Drawing pictures of Muhammad (any kind, even showing a little bit of face) is likened to a cardinal sin in Islam and is deeply offensive to the majority of muslims. It is similar to how western society views paedophilia (abhorrent but you know the classical greeks did it!).
Sure, we see paedophilia as abhorrent. We also used to see homosexuality as abhorrent and disgusting. The reason why we continue to see paedophilia as wrong is that it involves hurting children.
Cultural taboos aren't all equivalent. They do have to be questioned and dispensed with if they prove to be unfounded. So yes, hurting children is wrong, drawing Muhammed isn't.
You have a valid point. But it isnt merely cultural, it is religious.
Its more like telling jewish people not to eat kosher food.
Coming from a muslim upbringing, I can tell you people believe the Quran and base their whole life around it. The cartoons also took the piss out of muslims. This is why they dont just get silently irritated at people shitting on their beliefs, but visibly upset.
Would catholics get annoyed if someone showed the Pope having cartoon sex with jesus in the anus? I would think most adherent catholics would.
The western world is shitting on the muslim world. "Intervention" in the form of middle east wars has needlessly killed millions of people. Justifying intervention with the notion of freedom is bullshit. The west supports corrupt dictators in the middle east who suppress their subjects. Democracy? Iran is very democratic (with the caveat that it is a theocracy(but iranians wanted it) but the west wants "regime change". The palestinians elected a government in hamas. The west didnt like them so is now treaing Gaza as a prison. Overthrowing democratically elected government of iran twice via the CIA? Supporting the crazy terrorists in Afghanistan when the were fighting the russians that were the ones which actually caused 9/11?
The view of western nations in the muslim world is quite terrible to be honest. The notion of fairness and liberty as western ideals are ridiculous. Saying freedom of speech is a right is bullshit. Look whats happening to Bradly Manning who exposed the deceit? 23 hrs in solitary confinement. The wikileaks guy "deserves to be hunted like a terrorist"?
The muslim people have being seeing through the bullshit for a while but dont do anything because the Quran tells them the afterlife is where they will be rewarded. Those crazies who bombed america are just that. Crazy. They ignored bits of the Quran about peace just like you are telling people to in terms of the cartoons. They do represent the sentiment that america deserves retribution for its double standards and interference. But the Quran tells people not to do anything (be non-violent). If you take away this strict interpretation of the Quran all hell will break loose.
On January 13 2011 12:28 UberThing wrote: Would catholics get annoyed if someone showed the Pope having cartoon sex with jesus in the anus? I would think most adherent catholics would.
Of course they would be annoyed but being "annoyed" isnt a valid reason for limiting free speech. I'm annoyed every time someone says the earth is little more than 6000 years old but I wouldn't want it to be illegal for them to say that. (I might not want them teaching that in schools but that's a different issue)
On January 13 2011 12:28 UberThing wrote: The western world is shitting on the muslim world. "Intervention" in the form of middle east wars has needlessly killed millions of people. Justifying intervention with the notion of freedom is bullshit. The west supports corrupt dictators in the middle east who suppress their subjects. Democracy? Iran is very democratic (with the caveat that it is a theocracy(but iranians wanted it) but the west wants "regime change". The palestinians elected a government in hamas. The west didnt like them so is now treaing Gaza as a prison. Overthrowing democratically elected government of iran twice via the CIA? Supporting the crazy terrorists in Afghanistan when the were fighting the russians that were the ones which actually caused 9/11?
No one in this thread has advocated for this.... It's very possible (maybe even likely) that muslims are being demonized by the west but that's not what this thread is about.
Edit: i found more stuff in this post that bothered me.
I got the first bit wrong. I meant non-kosher food. Another analogy. Its like making making jokes about the holocaust (esp to jewish people). Very distasteful. There are concrete religous reasons why his face is never shown.
Secondly, I was explaining why muslims peacefully protested as is their right. Only a few crazies went all jihad but I talk about that later in the opinion (they are essentially funded by the Saudis who are US allies). I bet you would get some extremist fundamentalist Christian doing some explosive stuff if you offended and humiliated them enough (see Ireland)
The third point was to point out the injustice that muslims feel westerners have brought to their doorstep and the built up resentment that muslims feel. The examples were not about demonisation as such but are to be treated as the facts which support the feelings of injustice and anti-western values (Western values I think in principle are awesome, but not the way the government are currently doing so)
On January 13 2011 12:28 UberThing wrote: You have a valid point. But it isnt merely cultural, it is religious.
Its more like telling jewish people not to eat kosher food.
Coming from a muslim upbringing, I can tell you people believe the Quran and base their whole life around it. The cartoons also took the piss out of muslims. This is why they dont just get silently irritated at people shitting on their beliefs, but visibly upset.
Would catholics get annoyed if someone showed the Pope having cartoon sex with jesus in the anus? I would think most adherent catholics would.
The western world is shitting on the muslim world. "Intervention" in the form of middle east wars has needlessly killed millions of people. Justifying intervention with the notion of freedom is bullshit. The west supports corrupt dictators in the middle east who suppress their subjects. Democracy? Iran is very democratic (with the caveat that it is a theocracy(but iranians wanted it) but the west wants "regime change". The palestinians elected a government in hamas. The west didnt like them so is now treaing Gaza as a prison. Overthrowing democratically elected government of iran twice via the CIA? Supporting the crazy terrorists in Afghanistan when the were fighting the russians that were the ones which actually caused 9/11?
The view of western nations in the muslim world is quite terrible to be honest. The notion of fairness and liberty as western ideals are ridiculous. Saying freedom of speech is a right is bullshit. Look whats happening to Bradly Manning who exposed the deceit? 23 hrs in solitary confinement. The wikileaks guy "deserves to be hunted like a terrorist"?
The muslim people have being seeing through the bullshit for a while but dont do anything because the Quran tells them the afterlife is where they will be rewarded. Those crazies who bombed america are just that. Crazy. They ignored bits of the Quran about peace just like you are telling people to in terms of the cartoons. They do represent the sentiment that america deserves retribution for its double standards and interference. But the Quran tells people not to do anything (be non-violent). If you take away this strict interpretation of the Quran all hell will break loose.
There's no such thing as the "Western World" in this context. Different countries have different policies. Some of these policies enjoy wide support, some are controversial even within individual countries. Anyone who doesn't appreciate the complexity and variety of opinions and philosophies isn't seeing through the bullshit. He's just switching one simplistic worldview to another.
You see American imperialism, Palestine and the Muhammed comics as part of the same story. That is the west hurting, exploiting and insulting the Muslim world.
My viewpoint is a little different. I find similarities between lying about WMDs in Iraq, trying to suppress wikileaks and banning drawings of Muhammed. All of them are about defending authority from legitimate criticism.
I don't think complete freedom of speech is essential. However the right to question authority is. Both political and religious authority. Because if we don't, there are people who are more than willing to abuse that authority.
I do understand that this is important and upsetting for many Muslims. But frankly, I don't see a solution that makes everyone happy. The conclusion, for me personally, is that if there's enough reason for this ban than we should strive to undermine Islam and weaken people's faith to the point where they no longer care. Of course I think that's something we should be doing with all religions anyway, so I'm a little biased obviously
On January 13 2011 11:24 UberThing wrote: People are losing perspective here.
There are over 1 billion muslims in the world. To categorise those who bombed America in the same category as the west is ridiculous.
As long as muslims - even moderate muslims - keep saying things like "these drawings/these statements/these actions are an insult to 1 billion muslims world wide" it makes perfect sense to view them all as one, sheep-minded group.
“Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French…What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct…If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs… As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.” -Mahatma Gandhi 1938
They respond with aggression against Lars Vilks in Sweden... violent, violent people... had there been no police around, they'd have beaten him... what happened to all the supposed peace that their religion advocates...
On January 13 2011 11:24 UberThing wrote: People are losing perspective here.
There are over 1 billion muslims in the world. To categorise those who bombed America in the same category as the west is ridiculous.
As long as muslims - even moderate muslims - keep saying things like "these drawings/these statements/these actions are an insult to 1 billion muslims world wide" it makes perfect sense to view them all as one, sheep-minded group.
I meant to rest not west. I have edited my post
The majority of protests against it were peaceful which by any standard is a legitimate right. The strength of feeling is and still is very strong against all depictions of Muhammad (even good ones).
People are bound by religion. Insulting the Pope enough would inevitably lead to some of the 1 billion catholics getting angry. SOme may go "crazy" and do extreme things. Its called touching a raw nerve The cultural difference is that it would take paedophillic images (no pun intended) to do this whereas the prevailing culture (lets forget that it tells u not to draw him in the Quran) in Muslim countries tells people not to depict his face.
The guys who do the crazy stuff like explosives and killing are not muslims, yet your opinion above says all 1 billion people should be classified under the same umbrella as these crazy people. This is just the kind of thinking and rhetoric that the government of US + allies used to get us into Iraq when we essentially had no business there.
The guy Saddam hated these guys (the crazies) but somehow we got persuaded by the argument that these he somehow supported the extremists. The US has supported them more than him (CIA afghan-russia war) war ! I aint defending him. He did some quite bad things. But with over 1 million war deaths (mostly civilian) I dont think that is a worthwhile price. We came in saying we wanted to free them from a dictatorship and oppression. We did that (with all those inevitable deaths in war) biut we replaced it with fear and death. Corruption is huge in Iraq as the dollars are pumped in. The country has gone backwards except now we have a decent oil supply. I like the oil cause it makes our countries good but I find it hard to sleep at night realising the unnecessary deaths that occured by this unnecessary war.
Courtesy] should dictate not to publish these images. I do not advocate a law banning this like paedophilia or Holocaust denial which are heineous crimes etc.
On January 13 2011 18:34 nalgene wrote: “Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French…What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct…If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs… As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.” -Mahatma Gandhi 1938
They respond with aggression against Lars Vilks in Sweden... violent, violent people... had there been no police around, they'd have beaten him... what happened to all the supposed peace that their religion advocates...
These are the fundamentalists/extremists. How can you tarnish the many with the actions of a few? These guys are not true muslims as they resort to these tactic to express their feelings. Islam is about peace. SOmetimes I see this as a bad thing because people and countries take advantage of the peaceful muslim nature and do terrible things. A few muslims get sooo pissed off they do things which make them not muslim, yet the media represent them as muslim spokespeople. You have to see the bigger picture. Muslim fundamentalism is a result of people shitting on muslim countries because they can with no real consequences. Its called blowback fuelled by frustration at unfairness
Looking what has happened to the Palestine people, they have been treated goddam unfairly. How can any country which supports their oppression and containment take the moral high ground?
They were forcibly removed from their land and homes (at gun-point/ war refugee) by foreign people who settled in their old homes. Other countries had their own agendas and couldnt care less. I know what happened to the Jews is very very bad but shouldnt those who know unfairness first hand know better? The politics of the matter obscures the reality on the ground. Look at the facts. Look at UN mandates.
Why does no media outlet report in a fair and unbiased manner? Militant palestinians take hostage 1 Israeli soldier during a war. Big thing in the world media. Israel army breaks into a civilian mans house and kills him in his bed in front of his wife and children in the middle of the night. The guy was an average joe. Who lost their life? WHy do palestinians become militant? Incidents like this. Morally indefensible
So you're saying we should not even bother putting forth the effort to learning why we should not respect a belief and simply assume they're all bad (including Atheist beliefs because unless you're a Nihilist, you believe in something)?
Atheism isnt a belief, it is a disbelief. Theism->Religion, atheism is simply a lack of belief, thus not a belief system, and it lacks dogmas of any kind.
Religion is given all too much unearnead respect as it is, they have zero proof for their claims and we are supposed to respect this? give me a break.
It's your right to be offended, and mine to not care if you are.
That kind of insensitivity gets people hurt. Not everyone will react violently to offense but some will whether it's insulting your mom, your wife, your religion etc - insults which attack the heart , and should banned IMO because idiots can not control themselves on both sides. Loud mouths and violent people.
If you like violence then carry on. Might as well get rid of all your speech laws including those on Nazism, race, sex and be consistent. You can say whatever you want legally, anywhere, none has a right to be offended. You know this won't work tho.
Yes, if you get a confirmation stating that you are Jewish, signed by a rabbi residing outside Israel. There is no difference between born Jews and converted Jews, all qualify for Mahal IDF programs. The confirmation must have a detailed letterhead with name of the Jewish community, address, phone, fax and email. The exact name of the rabbi must be clearly readable.
Mahal-IDF-Volunteers.org does not check the validity of conversions. If you want to check the validity your conversion for the purpose of Israeli immigration, send the rabbi's confirmation to the Jewish Agency Aliya Representative for your country.
You don't need to be born to any true israelites from the tribes to become part of the IDF provided that you can speak hebrew/convert to judaism/signed by rabbi outside of Israel.
They could come from anywhere before joining the IDF if they can fulfill those requirements...
"Ever since King David made Jerusalem the capital of Israel 3,000 years ago, the city has played a central role in Jewish existence. The Western Wall in the Old City — the last remaining wall of the ancient Jewish Temple, the holiest site in Judaism — is the object of Jewish veneration and the focus of Jewish prayer. Three times a day for thousands of years Jews have prayed, “To Jerusalem, thy city, shall we return with joy,” and have repeated the Psalmist's oath: “If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.”"
"The Islamic conquest of Palestine, which began in 633, was the beginning of a 1,300-year span during which more than ten different empires, governments, and dynasties were to rule in the Holy Land prior to the British occupation after World War I.
In 638, the Jews in Palestine assisted the Muslim forces in defeating the Persians who had reneged on an agreement to protect them and allow them to resettle in Jerusalem. As a reward for their assistance, the Muslims permitted the Jews to return to Jerusalem and to guard the Temple Mount.
The Muslims fended off their rivals until the end of the 11th century. In 1095, Pope Urban II called for Crusades to regain Palestine from the infidels. They succeeded in 1099 and celebrated by herding all the Jews into a synagogue and burning them alive. Non-Christians were subsequently barred from the city.
Saladin succeeded in expelling the Crusaders and recaptured Jerusalem for the Muslims in 1187. Two years later, the Christians mounted the Third Crusade to retake Jerusalem, but Saladin's forces repelled them."
muslims from 638-1099 took the lands from the israelites... christianity comes into play at 1099+ with the crusades...
israelites took back their own home by 1948/ 67... which it had always been theirs for 3000 years... but got driven away by other powers... the muslims were occupying their lands for a thousand years...
the oil exports from all other countries to the USA dropped in 2000 / 2001/ / 2002 while Canada increased the exports to USA in that same time and then 2003 happened...
On January 14 2011 10:02 nalgene wrote: israelites took back their own home by 1948/ 67... which it had always been theirs for 3000 years... but got driven away by other powers... the muslims were occupying their lands for a thousand years...
Hm, by that reasoing, can we have back France now please? Or can the frenc have us back? Don't know who gets to keep whom here, since its all so confusing.
Don't you think if your people lived in a place for 1000 years it is quite difficult for you to understand why you should suddenly leave? People get used to stuff if it belongs to their families for a few generations. not saying that is the basis for legal decisions but every sane person can anticipate that this is going to cause trouble.
israelites took back their own home by 1948/ 67... which it had always been theirs for 3000 years... but got driven away by other powers... the muslims were occupying their lands for a thousand years...
the oil exports from all other countries to the USA dropped in 2000 / 2001/ / 2002 while Canada increased the exports to USA in that same time and then 2003 happened...
Occupation is when "territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army".
Sorry this reasoning doesnt stack up. How can land be yours for 3000 years? You rebelled against the romans and lost. This is like The UK claiming brittany in france as their territory because the anglo-saxon rulers were once (a very long time ago) from that area and used to rule both. The UK claiming the Americas? Wishful thinking perhaps on part? The jewish claim to land west of the river jordan that people lawfully already owned and lived on for countless generations was absurd and still is. Not to mention the way in which muslims and christians were "removed" to make way. I understand that Jews were treated very badly 2-3000 years ago but how can this justify treating another group just as badly in the same manner in the modern world through no fault of their own. Uncivilised? Barbaric?
There was never a muslim occupation of lands. To call it that is unjustified and a perversion of the truth. If anything isnt this bigoted? Muslims allowed Jews sanctity when they were being persecuted elsewhere. Jews had religous freedom under the Ottoman empire and were free to worship at the temple and own land. How do you justify how you treated the palestinians and how you still treat them?
Not all Jewish people share the view you expressed. I believe you expressed Zionism and I am totally unconvinced of the merits of its arguments. Some guys in the late 19th century thought that it would be good to kick people off their land to make way so they could have their own "homeland". Using the holocaust as a catalyst for this? This is emotional blackmail.
Secondly, what exactly are you trying to say? War stimulates the economy?
If Israel didn't exist, they'd shift their efforts elsewhere...towards other countries... there's also 6 arab nations that are against Israel's existence... but you'd just cause more grief/sorrow to the people in that land if you took apart that country right now...
" In addition to goods and businesses, many Arab states refuse to allow entrance to anyone who uses an Israeli passport or who has any Israeli stamp in his or her passport. The stamp may be a visa stamp, or a stamp on entry or departure. It can also include a stamp of another country which indicates that the person has entered Israel. For example, if an Egyptian departure stamp is used in any passport at the Taba Crossing, that is an indication that the person entered Israel. * Algeria * Bangladesh * Brunei * Djibouti * Iran * Kuwait * Lebanon * Libya * Malaysia (Clearance permit needed from the Ministry of Internal Security). * Pakistan * Saudi Arabia * Sudan * Syria * United Arab Emirates * Yemen Arab boycotts of Zionist institutions and Jewish businesses began before Israel's founding as a state. An official boycott was adopted by the Arab League almost immediately after the formation of the state of Israel in 1948, but is not fully implemented in practice. "
On January 13 2011 11:24 UberThing wrote: People are losing perspective here.
There are over 1 billion muslims in the world. To categorise those who bombed America in the same category as the west is ridiculous.
As long as muslims - even moderate muslims - keep saying things like "these drawings/these statements/these actions are an insult to 1 billion muslims world wide" it makes perfect sense to view them all as one, sheep-minded group.
The only sheep-minded person here is you son, adhering to American media and blindly following the masses is exactly what you're doing by criticizing Islam so much. Not to mention religion in general. Go suck up to your little friends and leave minorities alone you dirty racist little man.
On January 14 2011 19:41 nalgene wrote: The Americans send 3 billion USD annually to Israel to keep them at bay... and they frequently cross train each others
They do have American corporations extracting the oil from arab lands...
If Israel didn't exist, they'd shift their efforts elsewhere...towards other countries... there's also 6 arab nations that are against Israel's existence... but you'd just cause more grief/sorrow to the people in that land if you took apart that country right now...
" In addition to goods and businesses, many Arab states refuse to allow entrance to anyone who uses an Israeli passport or who has any Israeli stamp in his or her passport. The stamp may be a visa stamp, or a stamp on entry or departure. It can also include a stamp of another country which indicates that the person has entered Israel. For example, if an Egyptian departure stamp is used in any passport at the Taba Crossing, that is an indication that the person entered Israel. * Algeria * Bangladesh * Brunei * Djibouti * Iran * Kuwait * Lebanon * Libya * Malaysia (Clearance permit needed from the Ministry of Internal Security). * Pakistan * Saudi Arabia * Sudan * Syria * United Arab Emirates * Yemen Arab boycotts of Zionist institutions and Jewish businesses began before Israel's founding as a state. An official boycott was adopted by the Arab League almost immediately after the formation of the state of Israel in 1948, but is not fully implemented in practice. "
Well, if Israel didn't bully the shit out of women and children, I wouldn't mind Israel either. Arab nations have every right to be pissed with Israel. They don't even follow their own laws.
On January 13 2011 11:24 UberThing wrote: People are losing perspective here.
There are over 1 billion muslims in the world. To categorise those who bombed America in the same category as the west is ridiculous.
As long as muslims - even moderate muslims - keep saying things like "these drawings/these statements/these actions are an insult to 1 billion muslims world wide" it makes perfect sense to view them all as one, sheep-minded group.
The only sheep-minded person here is you son, adhering to American media and blindly following the masses is exactly what you're doing by criticizing Islam so much. Not to mention religion in general. Go suck up to your little friends and leave minorities alone you dirty racist little man.
Yea good post. I don't understand the religion hate in general. Many people are just religious because it was tradition or how they were raised or offers a semblance of structure much like man made laws do. I know some people who don't even really 100% believe in men in the sky perse but they are still Muslim.Cristian etc. If you are atheist or agnostic even you think these laws were man made, so hows that different than today? It's not if one thinks about it. Its really silly to hate people for religion not to mention bigoted. And then clumping everyone as a radical is just as crazy as it gets.
BTW all America Media is not fox news channel so be careful about generalizing too,.
On January 14 2011 22:45 tdt wrote: Yea good post. I don't understand the religion hate in general. Many people are just religious because it was tradition or how they were raised or offers a semblance of structure much like man made laws do. I know some people who don't even really 100% believe in men in the sky perse but they are still Muslim.Cristian etc. If you are atheist or agnostic even you think these laws were man made, so hows that different than today? It's not if one thinks about it. Its really silly to hate people for religion not to mention bigoted. And then clumping everyone as a radical is just as crazy as it gets.
BTW all America Media is not fox news channel so be careful about generalizing too,.
I think the hate is towards churches more than against religions, or in other way, people that oppse religion are mostly opposing institutionalized religion. There resons for that are quite simple, for example:
- not abiding by the rules of their holy book but at the same time claiming moral high grounds - abuse of relgious authority for political/personal benefit - war in the name of faith (so much for "though shalt not kill") - claining to know "god's will" (god hates fags, god hates libearls, god wants us to invade Iraq, etc.) - backwards rules (prohibition of condomes in africa, women can't become priests)
I could go on but I guess you get the point. If people considered religion as something private to spend solcae, give moral guidance or motivate them to be a better person, that is excellent and I guess, most people would not have a problem with that.
In general Islam it is prohibited for even imaging the faces of the Prophets or Imams. It is not however prohibited for Christians to imagine the face of Jesus (if it is please correct me). This is the major difference between the two religions. Those who believe that drawing these cartoons or depictions of Prophet Muhammad is completely okay then those people are the ignorant ones for not understanding this difference. Why should Islam cope, adapt, and follow these cultural differences not within their own country if those producing these drawings do not follow the rules of Islam. Muslims have the same right to protest as much as these people draw these pictures. In Islam it is also accepted that "the tongue is sharper than the sword." Which would you rather choose in front of the public? To be ridiculed and humiliated by all you know or simply be punched in the face. Do not be ignorant and think for less than 2 seconds before making this judgement. To those who believe that these drawings are okay: Do you honestly believe that these drawings have been rightfully produced? Is it 100% okay to draw these pictures? If your answer is yes without any implications, I sincerely feel sorry for your complete ignorance and lack of thought.
Islam follows a set of laws. If you do not follow their laws they have as much of a right to not follow yours.
I am an opened minded person who try's to think for both sides. But I felt there was a lack of insight for Islamic rights.
On January 15 2011 00:26 nihoh wrote: Can I draw a picture of a person PRETENDING to be Muhammad?
You will be ignorant for drawing it if you think it does not hurt anyone. Read my post. If you hurt people they have as much of a right to hurt you. Hence, do not do things that will hurt others.
Everyone can do what he wants, however my question is more or else directed at Christians. I don't care about atheists/agnostics/etc. How can you make fun of Jesus when you claim he is the son of god? or all the other messengers of god such as Abraham, lot, Joseph, etc? They're the picked and chosen messengers of god yet you have no shame in ridiculing them?
EPT
