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On November 30 2010 13:08 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 13:04 Yamoth wrote:On November 30 2010 12:46 VIB wrote:
You guys think vaccines on young children are barbaric child abuse too? I mean, I could post videos of kids being vaccinated and crying like it's the end of the world yelling "plz don't kill me no waah waaah". It does look very cruel.
I still think you guys are way exaggerating over something silly. So let me get this straight, you are equating having the foreskin of the penis chopped off and bleeding to be on the same level of pain as a vaccination? Better example please. You're not making it look any less exaggeratedly silly.
I don't know about you, but if someone point a gun to my head a make be choose between getting vaccination, or circumcision, I would choose the vaccination in a heartbeat. Hell if I have to choose between circumcision and getting shot in the arm, I still wouldn't choose circumcision. So until there are scientific prove that an infant don't have the same reaction to pain as a toddler, I still can't in good conscience able to put my child to such an ordeal.
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I'm pretty sure that if you were 1 minute old you wouldn't choose anything and by the time you're 4 years old you wouldn't remember getting either ;p
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Why does the level of rhetoric need to be so high on such a ridiculous issue?
I'd rather be shot than get circumcised... Glad you're putting together 2 realistic options there. Child abuse is a legitimate concern and bad parenting should be policed more heavily for poor parenting and increased programs to help parents... but I'd say trying to ban circumcisions isn't the best outlet for this argument.
Hell, I'm much more concerned about parents who have some ridiculously strong inclination one way or the other towards circumcision than I am about the actual practice of it.
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This is also not "just a medical procedure."
This is an unnecessary medical procedure and should no longer be allowed to be done to children who can not consent to having their body altered.
This is what it comes down to. No, it is not the parent's right to do whatever they want to their children. Parents do not *own* children like a piece of property. Any parent who puts their child through this should be ashamed of themselves because they have denied their child the ability to experience their life and body how they see fit and to make their own informed decisions about how they might want to alter their body.
On another note, I am also opposed to parents getting their infant's or toddler's ears pierced. Unless the child asks for it and they know what it is going to entail, the parents have no right to do these things to their children.
Yes, I said it. They have no right. There is no medical benefit to either of these procedures (specifically in the case of circumcision, nothing benefical that regular hygiene cannot take care of) and doing these things to children without their consent is on the same level as rape and child abuse in my eyes.
Again, specifically with circumcision, this is an irreversible medical procedure. Supposedly you can put yourself through months or years of penis skin stretching to simulate a new foreskin, but your shouldn't have to go through that much work to get back something you had no say in having taken away from you.
Irreversible medical procedures for adults that do not have any physical health benefits require a note from a psychologist declaring that you're not crazy in order to have them done. It's crazy to do this to children.
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On November 30 2010 13:16 VIB wrote:
I'm pretty sure that if you were 1 minute old you wouldn't choose anything and by the time you're 4 years old you wouldn't remember getting either ;p
When I was 6, I was being stupid, hit my head on the counter, and got a huge gash that at that point hurt like hell. Now that I am 25 have don't really have any recollection the pain I felt during that incident, but I am sure as hell wouldn't want to go through it again. Yes, I understand that a child of couple days or minute old wouldn't remember much about the pain that he felt during the operation or during the first 3 years of his life. However, that still doesn't change that fact that at that moment, circumcision might be an excruciating pain for them.
Once again, I don't know if a child that young could feel pain or not. Since I don't, I rather error on the safe side. Especially if it involved a medically irrelevant procedure.
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The simple point is that unless somewhat made it an issue to convince you that you were mutilated, you would never know nor would you ever have an issue with it. So why is something like this such a big issue for some of you people? What about piercing a girl's ears as a baby? You people are droning on and on about how it should be the child's choice, but the reality is that a child has very little choice when it comes to the circumstances surrounding their upbringing. A child's fate as an adult is always tied to the choices his parents made for him. Strangely enough, I would imagine many people here arguing about this are also the very same people that are pro-choice for abortion because they don't feel a child has rights at that stage in life. Why do you then go and assume that a child should have rights at this stage (or any other stage)?
This isn't child abuse and it's far from a barbaric ritual. It takes place during a part of the child's life where the child will have no memory of it and therefore, there's no reason to think that there will be any traumatic effect that carries over into that child's life. If there was a single argument that I'd accept about this issue, it would probably the the concern raised over a medical procedure that could potentially go wrong and destroy the child's genitals, but that's pretty rare. Seriously, is there anyone here that has really SUFFERED due to being circumcised? From hygiene to sexual performance and health, everyone I know on both the cut and uncut ends are fine. You learn to deal with whatever you have, so why does it matter what you have?
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i was circumsized when i was 14 years old, i seen both sides of the spectrum. i have no regrets. anyways this wont pass lol
edit: why do people act like circumcision totally changes the kids life ?? it doesnt. im no different from someone non circumcised.
banning this practice is just some mad liberal douches (no im not conservative) acting up. why do they give clean IV needles to heroin addicts? cause their gonna shoot up anyway. atleast make it safe.
same shit with this, ban it and it will be done in a unsafe 3rd world fashion
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On November 30 2010 13:13 Yamoth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 13:08 VIB wrote:On November 30 2010 13:04 Yamoth wrote:On November 30 2010 12:46 VIB wrote:
You guys think vaccines on young children are barbaric child abuse too? I mean, I could post videos of kids being vaccinated and crying like it's the end of the world yelling "plz don't kill me no waah waaah". It does look very cruel.
I still think you guys are way exaggerating over something silly. So let me get this straight, you are equating having the foreskin of the penis chopped off and bleeding to be on the same level of pain as a vaccination? Better example please. You're not making it look any less exaggeratedly silly. I don't know about you, but if someone point a gun to my head a make be choose between getting vaccination, or circumcision, I would choose the vaccination in a heartbeat. Hell if I have to choose between circumcision and getting shot in the arm, I still wouldn't choose circumcision. So until there are scientific prove that an infant don't have the same reaction to pain as a toddler, I still can't in good conscience able to put my child to such an ordeal.
I'd rather dive into the center of a black hole than get un-circumcised. I'd rather be vaporized by radiation from the sun by standing point blank and asking it for his autograph than get un-circumcised. Hell, I'd rather be in the middle of the ocean ass naked aside from a top hat and bowling shoes surrounded by ravenous starved sharks floating on this:
![[image loading]](http://tinyurl.com/dbe2q) Than be un-circumcised..
So commence the butchering of all penises and fine them if they don't.
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Do people really think circumcision is that horrible? Jesus, what is wrong with you people? It really is "just a medical procedure." Yes, it is actually pretty minor. Besides, foreskin just looks bizarre anyway.
I see this as a blatant attack on Judiasm, honestly. I was actually under the impression that most people were circumcised nowadays, though.
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On November 30 2010 13:24 Yamoth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 13:16 VIB wrote:
I'm pretty sure that if you were 1 minute old you wouldn't choose anything and by the time you're 4 years old you wouldn't remember getting either ;p When I was 6, I was being stupid, hit my head on the counter, and got a huge gash that at that point hurt like hell. Now that I am 25 have don't really have any recollection the pain I felt during that incident, but I am sure as hell wouldn't want to go through it again. Yes, I understand that a child of couple days or minute old wouldn't remember much about the pain that he felt during the operation or during the first 3 years of his life. However, that still doesn't change that fact that at that moment, circumcision might be an excruciating pain for them. Once again, I don't know if a child that young could feel pain or not. Since I don't, I rather error on the safe side. Especially if it involved a medically irrelevant procedure. Hey, I have a scar in my right eyebrow from when I was 6 too  Which I remember that got me traumatized for a few months during which I was afraid to go back to the kitchen. That sounds a little cruel and it doesn't bring me anything good.
On the other hand I've got another scar. On my dick, from when I was 1 minute old. I don't remember any of that, I didn't get traumatized about it at point in my life. I don't remember thinking it was bad at all. For all practical effects, for me, the 'pain' I felt didn't exist. The only practical effect left is that it might have a slight chance of helping my hygiene. Which might be very small and insignificant. But is still more than the pain that I remember from it. Which is nothing.
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On November 30 2010 09:38 Mora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 07:48 xM(Z wrote:On November 30 2010 06:12 Mora wrote:On November 29 2010 15:22 travis wrote:On November 29 2010 15:15 Tarbosh wrote:
This thread has been a real eye-opener for me. I guess I am alone where in my community uncircumcised penises are somewhat looked down upon. Not in a serious way or anything, more in the manner that the occasional joke will be made about someone being uncircumcised. I've never seen anyone defend their uncircumcised self or be proud of it, until reading this. naw ur not alone in that On November 29 2010 15:17 Mora wrote:
Circumcised penises are more fantastic than uncut ones.
/contribution gross dude .... but now im curious. why? After a shower, they are for the most part the same (though a flacid cut penis is more pleasing to the eye than an ant eater). However, assuming that you're not going to have a shower right before oral sex everytime you want to engage with said activity... well, you can do an experiment: Go for a 30 minute walk (or an hour, for better results) with 1 hand palm open, and the other hand in a fist. Lick both palms at the end of your excursion. Voila. so let me get this. if you engage in the said activity: 2 cases, 2 penises, 1 cut, one uncut, both clean, it means that the uncircumcised penis is definitely washed while the circumcis one could have gone unwashed for days? i think the joke is on you. No. Everyone showers at least once daily. Regardless, a 2 day old unwashed cut cock tastes better than a 6 hour unwashed uncut cock. I've done the taste test; if you haven't, stop arguing. and, i know its not your area of expertise, but the sweating issue (even thow is not sweat) is more abundant in women and no one is cutting them.
shit now i regret being uncircumcised.
any tricks you know to get around penile dirtiness?
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On November 30 2010 13:38 ShaperofDreams wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 09:38 Mora wrote:On November 30 2010 07:48 xM(Z wrote:On November 30 2010 06:12 Mora wrote:On November 29 2010 15:22 travis wrote:On November 29 2010 15:15 Tarbosh wrote:
This thread has been a real eye-opener for me. I guess I am alone where in my community uncircumcised penises are somewhat looked down upon. Not in a serious way or anything, more in the manner that the occasional joke will be made about someone being uncircumcised. I've never seen anyone defend their uncircumcised self or be proud of it, until reading this. naw ur not alone in that On November 29 2010 15:17 Mora wrote:
Circumcised penises are more fantastic than uncut ones.
/contribution gross dude .... but now im curious. why? After a shower, they are for the most part the same (though a flacid cut penis is more pleasing to the eye than an ant eater). However, assuming that you're not going to have a shower right before oral sex everytime you want to engage with said activity... well, you can do an experiment: Go for a 30 minute walk (or an hour, for better results) with 1 hand palm open, and the other hand in a fist. Lick both palms at the end of your excursion. Voila. so let me get this. if you engage in the said activity: 2 cases, 2 penises, 1 cut, one uncut, both clean, it means that the uncircumcised penis is definitely washed while the circumcis one could have gone unwashed for days? i think the joke is on you. No. Everyone showers at least once daily. Regardless, a 2 day old unwashed cut cock tastes better than a 6 hour unwashed uncut cock. I've done the taste test; if you haven't, stop arguing. and, i know its not your area of expertise, but the sweating issue (even thow is not sweat) is more abundant in women and no one is cutting them. shit now i regret being uncircumcised. any tricks you know to get around penile dirtiness?
Just be mindful to keep it washed well and you'll be fine.
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From the same people that would let you abort the same baby 24 hours earlier.
Yea, this makes sense.
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On November 30 2010 13:45 cLutZ wrote:
From the same people that would let you abort the same baby 24 hours earlier.
Yea, this makes sense.
Stupid retort is stupid. Nice to see we are going down the road of generalize and demonizing your opponent. You are awesome.
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On November 30 2010 13:44 LegendaryZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 13:38 ShaperofDreams wrote:On November 30 2010 09:38 Mora wrote:On November 30 2010 07:48 xM(Z wrote:On November 30 2010 06:12 Mora wrote:On November 29 2010 15:22 travis wrote:On November 29 2010 15:15 Tarbosh wrote:
This thread has been a real eye-opener for me. I guess I am alone where in my community uncircumcised penises are somewhat looked down upon. Not in a serious way or anything, more in the manner that the occasional joke will be made about someone being uncircumcised. I've never seen anyone defend their uncircumcised self or be proud of it, until reading this. naw ur not alone in that On November 29 2010 15:17 Mora wrote:
Circumcised penises are more fantastic than uncut ones.
/contribution gross dude .... but now im curious. why? After a shower, they are for the most part the same (though a flacid cut penis is more pleasing to the eye than an ant eater). However, assuming that you're not going to have a shower right before oral sex everytime you want to engage with said activity... well, you can do an experiment: Go for a 30 minute walk (or an hour, for better results) with 1 hand palm open, and the other hand in a fist. Lick both palms at the end of your excursion. Voila. so let me get this. if you engage in the said activity: 2 cases, 2 penises, 1 cut, one uncut, both clean, it means that the uncircumcised penis is definitely washed while the circumcis one could have gone unwashed for days? i think the joke is on you. No. Everyone showers at least once daily. Regardless, a 2 day old unwashed cut cock tastes better than a 6 hour unwashed uncut cock. I've done the taste test; if you haven't, stop arguing. and, i know its not your area of expertise, but the sweating issue (even thow is not sweat) is more abundant in women and no one is cutting them. shit now i regret being uncircumcised. any tricks you know to get around penile dirtiness? Just be mindful to keep it washed well and you'll be fine.
You really wont...didn't you see all the things I'd rather do instead of being un-circumcised? This is a logical argument that you must consider now...Your ugly un-graced dick is a monstrosity to mankind. See how fun it is to use exaggeration as the basis of your argument? Fuck trying to make sense
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Ban braces and piercings and pulling teeth and removing tonsils and appendixes and hideous moles and weird birthmarks and skin tags until kids are 18! Save children from the oppressive hand of parents! The government is a better parent then they could ever be! Save me government!
Seriously this legislation is not needed. So you like don't like it, so you do - the government doesn't really need to have a say in something so insignificant.
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Doing something irreversible to a child before that child is old enough to understand and/or consent to that thing is pretty much the definition of parenting. The real question is whether you want the government doing more parenting for you or less. I happen to prefer less.
But anyway I hope all you "intactivists" out there have a grand old time on your trivial-ass campaign against the slaughterhouse horrors of circumcision.
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On November 30 2010 13:47 Yamoth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 13:45 cLutZ wrote:
From the same people that would let you abort the same baby 24 hours earlier.
Yea, this makes sense. Stupid retort is stupid. Nice to see we are going down the road of generalize and demonizing your opponent. You are awesome.
Actually that's a pretty hilarious post when you think about it.
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On November 30 2010 13:36 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 13:24 Yamoth wrote:On November 30 2010 13:16 VIB wrote:
I'm pretty sure that if you were 1 minute old you wouldn't choose anything and by the time you're 4 years old you wouldn't remember getting either ;p When I was 6, I was being stupid, hit my head on the counter, and got a huge gash that at that point hurt like hell. Now that I am 25 have don't really have any recollection the pain I felt during that incident, but I am sure as hell wouldn't want to go through it again. Yes, I understand that a child of couple days or minute old wouldn't remember much about the pain that he felt during the operation or during the first 3 years of his life. However, that still doesn't change that fact that at that moment, circumcision might be an excruciating pain for them. Once again, I don't know if a child that young could feel pain or not. Since I don't, I rather error on the safe side. Especially if it involved a medically irrelevant procedure. Hey, I have a scar in my right eyebrow from when I was 6 too Which I remember that got me traumatized for a few months during which I was afraid to go back to the kitchen. That sounds a little cruel and it doesn't bring me anything good. On the other hand I've got another scar. On my dick, from when I was 1 minute old. I don't remember any of that, I didn't get traumatized about it at point in my life. I don't remember thinking it was bad at all. For all practical effects, for me, the 'pain' I felt didn't exist. The only practical effect left is that it might have a slight chance of helping my hygiene. Which might be very small and insignificant. But is still more than the pain that I remember from it. Which is nothing.
Just because someone doesn't have any recollection of the pain they experience doesn't mean that it is okay that pain is inflicted upon them. With your reasoning, it is okay for people to hurt vegetative and brain damage people cause hell, not like they know what is happening to them. My argument for against circumcision still remain the same.
1. For the most part, circumcision is a medically irrelevant operation with no significant benefit for infant born in industrialized nation.
2. There is a growing concern that a newborn infant can feel pain. If that pain is from something that is unneeded, I don't feel that it should be dealt to an infant.
3. Religious and traditional practice is not a good excuse for such an operation to take place.
4. I rather let the kid get older, maybe at an age of 16 where in is informed enough to choose if he want to be circumcise or not.
5. Circumcision is an irreversible or very expensive to reverse, thus such choice should belong to the individual and not their parent.
Prove me wrong and I will gladly concede my position.
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For all of you suggesting that you don't remember it and wouldn't miss it, why stop at just the foreskin? Why not just cut children's penis and testicles off while you're at it? Sure it may hurt, but you won't remember it and you won't miss it because you'll never know what it's like to have it in the first place.
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EPT
