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On November 25 2010 14:36 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 12:56 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 12:13 LSB wrote:On November 25 2010 12:04 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 12:00 LSB wrote:On November 25 2010 11:07 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 10:21 LSB wrote:On November 25 2010 10:14 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 09:50 LSB wrote:On November 25 2010 09:44 Impervious wrote:
[quote]
I just finished watching it, and took a few minutes to gather my thoughts, before replying to this.
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I don't see a problem with their system (not that I prefer it over democracy, however). There are definitely several faults with the country, however. They have a leader that is more concerned with preserving his interests than bettering the individual and becoming more powerful as a group. Their devotion is centered around a hatred of the US (which is reasonable, since they were on the recieving end of US tech during their attempt at reunifying the country, and the leaders capitalized on that to unify the people's resolve in the tough times that followed). Everyone being cutoff from information from the rest of the world also hurts, since they will never know what is going on internationally, nor what has happened since the war, unless the leaders let them know about it (do they even know that the US put men on the moon, as an example of what I mean). While limiting public information is definitely a useful thing in some cases (lets face it, not many people are in the need to know about many things that happen, for security and safety reasons), NK seems to have taken it far too far. Being self-sufficient is definitely a desireable quality that any country should strive for, however, every country (for geographical, social, or other reasons) is better at some things than other, and trade between countries can help both involved, and being in a situation where there is next to no outside contact or trade definitely hurts the country. There is definitely a lot of room for improvement of NK. Then again, the same can be said for every country on earth, don't forget that. It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all. If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown. Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency. Are you truly free? Or has societal influences shaped your path so far? Really, really think hard about this. When you were younger, what did you do? Were you on any sports teams? What were your extracurricular activities? What were your hobbies? How good were your grades? Did you always do your homework? Did you discover any particular strengths and talents you had when you were younger? Did these somehow shape where you went later on in your life? If some of those things were different, would you be where you are now? Their type of system seems to take it one step further, that's all. They figure out which path you should be in (they described it as "peasant", "worker", and "intellectual"). From there, they probably figure out some particular strand you should be in, based on your strengths/weaknesses and talents, and this keeps going until they find something useful in society for you to do, regardless of what your strengths/weakness or skills are. It would put people in positions where they can be successful. And when you've been successful at something, you take pride in it. They may not have the same "freedom" that you have, but if they're happy, does it actually matter? I know you watched that documentary and saw the smiling kid doing her best to try to preform in front of the great leader. But what about those kids who don't want to be a gymnast? What about the peasants of dreams to go to school and live a good life? They have no choice. Sure you can get all ivory tower and question if free will actually exists. But the stark reality of repression is pretty depressing It wasn't just the smiling kid, it was the other people who were filmed as well. TBH, I payed more attention to what the adults said, and how they acted, more than her..... It shows what that type of society is capable of. Of course, starving your population is not a good practice..... I did say that there are some problems with the country (and that's a pretty big one). Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well..... Pointing out one fault in a system doesn't help, when other systems that you'd like to think are "better" still have that problem..... Capitalism = The Poor get screwed over Communism= Everyone but the rich and powerful gets screwed over. Overall, capitalism benefits far more people. Also, the poor in modern society has a chance for vertical social movement. NK they get a chance to work in the gulags. There are definitely a lot of things wrong with the country, no doubt. But you can't simply say a system is soley better because "more people don't get screwed over", can you? Because if you go by that logic, Capitalism is fucking terrible compared to Socialism, because nobody gets screwed over. Downside is that the drive for improvements is no longer as dominant, since the monetary issue is pretty much off the table. but, hey, at least nobody gets screwed over, right? And, yea, people get screwed over in the USA (and in Canada as well), it's just that it's more difficult to see, and it's not as severe. There are still people living on the streets, begging for meals in many cities in Canada..... EDIT - I think some people need to see this: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy.htmlHappyness != choice..... What's more important? Then why don't you move to North Korea? Because I have realized that I'm quite happy and content with where I am and what I have. Can't you be quiet happy and content also in North Korea? The government, will decide your decisions for you! You can take pride in working in the Gulags! And also the government will take away all that food you 'really don't need'. I can't see why you wouldn't want to go Socialism is better right? Did you even watch that TED talk I linked? Of course, I could drop out of university, book a ticket to China, find my way to the border and somehow get myself into NK and start begging on the streets if I wanted to. But look at the other option - I don't drop out, I get a degree, get a job, and live a decent life. Do I really have a choice? It's an illusion of choice. Sure, you can make a choice like "oh, I'll get a pizza instead of a burger", or something similar, but any main, important thing in your life is pretty much an illusion. Lotta info to get to a big point incoming: I was born into a household where both of my parents did not have university educations. My mother had taken some college courses, however. Both of my parents, nonetheless, had successful jobs. My mother decided to trade in her job to be a housewife at one point when I was younger. Because of the job she did have, I was exposed to computer systems at an age of 18 months. I've learned how to use computers to a decent level (nothing close to R1CH, he's a fucking god). I was also introduced to videogaming through computers. She also made sure that I was good in school, I was a straight A student (with the exception of any courses in French). Because my father was a very hands-on person, I learned a lot of stuff from him. He was also a high level chess player, and I used to play him a lot, and after a while, it became less about looking at individual moves, and looking at combinations, then it went to recognizing tempo, then it went to recognizing minute positional advantages, and then it started to become almost instinctual, I was able to simply remember situations and know what the best response was, without thinking about it. Both of my parents pretty much forced me into extracurricular activities. I was involved in learning the piano at one point, I played soccer, etc. I met some of my best friends through these things. I was born with a slight problem with my knees. The choices were either surgery (which was not 100% guaranteed to work, and was rather experimental at the time), braces like Forrest Gump had, or taking years of dance/gymnastics/martial arts to strengthen my legs to compensate for the problem. I studied ballet and martial arts for years (martial arts for a much longer period of time, I dropped ballet pretty quickly, probably for social reasons instead of me actually disliking it). My legs have been rediculously strong ever since. To the main point I'm getting at - Even in high school, when I "wanted" to play on the football team, there were so many factors going into it (several friends on the team, relatively good shape for my size, peer pressure, discipline and leg strength from martial arts, leg strength from ballet, strategy love from the years of chess, my years of studying hard allowing me to have a relatively easy time in high school which gave me free time for it, years of playing videogames allowing me to know how to get into "the zone" and focus completely at the task at hand, etc). Ultimately, I can't look back at it and simply think that it was merely my "choice", more like a logical culmination of many different events in my past led to that outcome. And I enjoyed it immensely, even though it really was an illusion of choice for me. My parents always worked hard at making sure I would be able to do better for myself than they were able to do for themselves. Going to a post-secondary education was definitely the result of that hard work. My parents (and many people I knew) figured I would go into engineering by the time I was 4 years old. Initially, they thought I'd be better in mechanical or robotics engineering because I used to always be good at building and programming robots and stuff, but I'm in Civil. There are even reasons for this (I worked for a construction company doing roadwork for a summer and was amazed at how quickly that stuff could be done, I worked for a landscaper for a summer and was fascinated by what he was able to do, I have family in the industry, I've always been around people who are good at doing renovations, in grade 2 I built a bridge as a school project that could hold my weight, etc). Even in University, my choice for being a frosh guide this year wasn't simply just me deciding to sign up without any influence on the reason - I've got several friends who are involved in our student society and plans the week (including a good friend of mine being the person who pretty much organized the week), I have these big-brother type instincts (thanks to having 3 much younger siblings, which I had to help raise when my dad passed away), memories of how awesome my frosh week was and obviously wanting to repeat it, etc..... I've realized for a long time that I am the sum of all my previous experiences - they shape who I am and who I will become. I'm totally fine with that. To me, the "free choice" people seem to love is just an illusion. Yeah, you totally have it as bad as the North Koreans, no choice whatsoever in your extra-curricular activities or fraternity. Dude, come on.
Did I say I have it bad?
I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation.
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On November 25 2010 14:42 Impervious wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 14:36 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On November 25 2010 12:56 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 12:13 LSB wrote:On November 25 2010 12:04 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 12:00 LSB wrote:On November 25 2010 11:07 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 10:21 LSB wrote:On November 25 2010 10:14 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 09:50 LSB wrote:
[quote]
It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all.
If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown.
Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency. Are you truly free? Or has societal influences shaped your path so far? Really, really think hard about this. When you were younger, what did you do? Were you on any sports teams? What were your extracurricular activities? What were your hobbies? How good were your grades? Did you always do your homework? Did you discover any particular strengths and talents you had when you were younger? Did these somehow shape where you went later on in your life? If some of those things were different, would you be where you are now? Their type of system seems to take it one step further, that's all. They figure out which path you should be in (they described it as "peasant", "worker", and "intellectual"). From there, they probably figure out some particular strand you should be in, based on your strengths/weaknesses and talents, and this keeps going until they find something useful in society for you to do, regardless of what your strengths/weakness or skills are. It would put people in positions where they can be successful. And when you've been successful at something, you take pride in it. They may not have the same "freedom" that you have, but if they're happy, does it actually matter? I know you watched that documentary and saw the smiling kid doing her best to try to preform in front of the great leader. But what about those kids who don't want to be a gymnast? What about the peasants of dreams to go to school and live a good life? They have no choice. Sure you can get all ivory tower and question if free will actually exists. But the stark reality of repression is pretty depressing It wasn't just the smiling kid, it was the other people who were filmed as well. TBH, I payed more attention to what the adults said, and how they acted, more than her..... It shows what that type of society is capable of. Of course, starving your population is not a good practice..... I did say that there are some problems with the country (and that's a pretty big one). Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well..... Pointing out one fault in a system doesn't help, when other systems that you'd like to think are "better" still have that problem..... Capitalism = The Poor get screwed over Communism= Everyone but the rich and powerful gets screwed over. Overall, capitalism benefits far more people. Also, the poor in modern society has a chance for vertical social movement. NK they get a chance to work in the gulags. There are definitely a lot of things wrong with the country, no doubt. But you can't simply say a system is soley better because "more people don't get screwed over", can you? Because if you go by that logic, Capitalism is fucking terrible compared to Socialism, because nobody gets screwed over. Downside is that the drive for improvements is no longer as dominant, since the monetary issue is pretty much off the table. but, hey, at least nobody gets screwed over, right? And, yea, people get screwed over in the USA (and in Canada as well), it's just that it's more difficult to see, and it's not as severe. There are still people living on the streets, begging for meals in many cities in Canada..... EDIT - I think some people need to see this: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy.htmlHappyness != choice..... What's more important? Then why don't you move to North Korea? Because I have realized that I'm quite happy and content with where I am and what I have. Can't you be quiet happy and content also in North Korea? The government, will decide your decisions for you! You can take pride in working in the Gulags! And also the government will take away all that food you 'really don't need'. I can't see why you wouldn't want to go Socialism is better right? Did you even watch that TED talk I linked? Of course, I could drop out of university, book a ticket to China, find my way to the border and somehow get myself into NK and start begging on the streets if I wanted to. But look at the other option - I don't drop out, I get a degree, get a job, and live a decent life. Do I really have a choice? It's an illusion of choice. Sure, you can make a choice like "oh, I'll get a pizza instead of a burger", or something similar, but any main, important thing in your life is pretty much an illusion. Lotta info to get to a big point incoming: I was born into a household where both of my parents did not have university educations. My mother had taken some college courses, however. Both of my parents, nonetheless, had successful jobs. My mother decided to trade in her job to be a housewife at one point when I was younger. Because of the job she did have, I was exposed to computer systems at an age of 18 months. I've learned how to use computers to a decent level (nothing close to R1CH, he's a fucking god). I was also introduced to videogaming through computers. She also made sure that I was good in school, I was a straight A student (with the exception of any courses in French). Because my father was a very hands-on person, I learned a lot of stuff from him. He was also a high level chess player, and I used to play him a lot, and after a while, it became less about looking at individual moves, and looking at combinations, then it went to recognizing tempo, then it went to recognizing minute positional advantages, and then it started to become almost instinctual, I was able to simply remember situations and know what the best response was, without thinking about it. Both of my parents pretty much forced me into extracurricular activities. I was involved in learning the piano at one point, I played soccer, etc. I met some of my best friends through these things. I was born with a slight problem with my knees. The choices were either surgery (which was not 100% guaranteed to work, and was rather experimental at the time), braces like Forrest Gump had, or taking years of dance/gymnastics/martial arts to strengthen my legs to compensate for the problem. I studied ballet and martial arts for years (martial arts for a much longer period of time, I dropped ballet pretty quickly, probably for social reasons instead of me actually disliking it). My legs have been rediculously strong ever since. To the main point I'm getting at - Even in high school, when I "wanted" to play on the football team, there were so many factors going into it (several friends on the team, relatively good shape for my size, peer pressure, discipline and leg strength from martial arts, leg strength from ballet, strategy love from the years of chess, my years of studying hard allowing me to have a relatively easy time in high school which gave me free time for it, years of playing videogames allowing me to know how to get into "the zone" and focus completely at the task at hand, etc). Ultimately, I can't look back at it and simply think that it was merely my "choice", more like a logical culmination of many different events in my past led to that outcome. And I enjoyed it immensely, even though it really was an illusion of choice for me. My parents always worked hard at making sure I would be able to do better for myself than they were able to do for themselves. Going to a post-secondary education was definitely the result of that hard work. My parents (and many people I knew) figured I would go into engineering by the time I was 4 years old. Initially, they thought I'd be better in mechanical or robotics engineering because I used to always be good at building and programming robots and stuff, but I'm in Civil. There are even reasons for this (I worked for a construction company doing roadwork for a summer and was amazed at how quickly that stuff could be done, I worked for a landscaper for a summer and was fascinated by what he was able to do, I have family in the industry, I've always been around people who are good at doing renovations, in grade 2 I built a bridge as a school project that could hold my weight, etc). Even in University, my choice for being a frosh guide this year wasn't simply just me deciding to sign up without any influence on the reason - I've got several friends who are involved in our student society and plans the week (including a good friend of mine being the person who pretty much organized the week), I have these big-brother type instincts (thanks to having 3 much younger siblings, which I had to help raise when my dad passed away), memories of how awesome my frosh week was and obviously wanting to repeat it, etc..... I've realized for a long time that I am the sum of all my previous experiences - they shape who I am and who I will become. I'm totally fine with that. To me, the "free choice" people seem to love is just an illusion. Yeah, you totally have it as bad as the North Koreans, no choice whatsoever in your extra-curricular activities or fraternity. Dude, come on. Did I say I have it bad? I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation.
This is like some kind of mental calisthenics...
I think I understand what you are saying about people not needing freedom of choice to find happiness. You say choice is an illusion and I would argue that happiness is a frivolous pursuit anyway.
I think where people are taking issue is that you seem to redeem the NK system based on the seemingly happy hand-picked servants who get to participate in the dance routines. If this was reflective of general NK society, I think you would get more people on board. But to say the NK system is something that other societies could learn from, grievances notwithstanding, is preposterous. NK doesn't have "a few problems", it completely disregards the notion of human rights in measures far beyond the "freedom of choice" you take issue with.
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On November 25 2010 15:09 ZerglingSoup wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 14:42 Impervious wrote:
Did I say I have it bad?
I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation. This is like some kind of mental calisthenics... I think I understand what you are saying about people not needing freedom of choice to find happiness. You say choice is an illusion and I would argue that happiness is a frivolous pursuit anyway. I think where people are taking issue is that you seem to redeem the NK system based on the seemingly happy hand-picked servants who get to participate in the dance routines. If this was reflective of general NK society, I think you would get more people on board. But to say the NK system is something that other societies could learn from, grievances notwithstanding, is preposterous. NK doesn't have "a few problems", it completely disregards the notion of human rights in measures far beyond the "freedom of choice" you take issue with.
Point about the pursuit of happiness taken.
I wasn't looking at just the girls that were shown, i was intentionally paying more attention to the people who weren't in the spotlight. Specifically, I watched the part with the cooperative farm a couple of times.
Also, I said in my very first response in the thread:
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I bolded the key part. Specific things they do could be learned from. Not adopt the entire system (for so many obvious reasons that I don't even want to begin start listing them). But to disregard something they do right because of what they do wrong is really, really dumb.
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On November 25 2010 14:42 Impervious wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 14:36 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On November 25 2010 12:56 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 12:13 LSB wrote:On November 25 2010 12:04 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 12:00 LSB wrote:On November 25 2010 11:07 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 10:21 LSB wrote:On November 25 2010 10:14 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 09:50 LSB wrote:
[quote]
It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all.
If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown.
Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency. Are you truly free? Or has societal influences shaped your path so far? Really, really think hard about this. When you were younger, what did you do? Were you on any sports teams? What were your extracurricular activities? What were your hobbies? How good were your grades? Did you always do your homework? Did you discover any particular strengths and talents you had when you were younger? Did these somehow shape where you went later on in your life? If some of those things were different, would you be where you are now? Their type of system seems to take it one step further, that's all. They figure out which path you should be in (they described it as "peasant", "worker", and "intellectual"). From there, they probably figure out some particular strand you should be in, based on your strengths/weaknesses and talents, and this keeps going until they find something useful in society for you to do, regardless of what your strengths/weakness or skills are. It would put people in positions where they can be successful. And when you've been successful at something, you take pride in it. They may not have the same "freedom" that you have, but if they're happy, does it actually matter? I know you watched that documentary and saw the smiling kid doing her best to try to preform in front of the great leader. But what about those kids who don't want to be a gymnast? What about the peasants of dreams to go to school and live a good life? They have no choice. Sure you can get all ivory tower and question if free will actually exists. But the stark reality of repression is pretty depressing It wasn't just the smiling kid, it was the other people who were filmed as well. TBH, I payed more attention to what the adults said, and how they acted, more than her..... It shows what that type of society is capable of. Of course, starving your population is not a good practice..... I did say that there are some problems with the country (and that's a pretty big one). Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well..... Pointing out one fault in a system doesn't help, when other systems that you'd like to think are "better" still have that problem..... Capitalism = The Poor get screwed over Communism= Everyone but the rich and powerful gets screwed over. Overall, capitalism benefits far more people. Also, the poor in modern society has a chance for vertical social movement. NK they get a chance to work in the gulags. There are definitely a lot of things wrong with the country, no doubt. But you can't simply say a system is soley better because "more people don't get screwed over", can you? Because if you go by that logic, Capitalism is fucking terrible compared to Socialism, because nobody gets screwed over. Downside is that the drive for improvements is no longer as dominant, since the monetary issue is pretty much off the table. but, hey, at least nobody gets screwed over, right? And, yea, people get screwed over in the USA (and in Canada as well), it's just that it's more difficult to see, and it's not as severe. There are still people living on the streets, begging for meals in many cities in Canada..... EDIT - I think some people need to see this: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy.htmlHappyness != choice..... What's more important? Then why don't you move to North Korea? Because I have realized that I'm quite happy and content with where I am and what I have. Can't you be quiet happy and content also in North Korea? The government, will decide your decisions for you! You can take pride in working in the Gulags! And also the government will take away all that food you 'really don't need'. I can't see why you wouldn't want to go Socialism is better right? Did you even watch that TED talk I linked? Of course, I could drop out of university, book a ticket to China, find my way to the border and somehow get myself into NK and start begging on the streets if I wanted to. But look at the other option - I don't drop out, I get a degree, get a job, and live a decent life. Do I really have a choice? It's an illusion of choice. Sure, you can make a choice like "oh, I'll get a pizza instead of a burger", or something similar, but any main, important thing in your life is pretty much an illusion. Lotta info to get to a big point incoming: I was born into a household where both of my parents did not have university educations. My mother had taken some college courses, however. Both of my parents, nonetheless, had successful jobs. My mother decided to trade in her job to be a housewife at one point when I was younger. Because of the job she did have, I was exposed to computer systems at an age of 18 months. I've learned how to use computers to a decent level (nothing close to R1CH, he's a fucking god). I was also introduced to videogaming through computers. She also made sure that I was good in school, I was a straight A student (with the exception of any courses in French). Because my father was a very hands-on person, I learned a lot of stuff from him. He was also a high level chess player, and I used to play him a lot, and after a while, it became less about looking at individual moves, and looking at combinations, then it went to recognizing tempo, then it went to recognizing minute positional advantages, and then it started to become almost instinctual, I was able to simply remember situations and know what the best response was, without thinking about it. Both of my parents pretty much forced me into extracurricular activities. I was involved in learning the piano at one point, I played soccer, etc. I met some of my best friends through these things. I was born with a slight problem with my knees. The choices were either surgery (which was not 100% guaranteed to work, and was rather experimental at the time), braces like Forrest Gump had, or taking years of dance/gymnastics/martial arts to strengthen my legs to compensate for the problem. I studied ballet and martial arts for years (martial arts for a much longer period of time, I dropped ballet pretty quickly, probably for social reasons instead of me actually disliking it). My legs have been rediculously strong ever since. To the main point I'm getting at - Even in high school, when I "wanted" to play on the football team, there were so many factors going into it (several friends on the team, relatively good shape for my size, peer pressure, discipline and leg strength from martial arts, leg strength from ballet, strategy love from the years of chess, my years of studying hard allowing me to have a relatively easy time in high school which gave me free time for it, years of playing videogames allowing me to know how to get into "the zone" and focus completely at the task at hand, etc). Ultimately, I can't look back at it and simply think that it was merely my "choice", more like a logical culmination of many different events in my past led to that outcome. And I enjoyed it immensely, even though it really was an illusion of choice for me. My parents always worked hard at making sure I would be able to do better for myself than they were able to do for themselves. Going to a post-secondary education was definitely the result of that hard work. My parents (and many people I knew) figured I would go into engineering by the time I was 4 years old. Initially, they thought I'd be better in mechanical or robotics engineering because I used to always be good at building and programming robots and stuff, but I'm in Civil. There are even reasons for this (I worked for a construction company doing roadwork for a summer and was amazed at how quickly that stuff could be done, I worked for a landscaper for a summer and was fascinated by what he was able to do, I have family in the industry, I've always been around people who are good at doing renovations, in grade 2 I built a bridge as a school project that could hold my weight, etc). Even in University, my choice for being a frosh guide this year wasn't simply just me deciding to sign up without any influence on the reason - I've got several friends who are involved in our student society and plans the week (including a good friend of mine being the person who pretty much organized the week), I have these big-brother type instincts (thanks to having 3 much younger siblings, which I had to help raise when my dad passed away), memories of how awesome my frosh week was and obviously wanting to repeat it, etc..... I've realized for a long time that I am the sum of all my previous experiences - they shape who I am and who I will become. I'm totally fine with that. To me, the "free choice" people seem to love is just an illusion. Yeah, you totally have it as bad as the North Koreans, no choice whatsoever in your extra-curricular activities or fraternity. Dude, come on. Did I say I have it bad? I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation.
Okay, so maybe let's stop saying that the North Koreans are happy and it wouldn't matter if they had "the illusion of free choice".
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Korea (South)11573 Posts
On November 25 2010 12:56 Impervious wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 12:13 LSB wrote:On November 25 2010 12:04 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 12:00 LSB wrote:On November 25 2010 11:07 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 10:21 LSB wrote:On November 25 2010 10:14 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 09:50 LSB wrote:On November 25 2010 09:44 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 06:52 jpak wrote:Here's another good one (back in 2003) A State of Mind (look at related videos for other parts) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhAeli1DZRwit is a documentary about 2 NK girls preparing for the Arirang Mass Games. It's very revealing and, if u can see through the facade that the state is trying to present, very frightening. I just finished watching it, and took a few minutes to gather my thoughts, before replying to this. What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism..... I don't see a problem with their system (not that I prefer it over democracy, however). There are definitely several faults with the country, however. They have a leader that is more concerned with preserving his interests than bettering the individual and becoming more powerful as a group. Their devotion is centered around a hatred of the US (which is reasonable, since they were on the recieving end of US tech during their attempt at reunifying the country, and the leaders capitalized on that to unify the people's resolve in the tough times that followed). Everyone being cutoff from information from the rest of the world also hurts, since they will never know what is going on internationally, nor what has happened since the war, unless the leaders let them know about it (do they even know that the US put men on the moon, as an example of what I mean). While limiting public information is definitely a useful thing in some cases (lets face it, not many people are in the need to know about many things that happen, for security and safety reasons), NK seems to have taken it far too far. Being self-sufficient is definitely a desireable quality that any country should strive for, however, every country (for geographical, social, or other reasons) is better at some things than other, and trade between countries can help both involved, and being in a situation where there is next to no outside contact or trade definitely hurts the country. There is definitely a lot of room for improvement of NK. Then again, the same can be said for every country on earth, don't forget that. It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all. If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown. Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency. Are you truly free? Or has societal influences shaped your path so far? Really, really think hard about this. When you were younger, what did you do? Were you on any sports teams? What were your extracurricular activities? What were your hobbies? How good were your grades? Did you always do your homework? Did you discover any particular strengths and talents you had when you were younger? Did these somehow shape where you went later on in your life? If some of those things were different, would you be where you are now? Their type of system seems to take it one step further, that's all. They figure out which path you should be in (they described it as "peasant", "worker", and "intellectual"). From there, they probably figure out some particular strand you should be in, based on your strengths/weaknesses and talents, and this keeps going until they find something useful in society for you to do, regardless of what your strengths/weakness or skills are. It would put people in positions where they can be successful. And when you've been successful at something, you take pride in it. They may not have the same "freedom" that you have, but if they're happy, does it actually matter? I know you watched that documentary and saw the smiling kid doing her best to try to preform in front of the great leader. But what about those kids who don't want to be a gymnast? What about the peasants of dreams to go to school and live a good life? They have no choice. Sure you can get all ivory tower and question if free will actually exists. But the stark reality of repression is pretty depressing It wasn't just the smiling kid, it was the other people who were filmed as well. TBH, I payed more attention to what the adults said, and how they acted, more than her..... It shows what that type of society is capable of. Of course, starving your population is not a good practice..... I did say that there are some problems with the country (and that's a pretty big one). Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well..... Pointing out one fault in a system doesn't help, when other systems that you'd like to think are "better" still have that problem..... Capitalism = The Poor get screwed over Communism= Everyone but the rich and powerful gets screwed over. Overall, capitalism benefits far more people. Also, the poor in modern society has a chance for vertical social movement. NK they get a chance to work in the gulags. There are definitely a lot of things wrong with the country, no doubt. But you can't simply say a system is soley better because "more people don't get screwed over", can you? Because if you go by that logic, Capitalism is fucking terrible compared to Socialism, because nobody gets screwed over. Downside is that the drive for improvements is no longer as dominant, since the monetary issue is pretty much off the table. but, hey, at least nobody gets screwed over, right? And, yea, people get screwed over in the USA (and in Canada as well), it's just that it's more difficult to see, and it's not as severe. There are still people living on the streets, begging for meals in many cities in Canada..... EDIT - I think some people need to see this: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy.htmlHappyness != choice..... What's more important? Then why don't you move to North Korea? Because I have realized that I'm quite happy and content with where I am and what I have. Can't you be quiet happy and content also in North Korea? The government, will decide your decisions for you! You can take pride in working in the Gulags! And also the government will take away all that food you 'really don't need'. I can't see why you wouldn't want to go Socialism is better right? Did you even watch that TED talk I linked? Of course, I could drop out of university, book a ticket to China, find my way to the border and somehow get myself into NK and start begging on the streets if I wanted to. But look at the other option - I don't drop out, I get a degree, get a job, and live a decent life. Do I really have a choice? It's an illusion of choice. Sure, you can make a choice like "oh, I'll get a pizza instead of a burger", or something similar, but any main, important thing in your life is pretty much an illusion. Lotta info to get to a big point incoming: I was born into a household where both of my parents did not have university educations. My mother had taken some college courses, however. Both of my parents, nonetheless, had successful jobs. My mother decided to trade in her job to be a housewife at one point when I was younger. Because of the job she did have, I was exposed to computer systems at an age of 18 months. I've learned how to use computers to a decent level (nothing close to R1CH, he's a fucking god). I was also introduced to videogaming through computers. She also made sure that I was good in school, I was a straight A student (with the exception of any courses in French). Because my father was a very hands-on person, I learned a lot of stuff from him. He was also a high level chess player, and I used to play him a lot, and after a while, it became less about looking at individual moves, and looking at combinations, then it went to recognizing tempo, then it went to recognizing minute positional advantages, and then it started to become almost instinctual, I was able to simply remember situations and know what the best response was, without thinking about it. Both of my parents pretty much forced me into extracurricular activities. I was involved in learning the piano at one point, I played soccer, etc. I met some of my best friends through these things. I was born with a slight problem with my knees. The choices were either surgery (which was not 100% guaranteed to work, and was rather experimental at the time), braces like Forrest Gump had, or taking years of dance/gymnastics/martial arts to strengthen my legs to compensate for the problem. I studied ballet and martial arts for years (martial arts for a much longer period of time, I dropped ballet pretty quickly, probably for social reasons instead of me actually disliking it). My legs have been rediculously strong ever since. To the main point I'm getting at - Even in high school, when I "wanted" to play on the football team, there were so many factors going into it (several friends on the team, relatively good shape for my size, peer pressure, discipline and leg strength from martial arts, leg strength from ballet, strategy love from the years of chess, my years of studying hard allowing me to have a relatively easy time in high school which gave me free time for it, years of playing videogames allowing me to know how to get into "the zone" and focus completely at the task at hand, etc). Ultimately, I can't look back at it and simply think that it was merely my "choice", more like a logical culmination of many different events in my past led to that outcome. And I enjoyed it immensely, even though it really was an illusion of choice for me. My parents always worked hard at making sure I would be able to do better for myself than they were able to do for themselves. Going to a post-secondary education was definitely the result of that hard work. My parents (and many people I knew) figured I would go into engineering by the time I was 4 years old. Initially, they thought I'd be better in mechanical or robotics engineering because I used to always be good at building and programming robots and stuff, but I'm in Civil. There are even reasons for this (I worked for a construction company doing roadwork for a summer and was amazed at how quickly that stuff could be done, I worked for a landscaper for a summer and was fascinated by what he was able to do, I have family in the industry, I've always been around people who are good at doing renovations, in grade 2 I built a bridge as a school project that could hold my weight, etc). Even in University, my choice for being a frosh guide this year wasn't simply just me deciding to sign up without any influence on the reason - I've got several friends who are involved in our student society and plans the week (including a good friend of mine being the person who pretty much organized the week), I have these big-brother type instincts (thanks to having 3 much younger siblings, which I had to help raise when my dad passed away), memories of how awesome my frosh week was and obviously wanting to repeat it, etc..... I've realized for a long time that I am the sum of all my previous experiences - they shape who I am and who I will become. I'm totally fine with that. To me, the "free choice" people seem to love is just an illusion.
This has nothing to do with the point of this thread. The point of the thread was created to show us how horribly misguided we are about the way life in North Korea is. You continue to babble about free choice and how all we are is based on out experiences. How our choices are made from previous experiences we have had.
Congratulations. You have a working mind. You are now knowledgeable as to what you are. You are remnants from a supernova exploding X amount of billion years ago. You are the combination of comets, and gas solidified through billions of years, mutated over millions of generations. You are nothing worth while, as you and me are made from the same star. Both of our thoughts are made from chemical and electrical reactions in our tiny minds. But if you want to talk about that, then take it to another thread. Ok?
Once again, this thread is about North Korea, and how underpriveledged they are to suffer their entire existence under the totalitarian regime of the Peoples Republic of Korea. Where they are forever to be tortured, their children are to starve, and their wives to be trafficked.
This is about how ignorant the world is to North Korea, the most secretive state in the world. North Korea has committed 11 crimes against humanity including: murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation/forcible transportation of people, rape, sexual slavery, persecution, enforced disappearance of people, and others.
On top of that, all of the fertile land in North Korea which can be used to grow edible food to feed the country, and take care of their starvation issue, is used to grow opium. North Korea is one of the largest countries to export opiates used to create drugs all around the world.
You have concentration camps, 10x worse than those during the Nazi regime in World War II.
However, very few people are aware of just how bad it is in North Korea. If you say something against the government you are punished by death. North Korea even has a law if you THINK poorly about the government, even if you do not act upon these thoughts you will be punished by death.
There are no freedoms in north korea. There is no freedom of speech. There is no freedom of the press. There is no worker's rights, or freedom of religion. You are not allowed to move houses or visit family without approval of the government.
North Korea is in dire need from people all around the world. 300,000 North Korean refugees are hiding illegally on the eastern shore of China. There are children whose families have died and are living in the sewers of China, fearing deportation.
You have it nice. Without the internet for a month we would go crazy. Imagine not having a bite of food to eat for a month, while being tortured or chained in an abandoned building.
The least you can do is help other people know of the terrible conditions these underprivileged people who don't have any human rights, so one day things can change.
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On November 25 2010 15:29 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 14:42 Impervious wrote:
Did I say I have it bad?
I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation. Okay, so maybe let's stop saying that the North Koreans are happy and it wouldn't matter if they had "the illusion of free choice".
Ok. This started with "totalitarian government gets rid of choice".
I then say "happiness is not directly related to choice (and there is evidence to this claim, some cases even show an inverse relationship), which is more important?".
Nobody answers this, instead a tangent about choice ensues.
All of a sudden you claim that I said North Koreans are happy and it wouldn't matter if they had the illusion of free choie?
In the USA, something like 90% of the money is in the hands of the top 10% of people. That's a pretty massive "elite", within the country. It seems to be pretty similar in NK, except the country as a whole is dirt fucking poor, so even though the "elite" look bad, the bottom look fucking terrible, and has a government that is really, really corrupt, pretty much controlled by the military, and only really concerned with preserving it's own interests at the expense of the people.
However, it still shows what can be achieved by that type of society. The people can still be happy with their lives, even without the freedoms that others enjoy. Hypothetically, if you could live and die either free and unhappy, or controlled but happy, what would you choose?
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On November 25 2010 15:28 Impervious wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 15:09 ZerglingSoup wrote:On November 25 2010 14:42 Impervious wrote:
Did I say I have it bad?
I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation. This is like some kind of mental calisthenics... I think I understand what you are saying about people not needing freedom of choice to find happiness. You say choice is an illusion and I would argue that happiness is a frivolous pursuit anyway. I think where people are taking issue is that you seem to redeem the NK system based on the seemingly happy hand-picked servants who get to participate in the dance routines. If this was reflective of general NK society, I think you would get more people on board. But to say the NK system is something that other societies could learn from, grievances notwithstanding, is preposterous. NK doesn't have "a few problems", it completely disregards the notion of human rights in measures far beyond the "freedom of choice" you take issue with. Point about the pursuit of happiness taken. I wasn't looking at just the girls that were shown, i was intentionally paying more attention to the people who weren't in the spotlight. Specifically, I watched the part with the cooperative farm a couple of times. Also, I said in my very first response in the thread: Show nested quote +What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism..... I bolded the key part. Specific things they do could be learned from. Not adopt the entire system (for so many obvious reasons that I don't even want to begin start listing them). But to disregard something they do right because of what they do wrong is really, really dumb.
Taking your quote. Those are nice things you listed, but I could learn them from Germany if I needed the lesson. So while it may be a valid observation in absolution, it's certainly extraneous in a discussion about the merits of the North Korean system, where little concern is given as to whether or not people are content.
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On November 25 2010 15:53 CaucasianAsian wrote:
Once again, this thread is about North Korea, and how underpriveledged they are to suffer their entire existence under the totalitarian regime of the Peoples Republic of Korea. Where they are forever to be tortured, their children are to starve, and their wives to be trafficked.
This is about how ignorant the world is to North Korea, the most secretive state in the world. North Korea has committed 11 crimes against humanity including: murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation/forcible transportation of people, rape, sexual slavery, persecution, enforced disappearance of people, and others.
It's gotta be a lot higher than 11..... Why the UN hasn't done anything more severe about it is beyond me.....
On top of that, all of the fertile land in North Korea which can be used to grow edible food to feed the country, and take care of their starvation issue, is used to grow opium. North Korea is one of the largest countries to export opiates used to create drugs all around the world.
You have concentration camps, 10x worse than those during the Nazi regime in World War II.
Don't forget that it's caused by a massively corrupt government which only cares about its own interests, and it was created in part by the actions of both sides of the cold war. It's a fucking shame.
However, very few people are aware of just how bad it is in North Korea. If you say something against the government you are punished by death. North Korea even has a law if you THINK poorly about the government, even if you do not act upon these thoughts you will be punished by death.
There are no freedoms in north korea. There is no freedom of speech. There is no freedom of the press. There is no worker's rights, or freedom of religion. You are not allowed to move houses or visit family without approval of the government.
North Korea is in dire need from people all around the world. 300,000 North Korean refugees are hiding illegally on the eastern shore of China. There are children whose families have died and are living in the sewers of China, fearing deportation.
You have it nice. Without the internet for a month we would go crazy. Imagine not having a bite of food to eat for a month, while being tortured or chained in an abandoned building.
The least you can do is help other people know of the terrible conditions these underprivileged people who don't have any human rights, so one day things can change.
And not learning anything from the society that created these atrocious situations would basically condemn those people to dying in vain.
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On November 25 2010 16:16 ZerglingSoup wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 15:28 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 15:09 ZerglingSoup wrote:On November 25 2010 14:42 Impervious wrote:
Did I say I have it bad?
I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation. This is like some kind of mental calisthenics... I think I understand what you are saying about people not needing freedom of choice to find happiness. You say choice is an illusion and I would argue that happiness is a frivolous pursuit anyway. I think where people are taking issue is that you seem to redeem the NK system based on the seemingly happy hand-picked servants who get to participate in the dance routines. If this was reflective of general NK society, I think you would get more people on board. But to say the NK system is something that other societies could learn from, grievances notwithstanding, is preposterous. NK doesn't have "a few problems", it completely disregards the notion of human rights in measures far beyond the "freedom of choice" you take issue with. Point about the pursuit of happiness taken. I wasn't looking at just the girls that were shown, i was intentionally paying more attention to the people who weren't in the spotlight. Specifically, I watched the part with the cooperative farm a couple of times. Also, I said in my very first response in the thread: What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism..... I bolded the key part. Specific things they do could be learned from. Not adopt the entire system (for so many obvious reasons that I don't even want to begin start listing them). But to disregard something they do right because of what they do wrong is really, really dumb. Taking your quote. Those are nice things you listed, but I could learn them from Germany if I needed the lesson. So while it may be a valid observation in absolution, it's certainly extraneous in a discussion about the merits of the North Korean system, where little concern is given as to whether or not people are content.
It's true, other totalitarian regimes have had similar positives to them. Maybe there's a reason for it, and it should be studied rather than outright dismissed? What is it that gets people to work together better than in a capitalist society (which would increase the production capacity of a society)? What is it that allows them to be happy/content with much worse living conditions than would be acceptable in other societies, and is it possible to make people happier with what they have (possibly reducing depression and increasing the percieved standard of living)? Is it possible to instill discipline to the average person (which should reduce crime rates and decrease costs associated to the legal system, policing, penal systems, etc) in other types of societies by using similar techniques? Etc.....
Germany was an excellent example of this. Far better than NK is. But that's another topic.
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On November 25 2010 16:01 Impervious wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 15:29 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On November 25 2010 14:42 Impervious wrote:
Did I say I have it bad?
I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation. Okay, so maybe let's stop saying that the North Koreans are happy and it wouldn't matter if they had "the illusion of free choice". Ok. This started with "totalitarian government gets rid of choice". I then say "happiness is not directly related to choice (and there is evidence to this claim, some cases even show an inverse relationship), which is more important?". Nobody answers this, instead a tangent about choice ensues. All of a sudden you claim that I said North Koreans are happy and it wouldn't matter if they had the illusion of free choie?In the USA, something like 90% of the money is in the hands of the top 10% of people. That's a pretty massive "elite", within the country. It seems to be pretty similar in NK, except the country as a whole is dirt fucking poor, so even though the "elite" look bad, the bottom look fucking terrible, and has a government that is really, really corrupt, pretty much controlled by the military, and only really concerned with preserving it's own interests at the expense of the people. However, it still shows what can be achieved by that type of society. The people can still be happy with their lives, even without the freedoms that others enjoy. Hypothetically, if you could live and die either free and unhappy, or controlled but happy, what would you choose?
What part of North Korea's situation makes you think any of their citizens are happy? Do you not understand that in a STATE SPONSORED TOUR they will not show you torture, starvation, rape and poverty? Do you think these people would be "happy" if they were not chosen to represent North Korea to foreigners?
Please stop subverting this thread in an attempt to "win it". None of us care about hypotheticals or theoreticals or anything you learned in your sociology and political science courses. This is about North Korea having living conditions which are a humanitarian catastrophe and you are skirting this basic issue by focusing on the idea that choice doesn't make us happy and sociology 101 concepts like the 90/10 phenomenon.
[edit] Also, I'm removing myself from this thread. [/edit]
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On November 25 2010 16:32 Impervious wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 16:16 ZerglingSoup wrote:On November 25 2010 15:28 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 15:09 ZerglingSoup wrote:On November 25 2010 14:42 Impervious wrote:
Did I say I have it bad?
I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation. This is like some kind of mental calisthenics... I think I understand what you are saying about people not needing freedom of choice to find happiness. You say choice is an illusion and I would argue that happiness is a frivolous pursuit anyway. I think where people are taking issue is that you seem to redeem the NK system based on the seemingly happy hand-picked servants who get to participate in the dance routines. If this was reflective of general NK society, I think you would get more people on board. But to say the NK system is something that other societies could learn from, grievances notwithstanding, is preposterous. NK doesn't have "a few problems", it completely disregards the notion of human rights in measures far beyond the "freedom of choice" you take issue with. Point about the pursuit of happiness taken. I wasn't looking at just the girls that were shown, i was intentionally paying more attention to the people who weren't in the spotlight. Specifically, I watched the part with the cooperative farm a couple of times. Also, I said in my very first response in the thread: What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism..... I bolded the key part. Specific things they do could be learned from. Not adopt the entire system (for so many obvious reasons that I don't even want to begin start listing them). But to disregard something they do right because of what they do wrong is really, really dumb. Taking your quote. Those are nice things you listed, but I could learn them from Germany if I needed the lesson. So while it may be a valid observation in absolution, it's certainly extraneous in a discussion about the merits of the North Korean system, where little concern is given as to whether or not people are content. It's true, other totalitarian regimes have had similar positives to them. Maybe there's a reason for it, and it should be studied rather than outright dismissed? What is it that gets people to work together better than in a capitalist society (which would increase the production capacity of a society)? What is it that allows them to be happy/content with much worse living conditions than would be acceptable in other societies, and is it possible to make people happier with what they have (possibly reducing depression and increasing the percieved standard of living)? Is it possible to instill discipline to the average person (which should reduce crime rates and decrease costs associated to the legal system, policing, penal systems, etc) in other types of societies by using similar techniques? Etc..... Germany was an excellent example of this. Far better than NK is. But that's another topic.
I meant modern-day Germany. And I would posture a rather short study would reveal that the very elements that lead to a minority being happy/content in an "efficient" system like North Koreas are causing much more misery for many more people. I won't dismiss it because it's of a certain political persuasion. I will dismiss it because it's cruel and reckless.
These "positives" you listed are features of individuals' attitudes, not political systems- and they can either be forced on people by a totalitarian government, or they can be nurtured and honored in a free society. Either way, I maintain that it bears no testament to the value of the North Korean political system.
Certainly you can and should "learn" from anything new or different that is put in front of you. That doesn't mean what you are learning from has anything good to offer.
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Wow. Crazy.
I like this show. Is this the first episode? I couldn't find anything on youtube.
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On November 25 2010 16:36 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 16:01 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 15:29 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On November 25 2010 14:42 Impervious wrote:
Did I say I have it bad?
I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation. Okay, so maybe let's stop saying that the North Koreans are happy and it wouldn't matter if they had "the illusion of free choice". Ok. This started with "totalitarian government gets rid of choice". I then say "happiness is not directly related to choice (and there is evidence to this claim, some cases even show an inverse relationship), which is more important?". Nobody answers this, instead a tangent about choice ensues. All of a sudden you claim that I said North Koreans are happy and it wouldn't matter if they had the illusion of free choie?In the USA, something like 90% of the money is in the hands of the top 10% of people. That's a pretty massive "elite", within the country. It seems to be pretty similar in NK, except the country as a whole is dirt fucking poor, so even though the "elite" look bad, the bottom look fucking terrible, and has a government that is really, really corrupt, pretty much controlled by the military, and only really concerned with preserving it's own interests at the expense of the people. However, it still shows what can be achieved by that type of society. The people can still be happy with their lives, even without the freedoms that others enjoy. Hypothetically, if you could live and die either free and unhappy, or controlled but happy, what would you choose? What part of North Korea's situation makes you think any of their citizens are happy? Do you not understand that in a STATE SPONSORED TOUR they will not show you torture, starvation, rape and poverty? Do you think these people would be "happy" if they were not chosen to represent North Korea to foreigners? Please stop subverting this thread in an attempt to "win it". None of us care about hypotheticals or theoreticals or anything you learned in your sociology and political science courses. This is about North Korea having living conditions which are a humanitarian catastrophe and you are skirting this basic issue by focusing on the idea that choice doesn't make us happy and sociology 101 concepts like the 90/10 phenomenon. [edit] Also, I'm removing myself from this thread. [/edit]
Agreed. There are a multitude of far less sensitive, disturbing, and all round despicable issues that you could use to make your abstract philosophy argument. I find your comments in bad taste.
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Impervious stop hijacking this thread with your idiotic rambling. The discussion is about North Korea not about your philosophical inquiry of free will as CaucasianAsian explained.
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On November 25 2010 16:32 Impervious wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 16:16 ZerglingSoup wrote:On November 25 2010 15:28 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 15:09 ZerglingSoup wrote:On November 25 2010 14:42 Impervious wrote:
Did I say I have it bad?
I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation. This is like some kind of mental calisthenics... I think I understand what you are saying about people not needing freedom of choice to find happiness. You say choice is an illusion and I would argue that happiness is a frivolous pursuit anyway. I think where people are taking issue is that you seem to redeem the NK system based on the seemingly happy hand-picked servants who get to participate in the dance routines. If this was reflective of general NK society, I think you would get more people on board. But to say the NK system is something that other societies could learn from, grievances notwithstanding, is preposterous. NK doesn't have "a few problems", it completely disregards the notion of human rights in measures far beyond the "freedom of choice" you take issue with. Point about the pursuit of happiness taken. I wasn't looking at just the girls that were shown, i was intentionally paying more attention to the people who weren't in the spotlight. Specifically, I watched the part with the cooperative farm a couple of times. Also, I said in my very first response in the thread: What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism..... I bolded the key part. Specific things they do could be learned from. Not adopt the entire system (for so many obvious reasons that I don't even want to begin start listing them). But to disregard something they do right because of what they do wrong is really, really dumb. Taking your quote. Those are nice things you listed, but I could learn them from Germany if I needed the lesson. So while it may be a valid observation in absolution, it's certainly extraneous in a discussion about the merits of the North Korean system, where little concern is given as to whether or not people are content. It's true, other totalitarian regimes have had similar positives to them. Maybe there's a reason for it, and it should be studied rather than outright dismissed? What is it that gets people to work together better than in a capitalist society (which would increase the production capacity of a society)? What is it that allows them to be happy/content with much worse living conditions than would be acceptable in other societies, and is it possible to make people happier with what they have (possibly reducing depression and increasing the percieved standard of living)? Is it possible to instill discipline to the average person (which should reduce crime rates and decrease costs associated to the legal system, policing, penal systems, etc) in other types of societies by using similar techniques? Etc..... Germany was an excellent example of this. Far better than NK is. But that's another topic.
I find the reason to be quite obvious and along with violation of human rights, it's something all those regimes have in common, propaganda. The idea that their state/leader/race is so glorious gets implemanted into their head from childs age. They simply don't know any better, that's how the world is to them. Those videos were actualy about that anyway,
I don't know what to say really, I would have called you out on trolling after your first post, but you kept that up pretty long. How can you think that suppression, even if it can cause happiness under worse circumstances is in any way justifiable?
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On November 25 2010 18:12 Gnial wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 16:36 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On November 25 2010 16:01 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 15:29 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On November 25 2010 14:42 Impervious wrote:
Did I say I have it bad?
I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation. Okay, so maybe let's stop saying that the North Koreans are happy and it wouldn't matter if they had "the illusion of free choice". Ok. This started with "totalitarian government gets rid of choice". I then say "happiness is not directly related to choice (and there is evidence to this claim, some cases even show an inverse relationship), which is more important?". Nobody answers this, instead a tangent about choice ensues. All of a sudden you claim that I said North Koreans are happy and it wouldn't matter if they had the illusion of free choie?In the USA, something like 90% of the money is in the hands of the top 10% of people. That's a pretty massive "elite", within the country. It seems to be pretty similar in NK, except the country as a whole is dirt fucking poor, so even though the "elite" look bad, the bottom look fucking terrible, and has a government that is really, really corrupt, pretty much controlled by the military, and only really concerned with preserving it's own interests at the expense of the people. However, it still shows what can be achieved by that type of society. The people can still be happy with their lives, even without the freedoms that others enjoy. Hypothetically, if you could live and die either free and unhappy, or controlled but happy, what would you choose? What part of North Korea's situation makes you think any of their citizens are happy? Do you not understand that in a STATE SPONSORED TOUR they will not show you torture, starvation, rape and poverty? Do you think these people would be "happy" if they were not chosen to represent North Korea to foreigners? Please stop subverting this thread in an attempt to "win it". None of us care about hypotheticals or theoreticals or anything you learned in your sociology and political science courses. This is about North Korea having living conditions which are a humanitarian catastrophe and you are skirting this basic issue by focusing on the idea that choice doesn't make us happy and sociology 101 concepts like the 90/10 phenomenon. [edit] Also, I'm removing myself from this thread. [/edit] Agreed. There are a multitude of far less sensitive, disturbing, and all round despicable issues that you could use to make your abstract philosophy argument. I find your comments in bad taste.
Is that from a knee-jerk reaction to what you saw? Or did you actually think about it?
Because, clearly, when I point out that they do seem to do some things right, it means that I think their situation is completely acceptable.
+ Show Spoiler +We seriously need a sarcasm font, in case people don't realize it when they read it.
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On November 25 2010 12:56 Impervious wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 12:13 LSB wrote:On November 25 2010 12:04 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 12:00 LSB wrote:On November 25 2010 11:07 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 10:21 LSB wrote:On November 25 2010 10:14 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 09:50 LSB wrote:On November 25 2010 09:44 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 06:52 jpak wrote:Here's another good one (back in 2003) A State of Mind (look at related videos for other parts) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhAeli1DZRwit is a documentary about 2 NK girls preparing for the Arirang Mass Games. It's very revealing and, if u can see through the facade that the state is trying to present, very frightening. I just finished watching it, and took a few minutes to gather my thoughts, before replying to this. What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism..... I don't see a problem with their system (not that I prefer it over democracy, however). There are definitely several faults with the country, however. They have a leader that is more concerned with preserving his interests than bettering the individual and becoming more powerful as a group. Their devotion is centered around a hatred of the US (which is reasonable, since they were on the recieving end of US tech during their attempt at reunifying the country, and the leaders capitalized on that to unify the people's resolve in the tough times that followed). Everyone being cutoff from information from the rest of the world also hurts, since they will never know what is going on internationally, nor what has happened since the war, unless the leaders let them know about it (do they even know that the US put men on the moon, as an example of what I mean). While limiting public information is definitely a useful thing in some cases (lets face it, not many people are in the need to know about many things that happen, for security and safety reasons), NK seems to have taken it far too far. Being self-sufficient is definitely a desireable quality that any country should strive for, however, every country (for geographical, social, or other reasons) is better at some things than other, and trade between countries can help both involved, and being in a situation where there is next to no outside contact or trade definitely hurts the country. There is definitely a lot of room for improvement of NK. Then again, the same can be said for every country on earth, don't forget that. It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all. If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown. Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency. Are you truly free? Or has societal influences shaped your path so far? Really, really think hard about this. When you were younger, what did you do? Were you on any sports teams? What were your extracurricular activities? What were your hobbies? How good were your grades? Did you always do your homework? Did you discover any particular strengths and talents you had when you were younger? Did these somehow shape where you went later on in your life? If some of those things were different, would you be where you are now? Their type of system seems to take it one step further, that's all. They figure out which path you should be in (they described it as "peasant", "worker", and "intellectual"). From there, they probably figure out some particular strand you should be in, based on your strengths/weaknesses and talents, and this keeps going until they find something useful in society for you to do, regardless of what your strengths/weakness or skills are. It would put people in positions where they can be successful. And when you've been successful at something, you take pride in it. They may not have the same "freedom" that you have, but if they're happy, does it actually matter? I know you watched that documentary and saw the smiling kid doing her best to try to preform in front of the great leader. But what about those kids who don't want to be a gymnast? What about the peasants of dreams to go to school and live a good life? They have no choice. Sure you can get all ivory tower and question if free will actually exists. But the stark reality of repression is pretty depressing It wasn't just the smiling kid, it was the other people who were filmed as well. TBH, I payed more attention to what the adults said, and how they acted, more than her..... It shows what that type of society is capable of. Of course, starving your population is not a good practice..... I did say that there are some problems with the country (and that's a pretty big one). Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well..... Pointing out one fault in a system doesn't help, when other systems that you'd like to think are "better" still have that problem..... Capitalism = The Poor get screwed over Communism= Everyone but the rich and powerful gets screwed over. Overall, capitalism benefits far more people. Also, the poor in modern society has a chance for vertical social movement. NK they get a chance to work in the gulags. There are definitely a lot of things wrong with the country, no doubt. But you can't simply say a system is soley better because "more people don't get screwed over", can you? Because if you go by that logic, Capitalism is fucking terrible compared to Socialism, because nobody gets screwed over. Downside is that the drive for improvements is no longer as dominant, since the monetary issue is pretty much off the table. but, hey, at least nobody gets screwed over, right? And, yea, people get screwed over in the USA (and in Canada as well), it's just that it's more difficult to see, and it's not as severe. There are still people living on the streets, begging for meals in many cities in Canada..... EDIT - I think some people need to see this: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy.htmlHappyness != choice..... What's more important? Then why don't you move to North Korea? Because I have realized that I'm quite happy and content with where I am and what I have. Can't you be quiet happy and content also in North Korea? The government, will decide your decisions for you! You can take pride in working in the Gulags! And also the government will take away all that food you 'really don't need'. I can't see why you wouldn't want to go Socialism is better right? Did you even watch that TED talk I linked? Of course, I could drop out of university, book a ticket to China, find my way to the border and somehow get myself into NK and start begging on the streets if I wanted to. But look at the other option - I don't drop out, I get a degree, get a job, and live a decent life. Do I really have a choice? It's an illusion of choice. Sure, you can make a choice like "oh, I'll get a pizza instead of a burger", or something similar, but any main, important thing in your life is pretty much an illusion. Lotta info to get to a big point incoming: I was born into a household where both of my parents did not have university educations. My mother had taken some college courses, however. Both of my parents, nonetheless, had successful jobs. My mother decided to trade in her job to be a housewife at one point when I was younger. Because of the job she did have, I was exposed to computer systems at an age of 18 months. I've learned how to use computers to a decent level (nothing close to R1CH, he's a fucking god). I was also introduced to videogaming through computers. She also made sure that I was good in school, I was a straight A student (with the exception of any courses in French). Because my father was a very hands-on person, I learned a lot of stuff from him. He was also a high level chess player, and I used to play him a lot, and after a while, it became less about looking at individual moves, and looking at combinations, then it went to recognizing tempo, then it went to recognizing minute positional advantages, and then it started to become almost instinctual, I was able to simply remember situations and know what the best response was, without thinking about it. Both of my parents pretty much forced me into extracurricular activities. I was involved in learning the piano at one point, I played soccer, etc. I met some of my best friends through these things. I was born with a slight problem with my knees. The choices were either surgery (which was not 100% guaranteed to work, and was rather experimental at the time), braces like Forrest Gump had, or taking years of dance/gymnastics/martial arts to strengthen my legs to compensate for the problem. I studied ballet and martial arts for years (martial arts for a much longer period of time, I dropped ballet pretty quickly, probably for social reasons instead of me actually disliking it). My legs have been rediculously strong ever since. To the main point I'm getting at - Even in high school, when I "wanted" to play on the football team, there were so many factors going into it (several friends on the team, relatively good shape for my size, peer pressure, discipline and leg strength from martial arts, leg strength from ballet, strategy love from the years of chess, my years of studying hard allowing me to have a relatively easy time in high school which gave me free time for it, years of playing videogames allowing me to know how to get into "the zone" and focus completely at the task at hand, etc). Ultimately, I can't look back at it and simply think that it was merely my "choice", more like a logical culmination of many different events in my past led to that outcome. And I enjoyed it immensely, even though it really was an illusion of choice for me. My parents always worked hard at making sure I would be able to do better for myself than they were able to do for themselves. Going to a post-secondary education was definitely the result of that hard work. My parents (and many people I knew) figured I would go into engineering by the time I was 4 years old. Initially, they thought I'd be better in mechanical or robotics engineering because I used to always be good at building and programming robots and stuff, but I'm in Civil. There are even reasons for this (I worked for a construction company doing roadwork for a summer and was amazed at how quickly that stuff could be done, I worked for a landscaper for a summer and was fascinated by what he was able to do, I have family in the industry, I've always been around people who are good at doing renovations, in grade 2 I built a bridge as a school project that could hold my weight, etc). Even in University, my choice for being a frosh guide this year wasn't simply just me deciding to sign up without any influence on the reason - I've got several friends who are involved in our student society and plans the week (including a good friend of mine being the person who pretty much organized the week), I have these big-brother type instincts (thanks to having 3 much younger siblings, which I had to help raise when my dad passed away), memories of how awesome my frosh week was and obviously wanting to repeat it, etc..... I've realized for a long time that I am the sum of all my previous experiences - they shape who I am and who I will become. I'm totally fine with that. To me, the "free choice" people seem to love is just an illusion.
Ok dude nice writing, you could write a blog. Anyways i think it's bullshit, because you can choose what to do and then it will shape you based on experiences you get from it. Let's say i decide to move to Africa now blah blah.. it will shape my person differently than living in Europe, so basically i can choose if i want to live european life-style or go to remote farm in africa and take care of the animals there. North Koreans are far far far away from any similar decision possibility.
My personal opinion is that you can do and become whatever you want, achievement boundary is almost not limited.... as long as you work hard on it and give it all you can. Another condition is that you need to have the freedom to actually choose the way you want to go, which you certainly don't have in North Korea.
Seems to me that many people here can't even imagine how is it like over there....we used to be communist country and let's say you couldn't do shit unless you were in the communist party. Any private property was taken away and if your parents had any record like being in some demonstration or any anti-party movement, capitalistic ideas or stuff - you had no chance to get education or any decent job. Well if i compare it to the options i have nowadays, i can certainly say choice is not an illusion, it is pretty damned real !
North Korea is like 100 times worse than anything i have described. The kid has no choice at all since it is born. Not even damn choice what to learn, they are tought only the propaganda and pro-communistic, koran ideas. I can choose what i want to study and learn and that i think is...as you called it... main, important thing in my life that shapes my individuality.
EDIT: thanks Caucasianasian, you described it much more detailed. I just wanted to say that people have no idea how bad the regime can be...By the way if a person commits crime (believe me that every little shit you do every day is considered crime in N.Korea), 3 generations from that person's family are punished...3 freaking generations. No wonder people do all the ridiculous shit you see in the documents and obey the leader absolutely.
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On November 25 2010 16:01 Impervious wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 15:29 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On November 25 2010 14:42 Impervious wrote:
Did I say I have it bad?
I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation. Okay, so maybe let's stop saying that the North Koreans are happy and it wouldn't matter if they had "the illusion of free choice". Ok. This started with "totalitarian government gets rid of choice". I then say "happiness is not directly related to choice (and there is evidence to this claim, some cases even show an inverse relationship), which is more important?". Nobody answers this, instead a tangent about choice ensues. All of a sudden you claim that I said North Koreans are happy and it wouldn't matter if they had the illusion of free choie? In the USA, something like 90% of the money is in the hands of the top 10% of people. That's a pretty massive "elite", within the country. It seems to be pretty similar in NK, except the country as a whole is dirt fucking poor, so even though the "elite" look bad, the bottom look fucking terrible, and has a government that is really, really corrupt, pretty much controlled by the military, and only really concerned with preserving it's own interests at the expense of the people. However, it still shows what can be achieved by that type of society. The people can still be happy with their lives, even without the freedoms that others enjoy. Hypothetically, if you could live and die either free and unhappy, or controlled but happy, what would you choose?
Man you just have no fucking idea what are you talking about so just stop please. In North Korea, the wealth is held by about 0,1% of people, probably even less and everybody else is almost a slave which has to do everything they are told or they are put into the worst prison on Earth. Those people are not happy at all, they just have no other choice. If you watched few documents and watched faces of people, or see any people on the streets other than the guides or officers, you could tell they are miserable.
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On November 25 2010 14:36 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 12:56 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 12:13 LSB wrote:On November 25 2010 12:04 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 12:00 LSB wrote:On November 25 2010 11:07 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 10:21 LSB wrote:On November 25 2010 10:14 Impervious wrote:On November 25 2010 09:50 LSB wrote:On November 25 2010 09:44 Impervious wrote:
[quote]
I just finished watching it, and took a few minutes to gather my thoughts, before replying to this.
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I don't see a problem with their system (not that I prefer it over democracy, however). There are definitely several faults with the country, however. They have a leader that is more concerned with preserving his interests than bettering the individual and becoming more powerful as a group. Their devotion is centered around a hatred of the US (which is reasonable, since they were on the recieving end of US tech during their attempt at reunifying the country, and the leaders capitalized on that to unify the people's resolve in the tough times that followed). Everyone being cutoff from information from the rest of the world also hurts, since they will never know what is going on internationally, nor what has happened since the war, unless the leaders let them know about it (do they even know that the US put men on the moon, as an example of what I mean). While limiting public information is definitely a useful thing in some cases (lets face it, not many people are in the need to know about many things that happen, for security and safety reasons), NK seems to have taken it far too far. Being self-sufficient is definitely a desireable quality that any country should strive for, however, every country (for geographical, social, or other reasons) is better at some things than other, and trade between countries can help both involved, and being in a situation where there is next to no outside contact or trade definitely hurts the country. There is definitely a lot of room for improvement of NK. Then again, the same can be said for every country on earth, don't forget that. It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all. If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown. Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency. Are you truly free? Or has societal influences shaped your path so far? Really, really think hard about this. When you were younger, what did you do? Were you on any sports teams? What were your extracurricular activities? What were your hobbies? How good were your grades? Did you always do your homework? Did you discover any particular strengths and talents you had when you were younger? Did these somehow shape where you went later on in your life? If some of those things were different, would you be where you are now? Their type of system seems to take it one step further, that's all. They figure out which path you should be in (they described it as "peasant", "worker", and "intellectual"). From there, they probably figure out some particular strand you should be in, based on your strengths/weaknesses and talents, and this keeps going until they find something useful in society for you to do, regardless of what your strengths/weakness or skills are. It would put people in positions where they can be successful. And when you've been successful at something, you take pride in it. They may not have the same "freedom" that you have, but if they're happy, does it actually matter? I know you watched that documentary and saw the smiling kid doing her best to try to preform in front of the great leader. But what about those kids who don't want to be a gymnast? What about the peasants of dreams to go to school and live a good life? They have no choice. Sure you can get all ivory tower and question if free will actually exists. But the stark reality of repression is pretty depressing It wasn't just the smiling kid, it was the other people who were filmed as well. TBH, I payed more attention to what the adults said, and how they acted, more than her..... It shows what that type of society is capable of. Of course, starving your population is not a good practice..... I did say that there are some problems with the country (and that's a pretty big one). Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well..... Pointing out one fault in a system doesn't help, when other systems that you'd like to think are "better" still have that problem..... Capitalism = The Poor get screwed over Communism= Everyone but the rich and powerful gets screwed over. Overall, capitalism benefits far more people. Also, the poor in modern society has a chance for vertical social movement. NK they get a chance to work in the gulags. There are definitely a lot of things wrong with the country, no doubt. But you can't simply say a system is soley better because "more people don't get screwed over", can you? Because if you go by that logic, Capitalism is fucking terrible compared to Socialism, because nobody gets screwed over. Downside is that the drive for improvements is no longer as dominant, since the monetary issue is pretty much off the table. but, hey, at least nobody gets screwed over, right? And, yea, people get screwed over in the USA (and in Canada as well), it's just that it's more difficult to see, and it's not as severe. There are still people living on the streets, begging for meals in many cities in Canada..... EDIT - I think some people need to see this: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy.htmlHappyness != choice..... What's more important? Then why don't you move to North Korea? Because I have realized that I'm quite happy and content with where I am and what I have. Can't you be quiet happy and content also in North Korea? The government, will decide your decisions for you! You can take pride in working in the Gulags! And also the government will take away all that food you 'really don't need'. I can't see why you wouldn't want to go Socialism is better right? Did you even watch that TED talk I linked? Of course, I could drop out of university, book a ticket to China, find my way to the border and somehow get myself into NK and start begging on the streets if I wanted to. But look at the other option - I don't drop out, I get a degree, get a job, and live a decent life. Do I really have a choice? It's an illusion of choice. Sure, you can make a choice like "oh, I'll get a pizza instead of a burger", or something similar, but any main, important thing in your life is pretty much an illusion. Lotta info to get to a big point incoming: I was born into a household where both of my parents did not have university educations. My mother had taken some college courses, however. Both of my parents, nonetheless, had successful jobs. My mother decided to trade in her job to be a housewife at one point when I was younger. Because of the job she did have, I was exposed to computer systems at an age of 18 months. I've learned how to use computers to a decent level (nothing close to R1CH, he's a fucking god). I was also introduced to videogaming through computers. She also made sure that I was good in school, I was a straight A student (with the exception of any courses in French). Because my father was a very hands-on person, I learned a lot of stuff from him. He was also a high level chess player, and I used to play him a lot, and after a while, it became less about looking at individual moves, and looking at combinations, then it went to recognizing tempo, then it went to recognizing minute positional advantages, and then it started to become almost instinctual, I was able to simply remember situations and know what the best response was, without thinking about it. Both of my parents pretty much forced me into extracurricular activities. I was involved in learning the piano at one point, I played soccer, etc. I met some of my best friends through these things. I was born with a slight problem with my knees. The choices were either surgery (which was not 100% guaranteed to work, and was rather experimental at the time), braces like Forrest Gump had, or taking years of dance/gymnastics/martial arts to strengthen my legs to compensate for the problem. I studied ballet and martial arts for years (martial arts for a much longer period of time, I dropped ballet pretty quickly, probably for social reasons instead of me actually disliking it). My legs have been rediculously strong ever since. To the main point I'm getting at - Even in high school, when I "wanted" to play on the football team, there were so many factors going into it (several friends on the team, relatively good shape for my size, peer pressure, discipline and leg strength from martial arts, leg strength from ballet, strategy love from the years of chess, my years of studying hard allowing me to have a relatively easy time in high school which gave me free time for it, years of playing videogames allowing me to know how to get into "the zone" and focus completely at the task at hand, etc). Ultimately, I can't look back at it and simply think that it was merely my "choice", more like a logical culmination of many different events in my past led to that outcome. And I enjoyed it immensely, even though it really was an illusion of choice for me. My parents always worked hard at making sure I would be able to do better for myself than they were able to do for themselves. Going to a post-secondary education was definitely the result of that hard work. My parents (and many people I knew) figured I would go into engineering by the time I was 4 years old. Initially, they thought I'd be better in mechanical or robotics engineering because I used to always be good at building and programming robots and stuff, but I'm in Civil. There are even reasons for this (I worked for a construction company doing roadwork for a summer and was amazed at how quickly that stuff could be done, I worked for a landscaper for a summer and was fascinated by what he was able to do, I have family in the industry, I've always been around people who are good at doing renovations, in grade 2 I built a bridge as a school project that could hold my weight, etc). Even in University, my choice for being a frosh guide this year wasn't simply just me deciding to sign up without any influence on the reason - I've got several friends who are involved in our student society and plans the week (including a good friend of mine being the person who pretty much organized the week), I have these big-brother type instincts (thanks to having 3 much younger siblings, which I had to help raise when my dad passed away), memories of how awesome my frosh week was and obviously wanting to repeat it, etc..... I've realized for a long time that I am the sum of all my previous experiences - they shape who I am and who I will become. I'm totally fine with that. To me, the "free choice" people seem to love is just an illusion. Yeah, you totally have it as bad as the North Koreans, no choice whatsoever in your extra-curricular activities or fraternity. Dude, come on.
Seconded. In North Korea if you criticize the government you may end up in a labor camp for the rest of your life (which probably wouldn't be for very long). Millions of people have starved to death their because of their government's corruption and incompetence. You might have had a hard life but imagine what it would be like having your family starve to death or taken away to labor camps never to be seen again. I'm no lover of the US or capitalism but even someone at the lower rung of society in a democratic, capitalist society has far more freedom and opportunities than almost anyone in North Korea.
I think there is a tendency for some liberals to romanticize North Korea because they see it as a last bastion of communism but in fact North Korea is not even a communist country. Where in communist doctrine does it say that the leader of the country should an inherited position? Or that the leader should be regarded as a kind of demi-god? North Korea is actually more a monarchy/cult than a communist country.
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On November 25 2010 16:01 Impervious wrote:
However, it still shows what can be achieved by that type of society. The people can still be happy with their lives, even without the freedoms that others enjoy. Hypothetically, if you could live and die either free and unhappy, or controlled but happy, what would you choose?
Do you think the millions who starved to death were happy with their lives?
In the 1990s North Korea faced significant economic disruptions, including a series of natural disasters, economic mismanagement and serious resource shortages after the collapse of the Eastern Bloc. These resulted in a shortfall of staple grain output of more than 1 million tons from what the country needs to meet internationally accepted minimum dietary requirements.[136] The North Korean famine known as "Arduous March" resulted in the deaths of between 300,000 and 800,000 North Koreans per year during the three year famine, peaking in 1997.[17] The deaths were most likely caused by famine-related illnesses such as pneumonia, tuberculosis, and diarrhea rather than starvation.[17]
In 2006, Amnesty International reported that a national nutrition survey conducted by the North Korean government, the World Food Programme, and UNICEF found that 7% of children were severely malnourished; 37% were chronically malnourished; 23.4% were underweight; and one in three mothers was malnourished and anaemic as the result of the lingering effect of the famine. The inflation caused by some of the 2002 economic reforms, including the Songun or "Military-first" policy, was cited for creating the increased price of basic foods.[137]
Or those in concentration camps?
Multiple international human rights organizations, including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, accuse North Korea of having one of the worst human rights records of any nation.[175] North Koreans have been referred to as "some of the world's most brutalized people" by Human Rights Watch, due to the severe restrictions placed on their political and economic freedoms.[176]
North Korean defectors have testified to the existence of prisons and concentration camps[177] with an estimated 150,000 to 200,000 inmates (about 0.85% of the population), and have reported torture, starvation, rape, murder, medical experimentation, forced labour, and forced abortions.[178] Convicted political prisoners and their families are sent to these camps, where they are prohibited from marrying, required to grow their own food, and cut off from external communication (which was previously allowed).[179]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_korea#Famine
You watch one documentary which was no doubt heavily vetted by the NK government and you come to the concluson that in general North Koreans are 'controlled but happy'. Try to imagine what life would be like for those not of the privileged classes or those who have any sort of independent thought.
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EPT
