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On January 09 2011 16:42 Hautamaki wrote:
The bottom line is this: western kids DO oftentimes need to be forced to do things they don't want to do more often such as finishing their math homework and eating their vegetables and getting their exercise etc. But Chinese kids also need to be given more time to have unsupervised play time and socialization opportunities so they can develop other real life skills that will just as important to their future success and happiness as what they learn in the classroom.
I agree wholeheartedly with your post in general, but especially with this last statement. The author makes a key mistake by implicitly assuming "success" is an objective measurement. As many in this thread have mentioned before, you can be happy having money or no money, it all depends on the individual goal/attitude towards life. A monk can be happy while owning absolutely nothing, while there are many stories in the media of rich people being absolutely miserable to the point of suicide.
From my experience at a top research/science based university in the U.S., Asians raised in this manner are usually make up the top echelons of virtually every science oriented career, since their ability to work long hours and memorize large amounts of info for exams is just astounding (not going further, they brought sleeping bags, toothbrushes etc to the library during finals not to loose their chairs). This allows them to do really well even if they don't have innovative or creative ideas. Likewise, they are really good at doing repetitive work at research laboratories. Technology companies of today require these kind of workers who are good at doing repetitive complex work to man every kind of laboratory possible.
Research is moving towards automation very quickly, and today computers do most of the work of analyzing data. Literally, you can begin your work on a number of weak hypothesis and just crunch raw data to select the most viable and so forth. In consequence, individual brilliance is becoming less relevant in the face of such powerful technologies. This is why people who are hard working and drilled to this kind of work day and day out are naturally more prevalent in these scenarios/jobs.
The problem with this education ethos is that most of the money is made by the upper corporate echelons of large companies who employ these researchers, and these people are usually business/economics majors who are good with social skills, have connections and have money. Most of the people I know in college who had this kind of education is really socially incompetent, never had any women, many friends etc. I am not hating on this, it is their choice/upbringing and to each his own, but these things are what teaches you social skills that are essential to business. This is why today for today, the majority of people educated as the article points out end up at data crunching/analyst positions, which have a relatively low ceiling compared to the upper corporate levels of leading companies.
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I like to think that I had somewhere halfway between a western parenthood and an eastern one. I think that (as a nice change), not only have they taught me things, but I too have taught them things about life, the nature of their actions, and so on. They raise me differently now, and as a result, I don't have to rely on lying to them or sneaking around behind their backs. It's a give and take scenario and both parties compromise. That's not to say we don't ever fight, but when we do, at least it's with reasoned argument and not with an 'I'M THE PARENT SO WHAT I SAY GOES BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT'S GOOD FOR YOU' kind of vibe.
And on that note, how could you? Nobody knows what the future holds, so I don't see why parents should be able to choose what paths their children take. Is it likely that children brought up in a traditional chinese home will have even the chance to become a professional sports-person, given that they aren't allowed to focus on sports so should they choose?
I know that parents only want what's best for their children, but like the article states about human nature, you won't like it until you're good at it. In the same way, you won't realise what you truly want to do until you've experienced it first-hand. Part of being a parent (I feel at least) is giving your kids the opportunity to take that chance, to make mistakes, and be there for them unconditionally. This, instead, suggests that you should threaten them with the ever-constant fear that if they didn't maintain an A+ average, they would be extradited from the family, tossed away like so much trash.
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Wow, as many say in the comments that this lady is narrow minded, so are most of you saying this, I guess with the assumption that the 'Western' or to contradict with the article 'American mothers' raise their child is way better/best (as some people cleary indicate).
I'm pretty sure neither is true, I'm not at the point yet but I don't plan on raising any child either way. Childern need guidance, learn about discipline, moral values etc. which say at least 50~70%(random numbers) of childern cannot develop on their own.
Crazy to read this article though, that's some way to be raised. Might I point out this is FAR from the worst way possible!
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Must be real nice to grow up in such a loving and pressure free environment.
"Not allowed to get a grade lower than A" WTF!!!
And if they do? What happens then? Must set yourself on fire and run off a cliff?
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On January 09 2011 20:06 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 15:40 ecaesar wrote:
I was raised exactly like OP. Letter for letter, did piano, got 98+ in high school, typical Asian upbringing.
From my own experience I would like to point out that the people in this thread saying that its inhumane, they are not looking at the whole picture. Sure you can have fun in high school and attend uni get a nice job and great life. I actually agree on that. However, the point of Chinese parents being so strict is that they are sacrificing a little of the childhood fun for better success for the majority of the child's life after they turn 18. Competition for top schools are getting higher and higher as the population is increasing, with opportunities to make 6 digit figures less and less unless you do come out of a top school. Chinese parents simply think far ahead, really far ahead.
As for me, I am doing second year at Princeton university. Not to brag but I think I turned out great compared to the people saying Asian kids turn to drugs and so.
Your university doesn't say anything about your happiness and quality of life. Besides, you are only one example; I'm betting your parents are wealthy and more westernized than most. A white child raised loosely in the same position would be likely to obtain similar results. The difference is, the asian child is more likely to drop out early due to the pressure, or commit suicide, or be socially inept and chronically unfulfilled. No offense, but making it into a top school isn't an accomplishment; the smart will always succeed regardless of where they got their degree, and pass the kids who got higher entry-level salary in exchange for not having a childhood. Academics are a measure of your time and rote memorization, not your aptitude, and they never will help you in the real world. I was accepted into one of the top schools in the country, and I dropped out, and it's a good thing I did. I've been broke, I've been rich. My parents don't care, and neither do I. I am pretty much equally happy in either situation. The money doesn't give me anything that I need. On the other hand, you have been instilled with values that make it impossible to be happy without money. If things go bad for you, or god forbid you decide to follow your own path, your parents will shun you. Not mine. I was raised on junk food and unconditional love, getting shit grades, and now I have everything I always wanted. I think your story is kind of sad, to be honest.
Not everyone has equal opportunities... like some Somalians...
some people only hire you if you were not a gentile... for high positions in the Fed Reserve, like chairman of the Fed has never been a gentile...
On January 09 2011 21:41 Luddite wrote:
wow she sounds like a monster. Also, according to wikipedia she was born in the US, so I don't know if I accept her as an authority on what Chinese mothers in general are like. It reads more like "why I'm a superior mother to the white mothers that I know".
i was thinking along the same lines that she was born in america...
Her name is rendered "蔡美儿" in wikipedia but it should be "蔡美兒"...
mainlander parents or something...? other chinese people aren't vile as she is
there's always people like Stephen Wolfram who enjoys the studying
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Wolfram
PhD in theoretical physics at 20
"At 13, he earned a scholarship to Eton College. At 14, he wrote his first book on particle physics. At 17, the scientific journal Nuclear Physics published a paper he'd written. At 18, he wrote a widely-acclaimed paper on heavy quark production."
http://www.nndb.com/people/325/000022259/
he wasn't forced into doing this either
also invented mathematica
and raised in a western family
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On January 09 2011 22:47 GWBushJr wrote:
Her name is rendered "蔡美儿" in wikipedia but it should be "蔡美兒"...
mainlander parents or something...? other chinese people aren't vile as she is
The first variation is in simplified Mandarin and that's used in China and Singapore. The second variation is in traditional Mandarin and that's used in Taiwan.
So if her parents are mainlanders, they should be using the first variation. And yes she is vile. More vile than a cesspit.
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On January 10 2011 00:00 Avaloch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 22:47 GWBushJr wrote:
Her name is rendered "蔡美儿" in wikipedia but it should be "蔡美兒"...
mainlander parents or something...? other chinese people aren't vile as she is The first variation is in simplified Mandarin and that's used in China and Singapore. The second variation is in traditional Mandarin and that's used in Taiwan. So if her parents are mainlanders, they should be using the first variation. And yes she is vile. More vile than a cesspit.
I wouldn't really call her 'vile', in many ways she is a successful parent, alternative she could have 2 drug addicted knocked up daughters or criminals.
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The main thing that disgusts me about this is that the mother obviously doesn't want her child to become successful because she wants it to have a good future, she does it because she herself wants to feel good about producing a successful member of society.
If she even, for the slightest bit, cared about the state of mind of that child, she would never ever use such extreme methods.
I really don't understand how it is even up for discussion that what she does to that child is pretty bad. I'm not saying that strict parenting is bad, but for gods sake, read that article, that's not strict parenting, that's... whatever it is, it's not good.
Not even to mention that there are other ways of raising your child to have certain values without doing all of this shit.
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On January 10 2011 00:00 Avaloch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 22:47 GWBushJr wrote:
Her name is rendered "蔡美儿" in wikipedia but it should be "蔡美兒"...
mainlander parents or something...? other chinese people aren't vile as she is The first variation is in simplified Mandarin and that's used in China and Singapore. The second variation is in traditional Mandarin and that's used in Taiwan. So if her parents are mainlanders, they should be using the first variation. And yes she is vile. More vile than a cesspit.
Have you ever anyone met who came from the SARS region? Not Macau, but that other city that the British occupied for 100 years. Those parents don't seem anything like what the article describes.
They don't speak in the "normal" language or "national" language...or write the same font either...
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This thread is endless and I'm going to admit that I did not read it all, yet I'm going to chime in with my opinion on the article regardless.
My father always took a more or less hands off approach to my upbringing and education, as he was brought up by parents who really let him do whatever he wanted. He focused on his own interests, and excelled in school despite a complete lack of parental intervention, I joke that my mother is the stereotypical Asian mother, despite being white, because of her insistence that I get straight A's, not only in high school, but now in university as well. However, she did not engage in any of the more questionable insulting and threatening described in the article. On the other hand, an asian friend of mine's mother is essentially the stereotype: forcing her to play hours of piano and violin a day, ensuring that she got no marks other than A's, making sure she had to hide her boyfriends from her parents (unless they were good marriage candidates xD).
There are obviously other factors at play, but it's interesting to note that while she gives an endless amount of grief to her mother now, it's because of her that she's one of the most talented pianists I've ever seen. On the other hand, I'm a rather mediocre drummer, guitarist, bassist, and producer, who spends all his spare time playing SC, HoN, Rock Band, random FPS, and Magic: the Gathering... when I'm not occasionally attending class. Call it anecdotal evidence, but I was never forced into strong work habits, and it shows.
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This woman's logic is flawed. There is no balance at all to her parenting which is the cause of many problems that are mentioned in this thread.
It doesn't take a Yale Law School professor to figure that out....
oh wait.
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Vatican City State1650 Posts
Wow. Somebody hated their upbringing. You know, even though she now became a successful journalist thanks to that.
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the little anecdote about lulu and the little donkey song perfectly encapsulates why there are so many asian kids posting HELP I HATE MY PARENTS blogs on TL. My god, that's fucking disgusting.
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On January 10 2011 02:36 Hawk wrote:
the little anecdote about lulu and the little donkey song perfectly encapsulates why there are so many asian kids posting HELP I HATE MY PARENTS blogs on TL. My god, that's fucking disgusting.
This, I almost threw up. If this were my parents I don't know what I'd do seriously.
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Honestly if I was asian I would be pretty upset with this article... I am sure this is a very general article, but the perceptions people will make because of this will be astounding.
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It's highly arguable that this Chinese method is better than the Western one. There are clear advantages and disadvantages with the advantages being obvious. However, it's important for a child to find out who his/herself is without too much influence from parents.
I think it's wrong to disallow a child from enjoying their life and a shitload of constant work will depress a child. There are qualities of the Chinese method which I'm in favour of but I do think it's too strict to be healthily beneficial.
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On January 09 2011 11:16 Robellicose wrote:
Most of my asian friends at university had horrific work ethics because of this type of upbringing. They put in stupendous hours of solo work, and there was no noticeable improvement in their grades compared to us 'westerners'. They never socialised because they were working all the time, and two I knew were being treated for depression by their doctors but refused to go home or tell their parents because they were terrified of being labelled as a failure. Failure is something that will occur in real life, it's not possible to be perfect at everything you do and so this type of upbringing was crushing these guys' self esteem. Whilst I agree that westerners can sometimes be too lax with their children I heartily disapprove of this draconian parental model the author suggests.
The way to success is to "fail early and fail often", so you can learn from your mistakes and be successful.
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While I feel that modern Western parents are often too lenient toward their children, the woman doesn't seem to take into account the possibility of a lurking variable. Come on now, if you only allow the top echelon of educated people into America, no wonder their children will take education seriously! I mean, education is what allowed their parents to be successful, therefore there's a higher priority placed on education, and the kids will focus more on education than other things. =/ They will try harder, at the expense of social life and such, to get into the top universities. Furthermore, these parents who have immigrated are most likely very intelligent people themselves. Why wouldn't their children be intelligent too? I think having Asian kids seem to dominate is more the effect of letting only the highly educated parents immigrate instead of anything else.
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A major problem with anecdotal evidence - ie "I have an asian friend with similar parents and he/she has 99% in so and so subjects and is the next Mozart" - is that rarely do you ever get past the highly-cultivated, overachiever exterior and to the neuroses within. Unless of course it's one of those kids who has already broken and is the type to make "I HATE MY PARENTS" blogs on TL.
I cannot count how many times a kid has seemed perfectly normal, doing great in school, only to suddenly go off into the deep end. Rampant drug use, self harm ie cutting, hypersexuality, dropping out of school despite amazing grades and more than enough credits to graduate, or even suicide. The most extreme examples are the kids who have bottled up so much over decades that one day they come home and in an argument over how many hours they can spend on the computer or something they end up killing their mothers.
Having known and seen so many such kids for so long, you start to see the warning signs (dermatillomania of the fingers/thumbs is a huge one), and of course anytime you see an overbearing mother alarm bells go off. But trust me when I say this kind of parenting causes problems. Whether or not those problems are visible depends on the kid and how much torture they can withstand, but even the success stories wind up being high-strung stuffed-shirts (and if they're dudes, asian girls can't stand them). Proper social and mental skills are more conducive to living a good life or at the very least just being mentally healthy, and that is something these parents ignore entirely.
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EPT
