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On January 20 2011 08:19 Lefnui wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 08:15 domovoi wrote:
or since you're the kind of person who doesn't have much use for book-lurnin' Clearly you're just 'flaming' me. I've attempted to explain a very simple concept to you a number of times now. It seems like it's beyond you, so I'm done.
And I've attempted to explain that it's pretty stupid to think the article doesn't misrepresent her book and her views when she herself has stated it does, and such a claim is easily verified by actually reading the book. I simply do not understand why you continue to think the article doesn't misrepresent her views, except perhaps you're too embarrassed to admit you were wrong, a common trait amongst nitwits. But let me tell you, this amount of obstinacy simply does you no good when it's so easy to confirm the article does not, in fact, represent her book or her current views.
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Braavos36402 Posts
I read the book. It has a pretty different message than the article, in fact it's about how she used her "Chinese" mothering techniques to great success with her first child but failed with her second child. The book is even subtitled "how I was humbled by a 13 year old."
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On January 20 2011 07:39 craz3d wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 09:07 Half wrote:
This Article is a joke. Do you think an Asian parent would have fostered Mark Zucklebergs odd interests in computers, before the dotcom boom of the 2000s? That an asian parent would have allowed Bill Gates to drop out of College? No they wouldn't have, and now there children call these men boss. I fully agree with this.
I also agree 100% with this. My parents are Chinese so I have heard many horror stories but admittedly, I myself have been rather "lucky." I'm going to straight up say it now: hard work ain't shit. You spend hours and hours of your time working your ass off in High School, and for what? To get into a good college to study more alongside someone who parties all night and gets the same grade as you. Then what? You work for a boss alongside someone who also partied all night in a lesser college but has great social skills. I can't wait for Mrs. Chua's sequel that details how all her daughters work for people who have probably given a lot less of their life to get the same results. Saying that she raised "stereotypically successful kids" is a little premature.
And by the way, if any of you care, I have played piano since 3rd grade because that is the "cool" thing to make your kid do as a Chinese parent (although that is kind of harsh as I now continue to play out of my own free will and I don't even pay the cost for lessons), and it has literally done nothing for me college-wise. Your kid is probably going to learn more about real life at a party in college than playing music.
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On January 20 2011 08:44 vindKtiv wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 07:39 craz3d wrote:On January 09 2011 09:07 Half wrote:
This Article is a joke. Do you think an Asian parent would have fostered Mark Zucklebergs odd interests in computers, before the dotcom boom of the 2000s? That an asian parent would have allowed Bill Gates to drop out of College? No they wouldn't have, and now there children call these men boss. I fully agree with this. I also agree 100% with this. My parents are Chinese so I have heard many horror stories but admittedly, I myself have been rather "lucky." I'm going to straight up say it now: hard work ain't shit. You spend hours and hours of your time working your ass off in High School, and for what? To get into a good college to study more alongside someone who parties all night and gets the same grade as you. Then what? You work for a boss alongside someone who also partied all night in a lesser college but has great social skills. I can't wait for Mrs. Chua's sequel that details how all her daughters work for people who have probably given a lot less of their life to get the same results. Saying that she raised "stereotypically successful kids" is a little premature. And by the way, if any of you care, I have played piano since 3rd grade because that is the "cool" thing to make your kid do as a Chinese parent (although that is kind of harsh as I now continue to play out of my own free will and I don't even pay the cost for lessons), and it has literally done nothing for me college-wise. Your kid is probably going to learn more about real life at a party in college than playing music.
It's true, you know how many future contacts I've made through partying? I'm in with several fraternities, I might as well be in each one instead of a GDI.
I think the value of a full, fun, life is far superior to being highly successful, stuck in a miserable job (job you hate).
Sure I'd be happy to have an income of 300,000+/year, living in a 3 story mansion, with maids/gardeners chefs, the works. But I sure as hell wouldn't have time to enjoy it if I'm constantly on call, at the office, etc. Plus, I'd miss out on my kids lives. Where's the fun in that?
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On January 20 2011 08:31 Hot_Bid wrote:
I read the book. It has a pretty different message than the article, in fact it's about how she used her "Chinese" mothering techniques to great success with her first child but failed with her second child. The book is even subtitled "how I was humbled by a 13 year old."
Yeah I realized that the WSJ article was just an elaborate troll to draw attention to the book. Looks like it was super effective.
Now I'm kind of interested in the book though :<
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someone let me know if my understanding of this situation is correct
1. woman writes parenting book
2. writes a poorly thought out article in WSJ that makes her book seem like it runs counter to everything developmental psychologists have discovered since the 1970s
3. internet erupts because the one thing you can do to guarantee you piss someone off is "insult" their parenting.
that about right?
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I'm Chinese. Raised in North America with old-fashioned teachings. I experienced all of those things mentioned in the article (and more) throughout my childhood. But I'm 24 now.
I can confidently tell you that as an adult, Chinese mothers are not automatically superior for doing these things. Granted, I do feel that western mothers are often too slack and do not set proper boundaries for their children, but I have met my share of stern yet respectable western parents as well.
Amy Chua, and the Chinese parents that she idolizes (of which I am well acquainted with) represents an old fashioned breed too ignorant to distinguish what is necessary to curb poor behavior and promote good ones. Some ideals such as establishing academics and competitiveness is helpful. It cements a foundation for success and fortune later on, and as academics is a large part of social acceptance amongst other Asians, this is as important as wearing the same clothes or makeup to fit in.
Unfortunately, other things, particularly mandatory music, is bewildering at best. Asian parents DONT want their child to pursue musical interests/careers beyond childhood. Yet they force their child to play 3 hours a day everyday for 7-10 years. What? Then they ask blindly why their child turns out the way they did. Or that they deny television or computer games. Exposure to television leads to cultural and social adaptiveness. As much as Chinese parents dislike the brutish environment depicted in TV, it is integral to fitting in, and developing social awareness. Why is it that Asian kids are always so introverted? Why is it that Asians don't develop that same level of business-gaining charismatic aura westerners do? Denying a child video games will inevitably hurt their potential of being electronically-savvy. That wouldn't have been such a big deal 30 years ago, but now, that is horribly outdated. Children raised with this mindset now will be tremendously set behind in working environments. Video games not only train reflexes (keep in mind that this child isn't getting sports into his regime either), but also quick learning, 3D mapping awareness and communication with a team.
It's horrible, backwards thinking like this that I find are the biggest weakness with the Chinese. They tried a method from before, and it worked decently well, so they repeat it again, matching every inch. But they never go back and look at where they didn't do so well, or where they need to improve. Sure, the Chinese are good at raising academically-superior children. That is very important, but if that's all they're ever going to aim for, it's not enough. Cut back on the stupid stuff: music; no games; no sports; no anything other than books. Instead, get some social-adequacy in there so you don't look like an unpresentable geek. For those who don't understand... It's like if you're raised to be really good at micro, but no one in your heritage ever considers to alter the training to include some macro as well. >_>
Anyway, if you're a Chinese kid, and dealing with this stuff still, well... Tough it out. Your parents aren't completely right, but they're not completely wrong either. You're never going to be able to change them or make them think differently, so just think and make decisions that will better shape yourself.
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On January 20 2011 09:10 red_b wrote:
someone let me know if my understanding of this situation is correct
1. woman writes parenting book
2. writes a poorly thought out article in WSJ that makes her book seem like it runs counter to everything developmental psychologists have discovered since the 1970s
3. internet erupts because the one thing you can do to guarantee you piss someone off is "insult" their parenting.
that about right?
Someone was wrong on the Internet and had to be corrected FOR THE SAKE OF THE INTERNET
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Cut back on the stupid stuff: music; no games; no sports; no anything other than books. Instead, get some social-adequacy in there so you don't look like an unpresentable geek.
I feel sorry for you. Most Asians play a ton of games, and play a ton of sports, all with parental approval. Also, it makes no sense to say parents should focus on having their kids play sports but not having them play music. They should do both, and most do; after all, most Asian parents realize sports and music are excellent extracurriculars to put on that college application. I mean, my mom forced me to pick a school sport to participate in, even though I hated sports.
Seriously, this idea that Asian kids only do homework and practice piano all day is bollocks. Yes, our parents are strict, and there's a lot of bullshit we're forced to do, but your inability to socialize has little to do with your parents. After all, proper Asian parents send their kids to Chinese (or whatever language) school, which is pretty much entirely socializing, because you certainly don't learn anything there. I'd say the inability to socialize comes from playing too many computer games instead of going out.
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You're taking what I said to the opposite extreme, which is not a stance I endorsed in my post.
Also, your experience and perception of Asian parents differ from mine. I'm glad your parents were open to other fields as well, but in my experience, it is rare to come across. When I read the article, I disagreed with Amy, but her depiction of typical Asian parenting wasn't that far off to me.
As for Chinese school (learning Mandarin, and mathematics for something 4 grades ahead), I had friends there as well. And as much as we liked socializing and having fun, we were heavily scolded for not focusing on academics just the same. So in that way, the experience really wasn't any different than attending normal school, save for that fact that you could relate to your classmates on how your parents are like.
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On January 20 2011 10:56 Cent wrote:
I'm glad your parents were open to other fields as well, but in my experience, it is rare to come across.
I went to a high school that was 1/3 Asian and an undergraduate college that was likewise 1/3 Asian. By Asian standards, I was kind of a slacker due to my lack of extracurriculars. Almost every Asian I met participated in some sport in High School (usually tennis, badminton, and track & field) and school leadership (our Key Club, which I was not a member of, was 97% Asian). Almost every Asian guy I meet played a shitton of video games as a kid. So I felt Chua's description was thematically correct (strict, demanding parents), but somewhat wrong in the details.
By the time I got to college, it was very easy to socialize amongst the *SA's (TSA, KSA, HKSA, CSA, pick your poison). Clubbing, drinking, socials, poker parties, LAN parties, pick-up games of basketball, you name it. Of course, there's still pressure (from parents and self) to do well, so this wasn't constant hedonism by any means.
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Haha, I remember glancing at this article when my WSJ came in the mail two Saturdays ago. My first reaction was just to ignore it and convince myself it's another reason why I should unsubscribe to the WSJ. Then I read it after noticing it's been still the most viewed even now, compared to the counter-argument "In Defense of a Western Mother".
I also read the comments posted on the WSJ and I have to agree with the statement: While Eastern parenting may raise intelligent kids, they're more of the copycat type, not the innovative type. Or something to that extent.
That being said, I'm Asian and I hang around a lot of Asians. A lot of us rebelled against this strict type of parenting and we turned out just fine. However, I know some of them that conformed to this "Eastern" parenting. One girl I know wasn't allowed to have sleepovers, forced to play the piano that she didn't enjoy and her parents shunned her for doing art instead of a more useful subject.
I personally believe in negative reinforcement, but not to the extent this writer has. Then again, I'm not even close to being a father so I don't have any results. It seems like this article was written just to grab attention, I'm not sure. It's working though. The debate is still going on in the website and has even been discussed here.
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thats how you produce an anxiety ridden 25 year old
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EPT
