the best they can be and it's usually more than they think. It's saying “I believe in you so much that I know you can be excellent, and I'm going to sacrifice everything and be in the trenches with you and I don't care if you hate me while you're a kid and I'm just not going to let you give up.” That's, I think, a positive message.
What does that kind of parenting look like?
It's much less deferring to the child's wishes. The westerners want to respect their child's individuality and to pursue their passion and to provide positive reinforcement. The Chinese are much more comfortable overriding their children's preferences. I talk about the virtuous circle: most things are not fun until you're good at them and to get good at them, you have to work extremely hard, and kids on their own will not want to work hard at something. My husband adores his parents but he wishes someone had forced him to learn a musical instrument.
Another thing is total respect for parents. I was raised never talking back to my parents. I once won a second prize in a history concert. My parents came to the ceremony. Somebody else had won the prize for best all-around student. Afterwards my father said to me, “Never, ever disgrace me like that again.” When I tell my western friends they are aghast. But I adore my father. It didn't knock my self-esteem at all. To this day my father is my greatest source of strength. Words said in one cultural context may not mean the same thing as words said in another cultural context. Having said that, there are a lot of moments I'm not proud of. This book is making fun of myself. One of the things that working mothers wanted to know, was how on earth did you have the time to do all that with your kids while having such a successful career?
I read my own book and I'm exhausted. I do think it's very difficult. But what I'm calling tough immigrant parenting is not the same as being a helicopter mom. As I understand it that term means the parent is hovering over the child and talking to teachers and principals. When I was little, my father used to say that if something doesn't seem fair, you prove yourself by working twice as hard and being twice as good. Now I think if a kid in school does badly on a test you rush into the school, you question the teacher and the curriculum. I think the kids are strong to be able to hear “Start with yourself, maybe you didn't work hard enough.”
Do you think one of the reasons the reaction has been huge, is that parents fear they're maybe doing something wrong?
I think it's partly the suggestion, maybe, the Chinese way is better. I really just don't believe that. I think there's many ways of being a good parent. I find it very striking that we're calling the values of hard work and be the best you can be and stick with it— that we're calling those Chinese values because I always thought of those as American values. Parenting is such a personal topic. Everyone is reacting against or in favor of the way they were parented or defending the way they're parenting now. It's so emotional. I completely understand it. Is this kind of parenting an immigrant thing or a Western/Eastern thing? I think the Asian approach emphasizes hard work. But you cannot believe how many emails I've had from people whose parents emigrated from Sierra Leone and Nigeria and Ghana and Jamaica and Haiti, who say “I was raised exactly like this. I'd never be the person I was without my mom.” My kids grew up more privileged than I did. I tried to recreate the immigrant experience. I didn't have the same authenticity. My parents never spent a penny on themselves, so when they said 99% is not good enough, I never questioned it. My kids do.
How have your children felt about all the controversy?
They've been really really supportive. The thing that hurts me most is this idea that if you practice this strict parenting you're going to get robots. My children are not robots. They have the biggest personalities. They're always putting me in my place.
What did your parents think?
They were cautious, but completely supportive. We're very close. But I want to spare them any pain, so I hope they don't know how to use the internet.
So, looks like either she's walking it all back big time, or the WSJ did a fucking hack-job on her book and completely misunderstood. She didn't write the article title 'Chinese mothers are superiour', she doesn't believe Chinese parenting is superiour, and in fact half the point of the book is to make fun of herself. Many of the horrible stories she told were not something she's proud of. She said that she wrote the book more as an attempt at self-analyses, to see where she was going wrong, to question her own assumptions about parenting, and that the conclusion she draws in the end is that all that matters is instilling your kids with self-responsibility and good work ethic. And that she considers those American values moreso than Chinese values.
On January 11 2011 12:09 USApwn wrote: I was the valedictorian for my University in 2009 with a perfect 4.0 GPA. I was also a high school drop out. Success?
My parents allowed me to explore the world and in doing so allowed me to better understand myself and my surroundings. I thank them that they did not raise me in such a brutal manner.
Different cultures go through different means to accomplish a common end; to improve. Sometimes those means focus too much on one area, which is what I think this particular Asian family fell victim to. The children have a lot of catching up to do in terms of social milestones that most of us take for granted.
How about you tell us the circumstances of why you dropped out and what university you went to? You assume much
The children have a lot of catching up to do in terms of social milestones that most of us take for granted.
I'm willing to bet that their entire family is more "successful" than your families counterparts.
Interesting that it seems this excerpt is some kind of misrepresentation of her book, according to what she is saying. Fundamental misunderstanding, or simple backpedaling?
I was raised by extremely strict but extremely loving Chinese immigrant parents. To this day I adore them and I feel I owe them everything. I tried to raise my children the same way. My daughter rebelled against this kind of parenting and I felt like my family was falling apart.
Well, I can't see why.
My husband adores his parents but he wishes someone had forced him to learn a musical instrument.
I think he'd reconsider that if he had an actual Chinese parent like this woman.
But you cannot believe how many emails I've had from people whose parents emigrated from Sierra Leone and Nigeria and Ghana and Jamaica and Haiti, who say “I was raised exactly like this. I'd never be the person I was without my mom.”
And here I must protest. Would she feel the same way if she had gotten a ton of emails from Chinese students with severe internet addiction, depression, drug problems, hypersexuality, suicidal thoughts, grown adults who resent their parents, who never talk to them ever, high school dropouts, college failures, and et cetera, also with the same message "I'd never be the person I was without my mom"?
Herein lies the major fault with this kind of thinking. If you survive this type of parenting without some kind of major neurosis of course you're going to believe it was "successful". Despite all the hardships you endured that may or may not have even been necessary in the first place in teaching you the valid life lessons you hold dear and hold your parents responsible for. In fact, I believe there's a term for this kind of thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
Those that were raised this way and came out alright are of course inclined to think it was okay, especially if they're comparing themselves to people on the opposite end of the spectrum - those who were never parented at all and spent all their time playing video games or whatever. And those who raised their children this way and had them come out alright are of course inclined to think that's therefore an acceptable version of parenting. Because we never hear about the spectacular failures, or else attribute them to other causes. If two mothers raise their kids in an identical fashion and one child becomes a Yale Law Professor and the other child strangles her mother to death, we're going to assume the parenting was successful and that the second kid was just crazy. This is called selection bias.
Regarding that christmas card incident, totally agree. Got a pen pal once in middle school in Germany. Wrote a few letters to her in English until my mom found one of the letters and said I was not allowed to write any more letters to her unless I wrote to her in German. So I decided not to write any more letters to her. She was hot though, which sucked.
Also, her attitude toward her kids is almost like the attitude of an associate toward an analyst at a large Wall Street bank.
"This? This card shows no fucking effort whatsoever! You call this effective communication? Why aren't all the fonts aligned? What the fuck is this nonsense! I don't care that it's a gift. I want a re-done, perfect version of this on my desk at 7 AM tomorrow morning. Oh, and show some effort. It'll get you ahead in life."
On January 09 2011 08:44 Gatsbi wrote: honestly i dont care how successful it makes them. thats on par with slavery.. its just too bad the kids wont know any better because thats how they're raised.
edit: once those kids are out of their parents grasp, they go harder into drugs/alcohol/whatever they werent allowed to do than anyone. Explains why 70+% of people in clubs here in SoCal are asian lol.
I get the feeling that people are missing the point of what the mother in that article is trying to say. Yes, she seems very arrogant and self-loathing in a lot of it, but at the same time you have to remember what is fun to some people isn't fun to others. Maybe here it is considered fun to enjoy life and play video games. When I was studying in Japan (yea.. not China but its Confucian), I noticed that the college culture in Tokyo is extremely different that here in the US. It was like I was on a different planet. After class, people just did after school programs like clubs (music, art, sports, martial arts, etc..) until around 8pm. So basically, I would be busy at school since I got up at 7:30am and until i got home around 8:30 pm. This was a normal school day for me in Japan as opposed to what I do here. I have one or two classes and then I sleep the rest of the day--of course by choice, but the college culture also encourages this more here. The mom in this article seems like she is trying to cut a lot of pollution out of the life of her kids by keeping their focus in the right direction--education--which doesn't mean that she is neglecting them a life of fun. It simply means that fun is defined differently in her kids life.
great response, very well written and quite funny in the way it duplicates the other articles ridiculous fallacies and flaws and does the same thing to illustrate a point, gotta say i love it
I am 15, and a sophomore in high school, and I have a lot to say about this
First off, from a very early age, ~4 or so, I was groomed to go to the ivy league by my parents. Continuously told how brilliant I was and how I would go to a great college and have a great life. I learned to read before kindergarten, and felt so superior to all of the other children. I bragged about reading a whole Harry Potter novel in first grade, and always made straight A+'s. And from my parents I had learned that being smart was the most important thing. I didn't have many friends in elementary school. Around 4th grade, I'm still doing great, straight A's, and I have no friends. I have alienated essentially everyone, for being not smart enough or for being competition if they were smart. Anger Issues run on my dad's side of the family, (probably from parenting, not genetics, my dad's dad was alcoholic and his mother is crazy), and I had severe anger issues in elementary school. I once threw a desk at a teacher, screamed often, and once left the room in a fit of tears because I didn't agree with a score i got on a test, and when the teachers were trying to calm me down, I kind of flipped. That got me a solid weekly spot with the school counselor. Which didn't help. At all. I did everything he asked me to do to get out, because I believed that Harvard kids don't go to therapy. I was pretty miserable. Going into middle school, I tried to re-invent myself. I had figured that something was missing, and I was right in assuming that it was friends. So I made friends (kind of) with the other kids who had been raised in similar ways to me. All of us wished our parents would be less strict. I actually did badly in school in 7th grade just to infuriate my parents, which I did. I despised them/
But now it turns around. My parents had just been doing with me what they had done (which had always worked) with my older sister, and they noticed it was making me miserable, so pretty much going into 8th grade, they backed off. I began to do just as well as I had been doing in school before. I made friends with people who had similar interests as me, and I have changed my goals from getting into a great college to being a great person. I tolerate and am friendly to everyone, regardless of intelligence or anything else, as long as they are not just a douchebag. I only take the AP classes I want to take. I study when I feel I need to. And I feel like I have a great grip on my own life. I don't argue for those extra 2 points on the test anymore, because an A is an A and I don't feel like I'm a failure if my grade isn't as good as it could be. I care only about whether or not I approve of myself, not what anyone else thinks. I have not had any discipline or attitude problems since 7th grade, and though my social skills are still not that great (seeing as I am kind of starting from behind), I am happy, and still doing fine in school. And the only parenting my parents have done is give me advice. Meaningful advice that i can choose to follow if I wish to. So my life has turned around because my parents switched to this "western" style of parenting. Although I am not saying the eastern doesn't work for some people, my older sister somehow took all of this. And now I do not despise my parents, I hold them in very high regard.
Want to share a story with y'all. My parents are not as strict as this crazy lady, but you know that Asian stereotype joke where the parents have crazy high expectations? That's actually pretty realistic. There's that Asian father meme with things like "You program in C++? Why no A++?" Clearly that's a joke. And there's that short family guy clip: "You doctor yet?" "No, Dad, I'm twelve." "Talk to me when you doctor."
Well I just had this conversation with my mom (context: I am a freshman in college, and it's pretty hard to get internships with business around the city because they mostly look at sophomores and juniors): "Hey, mom, I found some internships for the summer. This one company has an applied science department that I'm particularly interested in." "Are they finance?" "... no." "Try to get finance."
This was supposed to be a story of how Chinese parents are better at raising kids than Western ones. But instead it’s about a bitter clash of cultures, a fleeting taste of glory, and how I was humbled by a thirteen-year-old.
She also did state that she didn't pick the title for the WSJ article.
Without actually reading the book, I don't feel qualified to say what I think she actually meant to say, but I think unless you have actually read the book, you might want to try and keep an open mind.
On January 17 2011 16:50 random user wrote: I don't think she's backpedeling.
The subtitle of the book is:
This was supposed to be a story of how Chinese parents are better at raising kids than Western ones. But instead it’s about a bitter clash of cultures, a fleeting taste of glory, and how I was humbled by a thirteen-year-old.
She also did state that she didn't pick the title for the WSJ article.
Without actually reading the book, I don't feel qualified to say what I think she actually meant to say, but I think unless you have actually read the book, you might want to try and keep an open mind.
That's nonsense. "What she actually meant to say"? How about reading the words she wrote? There's no reason to assume that she misspoke or misrepresented her own views. She wrote an entire article on the subject, how is that not enough to judge?
It's funny, conservative commentators use that line a lot too. "Please though, keep an open mind and read my book before making any judgement". Well how beneficial it is to the author that every person must buy their book.
On January 18 2011 07:12 sylverfyre wrote: She also wrote a whole book on the subject, which is probably a far more complete representation of her thoughts on the matter than the article.
On January 17 2011 16:50 random user wrote: I don't think she's backpedeling.
The subtitle of the book is:
This was supposed to be a story of how Chinese parents are better at raising kids than Western ones. But instead it’s about a bitter clash of cultures, a fleeting taste of glory, and how I was humbled by a thirteen-year-old.
She also did state that she didn't pick the title for the WSJ article.
Without actually reading the book, I don't feel qualified to say what I think she actually meant to say, but I think unless you have actually read the book, you might want to try and keep an open mind.
That's nonsense. "What she actually meant to say"? How about reading the words she wrote? There's no reason to assume that she misspoke or misrepresented her own views. She wrote an entire article on the subject, how is that not enough to judge?
It's funny, conservative commentators use that line a lot too. "Please though, keep an open mind and read my book before making any judgement". Well how beneficial it is to the author that every person must buy their book.
The article was actually an excerpt from her book. And while she did write that part you need to put it into the whole context of the whole book. And the WSJ chose the title, not her.
For example:
US Allows Slavery! Citizens must return slaves to their owners An excerpt from the US Constitution, Article IV Section 2 No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.
I'm pretty sure most people would agree that excerpt is missing some context.
On January 09 2011 08:33 shindigs wrote: Wall Street Journal published an article titled "Why Chinese mothers are superior" which basically outlines why Asian mothers (or just strict mothers) breed successful kids through methods that would be considered harsh to other parents' standards. The term "Chinese mothers" is used loosley to describe extremely strict mothers of all nationalities (pretty funny that the article starts out as "I'M NOT RACIST BUT...")
Context for the lazy: The author is Chinese and a professor at Yale Law School I believe her kids are only half Asian
A lot of people wonder how Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids. They wonder what these parents do to produce so many math whizzes and music prodigies, what it's like inside the family, and whether they could do it too. Well, I can tell them, because I've done it. Here are some things my daughters, Sophia and Louisa, were never allowed to do:
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Erin Patrice O'Brien for The Wall Street Journal Amy Chua with her daughters, Louisa and Sophia, at their home in New Haven, Conn.
• attend a sleepover
• have a playdate
• be in a school play
• complain about not being in a school play
• watch TV or play computer games
• choose their own extracurricular activities
• get any grade less than an A
• not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama
• play any instrument other than the piano or violin
• not play the piano or violin.
I'm using the term "Chinese mother" loosely. I know some Korean, Indian, Jamaican, Irish and Ghanaian parents who qualify too. Conversely, I know some mothers of Chinese heritage, almost always born in the West, who are not Chinese mothers, by choice or otherwise. I'm also using the term "Western parents" loosely. Western parents come in all varieties.
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Chua family From Ms. Chua's album: 'Mean me with Lulu in hotel room... with score taped to TV!'
All the same, even when Western parents think they're being strict, they usually don't come close to being Chinese mothers. For example, my Western friends who consider themselves strict make their children practice their instruments 30 minutes every day. An hour at most. For a Chinese mother, the first hour is the easy part. It's hours two and three that get tough.
Despite our squeamishness about cultural stereotypes, there are tons of studies out there showing marked and quantifiable differences between Chinese and Westerners when it comes to parenting. In one study of 50 Western American mothers and 48 Chinese immigrant mothers, almost 70% of the Western mothers said either that "stressing academic success is not good for children" or that "parents need to foster the idea that learning is fun." By contrast, roughly 0% of the Chinese mothers felt the same way. Instead, the vast majority of the Chinese mothers said that they believe their children can be "the best" students, that "academic achievement reflects successful parenting," and that if children did not excel at school then there was "a problem" and parents "were not doing their job." Other studies indicate that compared to Western parents, Chinese parents spend approximately 10 times as long every day drilling academic activities with their children. By contrast, Western kids are more likely to participate in sports teams.
When it comes to parenting, the Chinese seem to produce children who display academic excellence, musical mastery and professional success - or so the stereotype goes. WSJ's Christina Tsuei speaks to two moms raised by Chinese immigrants who share what it was like growing up and how they hope to raise their children.
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What Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you're good at it. To get good at anything you have to work, and children on their own never want to work, which is why it is crucial to override their preferences. This often requires fortitude on the part of the parents because the child will resist; things are always hardest at the beginning, which is where Western parents tend to give up. But if done properly, the Chinese strategy produces a virtuous circle. Tenacious practice, practice, practice is crucial for excellence; rote repetition is underrated in America. Once a child starts to excel at something—whether it's math, piano, pitching or ballet—he or she gets praise, admiration and satisfaction. This builds confidence and makes the once not-fun activity fun. This in turn makes it easier for the parent to get the child to work even more.
Chinese parents can get away with things that Western parents can't. Once when I was young—maybe more than once—when I was extremely disrespectful to my mother, my father angrily called me "garbage" in our native Hokkien dialect. It worked really well. I felt terrible and deeply ashamed of what I had done. But it didn't damage my self-esteem or anything like that. I knew exactly how highly he thought of me. I didn't actually think I was worthless or feel like a piece of garbage.
As an adult, I once did the same thing to Sophia, calling her garbage in English when she acted extremely disrespectfully toward me. When I mentioned that I had done this at a dinner party, I was immediately ostracized. One guest named Marcy got so upset she broke down in tears and had to leave early. My friend Susan, the host, tried to rehabilitate me with the remaining guests.
The fact is that Chinese parents can do things that would seem unimaginable—even legally actionable—to Westerners. Chinese mothers can say to their daughters, "Hey fatty—lose some weight." By contrast, Western parents have to tiptoe around the issue, talking in terms of "health" and never ever mentioning the f-word, and their kids still end up in therapy for eating disorders and negative self-image. (I also once heard a Western father toast his adult daughter by calling her "beautiful and incredibly competent." She later told me that made her feel like garbage.)
Chinese parents can order their kids to get straight As. Western parents can only ask their kids to try their best. Chinese parents can say, "You're lazy. All your classmates are getting ahead of you." By contrast, Western parents have to struggle with their own conflicted feelings about achievement, and try to persuade themselves that they're not disappointed about how their kids turned out.
I've thought long and hard about how Chinese parents can get away with what they do. I think there are three big differences between the Chinese and Western parental mind-sets.
Chua family Newborn Amy Chua in her mother's arms, a year after her parents arrived in the U.S.
Weigh in
Amy Chua will answer readers' questions Thursday on Review's new blog, Ideas Market.
Write to: IdeasMarket@wsj.com.
First, I've noticed that Western parents are extremely anxious about their children's self-esteem. They worry about how their children will feel if they fail at something, and they constantly try to reassure their children about how good they are notwithstanding a mediocre performance on a test or at a recital. In other words, Western parents are concerned about their children's psyches. Chinese parents aren't. They assume strength, not fragility, and as a result they behave very differently.
For example, if a child comes home with an A-minus on a test, a Western parent will most likely praise the child. The Chinese mother will gasp in horror and ask what went wrong. If the child comes home with a B on the test, some Western parents will still praise the child. Other Western parents will sit their child down and express disapproval, but they will be careful not to make their child feel inadequate or insecure, and they will not call their child "stupid," "worthless" or "a disgrace." Privately, the Western parents may worry that their child does not test well or have aptitude in the subject or that there is something wrong with the curriculum and possibly the whole school. If the child's grades do not improve, they may eventually schedule a meeting with the school principal to challenge the way the subject is being taught or to call into question the teacher's credentials.
If a Chinese child gets a B—which would never happen—there would first be a screaming, hair-tearing explosion. The devastated Chinese mother would then get dozens, maybe hundreds of practice tests and work through them with her child for as long as it takes to get the grade up to an A.
Chinese parents demand perfect grades because they believe that their child can get them. If their child doesn't get them, the Chinese parent assumes it's because the child didn't work hard enough. That's why the solution to substandard performance is always to excoriate, punish and shame the child. The Chinese parent believes that their child will be strong enough to take the shaming and to improve from it. (And when Chinese kids do excel, there is plenty of ego-inflating parental praise lavished in the privacy of the home.)
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Chua family Sophia playing at Carnegie Hall in 2007.
Second, Chinese parents believe that their kids owe them everything. The reason for this is a little unclear, but it's probably a combination of Confucian filial piety and the fact that the parents have sacrificed and done so much for their children. (And it's true that Chinese mothers get in the trenches, putting in long grueling hours personally tutoring, training, interrogating and spying on their kids.) Anyway, the understanding is that Chinese children must spend their lives repaying their parents by obeying them and making them proud.
By contrast, I don't think most Westerners have the same view of children being permanently indebted to their parents. My husband, Jed, actually has the opposite view. "Children don't choose their parents," he once said to me. "They don't even choose to be born. It's parents who foist life on their kids, so it's the parents' responsibility to provide for them. Kids don't owe their parents anything. Their duty will be to their own kids." This strikes me as a terrible deal for the Western parent.
Third, Chinese parents believe that they know what is best for their children and therefore override all of their children's own desires and preferences. That's why Chinese daughters can't have boyfriends in high school and why Chinese kids can't go to sleepaway camp. It's also why no Chinese kid would ever dare say to their mother, "I got a part in the school play! I'm Villager Number Six. I'll have to stay after school for rehearsal every day from 3:00 to 7:00, and I'll also need a ride on weekends." God help any Chinese kid who tried that one.
Don't get me wrong: It's not that Chinese parents don't care about their children. Just the opposite. They would give up anything for their children. It's just an entirely different parenting model.
Here's a story in favor of coercion, Chinese-style. Lulu was about 7, still playing two instruments, and working on a piano piece called "The Little White Donkey" by the French composer Jacques Ibert. The piece is really cute—you can just imagine a little donkey ambling along a country road with its master—but it's also incredibly difficult for young players because the two hands have to keep schizophrenically different rhythms.
Lulu couldn't do it. We worked on it nonstop for a week, drilling each of her hands separately, over and over. But whenever we tried putting the hands together, one always morphed into the other, and everything fell apart. Finally, the day before her lesson, Lulu announced in exasperation that she was giving up and stomped off.
"Get back to the piano now," I ordered.
"You can't make me."
"Oh yes, I can."
Back at the piano, Lulu made me pay. She punched, thrashed and kicked. She grabbed the music score and tore it to shreds. I taped the score back together and encased it in a plastic shield so that it could never be destroyed again. Then I hauled Lulu's dollhouse to the car and told her I'd donate it to the Salvation Army piece by piece if she didn't have "The Little White Donkey" perfect by the next day. When Lulu said, "I thought you were going to the Salvation Army, why are you still here?" I threatened her with no lunch, no dinner, no Christmas or Hanukkah presents, no birthday parties for two, three, four years. When she still kept playing it wrong, I told her she was purposely working herself into a frenzy because she was secretly afraid she couldn't do it. I told her to stop being lazy, cowardly, self-indulgent and pathetic.
Jed took me aside. He told me to stop insulting Lulu—which I wasn't even doing, I was just motivating her—and that he didn't think threatening Lulu was helpful. Also, he said, maybe Lulu really just couldn't do the technique—perhaps she didn't have the coordination yet—had I considered that possibility?
"You just don't believe in her," I accused.
"That's ridiculous," Jed said scornfully. "Of course I do."
"Sophia could play the piece when she was this age."
"But Lulu and Sophia are different people," Jed pointed out.
"Oh no, not this," I said, rolling my eyes. "Everyone is special in their special own way," I mimicked sarcastically. "Even losers are special in their own special way. Well don't worry, you don't have to lift a finger. I'm willing to put in as long as it takes, and I'm happy to be the one hated. And you can be the one they adore because you make them pancakes and take them to Yankees games."
I rolled up my sleeves and went back to Lulu. I used every weapon and tactic I could think of. We worked right through dinner into the night, and I wouldn't let Lulu get up, not for water, not even to go to the bathroom. The house became a war zone, and I lost my voice yelling, but still there seemed to be only negative progress, and even I began to have doubts.
Then, out of the blue, Lulu did it. Her hands suddenly came together—her right and left hands each doing their own imperturbable thing—just like that.
Read More
In China, Not All Practice Tough Love The Juggle: Are U.S. Parents Too Soft? Lulu realized it the same time I did. I held my breath. She tried it tentatively again. Then she played it more confidently and faster, and still the rhythm held. A moment later, she was beaming.
"Mommy, look—it's easy!" After that, she wanted to play the piece over and over and wouldn't leave the piano. That night, she came to sleep in my bed, and we snuggled and hugged, cracking each other up. When she performed "The Little White Donkey" at a recital a few weeks later, parents came up to me and said, "What a perfect piece for Lulu—it's so spunky and so her."
Even Jed gave me credit for that one. Western parents worry a lot about their children's self-esteem. But as a parent, one of the worst things you can do for your child's self-esteem is to let them give up. On the flip side, there's nothing better for building confidence than learning you can do something you thought you couldn't.
There are all these new books out there portraying Asian mothers as scheming, callous, overdriven people indifferent to their kids' true interests. For their part, many Chinese secretly believe that they care more about their children and are willing to sacrifice much more for them than Westerners, who seem perfectly content to let their children turn out badly. I think it's a misunderstanding on both sides. All decent parents want to do what's best for their children. The Chinese just have a totally different idea of how to do that.
Western parents try to respect their children's individuality, encouraging them to pursue their true passions, supporting their choices, and providing positive reinforcement and a nurturing environment. By contrast, the Chinese believe that the best way to protect their children is by preparing them for the future, letting them see what they're capable of, and arming them with skills, work habits and inner confidence that no one can ever take away.
EDIT: Here is the wiki page on the author: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Chua According to wikipedia, there has a bit of negative feedback to the article so its not universally accepted by the Asian community.
I take it all back, people put this into words better than I have.
On January 17 2011 16:50 random user wrote: I don't think she's backpedeling.
The subtitle of the book is:
This was supposed to be a story of how Chinese parents are better at raising kids than Western ones. But instead it’s about a bitter clash of cultures, a fleeting taste of glory, and how I was humbled by a thirteen-year-old.
She also did state that she didn't pick the title for the WSJ article.
Without actually reading the book, I don't feel qualified to say what I think she actually meant to say, but I think unless you have actually read the book, you might want to try and keep an open mind.
That's nonsense. "What she actually meant to say"? How about reading the words she wrote? There's no reason to assume that she misspoke or misrepresented her own views. She wrote an entire article on the subject, how is that not enough to judge?
It's funny, conservative commentators use that line a lot too. "Please though, keep an open mind and read my book before making any judgement". Well how beneficial it is to the author that every person must buy their book.
The article was actually an excerpt from her book. And while she did write that part you need to put it into the whole context of the whole book. And the WSJ chose the title, not her.
For example:
US Allows Slavery! Citizens must return slaves to their owners An excerpt from the US Constitution, Article IV Section 2 No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.
I'm pretty sure most people would agree that excerpt is missing some context.
That is a terrible comparison.
There's absolutely no reason for you to assume that people are judging the title alone and not the article. Of course it would help to read the entire book, but it's not necessary to make a judgement. This is as ridiculous as when Rush Limbaugh claims that you have to play his entire hours-long radio show to put his comments in context.
On January 17 2011 16:50 random user wrote: I don't think she's backpedeling.
The subtitle of the book is:
This was supposed to be a story of how Chinese parents are better at raising kids than Western ones. But instead it’s about a bitter clash of cultures, a fleeting taste of glory, and how I was humbled by a thirteen-year-old.
She also did state that she didn't pick the title for the WSJ article.
Without actually reading the book, I don't feel qualified to say what I think she actually meant to say, but I think unless you have actually read the book, you might want to try and keep an open mind.
That's nonsense. "What she actually meant to say"? How about reading the words she wrote? There's no reason to assume that she misspoke or misrepresented her own views. She wrote an entire article on the subject, how is that not enough to judge?
It's funny, conservative commentators use that line a lot too. "Please though, keep an open mind and read my book before making any judgement". Well how beneficial it is to the author that every person must buy their book.
The article is several non-conjoined excerpts from her book, where ultimately she decides her methods (as excerpted in the article) were not the best for her children, especially when her youngest child rebels. She did not choose the article's title, and in fact her book suggests the opposite. If you don't feel like an judgmental asshole by now, you should.
On January 19 2011 03:17 Lefnui wrote: That is a terrible comparison.
There's absolutely no reason for you to assume that people are judging the title alone and not the article. Of course it would help to read the entire book, but it's not necessary to make a judgement. This is as ridiculous as when Rush Limbaugh claims that you have to play his entire hours-long radio show to put his comments in context.
If Rush Limbaugh is describing a viewpoint he once had, and then explaining why he no longer holds such an extreme viewpoint, and if someone simply quoted the beginning portion, then yes, you fucking need context to properly judge her opinion.
On January 10 2011 12:15 BraveGhost wrote: Some people seem to be defending the article by saying.. well you aren't providing sources that say a western upbringing is better. Look at all these fancy stats at how much better China is in math etc etc. Well.. I don't care, your basing success on "results", the fact is, it's borderline, if not is, child abuse. Also, I consider life to be pretty much a 1 time deal(I don't believe in reincarnation), who wants to spend 98% of their time from birth to death working , first in school, then at work..... sure, if someone told me I could work 80 hours a week, for 5 years, I am guaranteed to live to 85, have as much money as I want, and never have to work again, I would do it. But sadly, this is not the case.. and therefore, people need to relax and live a little. If you truly think this is a successful method of parenting, and living, then why are you on a starcraft forum. I don't see how this is advancing your goal of becoming 100% robot whatsoever, it's a completely irrelevant activity in the big picture of 100% work, 0% play.
Imagine for a moment you growing up, your not allowed to have friends, and you work 150% constantly. All you have is your parents, you have to succeed or you are called a piece of shit, a failure, etc. What the fuck do you do when they expect more than what you can give them?
Life is really god damn short, you'll realize this when you have people really close to you pass away... at any age. The sooner you figure it out the better. Take some time, play some games, hang out with those that you love and like. Go on vacation with your family, see the world.
Success is not 100% based on money... and school grades, and how you did in piano class. Success imo is based mostly on happiness. Sure... money helps, but being able to do what you want as a career, being what you dreamed of being when you were young..... having a family ( or just getting laid.. whatever you personally want that makes you happy)... anything, that will make you happy.. is success.
Success to me is much different then being brain washed, told to work 100%, make lots of money, don't play cause I was told it was wrong.
If you spend 100% of your time here working and making yourself a success, and then you die before you can retire or have children, or whatever.... what will you have accomplished?
All work and no play, makes for a dull day... Like i've said before, maybe Im a little idealistic, but I am really sad for this ladies kids, and it saddens me more to see people defending these parents actions and justifying it simply by saying, well... they make more money and have better grades.
This lady got a bit of a twisted definition of success. Seems to be entirely motivated by money. Good grades? I got good grades throughout school. 99% of what I learned is useless. Why would I ever want to play a musical instrument? When would that ever be useful? I sucked at math until college. Asian genes kicked in and it was cake. Graduated now, I never use any of it.
Any kid can be molded. Some sports atheletes or singers are often strictly guided by parents. It's not talent or genius. Just lots of strict parenting. A lot of these people often mention they've "been doing this since they were kids." Michael Jackson anyone? That guy grew up resenting the hell out of his father. It's different if the kid WANTS to sing/dance and parents helped them along. It's entirely different when you're forcing it.
That said I do believe she is in over her head. It's good to be strict and guide your kids, but she's overdoing it. Joe Jackson overdoing possibly lol. She's just molding them into what she want's them to be instead of they want to be. But I guess if you do it early enough and remove all "distractions" then you can make them want to be what you want them to be. Raising robots.
On January 17 2011 16:50 random user wrote: I don't think she's backpedeling.
The subtitle of the book is:
This was supposed to be a story of how Chinese parents are better at raising kids than Western ones. But instead it’s about a bitter clash of cultures, a fleeting taste of glory, and how I was humbled by a thirteen-year-old.
She also did state that she didn't pick the title for the WSJ article.
Without actually reading the book, I don't feel qualified to say what I think she actually meant to say, but I think unless you have actually read the book, you might want to try and keep an open mind.
That's nonsense. "What she actually meant to say"? How about reading the words she wrote? There's no reason to assume that she misspoke or misrepresented her own views. She wrote an entire article on the subject, how is that not enough to judge?
It's funny, conservative commentators use that line a lot too. "Please though, keep an open mind and read my book before making any judgement". Well how beneficial it is to the author that every person must buy their book.
The article is several non-conjoined excerpts from her book, where ultimately she decides her methods (as excerpted in the article) were not the best for her children, especially when her youngest child rebels. She did not choose the article's title, and in fact her book suggests the opposite. If you don't feel like an judgmental asshole by now, you should.
A 'judgement asshole', that's a new one. She wrote the article, if it misrepresents her own views then that's her fault. Yes, we know she didn't choose the title, you're only about the 100th person to mention that. If you don't feel like an idiot by now, you should.
On January 19 2011 03:17 Lefnui wrote: That is a terrible comparison.
There's absolutely no reason for you to assume that people are judging the title alone and not the article. Of course it would help to read the entire book, but it's not necessary to make a judgement. This is as ridiculous as when Rush Limbaugh claims that you have to play his entire hours-long radio show to put his comments in context.
If Rush Limbaugh is describing a viewpoint he once had, and then explaining why he no longer holds such an extreme viewpoint, and if someone simply quoted the beginning portion, then yes, you fucking need context to properly judge her opinion.
One huge exception: She wrote the article. This isn't someone else quoting her, as in your example.
On January 09 2011 09:07 Half wrote: This Article is a joke. Do you think an Asian parent would have fostered Mark Zucklebergs odd interests in computers, before the dotcom boom of the 2000s? That an asian parent would have allowed Bill Gates to drop out of College? No they wouldn't have, and now there children call these men boss.
On January 20 2011 07:34 Lefnui wrote: One huge exception: She wrote the article. This isn't someone else quoting her, as in your example.
They're excerpts from her book. It is exactly like someone quoting her out of context. In fact, it's not just one excerpt, it's several excerpts from the first half of the book quoting some of the more extreme and tongue-in-cheek portions (which is somewhat apparent from the face of the article (e.g. literally impossible for her daughter to not get an A), but is much more apparent within the context of the book).
On January 20 2011 07:34 Lefnui wrote: One huge exception: She wrote the article. This isn't someone else quoting her, as in your example.
They're excerpts from her book. It is exactly like someone quoting her out of context. In fact, it's not just one excerpt, it's several excerpts from the first half of the book quoting some of the more extreme and tongue-in-cheek portions (which is somewhat apparent from the face of the article (e.g. literally impossible for her daughter to not get an A), but is much more apparent within the context of the book).
Yes, we all understand. Stop stating the obvious. They are excerpts from her book. She did not come up with the title. We know. And guess who the author of the article is? It's Amy Chua, so if it misrepresents her views then that's on her.
That's why your comparison makes no sense. In your comparison it is someone else quoting Limbaugh, but that's not the case here.
On January 20 2011 07:34 Lefnui wrote: One huge exception: She wrote the article. This isn't someone else quoting her, as in your example.
They're excerpts from her book. It is exactly like someone quoting her out of context. In fact, it's not just one excerpt, it's several excerpts from the first half of the book quoting some of the more extreme and tongue-in-cheek portions (which is somewhat apparent from the face of the article (e.g. literally impossible for her daughter to not get an A), but is much more apparent within the context of the book).
Yes, we all understand. Stop stating the obvious. They are excerpts from her book. She did not come up with the title. We know. And guess who the author of the article is? It's Amy Chua, so if it misrepresents her views then that's on her.
That's why your comparison makes no sense. In your comparison it is someone else quoting Limbaugh, but that's not the case here.
Wow, do you not know the definition of "excerpt"? This is essentially the WSJ quoting Chua. Apparently Chua was not aware that the WSJ would excerpt her book in a way that makes it sound like: (1) she is trying to give advice to other parents, (2) her description is to be taken at face value rather than interpreted as somewhat tongue-in-cheek, (3) that she never disclaimed the overly strict methodology. None of which is true.
It's possible Chua wanted the article to misrepresent her work, in order to garner controversy and additional book sales. But all of this is rather irrelevant. You're still a judgmental asshole for continuing to think the article represents her current views, despite all evidence to the contrary.
On January 20 2011 07:34 Lefnui wrote: One huge exception: She wrote the article. This isn't someone else quoting her, as in your example.
They're excerpts from her book. It is exactly like someone quoting her out of context. In fact, it's not just one excerpt, it's several excerpts from the first half of the book quoting some of the more extreme and tongue-in-cheek portions (which is somewhat apparent from the face of the article (e.g. literally impossible for her daughter to not get an A), but is much more apparent within the context of the book).
Yes, we all understand. Stop stating the obvious. They are excerpts from her book. She did not come up with the title. We know. And guess who the author of the article is? It's Amy Chua, so if it misrepresents her views then that's on her.
That's why your comparison makes no sense. In your comparison it is someone else quoting Limbaugh, but that's not the case here.
Wow, do you not know the definition of "excerpt"? This is essentially the WSJ quoting Chua. Apparently Chua was not aware that the WSJ would excerpt her book in a way that makes it sound like: (1) she is trying to give advice to other parents, (2) her description is to be taken at face value rather than interpreted as somewhat tongue-in-cheek, (3) that she never disclaimed the overly strict methodology.
Yes I do, have any other stupid questions to pose? She is given as the author. I'm not extremely familiar with the procedure of a journal but I would be utterly shocked if she was not involved. I'm pretty sure the WSJ can't just publish a collection of excerpts, cite her as the author, and have absolutely no contact with her about it. I guarantee she either selected the excerpts or approved of the way in which they were given.
Again, as I tried to explain to you, if it misrepresents her views then it's her own fault.
Chua obviously consented to it being published. You can't just publish portions of people's speeches/works and take them out of context in order to make someone look bad without getting sued (see Shirley Sherrod). She probably just published it to advertise her book, and it's working damned well.
On January 20 2011 08:09 MrBob wrote: Chua obviously consented to it being published. You can't just publish portions of people's speeches/works and take them out of context in order to make someone look bad without getting sued (see Shirley Sherrod). She probably just published it to advertise her book, and it's working damned well.
On January 20 2011 08:06 Lefnui wrote: Again, as I tried to explain to you, if it misrepresents her views then it's her own fault.
Fine, let's assume that is true. It's completely irrelevant, because this is your stated position:
There's no reason to assume that she misspoke or misrepresented her own views. She wrote an entire article on the subject, how is that not enough to judge?
Of course it would help to read the entire book, but it's not necessary to make a judgement.
In fact, there is every reason to think the excerpt, whether deliberately or not, misrepresents her actual views as stated in the book. This is easily evidenced by, I don't know, actually reading the fucking book, or since you're the kind of person who doesn't have much use for book-lurnin', how about actually reading her own comments on the book and the article?
On January 20 2011 08:09 MrBob wrote: Chua obviously consented to it being published. You can't just publish portions of people's speeches/works and take them out of context in order to make someone look bad without getting sued (see Shirley Sherrod). She probably just published it to advertise her book, and it's working damned well.
Yes, obviously she consented to having her book excerpted, it was probably her idea. But judging from her subsequent comments, it doesn't seem like she knew it would be excerpted in such a fashion.
On January 20 2011 08:15 domovoi wrote: or since you're the kind of person who doesn't have much use for book-lurnin'
Clearly you're just 'flaming' me. I've attempted to explain a very simple concept to you a number of times now. It seems like it's beyond you, so I'm done.
On January 20 2011 08:15 domovoi wrote: or since you're the kind of person who doesn't have much use for book-lurnin'
Clearly you're just 'flaming' me. I've attempted to explain a very simple concept to you a number of times now. It seems like it's beyond you, so I'm done.
And I've attempted to explain that it's pretty stupid to think the article doesn't misrepresent her book and her views when she herself has stated it does, and such a claim is easily verified by actually reading the book. I simply do not understand why you continue to think the article doesn't misrepresent her views, except perhaps you're too embarrassed to admit you were wrong, a common trait amongst nitwits. But let me tell you, this amount of obstinacy simply does you no good when it's so easy to confirm the article does not, in fact, represent her book or her current views.
I read the book. It has a pretty different message than the article, in fact it's about how she used her "Chinese" mothering techniques to great success with her first child but failed with her second child. The book is even subtitled "how I was humbled by a 13 year old."
On January 09 2011 09:07 Half wrote: This Article is a joke. Do you think an Asian parent would have fostered Mark Zucklebergs odd interests in computers, before the dotcom boom of the 2000s? That an asian parent would have allowed Bill Gates to drop out of College? No they wouldn't have, and now there children call these men boss.
I fully agree with this.
I also agree 100% with this. My parents are Chinese so I have heard many horror stories but admittedly, I myself have been rather "lucky." I'm going to straight up say it now: hard work ain't shit. You spend hours and hours of your time working your ass off in High School, and for what? To get into a good college to study more alongside someone who parties all night and gets the same grade as you. Then what? You work for a boss alongside someone who also partied all night in a lesser college but has great social skills. I can't wait for Mrs. Chua's sequel that details how all her daughters work for people who have probably given a lot less of their life to get the same results. Saying that she raised "stereotypically successful kids" is a little premature.
And by the way, if any of you care, I have played piano since 3rd grade because that is the "cool" thing to make your kid do as a Chinese parent (although that is kind of harsh as I now continue to play out of my own free will and I don't even pay the cost for lessons), and it has literally done nothing for me college-wise. Your kid is probably going to learn more about real life at a party in college than playing music.
On January 09 2011 09:07 Half wrote: This Article is a joke. Do you think an Asian parent would have fostered Mark Zucklebergs odd interests in computers, before the dotcom boom of the 2000s? That an asian parent would have allowed Bill Gates to drop out of College? No they wouldn't have, and now there children call these men boss.
I fully agree with this.
I also agree 100% with this. My parents are Chinese so I have heard many horror stories but admittedly, I myself have been rather "lucky." I'm going to straight up say it now: hard work ain't shit. You spend hours and hours of your time working your ass off in High School, and for what? To get into a good college to study more alongside someone who parties all night and gets the same grade as you. Then what? You work for a boss alongside someone who also partied all night in a lesser college but has great social skills. I can't wait for Mrs. Chua's sequel that details how all her daughters work for people who have probably given a lot less of their life to get the same results. Saying that she raised "stereotypically successful kids" is a little premature.
And by the way, if any of you care, I have played piano since 3rd grade because that is the "cool" thing to make your kid do as a Chinese parent (although that is kind of harsh as I now continue to play out of my own free will and I don't even pay the cost for lessons), and it has literally done nothing for me college-wise. Your kid is probably going to learn more about real life at a party in college than playing music.
It's true, you know how many future contacts I've made through partying? I'm in with several fraternities, I might as well be in each one instead of a GDI.
I think the value of a full, fun, life is far superior to being highly successful, stuck in a miserable job (job you hate).
Sure I'd be happy to have an income of 300,000+/year, living in a 3 story mansion, with maids/gardeners chefs, the works. But I sure as hell wouldn't have time to enjoy it if I'm constantly on call, at the office, etc. Plus, I'd miss out on my kids lives. Where's the fun in that?
On January 20 2011 08:31 Hot_Bid wrote: I read the book. It has a pretty different message than the article, in fact it's about how she used her "Chinese" mothering techniques to great success with her first child but failed with her second child. The book is even subtitled "how I was humbled by a 13 year old."
Yeah I realized that the WSJ article was just an elaborate troll to draw attention to the book. Looks like it was super effective.
someone let me know if my understanding of this situation is correct
1. woman writes parenting book 2. writes a poorly thought out article in WSJ that makes her book seem like it runs counter to everything developmental psychologists have discovered since the 1970s 3. internet erupts because the one thing you can do to guarantee you piss someone off is "insult" their parenting.
I'm Chinese. Raised in North America with old-fashioned teachings. I experienced all of those things mentioned in the article (and more) throughout my childhood. But I'm 24 now.
I can confidently tell you that as an adult, Chinese mothers are not automatically superior for doing these things. Granted, I do feel that western mothers are often too slack and do not set proper boundaries for their children, but I have met my share of stern yet respectable western parents as well.
Amy Chua, and the Chinese parents that she idolizes (of which I am well acquainted with) represents an old fashioned breed too ignorant to distinguish what is necessary to curb poor behavior and promote good ones. Some ideals such as establishing academics and competitiveness is helpful. It cements a foundation for success and fortune later on, and as academics is a large part of social acceptance amongst other Asians, this is as important as wearing the same clothes or makeup to fit in.
Unfortunately, other things, particularly mandatory music, is bewildering at best. Asian parents DONT want their child to pursue musical interests/careers beyond childhood. Yet they force their child to play 3 hours a day everyday for 7-10 years. What? Then they ask blindly why their child turns out the way they did. Or that they deny television or computer games. Exposure to television leads to cultural and social adaptiveness. As much as Chinese parents dislike the brutish environment depicted in TV, it is integral to fitting in, and developing social awareness. Why is it that Asian kids are always so introverted? Why is it that Asians don't develop that same level of business-gaining charismatic aura westerners do? Denying a child video games will inevitably hurt their potential of being electronically-savvy. That wouldn't have been such a big deal 30 years ago, but now, that is horribly outdated. Children raised with this mindset now will be tremendously set behind in working environments. Video games not only train reflexes (keep in mind that this child isn't getting sports into his regime either), but also quick learning, 3D mapping awareness and communication with a team.
It's horrible, backwards thinking like this that I find are the biggest weakness with the Chinese. They tried a method from before, and it worked decently well, so they repeat it again, matching every inch. But they never go back and look at where they didn't do so well, or where they need to improve. Sure, the Chinese are good at raising academically-superior children. That is very important, but if that's all they're ever going to aim for, it's not enough. Cut back on the stupid stuff: music; no games; no sports; no anything other than books. Instead, get some social-adequacy in there so you don't look like an unpresentable geek. For those who don't understand... It's like if you're raised to be really good at micro, but no one in your heritage ever considers to alter the training to include some macro as well. >_>
Anyway, if you're a Chinese kid, and dealing with this stuff still, well... Tough it out. Your parents aren't completely right, but they're not completely wrong either. You're never going to be able to change them or make them think differently, so just think and make decisions that will better shape yourself.
On January 20 2011 09:10 red_b wrote: someone let me know if my understanding of this situation is correct
1. woman writes parenting book 2. writes a poorly thought out article in WSJ that makes her book seem like it runs counter to everything developmental psychologists have discovered since the 1970s 3. internet erupts because the one thing you can do to guarantee you piss someone off is "insult" their parenting.
that about right?
Someone was wrong on the Internet and had to be corrected FOR THE SAKE OF THE INTERNET
Cut back on the stupid stuff: music; no games; no sports; no anything other than books. Instead, get some social-adequacy in there so you don't look like an unpresentable geek.
I feel sorry for you. Most Asians play a ton of games, and play a ton of sports, all with parental approval. Also, it makes no sense to say parents should focus on having their kids play sports but not having them play music. They should do both, and most do; after all, most Asian parents realize sports and music are excellent extracurriculars to put on that college application. I mean, my mom forced me to pick a school sport to participate in, even though I hated sports.
Seriously, this idea that Asian kids only do homework and practice piano all day is bollocks. Yes, our parents are strict, and there's a lot of bullshit we're forced to do, but your inability to socialize has little to do with your parents. After all, proper Asian parents send their kids to Chinese (or whatever language) school, which is pretty much entirely socializing, because you certainly don't learn anything there. I'd say the inability to socialize comes from playing too many computer games instead of going out.
You're taking what I said to the opposite extreme, which is not a stance I endorsed in my post. Also, your experience and perception of Asian parents differ from mine. I'm glad your parents were open to other fields as well, but in my experience, it is rare to come across. When I read the article, I disagreed with Amy, but her depiction of typical Asian parenting wasn't that far off to me.
As for Chinese school (learning Mandarin, and mathematics for something 4 grades ahead), I had friends there as well. And as much as we liked socializing and having fun, we were heavily scolded for not focusing on academics just the same. So in that way, the experience really wasn't any different than attending normal school, save for that fact that you could relate to your classmates on how your parents are like.
On January 20 2011 10:56 Cent wrote: I'm glad your parents were open to other fields as well, but in my experience, it is rare to come across.
I went to a high school that was 1/3 Asian and an undergraduate college that was likewise 1/3 Asian. By Asian standards, I was kind of a slacker due to my lack of extracurriculars. Almost every Asian I met participated in some sport in High School (usually tennis, badminton, and track & field) and school leadership (our Key Club, which I was not a member of, was 97% Asian). Almost every Asian guy I meet played a shitton of video games as a kid. So I felt Chua's description was thematically correct (strict, demanding parents), but somewhat wrong in the details.
By the time I got to college, it was very easy to socialize amongst the *SA's (TSA, KSA, HKSA, CSA, pick your poison). Clubbing, drinking, socials, poker parties, LAN parties, pick-up games of basketball, you name it. Of course, there's still pressure (from parents and self) to do well, so this wasn't constant hedonism by any means.
Haha, I remember glancing at this article when my WSJ came in the mail two Saturdays ago. My first reaction was just to ignore it and convince myself it's another reason why I should unsubscribe to the WSJ. Then I read it after noticing it's been still the most viewed even now, compared to the counter-argument "In Defense of a Western Mother".
I also read the comments posted on the WSJ and I have to agree with the statement: While Eastern parenting may raise intelligent kids, they're more of the copycat type, not the innovative type. Or something to that extent.
That being said, I'm Asian and I hang around a lot of Asians. A lot of us rebelled against this strict type of parenting and we turned out just fine. However, I know some of them that conformed to this "Eastern" parenting. One girl I know wasn't allowed to have sleepovers, forced to play the piano that she didn't enjoy and her parents shunned her for doing art instead of a more useful subject.
I personally believe in negative reinforcement, but not to the extent this writer has. Then again, I'm not even close to being a father so I don't have any results. It seems like this article was written just to grab attention, I'm not sure. It's working though. The debate is still going on in the website and has even been discussed here.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/yWyJR.jpg)
(ei. Chinese animation studios copy/pasting Japanese anime, Chinese tech companies are notorious for stealing Western software etc..) ![[image loading]](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-EMpadQx4hM/TR0vXpkUahI/AAAAAAAAAZI/xPzTJT8u70w/s1600/hours.png)
