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On January 10 2011 08:20 Half wrote:Show nested quote +Basically you can't teach somebody that doesn't want to learn, and kids don't want to learn unless they're pushed to do it (with the exception of a moderately sized minority). The motivation HAS to stem from the parents, since these kids won't generate it themselves. But western parents haven't been stepping up to the plate, and their kids suffer as a result. Haha lolwut? Most extremely successful men and women were self motivated as Children, (Bill Gates and Zuckleberg would be good examples), and they became self motivated because they grew up in families that valued and encouraged personal development and intelligence. Those public school kids flunk out because they grow up in lower income families where intellect and personal academic development are simply not environmentally valued.
I don't often like to dish out snide remarks, but you obviously didn't read what I said. Notice where I said "with the exception of a moderately sized minority"? Yeah, that was referring to the Bill Gates and Zuckelberg *sic* types. Obviously the American teaching system has failed once again, as reading comprehension doesn't appear to be your strong point.
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Cool read.
Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top.
Sources:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/07/us-falls-in-world-education-rankings_n_793185.html
http://www.articlebliss.com/Art/564805/286/China-Global-Education-Ranking-Has-Surpassed-the-United-States.html
While this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions. I think one of the biggest take home messages is the different ways China and America view hard work:
For many things, Americans think "you either have it or you don't", while Chinese people think "anyone can have it if they work hard". A good example is math. You hear Americans use phrases like "He's a mathwhiz" or "She's a natural". This is bad for motivation because people who aren't "mathwhizzes" are discouraged and don't want to practice math because they weren't born with math skill. It even ends up being bad for the "mathwhizzes", because when they reach a point where math is difficult, they get frustrated and discouraged, because they aren't used to having to practice to do well in math. The Chinese attitude is much better for everyone's motivation. Even the worst kid in the class is motivated to practice because he believes that if practices enough, he can be the best. And this is basically true, and is probably a big contributor to the fact that by 5th grade, the top performing American classroom is being outperformed by the bottom performing Chinese classroom in math.
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On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote:Cool read. Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top. Sources: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/07/us-falls-in-world-education-rankings_n_793185.htmlhttp://www.articlebliss.com/Art/564805/286/China-Global-Education-Ranking-Has-Surpassed-the-United-States.htmlWhile this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions. I think one of the biggest take home messages is the different ways China and America view hard work: For many things, Americans think "you either have it or you don't", while Chinese people think "anyone can have it if they work hard". A good example is math. You hear Americans use phrases like "He's a mathwhiz" or "She's a natural". This is bad for motivation because people who aren't "mathwhizzes" are discouraged and don't want to practice math because they weren't born with math skill. It even ends up being bad for the "mathwhizzes", because when they reach a point where math is difficult, they get frustrated and discouraged, because they aren't used to having to practice to do well in math. The Chinese attitude is much better for everyone's motivation. Even the worst kid in the class is motivated to practice because he believes that if practices enough, he can be the best. And this is basically true, and is probably a big contributor to the fact that by 5th grade, the top performing American classroom is being outperformed by the bottom performing Chinese classroom in math.
+1,000,000 for this post
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On January 10 2011 08:24 MforWW wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote:Cool read. Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top. Sources: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/07/us-falls-in-world-education-rankings_n_793185.htmlhttp://www.articlebliss.com/Art/564805/286/China-Global-Education-Ranking-Has-Surpassed-the-United-States.htmlWhile this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions. I think one of the biggest take home messages is the different ways China and America view hard work: For many things, Americans think "you either have it or you don't", while Chinese people think "anyone can have it if they work hard". A good example is math. You hear Americans use phrases like "He's a mathwhiz" or "She's a natural". This is bad for motivation because people who aren't "mathwhizzes" are discouraged and don't want to practice math because they weren't born with math skill. It even ends up being bad for the "mathwhizzes", because when they reach a point where math is difficult, they get frustrated and discouraged, because they aren't used to having to practice to do well in math. The Chinese attitude is much better for everyone's motivation. Even the worst kid in the class is motivated to practice because he believes that if practices enough, he can be the best. And this is basically true, and is probably a big contributor to the fact that by 5th grade, the top performing American classroom is being outperformed by the bottom performing Chinese classroom in math. +1,000,000 for this post
 Thanks
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On January 10 2011 08:22 MforWW wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 08:20 Half wrote:Basically you can't teach somebody that doesn't want to learn, and kids don't want to learn unless they're pushed to do it (with the exception of a moderately sized minority). The motivation HAS to stem from the parents, since these kids won't generate it themselves. But western parents haven't been stepping up to the plate, and their kids suffer as a result. Haha lolwut? Most extremely successful men and women were self motivated as Children, (Bill Gates and Zuckleberg would be good examples), and they became self motivated because they grew up in families that valued and encouraged personal development and intelligence. Those public school kids flunk out because they grow up in lower income families where intellect and personal academic development are simply not environmentally valued. I don't often like to dish out snide remarks, but you obviously didn't read what I said. Notice where I said "with the exception of a moderately sized minority"? Yeah, that was referring to the Bill Gates and Zuckelberg *sic* types. Obviously the American teaching system has failed once again, as reading comprehension doesn't appear to be your strong point.
You act like these minorities are from the same demographic as the kids who fail in highschool. Your simply comparing income classes.
Kids who can be internally motivated aren't "special". They're the natural result of a health parental environment.
Kids emulate there parents, they draw confidence from there parents, there goals are what the parent values. The Reason why Asian kids need so much force to get them to do anything, and why they aren't internally motivated is because most of there parents are hollow with very few interests other then the success of there kids. Do you think a Mother who is adept at the Piano and is genuinely interest in music, or a dad who loves literature and discusses it with there kids would need to excessive force to coerce there kids into having similar academic interests? No, they don't.
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On January 10 2011 08:26 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 08:22 MforWW wrote:On January 10 2011 08:20 Half wrote:Basically you can't teach somebody that doesn't want to learn, and kids don't want to learn unless they're pushed to do it (with the exception of a moderately sized minority). The motivation HAS to stem from the parents, since these kids won't generate it themselves. But western parents haven't been stepping up to the plate, and their kids suffer as a result. Haha lolwut? Most extremely successful men and women were self motivated as Children, (Bill Gates and Zuckleberg would be good examples), and they became self motivated because they grew up in families that valued and encouraged personal development and intelligence. Those public school kids flunk out because they grow up in lower income families where intellect and personal academic development are simply not environmentally valued. I don't often like to dish out snide remarks, but you obviously didn't read what I said. Notice where I said "with the exception of a moderately sized minority"? Yeah, that was referring to the Bill Gates and Zuckelberg *sic* types. Obviously the American teaching system has failed once again, as reading comprehension doesn't appear to be your strong point. Kids who can be internally motivated aren't "special". There the natural result of a health parental environment. Kids emulate there parents, they draw confidence from there parents, there goals are what the parent values. The Reason why Asian kids need so much force to get them to do anything, and why they aren't internally motivated is because most of there parents are hollow with very few interests other then the success of there kids. Do you think a Mother who is adept at the Piano and is genuinely interest in music, or a dad who loves literature and discusses it with there kids would need to excessive force to coerce there kids into having similar academic interests? No, they don't.
[citation needed]
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On January 10 2011 08:30 Cambam wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 08:26 Half wrote:On January 10 2011 08:22 MforWW wrote:On January 10 2011 08:20 Half wrote:Basically you can't teach somebody that doesn't want to learn, and kids don't want to learn unless they're pushed to do it (with the exception of a moderately sized minority). The motivation HAS to stem from the parents, since these kids won't generate it themselves. But western parents haven't been stepping up to the plate, and their kids suffer as a result. Haha lolwut? Most extremely successful men and women were self motivated as Children, (Bill Gates and Zuckleberg would be good examples), and they became self motivated because they grew up in families that valued and encouraged personal development and intelligence. Those public school kids flunk out because they grow up in lower income families where intellect and personal academic development are simply not environmentally valued. I don't often like to dish out snide remarks, but you obviously didn't read what I said. Notice where I said "with the exception of a moderately sized minority"? Yeah, that was referring to the Bill Gates and Zuckelberg *sic* types. Obviously the American teaching system has failed once again, as reading comprehension doesn't appear to be your strong point. Kids who can be internally motivated aren't "special". There the natural result of a health parental environment. Kids emulate there parents, they draw confidence from there parents, there goals are what the parent values. The Reason why Asian kids need so much force to get them to do anything, and why they aren't internally motivated is because most of there parents are hollow with very few interests other then the success of there kids. Do you think a Mother who is adept at the Piano and is genuinely interest in music, or a dad who loves literature and discusses it with there kids would need to excessive force to coerce there kids into having similar academic interests? No, they don't. [citation needed]
http://tinyurl.com/28844zj
You know what I would like a Citation for? A single Psychological studying promoting the kind of parenting in the OP.
But I guess Psychology isn't a real science and is just a bunch of western garbage amirite (A common belief among Asians)
The reason why Western parenting gets a bad rep is because so many people are so horribly inept at it. As opposed to Chinese parenting, which really requires nothing more then making love a conditional reward for performance.
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On January 10 2011 08:26 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 08:22 MforWW wrote:On January 10 2011 08:20 Half wrote:Basically you can't teach somebody that doesn't want to learn, and kids don't want to learn unless they're pushed to do it (with the exception of a moderately sized minority). The motivation HAS to stem from the parents, since these kids won't generate it themselves. But western parents haven't been stepping up to the plate, and their kids suffer as a result. Haha lolwut? Most extremely successful men and women were self motivated as Children, (Bill Gates and Zuckleberg would be good examples), and they became self motivated because they grew up in families that valued and encouraged personal development and intelligence. Those public school kids flunk out because they grow up in lower income families where intellect and personal academic development are simply not environmentally valued. I don't often like to dish out snide remarks, but you obviously didn't read what I said. Notice where I said "with the exception of a moderately sized minority"? Yeah, that was referring to the Bill Gates and Zuckelberg *sic* types. Obviously the American teaching system has failed once again, as reading comprehension doesn't appear to be your strong point. Notice how I quote a very select portion of your post rather then the entire thing? You act like these minorities are from the same demographic as the kids who fail in highschool. Your simply comparing income classes. Kids who can be internally motivated aren't "special". There the natural result of a health parental environment. Kids emulate there parents, they draw confidence from there parents, there goals are what the parent values. The Reason why Asian kids need so much force to get them to do anything, and why they aren't internally motivated is because most of there parents are hollow with very few interests other then the success of there kids. Do you think a Mother who is adept at the Piano and is genuinely interest in music, or a dad who loves literature and discusses it with there kids would need to excessive force to coerce there kids into having similar academic interests? No, they don't.
I would say that yes kids to emulate their parents...but I wouldn't go as far as saying that kids would be better if the parents were smart, good at literature, etc.
Back in high school I was good friends with some of the teachers. One thing that they all complained about was connection between the troubling kids and the parents.
Now the teachers I was friends with were AP and honor teachers, and our school was not bad or ghetto.
The connection was that the parents (snobby above-average wealth type, but nonethless intelligent people) would "refuse" to believe that their kids (probably thought the kid was superior than everyone else) was doing so bad in class academically. The parents bitched and complained forcing the teachers (to not lose job and by orders of the incompetent administrators) to conform and making the kid pass with unworthy grades (xtra credit, etc.).
The problem comes from kids abusing the broken education system by taking advantage of the parents and coercing the teachers.
THAT is why I don't wanna be a teacher.
THAT is why people complain about the system.
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On January 10 2011 08:21 Hynda wrote:
What I don't get is why people always measures worth in how much money you make. I would hate to have been treated like the children of that article, that doesn't mean my parents didn't have rules. Infact I wasn't allowed to drink/smoke untill I turned 18 and when I broke the drinking promise I wasn't allowed into the house for 2 days. (I did find out later that my dad followed me around on his motorcycle to see that I didn't do anything stupid, but I learnt my lesson sure as hell).
Isn't the mark of succses doing what YOU love making a living out of that? My mother doesn't make millions every year, but she makes more than enough and she sometimes can not wait to get to work, that she rushes out of bed long before her work day begins just to get something done. Isn't that really what being succsesful is all about?
Her boyfriend runs a company with buisnesses in 4 countrys and he spends his days stressed out as all hell, I wouldn't call him more succsesful than my mom, even if he gets a much higher salary, because I've seen how stressed he is.
So what I don't get if you force your kids into these kinds of things, how are they supposed to find that thing that they love doing?
I think thats what its about. "Western cultures focus on doing things that you like, while "Chinese" cultures focus on more "productive" things. I couldn't find a better word that productive. The management program at my school is like 1% white people, if that. On the other hand, courses like womens studies or like art history has like 1 chinese kid in it max, if you're lucky. Basically when chinese parents have a kid, they're thinking lawyer, doctor, business man, accountant, engineer.
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On January 10 2011 08:24 MforWW wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote:Cool read. Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top. Sources: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/07/us-falls-in-world-education-rankings_n_793185.htmlhttp://www.articlebliss.com/Art/564805/286/China-Global-Education-Ranking-Has-Surpassed-the-United-States.htmlWhile this article is anecdotal and we can't be sure which parental tactics led to successful children and which were neutral or harmful, it's still very interesting and should make you question your cultural assumptions. I think one of the biggest take home messages is the different ways China and America view hard work: For many things, Americans think "you either have it or you don't", while Chinese people think "anyone can have it if they work hard". A good example is math. You hear Americans use phrases like "He's a mathwhiz" or "She's a natural". This is bad for motivation because people who aren't "mathwhizzes" are discouraged and don't want to practice math because they weren't born with math skill. It even ends up being bad for the "mathwhizzes", because when they reach a point where math is difficult, they get frustrated and discouraged, because they aren't used to having to practice to do well in math. The Chinese attitude is much better for everyone's motivation. Even the worst kid in the class is motivated to practice because he believes that if practices enough, he can be the best. And this is basically true, and is probably a big contributor to the fact that by 5th grade, the top performing American classroom is being outperformed by the bottom performing Chinese classroom in math. +1,000,000 for this post
There's a psycho bitch terrorizing and traumatizing her kids, and saying it's the best parenting method, and we're all close-minded for being put off.
If you want to instill proper work ethic into a kid, there are far better ways to do it than through fear and coercion. Such a method would only work on a percentage (and probably not a large one) of kids. Many others would crack or completely break down once they are no longer under the influence of such a parent.
A lot of Chinese parents are like the woman who wrote the article, and it's just wrong, pure and simple. These parents who practice terror and coercion dogmatically are the true close-minded ones. Different kids require different parenting methods. If you don't have enough empathy to understand this, I'm not sure whether to feel sorry or contempt for you.
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lol, are people seriously considering defending this article? I mean, I can supply studies on why her 'education' or her children isn't a good idea, but I would've hoped anyone with the remotest amount of sense could figure that out by reading the article.
This isn't about lax vs. authoritative parenting either. It's been shown that authoritative parenting correlates with high self esteem in kids, I'm not bashing on stricter ways of parenting in general, but what this woman's doing can't be called parenting.
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On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote:
Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top.
So, did you read even just a little bit of the thread at all with all the Chinese posters (such as myself) who were raised Chinese chiming in about how awful it is and listing specific reasons before hurrying to type another pretentious accusation of cultural bias and join the article's author in claiming educational superiority?
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Woot! Go Chinese ^_______^
haters gonna hate
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thing is chinese parents dont want their kids dealing with stress and having no life when they grow up. its better to have this as a kid as u dont think as much and more easily happy, thus u learn more at a faster pace. As u develop these skills u dont regret all that hardwork and are ahead in classes. Conclusion: earlier motivational success = better future for children.
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On January 10 2011 09:10 Hamster wrote:
thing is chinese parents dont want their kids dealing with stress and having no life when they grow up. its better to have this as a kid as u dont think as much and more easily happy, thus u learn more at a faster pace. As u develop these skills u dont regret all that hardwork and are ahead in classes. Conclusion: earlier motivational success = better future for children.
Yeah and what skills will the child develop? The ability to produce good grades with someone forcing and hollering at them every step of the way. And what happens when the parent is no longer there? The child is not self motivated and with no one pointing a gun to his head anymore, do you think he'll continue to work his ass off for something he never wanted in the first place??
Yeah motivation and hard work is good. But the "parenting" method of those "hardcore" parents instill the opposite of motivation in their children.
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On January 10 2011 09:01 Krigwin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote:
Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top. So, did you read even just a little bit of the thread at all with all the Chinese posters (such as myself) who were raised Chinese chiming in about how awful it is and listing specific reasons before hurrying to type another pretentious accusation of cultural bias and join the article's author in claiming educational superiority?
99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes, parroting American cultural norms without citing any sources. To be honest, I'm not too familiar with the scientific research on this subject, but I can at least see that China is getting results and America isn't.
You have to drop your assumptions in this thread. You can't just say "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." This is a useless sentence that doesn't add anything to the discussion. This is how you should do it:
"using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong."
Reputable* Source A: www...
Reputable* Source B: www...
*Reputable meaning a peer-reviewed scientific journal or a .gov site, not Oprah.com or AmericanParentingIsTheBest.com
This is much more constructive and stimulating to the discussion. Telling us all about how your friend is Asian and he is not successful is not.
On January 10 2011 09:06 CheekyDuck wrote:
Woot! Go Chinese ^_______^
haters gonna hate
Lol, so true.
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And to all these people claiming that Asians will lose all motivation as soon as their mommies aren't around, why don't we see a huge dropoff in the number of successful Asians between High School and College? This would be the easiest and most obvious way to confirm that hypothesis, yet we don't see this predicted dropoff.
The motivation obviously becomes intrinsic at some point, probably because the student does well because of his hard work and is praised for it and thus is motivated to work hard in the future (as is discussed in the original article).
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On January 10 2011 09:14 MrBob wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 09:10 Hamster wrote:
thing is chinese parents dont want their kids dealing with stress and having no life when they grow up. its better to have this as a kid as u dont think as much and more easily happy, thus u learn more at a faster pace. As u develop these skills u dont regret all that hardwork and are ahead in classes. Conclusion: earlier motivational success = better future for children. Yeah and what skills will the child develop? The ability to produce good grades with someone forcing and hollering at them every step of the way. And what happens when the parent is no longer there? The child is not self motivated and with no one pointing a gun to his head anymore, do you think he'll continue to work his ass off for something he never wanted in the first place?? Yeah motivation and hard work is good. But the "parenting" method of those "hardcore" parents instill the opposite of motivation in their children.
yes, the ability to get good grades and go to uni. chinese parents will punish if the kid has not a motivational of his own will after all the lectures they give their children.although it does instill the opposite motivation of children, the ability to suceed is still far greater than to fail. I dont disagree these parenting methods are wrong but that parents should not choose the future of their children (medicine, dentistry, accountant) and i think that chinese parents should encourage positive motivation in the child's interests and talents.
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On January 10 2011 09:23 Cambam wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 09:01 Krigwin wrote:On January 10 2011 08:23 Cambam wrote:
Just wanted to let all you American posters that are appalled by this article that you're being a little close-minded. It sounds horrible to you simply because you've been raised in a culture that says it's horrible. I know it's hard, but try to step outside your cultural upbringing and be open-minded about different parenting models. Especially when America is rated "average" when it comes to education and China is near the top. So, did you read even just a little bit of the thread at all with all the Chinese posters (such as myself) who were raised Chinese chiming in about how awful it is and listing specific reasons before hurrying to type another pretentious accusation of cultural bias and join the article's author in claiming educational superiority? 99% of posts in this thread are anecdotal and/or unsubstantiated claims from people up on their soapboxes, parroting American cultural norms without citing any sources. To be honest, I'm not too familiar with the scientific research on this subject, but I can at least see that China is getting results and America isn't. You have to drop your assumptions in this thread. You can't just say "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." This is a useless sentence that doesn't add anything to the discussion. This is how you should do it: "using fear and bullying as a parenting style is just plain wrong." Reputable* Source A: www... Reputable* Source B: www... *Reputable meaning a peer-reviewed scientific journal or a .gov site, not Oprah.com or AmericanParentingIsTheBest.com This is much more constructive and stimulating to the discussion. Telling us all about how your friend is Asian and he is not successful is not.
You do realize the very article you're defending is entirely anecdotal and cites precisely zero sources for any of its claims?
I am very amused however that you call Chinese posters who were raised Chinese talking about the flaws of Chinese parenting as "parroting American cultural norms".
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EPT
