As many of you know, yesterday North Korea attacked South Korea, causing greatly increased tensions and a renewed worldwide focus on the DPRK-ROK conflict. Given that there's not much out there (relatively speaking) about North Korea, I thought it would be useful for those of you who are interested in the country to check out this Vice documentary from 2008 where the founder of Vice, Shane, actually went inside North Korea and recorded his time there as a state-guided tourist. The documentary footage is interspersed with clips from North Korean propaganda videos and retrospective notes by Shane.
Shane does a really good job of being kind of the American Everyman who gets thrown into one of the weirdest travel experiences of his life. I was enthralled by this series and couldn't stop watching, even with the commercials every 5 min or so, which you can skip after a few seconds in (it's almost like actual TV!).
Note that this documentary is not going to tell you about the diplomatic situation between NK and SK, or go into a ton of history, or even tell you much about the life of an average NK citizen - it's about what NK chooses to show to the outside world, and what that might say about the country/regime.
The things I've personally heard about North Korea have ranged from sterile military facts to vague family tales to incredibly emotional Hollywood-style tearjerkers. My mother has alluded briefly to her experiences growing up in a Seoul that was basically under martial law under president Park Chung Hee in the 1960s and 70s, when the schools she attended had frequent North Korean air raid drills which required her to crawl very quickly under her desk. When I was in Seoul myself in 2008, there was an event at the summer program I attended at Ewha University where we were shown the movie Crossing, which, well ... here's the trailer:
In the end, I'm not sure what to make of all of this. When I was in Seoul and asked Korean friends what they thought about the North, they generally thought that unification would happen at some point, but it actually wouldn't be good economically for the country. This is a very pragmatic response - South Korea has one of the best economies in the world, but it wouldn't be able to technologically, economically, and socially "lift up" North Korea's population unscathed.
I remember one of my teachers at Ewha telling us a story about a trip she and a couple of her friends took to Germany back in the late 70s or early 80s. She said they were on the subway when they saw three North Koreans in uniform come sit down in the same car - there were a fair number of North Koreans in East Germany at that time, apparently. My teacher and her friends could tell they were Korean from the way they looked and from overhearing bits of what they said to each other. Since the North Koreans of course couldn't talk to any imperialists, they just stared at each other, fascinated. Here were two groups of young people, coming from what was until very recently one country, speaking the same language in the midst of a foreign land, but who were prevented from communicating by accident of history. It's an image that I can't shake whenever I consider the prospects of the Korean peninsula.
I read this blog a while ago, it's about 2 europeans who go into north korea by train. They didn't take the normal tourist route, they took a train from russia. Lots of pictures of rural north korea etc.
Man shane got balls. This was very interesting. But i cringe when i see how fake everyone is there. Especially the tea girl that sees 1 guy every 6 months.
On November 25 2010 04:45 101TFP wrote: I read this blog a while ago, it's about 2 europeans who go into north korea by train. They didn't take the normal tourist route, they took a train from russia. Lots of pictures of rural north korea etc.
Damn awesome experience. A trip to NK is one of the most exotic trips i can think of heheh.
Got to say it looks clean, kind of like Romania 25 years ago. Also, myth busted, those korean students are studying on probably decent computers with LCD monitors, so there may be computers (even if old/weak) spread around pyongyang.
I still don't understand, how did they get a pass? Isn't entrance to NK forbidden for foreigners or non-chinese/russian working in NK?
Thank you for sharing this! Must have been really creepy to actually go there, knowing that you will go to jail if they are too pissed off by your filming... After seeing all three parts: I think "crazyland" was a fitting describtion!
A State of Mind (look at related videos for other parts)
it is a documentary about 2 NK girls preparing for the Arirang Mass Games. It's very revealing and, if u can see through the facade that the state is trying to present, very frightening.
On November 25 2010 04:45 101TFP wrote: I read this blog a while ago, it's about 2 europeans who go into north korea by train. They didn't take the normal tourist route, they took a train from russia. Lots of pictures of rural north korea etc.
Damn awesome experience. A trip to NK is one of the most exotic trips i can think of heheh.
Got to say it looks clean, kind of like Romania 25 years ago. Also, myth busted, those korean students are studying on probably decent computers with LCD monitors, so there may be computers (even if old/weak) spread around pyongyang.
I still don't understand, how did they get a pass? Isn't entrance to NK forbidden for foreigners or non-chinese/russian working in NK?
AFAIK that ban is restricted to Americans, although it might have been lifted earlier this year. People from other western countries are allowed in and out, although there are limitations as to where you can go. From what I've heard its very restricted.
Seems like there are some organized trips and a kind of separation between us-citizens and the rest of the world.
.A visitor joining the KFA Delegation is not treated as a tourist but as a friend of the DPRK, having access to places, information, insights and events not allowed for regular visitors
Who wouldn't like to be treated as a friend of NK? :D We really should join this awesome club and visit their country, they seem like nice people! Oh wait there was something with communism and a crazy leader...
it is a documentary about 2 NK girls preparing for the Arirang Mass Games. It's very revealing and, if u can see through the facade that the state is trying to present, very frightening.
I just finished watching it, and took a few minutes to gather my thoughts, before replying to this.
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I don't see a problem with their system (not that I prefer it over democracy, however). There are definitely several faults with the country, however. They have a leader that is more concerned with preserving his interests than bettering the individual and becoming more powerful as a group. Their devotion is centered around a hatred of the US (which is reasonable, since they were on the recieving end of US tech during their attempt at reunifying the country, and the leaders capitalized on that to unify the people's resolve in the tough times that followed). Everyone being cutoff from information from the rest of the world also hurts, since they will never know what is going on internationally, nor what has happened since the war, unless the leaders let them know about it (do they even know that the US put men on the moon, as an example of what I mean). While limiting public information is definitely a useful thing in some cases (lets face it, not many people are in the need to know about many things that happen, for security and safety reasons), NK seems to have taken it far too far. Being self-sufficient is definitely a desireable quality that any country should strive for, however, every country (for geographical, social, or other reasons) is better at some things than other, and trade between countries can help both involved, and being in a situation where there is next to no outside contact or trade definitely hurts the country. There is definitely a lot of room for improvement of NK. Then again, the same can be said for every country on earth, don't forget that.
it is a documentary about 2 NK girls preparing for the Arirang Mass Games. It's very revealing and, if u can see through the facade that the state is trying to present, very frightening.
I just finished watching it, and took a few minutes to gather my thoughts, before replying to this.
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I don't see a problem with their system (not that I prefer it over democracy, however). There are definitely several faults with the country, however. They have a leader that is more concerned with preserving his interests than bettering the individual and becoming more powerful as a group. Their devotion is centered around a hatred of the US (which is reasonable, since they were on the recieving end of US tech during their attempt at reunifying the country, and the leaders capitalized on that to unify the people's resolve in the tough times that followed). Everyone being cutoff from information from the rest of the world also hurts, since they will never know what is going on internationally, nor what has happened since the war, unless the leaders let them know about it (do they even know that the US put men on the moon, as an example of what I mean). While limiting public information is definitely a useful thing in some cases (lets face it, not many people are in the need to know about many things that happen, for security and safety reasons), NK seems to have taken it far too far. Being self-sufficient is definitely a desireable quality that any country should strive for, however, every country (for geographical, social, or other reasons) is better at some things than other, and trade between countries can help both involved, and being in a situation where there is next to no outside contact or trade definitely hurts the country. There is definitely a lot of room for improvement of NK. Then again, the same can be said for every country on earth, don't forget that.
It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all.
If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown.
Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency.
Children of the Secret State is a documentary about what North Korea does not show the rest of the world. It's a very eye opening and amazing documentary. A must watch for anyone interested in how the country really is.
it is a documentary about 2 NK girls preparing for the Arirang Mass Games. It's very revealing and, if u can see through the facade that the state is trying to present, very frightening.
I just finished watching it, and took a few minutes to gather my thoughts, before replying to this.
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I don't see a problem with their system (not that I prefer it over democracy, however). There are definitely several faults with the country, however. They have a leader that is more concerned with preserving his interests than bettering the individual and becoming more powerful as a group. Their devotion is centered around a hatred of the US (which is reasonable, since they were on the recieving end of US tech during their attempt at reunifying the country, and the leaders capitalized on that to unify the people's resolve in the tough times that followed). Everyone being cutoff from information from the rest of the world also hurts, since they will never know what is going on internationally, nor what has happened since the war, unless the leaders let them know about it (do they even know that the US put men on the moon, as an example of what I mean). While limiting public information is definitely a useful thing in some cases (lets face it, not many people are in the need to know about many things that happen, for security and safety reasons), NK seems to have taken it far too far. Being self-sufficient is definitely a desireable quality that any country should strive for, however, every country (for geographical, social, or other reasons) is better at some things than other, and trade between countries can help both involved, and being in a situation where there is next to no outside contact or trade definitely hurts the country. There is definitely a lot of room for improvement of NK. Then again, the same can be said for every country on earth, don't forget that.
It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all.
If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown.
Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency.
Are you truly free? Or has societal influences shaped your path so far? Really, really think hard about this.
When you were younger, what did you do? Were you on any sports teams? What were your extracurricular activities? What were your hobbies? How good were your grades? Did you always do your homework? Did you discover any particular strengths and talents you had when you were younger?
Did these somehow shape where you went later on in your life? If some of those things were different, would you be where you are now?
Their type of system seems to take it one step further, that's all. They figure out which path you should be in (they described it as "peasant", "worker", and "intellectual"). From there, they probably figure out some particular strand you should be in, based on your strengths/weaknesses and talents, and this keeps going until they find something useful in society for you to do, regardless of what your strengths/weakness or skills are. It would put people in positions where they can be successful. And when you've been successful at something, you take pride in it. They may not have the same "freedom" that you have, but if they're happy, does it actually matter?
Of course, starving your population is not a good practice..... I did say that there are some problems with the country (and that's a pretty big one). Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well..... Pointing out one fault in a system doesn't help, when other systems that you'd like to think are "better" still have that problem.....
it is a documentary about 2 NK girls preparing for the Arirang Mass Games. It's very revealing and, if u can see through the facade that the state is trying to present, very frightening.
I just finished watching it, and took a few minutes to gather my thoughts, before replying to this.
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I don't see a problem with their system (not that I prefer it over democracy, however). There are definitely several faults with the country, however. They have a leader that is more concerned with preserving his interests than bettering the individual and becoming more powerful as a group. Their devotion is centered around a hatred of the US (which is reasonable, since they were on the recieving end of US tech during their attempt at reunifying the country, and the leaders capitalized on that to unify the people's resolve in the tough times that followed). Everyone being cutoff from information from the rest of the world also hurts, since they will never know what is going on internationally, nor what has happened since the war, unless the leaders let them know about it (do they even know that the US put men on the moon, as an example of what I mean). While limiting public information is definitely a useful thing in some cases (lets face it, not many people are in the need to know about many things that happen, for security and safety reasons), NK seems to have taken it far too far. Being self-sufficient is definitely a desireable quality that any country should strive for, however, every country (for geographical, social, or other reasons) is better at some things than other, and trade between countries can help both involved, and being in a situation where there is next to no outside contact or trade definitely hurts the country. There is definitely a lot of room for improvement of NK. Then again, the same can be said for every country on earth, don't forget that.
It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all.
If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown.
Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency.
Are you truly free? Or has societal influences shaped your path so far? Really, really think hard about this.
When you were younger, what did you do? Were you on any sports teams? What were your extracurricular activities? What were your hobbies? How good were your grades? Did you always do your homework? Did you discover any particular strengths and talents you had when you were younger?
Did these somehow shape where you went later on in your life? If some of those things were different, would you be where you are now?
Their type of system seems to take it one step further, that's all. They figure out which path you should be in (they described it as "peasant", "worker", and "intellectual"). From there, they probably figure out some particular strand you should be in, based on your strengths/weaknesses and talents, and this keeps going until they find something useful in society for you to do, regardless of what your strengths/weakness or skills are. It would put people in positions where they can be successful. And when you've been successful at something, you take pride in it. They may not have the same "freedom" that you have, but if they're happy, does it actually matter?
I know you watched that documentary and saw the smiling kid doing her best to try to preform in front of the great leader.
But what about those kids who don't want to be a gymnast? What about the peasants of dreams to go to school and live a good life?
They have no choice.
Sure you can get all ivory tower and question if free will actually exists. But the stark reality of repression is pretty depressing
Of course, starving your population is not a good practice..... I did say that there are some problems with the country (and that's a pretty big one). Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well..... Pointing out one fault in a system doesn't help, when other systems that you'd like to think are "better" still have that problem.....
Capitalism = The Poor get screwed over Communism= Everyone but the rich and powerful gets screwed over.
Overall, capitalism benefits far more people. Also, the poor in modern society has a chance for vertical social movement. NK they get a chance to work in the gulags.
North Korea has become such a larger issue than starving children, and torturing people in concentration camps. It's more than the people chained in abandoned warehouses and left to rot. It's more than the human flesh being sold as pork. It's more than the totalitarian regime that only feeds it's army officers and their families. It's more than the tens of thousands of fertile farm land that is used to grow opium and not food. It's more than the 300,000 refugees hiding in china. It's more than the 70,000 North Korean women being trafficked into china and sold as wives to chinese business men.
North Korea is a human rights issue. People have no idea how important the issue truly is until they actually see it for themselves.
There are children and people forced to kill each other in concentration camps. They have children throw rocks at someone tied up until that person bleeds out and dies. They rape women and brutally kill them when they become pregnant. Believe it or not, the guards are not the ones to blame here. If the guards do not go about and do these things, they themselves will be tortures and killed.
North Korea is a huge global issue. If the United States and the European Nations wanted to police the world, this is the place they need to fix, and not the middle eastern, rich oiled nations.
So I will link back to my first post in this thread (which was at the bottom of the page so it should get very little people noticing it)
it is a documentary about 2 NK girls preparing for the Arirang Mass Games. It's very revealing and, if u can see through the facade that the state is trying to present, very frightening.
I just finished watching it, and took a few minutes to gather my thoughts, before replying to this.
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I don't see a problem with their system (not that I prefer it over democracy, however). There are definitely several faults with the country, however. They have a leader that is more concerned with preserving his interests than bettering the individual and becoming more powerful as a group. Their devotion is centered around a hatred of the US (which is reasonable, since they were on the recieving end of US tech during their attempt at reunifying the country, and the leaders capitalized on that to unify the people's resolve in the tough times that followed). Everyone being cutoff from information from the rest of the world also hurts, since they will never know what is going on internationally, nor what has happened since the war, unless the leaders let them know about it (do they even know that the US put men on the moon, as an example of what I mean). While limiting public information is definitely a useful thing in some cases (lets face it, not many people are in the need to know about many things that happen, for security and safety reasons), NK seems to have taken it far too far. Being self-sufficient is definitely a desireable quality that any country should strive for, however, every country (for geographical, social, or other reasons) is better at some things than other, and trade between countries can help both involved, and being in a situation where there is next to no outside contact or trade definitely hurts the country. There is definitely a lot of room for improvement of NK. Then again, the same can be said for every country on earth, don't forget that.
It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all.
If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown.
Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency.
Are you truly free? Or has societal influences shaped your path so far? Really, really think hard about this.
When you were younger, what did you do? Were you on any sports teams? What were your extracurricular activities? What were your hobbies? How good were your grades? Did you always do your homework? Did you discover any particular strengths and talents you had when you were younger?
Did these somehow shape where you went later on in your life? If some of those things were different, would you be where you are now?
Their type of system seems to take it one step further, that's all. They figure out which path you should be in (they described it as "peasant", "worker", and "intellectual"). From there, they probably figure out some particular strand you should be in, based on your strengths/weaknesses and talents, and this keeps going until they find something useful in society for you to do, regardless of what your strengths/weakness or skills are. It would put people in positions where they can be successful. And when you've been successful at something, you take pride in it. They may not have the same "freedom" that you have, but if they're happy, does it actually matter?
I know you watched that documentary and saw the smiling kid doing her best to try to preform in front of the great leader.
But what about those kids who don't want to be a gymnast? What about the peasants of dreams to go to school and live a good life?
They have no choice.
Sure you can get all ivory tower and question if free will actually exists. But the stark reality of repression is pretty depressing
It wasn't just the smiling kid, it was the other people who were filmed as well. TBH, I payed more attention to what the adults said, and how they acted, more than her.....
Of course, starving your population is not a good practice..... I did say that there are some problems with the country (and that's a pretty big one). Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well..... Pointing out one fault in a system doesn't help, when other systems that you'd like to think are "better" still have that problem.....
Capitalism = The Poor get screwed over Communism= Everyone but the rich and powerful gets screwed over.
Overall, capitalism benefits far more people. Also, the poor in modern society has a chance for vertical social movement. NK they get a chance to work in the gulags.
There are definitely a lot of things wrong with the country, no doubt. But you can't simply say a system is soley better because "more people don't get screwed over", can you? Because if you go by that logic, Capitalism is fucking terrible compared to Socialism, because nobody gets screwed over. Downside is that the drive for improvements is no longer as dominant, since the monetary issue is pretty much off the table. but, hey, at least nobody gets screwed over, right?
And, yea, people get screwed over in the USA (and in Canada as well), it's just that it's more difficult to see, and it's not as severe. There are still people living on the streets, begging for meals in many cities in Canada.....
it is a documentary about 2 NK girls preparing for the Arirang Mass Games. It's very revealing and, if u can see through the facade that the state is trying to present, very frightening.
I just finished watching it, and took a few minutes to gather my thoughts, before replying to this.
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I don't see a problem with their system (not that I prefer it over democracy, however). There are definitely several faults with the country, however. They have a leader that is more concerned with preserving his interests than bettering the individual and becoming more powerful as a group. Their devotion is centered around a hatred of the US (which is reasonable, since they were on the recieving end of US tech during their attempt at reunifying the country, and the leaders capitalized on that to unify the people's resolve in the tough times that followed). Everyone being cutoff from information from the rest of the world also hurts, since they will never know what is going on internationally, nor what has happened since the war, unless the leaders let them know about it (do they even know that the US put men on the moon, as an example of what I mean). While limiting public information is definitely a useful thing in some cases (lets face it, not many people are in the need to know about many things that happen, for security and safety reasons), NK seems to have taken it far too far. Being self-sufficient is definitely a desireable quality that any country should strive for, however, every country (for geographical, social, or other reasons) is better at some things than other, and trade between countries can help both involved, and being in a situation where there is next to no outside contact or trade definitely hurts the country. There is definitely a lot of room for improvement of NK. Then again, the same can be said for every country on earth, don't forget that.
It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all.
If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown.
Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency.
Are you truly free? Or has societal influences shaped your path so far? Really, really think hard about this.
When you were younger, what did you do? Were you on any sports teams? What were your extracurricular activities? What were your hobbies? How good were your grades? Did you always do your homework? Did you discover any particular strengths and talents you had when you were younger?
Did these somehow shape where you went later on in your life? If some of those things were different, would you be where you are now?
Their type of system seems to take it one step further, that's all. They figure out which path you should be in (they described it as "peasant", "worker", and "intellectual"). From there, they probably figure out some particular strand you should be in, based on your strengths/weaknesses and talents, and this keeps going until they find something useful in society for you to do, regardless of what your strengths/weakness or skills are. It would put people in positions where they can be successful. And when you've been successful at something, you take pride in it. They may not have the same "freedom" that you have, but if they're happy, does it actually matter?
I know you watched that documentary and saw the smiling kid doing her best to try to preform in front of the great leader.
But what about those kids who don't want to be a gymnast? What about the peasants of dreams to go to school and live a good life?
They have no choice.
Sure you can get all ivory tower and question if free will actually exists. But the stark reality of repression is pretty depressing
It wasn't just the smiling kid, it was the other people who were filmed as well. TBH, I payed more attention to what the adults said, and how they acted, more than her.....
Of course, starving your population is not a good practice..... I did say that there are some problems with the country (and that's a pretty big one). Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well..... Pointing out one fault in a system doesn't help, when other systems that you'd like to think are "better" still have that problem.....
Capitalism = The Poor get screwed over Communism= Everyone but the rich and powerful gets screwed over.
Overall, capitalism benefits far more people. Also, the poor in modern society has a chance for vertical social movement. NK they get a chance to work in the gulags.
There are definitely a lot of things wrong with the country, no doubt. But you can't simply say a system is soley better because "more people don't get screwed over", can you? Because if you go by that logic, Capitalism is fucking terrible compared to Socialism, because nobody gets screwed over. Downside is that the drive for improvements is no longer as dominant, since the monetary issue is pretty much off the table. but, hey, at least nobody gets screwed over, right?
And, yea, people get screwed over in the USA (and in Canada as well), it's just that it's more difficult to see, and it's not as severe. There are still people living on the streets, begging for meals in many cities in Canada.....
it is a documentary about 2 NK girls preparing for the Arirang Mass Games. It's very revealing and, if u can see through the facade that the state is trying to present, very frightening.
I just finished watching it, and took a few minutes to gather my thoughts, before replying to this.
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I don't see a problem with their system (not that I prefer it over democracy, however). There are definitely several faults with the country, however. They have a leader that is more concerned with preserving his interests than bettering the individual and becoming more powerful as a group. Their devotion is centered around a hatred of the US (which is reasonable, since they were on the recieving end of US tech during their attempt at reunifying the country, and the leaders capitalized on that to unify the people's resolve in the tough times that followed). Everyone being cutoff from information from the rest of the world also hurts, since they will never know what is going on internationally, nor what has happened since the war, unless the leaders let them know about it (do they even know that the US put men on the moon, as an example of what I mean). While limiting public information is definitely a useful thing in some cases (lets face it, not many people are in the need to know about many things that happen, for security and safety reasons), NK seems to have taken it far too far. Being self-sufficient is definitely a desireable quality that any country should strive for, however, every country (for geographical, social, or other reasons) is better at some things than other, and trade between countries can help both involved, and being in a situation where there is next to no outside contact or trade definitely hurts the country. There is definitely a lot of room for improvement of NK. Then again, the same can be said for every country on earth, don't forget that.
It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all.
If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown.
Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency.
Are you truly free? Or has societal influences shaped your path so far? Really, really think hard about this.
When you were younger, what did you do? Were you on any sports teams? What were your extracurricular activities? What were your hobbies? How good were your grades? Did you always do your homework? Did you discover any particular strengths and talents you had when you were younger?
Did these somehow shape where you went later on in your life? If some of those things were different, would you be where you are now?
Their type of system seems to take it one step further, that's all. They figure out which path you should be in (they described it as "peasant", "worker", and "intellectual"). From there, they probably figure out some particular strand you should be in, based on your strengths/weaknesses and talents, and this keeps going until they find something useful in society for you to do, regardless of what your strengths/weakness or skills are. It would put people in positions where they can be successful. And when you've been successful at something, you take pride in it. They may not have the same "freedom" that you have, but if they're happy, does it actually matter?
I know you watched that documentary and saw the smiling kid doing her best to try to preform in front of the great leader.
But what about those kids who don't want to be a gymnast? What about the peasants of dreams to go to school and live a good life?
They have no choice.
Sure you can get all ivory tower and question if free will actually exists. But the stark reality of repression is pretty depressing
It wasn't just the smiling kid, it was the other people who were filmed as well. TBH, I payed more attention to what the adults said, and how they acted, more than her.....
It shows what that type of society is capable of.
Of course, starving your population is not a good practice..... I did say that there are some problems with the country (and that's a pretty big one). Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well..... Pointing out one fault in a system doesn't help, when other systems that you'd like to think are "better" still have that problem.....
Capitalism = The Poor get screwed over Communism= Everyone but the rich and powerful gets screwed over.
Overall, capitalism benefits far more people. Also, the poor in modern society has a chance for vertical social movement. NK they get a chance to work in the gulags.
There are definitely a lot of things wrong with the country, no doubt. But you can't simply say a system is soley better because "more people don't get screwed over", can you? Because if you go by that logic, Capitalism is fucking terrible compared to Socialism, because nobody gets screwed over. Downside is that the drive for improvements is no longer as dominant, since the monetary issue is pretty much off the table. but, hey, at least nobody gets screwed over, right?
And, yea, people get screwed over in the USA (and in Canada as well), it's just that it's more difficult to see, and it's not as severe. There are still people living on the streets, begging for meals in many cities in Canada.....
Thanks to people who've contributed other videos and links about North Korea - I didn't know most of those resources were out there, and it's really great that people have the interest to find this stuff out for themselves.
it is a documentary about 2 NK girls preparing for the Arirang Mass Games. It's very revealing and, if u can see through the facade that the state is trying to present, very frightening.
I just finished watching it, and took a few minutes to gather my thoughts, before replying to this.
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I don't see a problem with their system (not that I prefer it over democracy, however). There are definitely several faults with the country, however. They have a leader that is more concerned with preserving his interests than bettering the individual and becoming more powerful as a group. Their devotion is centered around a hatred of the US (which is reasonable, since they were on the recieving end of US tech during their attempt at reunifying the country, and the leaders capitalized on that to unify the people's resolve in the tough times that followed). Everyone being cutoff from information from the rest of the world also hurts, since they will never know what is going on internationally, nor what has happened since the war, unless the leaders let them know about it (do they even know that the US put men on the moon, as an example of what I mean). While limiting public information is definitely a useful thing in some cases (lets face it, not many people are in the need to know about many things that happen, for security and safety reasons), NK seems to have taken it far too far. Being self-sufficient is definitely a desireable quality that any country should strive for, however, every country (for geographical, social, or other reasons) is better at some things than other, and trade between countries can help both involved, and being in a situation where there is next to no outside contact or trade definitely hurts the country. There is definitely a lot of room for improvement of NK. Then again, the same can be said for every country on earth, don't forget that.
It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all.
If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown.
Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency.
Are you truly free? Or has societal influences shaped your path so far? Really, really think hard about this.
When you were younger, what did you do? Were you on any sports teams? What were your extracurricular activities? What were your hobbies? How good were your grades? Did you always do your homework? Did you discover any particular strengths and talents you had when you were younger?
Did these somehow shape where you went later on in your life? If some of those things were different, would you be where you are now?
Their type of system seems to take it one step further, that's all. They figure out which path you should be in (they described it as "peasant", "worker", and "intellectual"). From there, they probably figure out some particular strand you should be in, based on your strengths/weaknesses and talents, and this keeps going until they find something useful in society for you to do, regardless of what your strengths/weakness or skills are. It would put people in positions where they can be successful. And when you've been successful at something, you take pride in it. They may not have the same "freedom" that you have, but if they're happy, does it actually matter?
I know you watched that documentary and saw the smiling kid doing her best to try to preform in front of the great leader.
But what about those kids who don't want to be a gymnast? What about the peasants of dreams to go to school and live a good life?
They have no choice.
Sure you can get all ivory tower and question if free will actually exists. But the stark reality of repression is pretty depressing
It wasn't just the smiling kid, it was the other people who were filmed as well. TBH, I payed more attention to what the adults said, and how they acted, more than her.....
It shows what that type of society is capable of.
Of course, starving your population is not a good practice..... I did say that there are some problems with the country (and that's a pretty big one). Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well..... Pointing out one fault in a system doesn't help, when other systems that you'd like to think are "better" still have that problem.....
Capitalism = The Poor get screwed over Communism= Everyone but the rich and powerful gets screwed over.
Overall, capitalism benefits far more people. Also, the poor in modern society has a chance for vertical social movement. NK they get a chance to work in the gulags.
There are definitely a lot of things wrong with the country, no doubt. But you can't simply say a system is soley better because "more people don't get screwed over", can you? Because if you go by that logic, Capitalism is fucking terrible compared to Socialism, because nobody gets screwed over. Downside is that the drive for improvements is no longer as dominant, since the monetary issue is pretty much off the table. but, hey, at least nobody gets screwed over, right?
And, yea, people get screwed over in the USA (and in Canada as well), it's just that it's more difficult to see, and it's not as severe. There are still people living on the streets, begging for meals in many cities in Canada.....
Because I have realized that I'm quite happy and content with where I am and what I have.
Can't you be quiet happy and content also in North Korea?
The government, will decide your decisions for you! You can take pride in working in the Gulags! And also the government will take away all that food you 'really don't need'. I can't see why you wouldn't want to go
it is a documentary about 2 NK girls preparing for the Arirang Mass Games. It's very revealing and, if u can see through the facade that the state is trying to present, very frightening.
I just finished watching it, and took a few minutes to gather my thoughts, before replying to this.
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I don't see a problem with their system (not that I prefer it over democracy, however). There are definitely several faults with the country, however. They have a leader that is more concerned with preserving his interests than bettering the individual and becoming more powerful as a group. Their devotion is centered around a hatred of the US (which is reasonable, since they were on the recieving end of US tech during their attempt at reunifying the country, and the leaders capitalized on that to unify the people's resolve in the tough times that followed). Everyone being cutoff from information from the rest of the world also hurts, since they will never know what is going on internationally, nor what has happened since the war, unless the leaders let them know about it (do they even know that the US put men on the moon, as an example of what I mean). While limiting public information is definitely a useful thing in some cases (lets face it, not many people are in the need to know about many things that happen, for security and safety reasons), NK seems to have taken it far too far. Being self-sufficient is definitely a desireable quality that any country should strive for, however, every country (for geographical, social, or other reasons) is better at some things than other, and trade between countries can help both involved, and being in a situation where there is next to no outside contact or trade definitely hurts the country. There is definitely a lot of room for improvement of NK. Then again, the same can be said for every country on earth, don't forget that.
It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all.
If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown.
Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency.
Are you truly free? Or has societal influences shaped your path so far? Really, really think hard about this.
When you were younger, what did you do? Were you on any sports teams? What were your extracurricular activities? What were your hobbies? How good were your grades? Did you always do your homework? Did you discover any particular strengths and talents you had when you were younger?
Did these somehow shape where you went later on in your life? If some of those things were different, would you be where you are now?
Their type of system seems to take it one step further, that's all. They figure out which path you should be in (they described it as "peasant", "worker", and "intellectual"). From there, they probably figure out some particular strand you should be in, based on your strengths/weaknesses and talents, and this keeps going until they find something useful in society for you to do, regardless of what your strengths/weakness or skills are. It would put people in positions where they can be successful. And when you've been successful at something, you take pride in it. They may not have the same "freedom" that you have, but if they're happy, does it actually matter?
Of course, starving your population is not a good practice..... I did say that there are some problems with the country (and that's a pretty big one). Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well..... Pointing out one fault in a system doesn't help, when other systems that you'd like to think are "better" still have that problem.....
Oh, come the fuck on. You CANNOT be arguing that any part of North Korea's "system" is justifiable in any way, shape or form.
I mean you just clearly have no idea what is going on in that country. Are you comparing mandatory social conscription to your parents putting you on a baseball team when you're 8?
I'm pretty sure TorcH (or someone else talking on VT vent) went to North Korea for the mass games, but I never heard back/if they actually went. Would be interesting to see their view of NK.
it is a documentary about 2 NK girls preparing for the Arirang Mass Games. It's very revealing and, if u can see through the facade that the state is trying to present, very frightening.
I just finished watching it, and took a few minutes to gather my thoughts, before replying to this.
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I don't see a problem with their system (not that I prefer it over democracy, however). There are definitely several faults with the country, however. They have a leader that is more concerned with preserving his interests than bettering the individual and becoming more powerful as a group. Their devotion is centered around a hatred of the US (which is reasonable, since they were on the recieving end of US tech during their attempt at reunifying the country, and the leaders capitalized on that to unify the people's resolve in the tough times that followed). Everyone being cutoff from information from the rest of the world also hurts, since they will never know what is going on internationally, nor what has happened since the war, unless the leaders let them know about it (do they even know that the US put men on the moon, as an example of what I mean). While limiting public information is definitely a useful thing in some cases (lets face it, not many people are in the need to know about many things that happen, for security and safety reasons), NK seems to have taken it far too far. Being self-sufficient is definitely a desireable quality that any country should strive for, however, every country (for geographical, social, or other reasons) is better at some things than other, and trade between countries can help both involved, and being in a situation where there is next to no outside contact or trade definitely hurts the country. There is definitely a lot of room for improvement of NK. Then again, the same can be said for every country on earth, don't forget that.
It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all.
If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown.
Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency.
Are you truly free? Or has societal influences shaped your path so far? Really, really think hard about this.
When you were younger, what did you do? Were you on any sports teams? What were your extracurricular activities? What were your hobbies? How good were your grades? Did you always do your homework? Did you discover any particular strengths and talents you had when you were younger?
Did these somehow shape where you went later on in your life? If some of those things were different, would you be where you are now?
Their type of system seems to take it one step further, that's all. They figure out which path you should be in (they described it as "peasant", "worker", and "intellectual"). From there, they probably figure out some particular strand you should be in, based on your strengths/weaknesses and talents, and this keeps going until they find something useful in society for you to do, regardless of what your strengths/weakness or skills are. It would put people in positions where they can be successful. And when you've been successful at something, you take pride in it. They may not have the same "freedom" that you have, but if they're happy, does it actually matter?
I know you watched that documentary and saw the smiling kid doing her best to try to preform in front of the great leader.
But what about those kids who don't want to be a gymnast? What about the peasants of dreams to go to school and live a good life?
They have no choice.
Sure you can get all ivory tower and question if free will actually exists. But the stark reality of repression is pretty depressing
It wasn't just the smiling kid, it was the other people who were filmed as well. TBH, I payed more attention to what the adults said, and how they acted, more than her.....
It shows what that type of society is capable of.
Of course, starving your population is not a good practice..... I did say that there are some problems with the country (and that's a pretty big one). Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well..... Pointing out one fault in a system doesn't help, when other systems that you'd like to think are "better" still have that problem.....
Capitalism = The Poor get screwed over Communism= Everyone but the rich and powerful gets screwed over.
Overall, capitalism benefits far more people. Also, the poor in modern society has a chance for vertical social movement. NK they get a chance to work in the gulags.
There are definitely a lot of things wrong with the country, no doubt. But you can't simply say a system is soley better because "more people don't get screwed over", can you? Because if you go by that logic, Capitalism is fucking terrible compared to Socialism, because nobody gets screwed over. Downside is that the drive for improvements is no longer as dominant, since the monetary issue is pretty much off the table. but, hey, at least nobody gets screwed over, right?
And, yea, people get screwed over in the USA (and in Canada as well), it's just that it's more difficult to see, and it's not as severe. There are still people living on the streets, begging for meals in many cities in Canada.....
Because I have realized that I'm quite happy and content with where I am and what I have.
Can't you be quiet happy and content also in North Korea?
The government, will decide your decisions for you! You can take pride in working in the Gulags! And also the government will take away all that food you 'really don't need'. I can't see why you wouldn't want to go
Socialism is better right?
Did you even watch that TED talk I linked?
Of course, I could drop out of university, book a ticket to China, find my way to the border and somehow get myself into NK and start begging on the streets if I wanted to. But look at the other option - I don't drop out, I get a degree, get a job, and live a decent life.
Do I really have a choice?
It's an illusion of choice. Sure, you can make a choice like "oh, I'll get a pizza instead of a burger", or something similar, but any main, important thing in your life is pretty much an illusion.
Lotta info to get to a big point incoming:
I was born into a household where both of my parents did not have university educations. My mother had taken some college courses, however. Both of my parents, nonetheless, had successful jobs. My mother decided to trade in her job to be a housewife at one point when I was younger. Because of the job she did have, I was exposed to computer systems at an age of 18 months. I've learned how to use computers to a decent level (nothing close to R1CH, he's a fucking god). I was also introduced to videogaming through computers. She also made sure that I was good in school, I was a straight A student (with the exception of any courses in French).
Because my father was a very hands-on person, I learned a lot of stuff from him. He was also a high level chess player, and I used to play him a lot, and after a while, it became less about looking at individual moves, and looking at combinations, then it went to recognizing tempo, then it went to recognizing minute positional advantages, and then it started to become almost instinctual, I was able to simply remember situations and know what the best response was, without thinking about it.
Both of my parents pretty much forced me into extracurricular activities. I was involved in learning the piano at one point, I played soccer, etc. I met some of my best friends through these things.
I was born with a slight problem with my knees. The choices were either surgery (which was not 100% guaranteed to work, and was rather experimental at the time), braces like Forrest Gump had, or taking years of dance/gymnastics/martial arts to strengthen my legs to compensate for the problem. I studied ballet and martial arts for years (martial arts for a much longer period of time, I dropped ballet pretty quickly, probably for social reasons instead of me actually disliking it). My legs have been rediculously strong ever since.
To the main point I'm getting at - Even in high school, when I "wanted" to play on the football team, there were so many factors going into it (several friends on the team, relatively good shape for my size, peer pressure, discipline and leg strength from martial arts, leg strength from ballet, strategy love from the years of chess, my years of studying hard allowing me to have a relatively easy time in high school which gave me free time for it, years of playing videogames allowing me to know how to get into "the zone" and focus completely at the task at hand, etc). Ultimately, I can't look back at it and simply think that it was merely my "choice", more like a logical culmination of many different events in my past led to that outcome. And I enjoyed it immensely, even though it really was an illusion of choice for me.
My parents always worked hard at making sure I would be able to do better for myself than they were able to do for themselves. Going to a post-secondary education was definitely the result of that hard work. My parents (and many people I knew) figured I would go into engineering by the time I was 4 years old. Initially, they thought I'd be better in mechanical or robotics engineering because I used to always be good at building and programming robots and stuff, but I'm in Civil. There are even reasons for this (I worked for a construction company doing roadwork for a summer and was amazed at how quickly that stuff could be done, I worked for a landscaper for a summer and was fascinated by what he was able to do, I have family in the industry, I've always been around people who are good at doing renovations, in grade 2 I built a bridge as a school project that could hold my weight, etc).
Even in University, my choice for being a frosh guide this year wasn't simply just me deciding to sign up without any influence on the reason - I've got several friends who are involved in our student society and plans the week (including a good friend of mine being the person who pretty much organized the week), I have these big-brother type instincts (thanks to having 3 much younger siblings, which I had to help raise when my dad passed away), memories of how awesome my frosh week was and obviously wanting to repeat it, etc.....
I've realized for a long time that I am the sum of all my previous experiences - they shape who I am and who I will become. I'm totally fine with that. To me, the "free choice" people seem to love is just an illusion.
it is a documentary about 2 NK girls preparing for the Arirang Mass Games. It's very revealing and, if u can see through the facade that the state is trying to present, very frightening.
I just finished watching it, and took a few minutes to gather my thoughts, before replying to this.
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I don't see a problem with their system (not that I prefer it over democracy, however). There are definitely several faults with the country, however. They have a leader that is more concerned with preserving his interests than bettering the individual and becoming more powerful as a group. Their devotion is centered around a hatred of the US (which is reasonable, since they were on the recieving end of US tech during their attempt at reunifying the country, and the leaders capitalized on that to unify the people's resolve in the tough times that followed). Everyone being cutoff from information from the rest of the world also hurts, since they will never know what is going on internationally, nor what has happened since the war, unless the leaders let them know about it (do they even know that the US put men on the moon, as an example of what I mean). While limiting public information is definitely a useful thing in some cases (lets face it, not many people are in the need to know about many things that happen, for security and safety reasons), NK seems to have taken it far too far. Being self-sufficient is definitely a desireable quality that any country should strive for, however, every country (for geographical, social, or other reasons) is better at some things than other, and trade between countries can help both involved, and being in a situation where there is next to no outside contact or trade definitely hurts the country. There is definitely a lot of room for improvement of NK. Then again, the same can be said for every country on earth, don't forget that.
It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all.
If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown.
Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency.
Are you truly free? Or has societal influences shaped your path so far? Really, really think hard about this.
When you were younger, what did you do? Were you on any sports teams? What were your extracurricular activities? What were your hobbies? How good were your grades? Did you always do your homework? Did you discover any particular strengths and talents you had when you were younger?
Did these somehow shape where you went later on in your life? If some of those things were different, would you be where you are now?
Their type of system seems to take it one step further, that's all. They figure out which path you should be in (they described it as "peasant", "worker", and "intellectual"). From there, they probably figure out some particular strand you should be in, based on your strengths/weaknesses and talents, and this keeps going until they find something useful in society for you to do, regardless of what your strengths/weakness or skills are. It would put people in positions where they can be successful. And when you've been successful at something, you take pride in it. They may not have the same "freedom" that you have, but if they're happy, does it actually matter?
Of course, starving your population is not a good practice..... I did say that there are some problems with the country (and that's a pretty big one). Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well..... Pointing out one fault in a system doesn't help, when other systems that you'd like to think are "better" still have that problem.....
Oh, come the fuck on. You CANNOT be arguing that any part of North Korea's "system" is justifiable in any way, shape or form.
Was invading Iraq over "WMDs" justifiable?
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter..... Of course we don't like their system, and they don't like ours..... How can you determine which system is truly better?
It would put people in positions where they can be successful.
Ah, like 'on the ground with 9mm of lead in the skull'?
Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well
"Too poor to afford anything but fattening McDonalds" is qualitatively different than "2.8 million people starving to death in 3 years", would you agree?
How can you determine which system is truly better?
The same way you object when someone steals your bike...
It would put people in positions where they can be successful.
Ah, like 'on the ground with 9mm of lead in the skull'?
Communism is a lot like an ant colony.
If an ant is weak, or dying, it's shunned from the colony (and often will walk away to its fate). Also, if there are too many eggs, or not enough food, it will force some to starve, for the good of the colony as a whole..... In those cases, the ants are better off dead, for the good of the whole.
If the same principle is applied to communism, well, you get that result..... I find it fucking terrible as well.....
Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well
"Too poor to afford anything but fattening McDonalds" is qualitatively different than "2.8 million people starving to death in 3 years", would you agree?
The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) reported that in 2008 * Of the 49.1 million people living in food insecure households (up from 36.2 million in 2007), 32.4 million are adults (14.4 percent of all adults) and 16.7 million are children (22.5 percent of all children). * 17.3 million people lived in households that were considered to have "very low food security," a USDA term (previously denominated "food insecure with hunger") that means one or more people in the household were hungry over the course of the year because of the inability to afford enough food. This was up from 11.9 million in 2007 and 8.5 million in 2000. * Very low food security had been getting worse even before the recession. The number of people in this category in 2008 is more than double the number in 2000. * Black (25.7 percent) and Hispanic (26.9 percent) households experienced food insecurity at far higher rates than the national average.
While it is definitely measured to look more drastic in the USA than it would be in NK or Africa, there is still a problem that the country should not have.....
How can you determine which system is truly better?
The same way you object when someone steals your bike...
You get money taken from you by the government in the form of taxes, right? How is that any different than the government taking your bike for "government purposes" instead?
it is a documentary about 2 NK girls preparing for the Arirang Mass Games. It's very revealing and, if u can see through the facade that the state is trying to present, very frightening.
I just finished watching it, and took a few minutes to gather my thoughts, before replying to this.
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I don't see a problem with their system (not that I prefer it over democracy, however). There are definitely several faults with the country, however. They have a leader that is more concerned with preserving his interests than bettering the individual and becoming more powerful as a group. Their devotion is centered around a hatred of the US (which is reasonable, since they were on the recieving end of US tech during their attempt at reunifying the country, and the leaders capitalized on that to unify the people's resolve in the tough times that followed). Everyone being cutoff from information from the rest of the world also hurts, since they will never know what is going on internationally, nor what has happened since the war, unless the leaders let them know about it (do they even know that the US put men on the moon, as an example of what I mean). While limiting public information is definitely a useful thing in some cases (lets face it, not many people are in the need to know about many things that happen, for security and safety reasons), NK seems to have taken it far too far. Being self-sufficient is definitely a desireable quality that any country should strive for, however, every country (for geographical, social, or other reasons) is better at some things than other, and trade between countries can help both involved, and being in a situation where there is next to no outside contact or trade definitely hurts the country. There is definitely a lot of room for improvement of NK. Then again, the same can be said for every country on earth, don't forget that.
It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all.
If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown.
Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency.
Are you truly free? Or has societal influences shaped your path so far? Really, really think hard about this.
When you were younger, what did you do? Were you on any sports teams? What were your extracurricular activities? What were your hobbies? How good were your grades? Did you always do your homework? Did you discover any particular strengths and talents you had when you were younger?
Did these somehow shape where you went later on in your life? If some of those things were different, would you be where you are now?
Their type of system seems to take it one step further, that's all. They figure out which path you should be in (they described it as "peasant", "worker", and "intellectual"). From there, they probably figure out some particular strand you should be in, based on your strengths/weaknesses and talents, and this keeps going until they find something useful in society for you to do, regardless of what your strengths/weakness or skills are. It would put people in positions where they can be successful. And when you've been successful at something, you take pride in it. They may not have the same "freedom" that you have, but if they're happy, does it actually matter?
I know you watched that documentary and saw the smiling kid doing her best to try to preform in front of the great leader.
But what about those kids who don't want to be a gymnast? What about the peasants of dreams to go to school and live a good life?
They have no choice.
Sure you can get all ivory tower and question if free will actually exists. But the stark reality of repression is pretty depressing
It wasn't just the smiling kid, it was the other people who were filmed as well. TBH, I payed more attention to what the adults said, and how they acted, more than her.....
It shows what that type of society is capable of.
Of course, starving your population is not a good practice..... I did say that there are some problems with the country (and that's a pretty big one). Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well..... Pointing out one fault in a system doesn't help, when other systems that you'd like to think are "better" still have that problem.....
Capitalism = The Poor get screwed over Communism= Everyone but the rich and powerful gets screwed over.
Overall, capitalism benefits far more people. Also, the poor in modern society has a chance for vertical social movement. NK they get a chance to work in the gulags.
There are definitely a lot of things wrong with the country, no doubt. But you can't simply say a system is soley better because "more people don't get screwed over", can you? Because if you go by that logic, Capitalism is fucking terrible compared to Socialism, because nobody gets screwed over. Downside is that the drive for improvements is no longer as dominant, since the monetary issue is pretty much off the table. but, hey, at least nobody gets screwed over, right?
And, yea, people get screwed over in the USA (and in Canada as well), it's just that it's more difficult to see, and it's not as severe. There are still people living on the streets, begging for meals in many cities in Canada.....
Because I have realized that I'm quite happy and content with where I am and what I have.
Can't you be quiet happy and content also in North Korea?
The government, will decide your decisions for you! You can take pride in working in the Gulags! And also the government will take away all that food you 'really don't need'. I can't see why you wouldn't want to go
Socialism is better right?
Did you even watch that TED talk I linked?
Of course, I could drop out of university, book a ticket to China, find my way to the border and somehow get myself into NK and start begging on the streets if I wanted to. But look at the other option - I don't drop out, I get a degree, get a job, and live a decent life.
Do I really have a choice?
It's an illusion of choice. Sure, you can make a choice like "oh, I'll get a pizza instead of a burger", or something similar, but any main, important thing in your life is pretty much an illusion.
Lotta info to get to a big point incoming:
I was born into a household where both of my parents did not have university educations. My mother had taken some college courses, however. Both of my parents, nonetheless, had successful jobs. My mother decided to trade in her job to be a housewife at one point when I was younger. Because of the job she did have, I was exposed to computer systems at an age of 18 months. I've learned how to use computers to a decent level (nothing close to R1CH, he's a fucking god). I was also introduced to videogaming through computers. She also made sure that I was good in school, I was a straight A student (with the exception of any courses in French).
Because my father was a very hands-on person, I learned a lot of stuff from him. He was also a high level chess player, and I used to play him a lot, and after a while, it became less about looking at individual moves, and looking at combinations, then it went to recognizing tempo, then it went to recognizing minute positional advantages, and then it started to become almost instinctual, I was able to simply remember situations and know what the best response was, without thinking about it.
Both of my parents pretty much forced me into extracurricular activities. I was involved in learning the piano at one point, I played soccer, etc. I met some of my best friends through these things.
I was born with a slight problem with my knees. The choices were either surgery (which was not 100% guaranteed to work, and was rather experimental at the time), braces like Forrest Gump had, or taking years of dance/gymnastics/martial arts to strengthen my legs to compensate for the problem. I studied ballet and martial arts for years (martial arts for a much longer period of time, I dropped ballet pretty quickly, probably for social reasons instead of me actually disliking it). My legs have been rediculously strong ever since.
To the main point I'm getting at - Even in high school, when I "wanted" to play on the football team, there were so many factors going into it (several friends on the team, relatively good shape for my size, peer pressure, discipline and leg strength from martial arts, leg strength from ballet, strategy love from the years of chess, my years of studying hard allowing me to have a relatively easy time in high school which gave me free time for it, years of playing videogames allowing me to know how to get into "the zone" and focus completely at the task at hand, etc). Ultimately, I can't look back at it and simply think that it was merely my "choice", more like a logical culmination of many different events in my past led to that outcome. And I enjoyed it immensely, even though it really was an illusion of choice for me.
My parents always worked hard at making sure I would be able to do better for myself than they were able to do for themselves. Going to a post-secondary education was definitely the result of that hard work. My parents (and many people I knew) figured I would go into engineering by the time I was 4 years old. Initially, they thought I'd be better in mechanical or robotics engineering because I used to always be good at building and programming robots and stuff, but I'm in Civil. There are even reasons for this (I worked for a construction company doing roadwork for a summer and was amazed at how quickly that stuff could be done, I worked for a landscaper for a summer and was fascinated by what he was able to do, I have family in the industry, I've always been around people who are good at doing renovations, in grade 2 I built a bridge as a school project that could hold my weight, etc).
Even in University, my choice for being a frosh guide this year wasn't simply just me deciding to sign up without any influence on the reason - I've got several friends who are involved in our student society and plans the week (including a good friend of mine being the person who pretty much organized the week), I have these big-brother type instincts (thanks to having 3 much younger siblings, which I had to help raise when my dad passed away), memories of how awesome my frosh week was and obviously wanting to repeat it, etc.....
I've realized for a long time that I am the sum of all my previous experiences - they shape who I am and who I will become. I'm totally fine with that. To me, the "free choice" people seem to love is just an illusion.
*claps* I personally love this response. I have always been a believer that "choice" is an illusion and nothing more.
On November 25 2010 09:44 Impervious wrote: There is definitely a lot of room for improvement of NK. Then again, the same can be said for every country on earth, don't forget that.
I like it. To be fair, their transgressions are far more egregious, even if the documentary about the hand-picked gymnasts doesn't seem to suggest it. But it's that unfettered reasonableness that allows you Canadians to move freely into NK. (I know a couple that visits regularly as NGO workers).
Anyway, I can look at inner-city life in the states and tell you we don't have everything worked out ourselves. I always thought this would be a cool way to approach human-rights issues with China. We could reach an agreement where we set a target to improve conditions for a certain neglected segment of our population and China does the same. Perhaps we could even collaborate to find answers to our problems. Instead of condemning them, we could partner up and each take responsibility for our own problems. It would be great PR and great for people..
it is a documentary about 2 NK girls preparing for the Arirang Mass Games. It's very revealing and, if u can see through the facade that the state is trying to present, very frightening.
I just finished watching it, and took a few minutes to gather my thoughts, before replying to this.
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I don't see a problem with their system (not that I prefer it over democracy, however). There are definitely several faults with the country, however. They have a leader that is more concerned with preserving his interests than bettering the individual and becoming more powerful as a group. Their devotion is centered around a hatred of the US (which is reasonable, since they were on the recieving end of US tech during their attempt at reunifying the country, and the leaders capitalized on that to unify the people's resolve in the tough times that followed). Everyone being cutoff from information from the rest of the world also hurts, since they will never know what is going on internationally, nor what has happened since the war, unless the leaders let them know about it (do they even know that the US put men on the moon, as an example of what I mean). While limiting public information is definitely a useful thing in some cases (lets face it, not many people are in the need to know about many things that happen, for security and safety reasons), NK seems to have taken it far too far. Being self-sufficient is definitely a desireable quality that any country should strive for, however, every country (for geographical, social, or other reasons) is better at some things than other, and trade between countries can help both involved, and being in a situation where there is next to no outside contact or trade definitely hurts the country. There is definitely a lot of room for improvement of NK. Then again, the same can be said for every country on earth, don't forget that.
It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all.
If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown.
Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency.
Are you truly free? Or has societal influences shaped your path so far? Really, really think hard about this.
When you were younger, what did you do? Were you on any sports teams? What were your extracurricular activities? What were your hobbies? How good were your grades? Did you always do your homework? Did you discover any particular strengths and talents you had when you were younger?
Did these somehow shape where you went later on in your life? If some of those things were different, would you be where you are now?
Their type of system seems to take it one step further, that's all. They figure out which path you should be in (they described it as "peasant", "worker", and "intellectual"). From there, they probably figure out some particular strand you should be in, based on your strengths/weaknesses and talents, and this keeps going until they find something useful in society for you to do, regardless of what your strengths/weakness or skills are. It would put people in positions where they can be successful. And when you've been successful at something, you take pride in it. They may not have the same "freedom" that you have, but if they're happy, does it actually matter?
I know you watched that documentary and saw the smiling kid doing her best to try to preform in front of the great leader.
But what about those kids who don't want to be a gymnast? What about the peasants of dreams to go to school and live a good life?
They have no choice.
Sure you can get all ivory tower and question if free will actually exists. But the stark reality of repression is pretty depressing
It wasn't just the smiling kid, it was the other people who were filmed as well. TBH, I payed more attention to what the adults said, and how they acted, more than her.....
It shows what that type of society is capable of.
Of course, starving your population is not a good practice..... I did say that there are some problems with the country (and that's a pretty big one). Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well..... Pointing out one fault in a system doesn't help, when other systems that you'd like to think are "better" still have that problem.....
Capitalism = The Poor get screwed over Communism= Everyone but the rich and powerful gets screwed over.
Overall, capitalism benefits far more people. Also, the poor in modern society has a chance for vertical social movement. NK they get a chance to work in the gulags.
There are definitely a lot of things wrong with the country, no doubt. But you can't simply say a system is soley better because "more people don't get screwed over", can you? Because if you go by that logic, Capitalism is fucking terrible compared to Socialism, because nobody gets screwed over. Downside is that the drive for improvements is no longer as dominant, since the monetary issue is pretty much off the table. but, hey, at least nobody gets screwed over, right?
And, yea, people get screwed over in the USA (and in Canada as well), it's just that it's more difficult to see, and it's not as severe. There are still people living on the streets, begging for meals in many cities in Canada.....
Because I have realized that I'm quite happy and content with where I am and what I have.
Can't you be quiet happy and content also in North Korea?
The government, will decide your decisions for you! You can take pride in working in the Gulags! And also the government will take away all that food you 'really don't need'. I can't see why you wouldn't want to go
Socialism is better right?
Did you even watch that TED talk I linked?
Of course, I could drop out of university, book a ticket to China, find my way to the border and somehow get myself into NK and start begging on the streets if I wanted to. But look at the other option - I don't drop out, I get a degree, get a job, and live a decent life.
Do I really have a choice?
It's an illusion of choice. Sure, you can make a choice like "oh, I'll get a pizza instead of a burger", or something similar, but any main, important thing in your life is pretty much an illusion.
Lotta info to get to a big point incoming:
I was born into a household where both of my parents did not have university educations. My mother had taken some college courses, however. Both of my parents, nonetheless, had successful jobs. My mother decided to trade in her job to be a housewife at one point when I was younger. Because of the job she did have, I was exposed to computer systems at an age of 18 months. I've learned how to use computers to a decent level (nothing close to R1CH, he's a fucking god). I was also introduced to videogaming through computers. She also made sure that I was good in school, I was a straight A student (with the exception of any courses in French).
Because my father was a very hands-on person, I learned a lot of stuff from him. He was also a high level chess player, and I used to play him a lot, and after a while, it became less about looking at individual moves, and looking at combinations, then it went to recognizing tempo, then it went to recognizing minute positional advantages, and then it started to become almost instinctual, I was able to simply remember situations and know what the best response was, without thinking about it.
Both of my parents pretty much forced me into extracurricular activities. I was involved in learning the piano at one point, I played soccer, etc. I met some of my best friends through these things.
I was born with a slight problem with my knees. The choices were either surgery (which was not 100% guaranteed to work, and was rather experimental at the time), braces like Forrest Gump had, or taking years of dance/gymnastics/martial arts to strengthen my legs to compensate for the problem. I studied ballet and martial arts for years (martial arts for a much longer period of time, I dropped ballet pretty quickly, probably for social reasons instead of me actually disliking it). My legs have been rediculously strong ever since.
To the main point I'm getting at - Even in high school, when I "wanted" to play on the football team, there were so many factors going into it (several friends on the team, relatively good shape for my size, peer pressure, discipline and leg strength from martial arts, leg strength from ballet, strategy love from the years of chess, my years of studying hard allowing me to have a relatively easy time in high school which gave me free time for it, years of playing videogames allowing me to know how to get into "the zone" and focus completely at the task at hand, etc). Ultimately, I can't look back at it and simply think that it was merely my "choice", more like a logical culmination of many different events in my past led to that outcome. And I enjoyed it immensely, even though it really was an illusion of choice for me.
My parents always worked hard at making sure I would be able to do better for myself than they were able to do for themselves. Going to a post-secondary education was definitely the result of that hard work. My parents (and many people I knew) figured I would go into engineering by the time I was 4 years old. Initially, they thought I'd be better in mechanical or robotics engineering because I used to always be good at building and programming robots and stuff, but I'm in Civil. There are even reasons for this (I worked for a construction company doing roadwork for a summer and was amazed at how quickly that stuff could be done, I worked for a landscaper for a summer and was fascinated by what he was able to do, I have family in the industry, I've always been around people who are good at doing renovations, in grade 2 I built a bridge as a school project that could hold my weight, etc).
Even in University, my choice for being a frosh guide this year wasn't simply just me deciding to sign up without any influence on the reason - I've got several friends who are involved in our student society and plans the week (including a good friend of mine being the person who pretty much organized the week), I have these big-brother type instincts (thanks to having 3 much younger siblings, which I had to help raise when my dad passed away), memories of how awesome my frosh week was and obviously wanting to repeat it, etc.....
I've realized for a long time that I am the sum of all my previous experiences - they shape who I am and who I will become. I'm totally fine with that. To me, the "free choice" people seem to love is just an illusion.
Yeah, you totally have it as bad as the North Koreans, no choice whatsoever in your extra-curricular activities or fraternity.
On November 25 2010 09:44 Impervious wrote: [quote] I just finished watching it, and took a few minutes to gather my thoughts, before replying to this.
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I don't see a problem with their system (not that I prefer it over democracy, however). There are definitely several faults with the country, however. They have a leader that is more concerned with preserving his interests than bettering the individual and becoming more powerful as a group. Their devotion is centered around a hatred of the US (which is reasonable, since they were on the recieving end of US tech during their attempt at reunifying the country, and the leaders capitalized on that to unify the people's resolve in the tough times that followed). Everyone being cutoff from information from the rest of the world also hurts, since they will never know what is going on internationally, nor what has happened since the war, unless the leaders let them know about it (do they even know that the US put men on the moon, as an example of what I mean). While limiting public information is definitely a useful thing in some cases (lets face it, not many people are in the need to know about many things that happen, for security and safety reasons), NK seems to have taken it far too far. Being self-sufficient is definitely a desireable quality that any country should strive for, however, every country (for geographical, social, or other reasons) is better at some things than other, and trade between countries can help both involved, and being in a situation where there is next to no outside contact or trade definitely hurts the country. There is definitely a lot of room for improvement of NK. Then again, the same can be said for every country on earth, don't forget that.
It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all.
If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown.
Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency.
Are you truly free? Or has societal influences shaped your path so far? Really, really think hard about this.
When you were younger, what did you do? Were you on any sports teams? What were your extracurricular activities? What were your hobbies? How good were your grades? Did you always do your homework? Did you discover any particular strengths and talents you had when you were younger?
Did these somehow shape where you went later on in your life? If some of those things were different, would you be where you are now?
Their type of system seems to take it one step further, that's all. They figure out which path you should be in (they described it as "peasant", "worker", and "intellectual"). From there, they probably figure out some particular strand you should be in, based on your strengths/weaknesses and talents, and this keeps going until they find something useful in society for you to do, regardless of what your strengths/weakness or skills are. It would put people in positions where they can be successful. And when you've been successful at something, you take pride in it. They may not have the same "freedom" that you have, but if they're happy, does it actually matter?
I know you watched that documentary and saw the smiling kid doing her best to try to preform in front of the great leader.
But what about those kids who don't want to be a gymnast? What about the peasants of dreams to go to school and live a good life?
They have no choice.
Sure you can get all ivory tower and question if free will actually exists. But the stark reality of repression is pretty depressing
It wasn't just the smiling kid, it was the other people who were filmed as well. TBH, I payed more attention to what the adults said, and how they acted, more than her.....
It shows what that type of society is capable of.
Of course, starving your population is not a good practice..... I did say that there are some problems with the country (and that's a pretty big one). Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well..... Pointing out one fault in a system doesn't help, when other systems that you'd like to think are "better" still have that problem.....
Capitalism = The Poor get screwed over Communism= Everyone but the rich and powerful gets screwed over.
Overall, capitalism benefits far more people. Also, the poor in modern society has a chance for vertical social movement. NK they get a chance to work in the gulags.
There are definitely a lot of things wrong with the country, no doubt. But you can't simply say a system is soley better because "more people don't get screwed over", can you? Because if you go by that logic, Capitalism is fucking terrible compared to Socialism, because nobody gets screwed over. Downside is that the drive for improvements is no longer as dominant, since the monetary issue is pretty much off the table. but, hey, at least nobody gets screwed over, right?
And, yea, people get screwed over in the USA (and in Canada as well), it's just that it's more difficult to see, and it's not as severe. There are still people living on the streets, begging for meals in many cities in Canada.....
Because I have realized that I'm quite happy and content with where I am and what I have.
Can't you be quiet happy and content also in North Korea?
The government, will decide your decisions for you! You can take pride in working in the Gulags! And also the government will take away all that food you 'really don't need'. I can't see why you wouldn't want to go
Socialism is better right?
Did you even watch that TED talk I linked?
Of course, I could drop out of university, book a ticket to China, find my way to the border and somehow get myself into NK and start begging on the streets if I wanted to. But look at the other option - I don't drop out, I get a degree, get a job, and live a decent life.
Do I really have a choice?
It's an illusion of choice. Sure, you can make a choice like "oh, I'll get a pizza instead of a burger", or something similar, but any main, important thing in your life is pretty much an illusion.
Lotta info to get to a big point incoming:
I was born into a household where both of my parents did not have university educations. My mother had taken some college courses, however. Both of my parents, nonetheless, had successful jobs. My mother decided to trade in her job to be a housewife at one point when I was younger. Because of the job she did have, I was exposed to computer systems at an age of 18 months. I've learned how to use computers to a decent level (nothing close to R1CH, he's a fucking god). I was also introduced to videogaming through computers. She also made sure that I was good in school, I was a straight A student (with the exception of any courses in French).
Because my father was a very hands-on person, I learned a lot of stuff from him. He was also a high level chess player, and I used to play him a lot, and after a while, it became less about looking at individual moves, and looking at combinations, then it went to recognizing tempo, then it went to recognizing minute positional advantages, and then it started to become almost instinctual, I was able to simply remember situations and know what the best response was, without thinking about it.
Both of my parents pretty much forced me into extracurricular activities. I was involved in learning the piano at one point, I played soccer, etc. I met some of my best friends through these things.
I was born with a slight problem with my knees. The choices were either surgery (which was not 100% guaranteed to work, and was rather experimental at the time), braces like Forrest Gump had, or taking years of dance/gymnastics/martial arts to strengthen my legs to compensate for the problem. I studied ballet and martial arts for years (martial arts for a much longer period of time, I dropped ballet pretty quickly, probably for social reasons instead of me actually disliking it). My legs have been rediculously strong ever since.
To the main point I'm getting at - Even in high school, when I "wanted" to play on the football team, there were so many factors going into it (several friends on the team, relatively good shape for my size, peer pressure, discipline and leg strength from martial arts, leg strength from ballet, strategy love from the years of chess, my years of studying hard allowing me to have a relatively easy time in high school which gave me free time for it, years of playing videogames allowing me to know how to get into "the zone" and focus completely at the task at hand, etc). Ultimately, I can't look back at it and simply think that it was merely my "choice", more like a logical culmination of many different events in my past led to that outcome. And I enjoyed it immensely, even though it really was an illusion of choice for me.
My parents always worked hard at making sure I would be able to do better for myself than they were able to do for themselves. Going to a post-secondary education was definitely the result of that hard work. My parents (and many people I knew) figured I would go into engineering by the time I was 4 years old. Initially, they thought I'd be better in mechanical or robotics engineering because I used to always be good at building and programming robots and stuff, but I'm in Civil. There are even reasons for this (I worked for a construction company doing roadwork for a summer and was amazed at how quickly that stuff could be done, I worked for a landscaper for a summer and was fascinated by what he was able to do, I have family in the industry, I've always been around people who are good at doing renovations, in grade 2 I built a bridge as a school project that could hold my weight, etc).
Even in University, my choice for being a frosh guide this year wasn't simply just me deciding to sign up without any influence on the reason - I've got several friends who are involved in our student society and plans the week (including a good friend of mine being the person who pretty much organized the week), I have these big-brother type instincts (thanks to having 3 much younger siblings, which I had to help raise when my dad passed away), memories of how awesome my frosh week was and obviously wanting to repeat it, etc.....
I've realized for a long time that I am the sum of all my previous experiences - they shape who I am and who I will become. I'm totally fine with that. To me, the "free choice" people seem to love is just an illusion.
Yeah, you totally have it as bad as the North Koreans, no choice whatsoever in your extra-curricular activities or fraternity.
It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all.
If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown.
Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency.
Are you truly free? Or has societal influences shaped your path so far? Really, really think hard about this.
When you were younger, what did you do? Were you on any sports teams? What were your extracurricular activities? What were your hobbies? How good were your grades? Did you always do your homework? Did you discover any particular strengths and talents you had when you were younger?
Did these somehow shape where you went later on in your life? If some of those things were different, would you be where you are now?
Their type of system seems to take it one step further, that's all. They figure out which path you should be in (they described it as "peasant", "worker", and "intellectual"). From there, they probably figure out some particular strand you should be in, based on your strengths/weaknesses and talents, and this keeps going until they find something useful in society for you to do, regardless of what your strengths/weakness or skills are. It would put people in positions where they can be successful. And when you've been successful at something, you take pride in it. They may not have the same "freedom" that you have, but if they're happy, does it actually matter?
I know you watched that documentary and saw the smiling kid doing her best to try to preform in front of the great leader.
But what about those kids who don't want to be a gymnast? What about the peasants of dreams to go to school and live a good life?
They have no choice.
Sure you can get all ivory tower and question if free will actually exists. But the stark reality of repression is pretty depressing
It wasn't just the smiling kid, it was the other people who were filmed as well. TBH, I payed more attention to what the adults said, and how they acted, more than her.....
It shows what that type of society is capable of.
Of course, starving your population is not a good practice..... I did say that there are some problems with the country (and that's a pretty big one). Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well..... Pointing out one fault in a system doesn't help, when other systems that you'd like to think are "better" still have that problem.....
Capitalism = The Poor get screwed over Communism= Everyone but the rich and powerful gets screwed over.
Overall, capitalism benefits far more people. Also, the poor in modern society has a chance for vertical social movement. NK they get a chance to work in the gulags.
There are definitely a lot of things wrong with the country, no doubt. But you can't simply say a system is soley better because "more people don't get screwed over", can you? Because if you go by that logic, Capitalism is fucking terrible compared to Socialism, because nobody gets screwed over. Downside is that the drive for improvements is no longer as dominant, since the monetary issue is pretty much off the table. but, hey, at least nobody gets screwed over, right?
And, yea, people get screwed over in the USA (and in Canada as well), it's just that it's more difficult to see, and it's not as severe. There are still people living on the streets, begging for meals in many cities in Canada.....
Because I have realized that I'm quite happy and content with where I am and what I have.
Can't you be quiet happy and content also in North Korea?
The government, will decide your decisions for you! You can take pride in working in the Gulags! And also the government will take away all that food you 'really don't need'. I can't see why you wouldn't want to go
Socialism is better right?
Did you even watch that TED talk I linked?
Of course, I could drop out of university, book a ticket to China, find my way to the border and somehow get myself into NK and start begging on the streets if I wanted to. But look at the other option - I don't drop out, I get a degree, get a job, and live a decent life.
Do I really have a choice?
It's an illusion of choice. Sure, you can make a choice like "oh, I'll get a pizza instead of a burger", or something similar, but any main, important thing in your life is pretty much an illusion.
Lotta info to get to a big point incoming:
I was born into a household where both of my parents did not have university educations. My mother had taken some college courses, however. Both of my parents, nonetheless, had successful jobs. My mother decided to trade in her job to be a housewife at one point when I was younger. Because of the job she did have, I was exposed to computer systems at an age of 18 months. I've learned how to use computers to a decent level (nothing close to R1CH, he's a fucking god). I was also introduced to videogaming through computers. She also made sure that I was good in school, I was a straight A student (with the exception of any courses in French).
Because my father was a very hands-on person, I learned a lot of stuff from him. He was also a high level chess player, and I used to play him a lot, and after a while, it became less about looking at individual moves, and looking at combinations, then it went to recognizing tempo, then it went to recognizing minute positional advantages, and then it started to become almost instinctual, I was able to simply remember situations and know what the best response was, without thinking about it.
Both of my parents pretty much forced me into extracurricular activities. I was involved in learning the piano at one point, I played soccer, etc. I met some of my best friends through these things.
I was born with a slight problem with my knees. The choices were either surgery (which was not 100% guaranteed to work, and was rather experimental at the time), braces like Forrest Gump had, or taking years of dance/gymnastics/martial arts to strengthen my legs to compensate for the problem. I studied ballet and martial arts for years (martial arts for a much longer period of time, I dropped ballet pretty quickly, probably for social reasons instead of me actually disliking it). My legs have been rediculously strong ever since.
To the main point I'm getting at - Even in high school, when I "wanted" to play on the football team, there were so many factors going into it (several friends on the team, relatively good shape for my size, peer pressure, discipline and leg strength from martial arts, leg strength from ballet, strategy love from the years of chess, my years of studying hard allowing me to have a relatively easy time in high school which gave me free time for it, years of playing videogames allowing me to know how to get into "the zone" and focus completely at the task at hand, etc). Ultimately, I can't look back at it and simply think that it was merely my "choice", more like a logical culmination of many different events in my past led to that outcome. And I enjoyed it immensely, even though it really was an illusion of choice for me.
My parents always worked hard at making sure I would be able to do better for myself than they were able to do for themselves. Going to a post-secondary education was definitely the result of that hard work. My parents (and many people I knew) figured I would go into engineering by the time I was 4 years old. Initially, they thought I'd be better in mechanical or robotics engineering because I used to always be good at building and programming robots and stuff, but I'm in Civil. There are even reasons for this (I worked for a construction company doing roadwork for a summer and was amazed at how quickly that stuff could be done, I worked for a landscaper for a summer and was fascinated by what he was able to do, I have family in the industry, I've always been around people who are good at doing renovations, in grade 2 I built a bridge as a school project that could hold my weight, etc).
Even in University, my choice for being a frosh guide this year wasn't simply just me deciding to sign up without any influence on the reason - I've got several friends who are involved in our student society and plans the week (including a good friend of mine being the person who pretty much organized the week), I have these big-brother type instincts (thanks to having 3 much younger siblings, which I had to help raise when my dad passed away), memories of how awesome my frosh week was and obviously wanting to repeat it, etc.....
I've realized for a long time that I am the sum of all my previous experiences - they shape who I am and who I will become. I'm totally fine with that. To me, the "free choice" people seem to love is just an illusion.
Yeah, you totally have it as bad as the North Koreans, no choice whatsoever in your extra-curricular activities or fraternity.
Dude, come on.
Did I say I have it bad?
I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation.
This is like some kind of mental calisthenics...
I think I understand what you are saying about people not needing freedom of choice to find happiness. You say choice is an illusion and I would argue that happiness is a frivolous pursuit anyway.
I think where people are taking issue is that you seem to redeem the NK system based on the seemingly happy hand-picked servants who get to participate in the dance routines. If this was reflective of general NK society, I think you would get more people on board. But to say the NK system is something that other societies could learn from, grievances notwithstanding, is preposterous. NK doesn't have "a few problems", it completely disregards the notion of human rights in measures far beyond the "freedom of choice" you take issue with.
On November 25 2010 14:42 Impervious wrote: Did I say I have it bad?
I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation.
This is like some kind of mental calisthenics...
I think I understand what you are saying about people not needing freedom of choice to find happiness. You say choice is an illusion and I would argue that happiness is a frivolous pursuit anyway.
I think where people are taking issue is that you seem to redeem the NK system based on the seemingly happy hand-picked servants who get to participate in the dance routines. If this was reflective of general NK society, I think you would get more people on board. But to say the NK system is something that other societies could learn from, grievances notwithstanding, is preposterous. NK doesn't have "a few problems", it completely disregards the notion of human rights in measures far beyond the "freedom of choice" you take issue with.
Point about the pursuit of happiness taken.
I wasn't looking at just the girls that were shown, i was intentionally paying more attention to the people who weren't in the spotlight. Specifically, I watched the part with the cooperative farm a couple of times.
Also, I said in my very first response in the thread:
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I bolded the key part. Specific things they do could be learned from. Not adopt the entire system (for so many obvious reasons that I don't even want to begin start listing them). But to disregard something they do right because of what they do wrong is really, really dumb.
It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all.
If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown.
Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency.
Are you truly free? Or has societal influences shaped your path so far? Really, really think hard about this.
When you were younger, what did you do? Were you on any sports teams? What were your extracurricular activities? What were your hobbies? How good were your grades? Did you always do your homework? Did you discover any particular strengths and talents you had when you were younger?
Did these somehow shape where you went later on in your life? If some of those things were different, would you be where you are now?
Their type of system seems to take it one step further, that's all. They figure out which path you should be in (they described it as "peasant", "worker", and "intellectual"). From there, they probably figure out some particular strand you should be in, based on your strengths/weaknesses and talents, and this keeps going until they find something useful in society for you to do, regardless of what your strengths/weakness or skills are. It would put people in positions where they can be successful. And when you've been successful at something, you take pride in it. They may not have the same "freedom" that you have, but if they're happy, does it actually matter?
I know you watched that documentary and saw the smiling kid doing her best to try to preform in front of the great leader.
But what about those kids who don't want to be a gymnast? What about the peasants of dreams to go to school and live a good life?
They have no choice.
Sure you can get all ivory tower and question if free will actually exists. But the stark reality of repression is pretty depressing
It wasn't just the smiling kid, it was the other people who were filmed as well. TBH, I payed more attention to what the adults said, and how they acted, more than her.....
It shows what that type of society is capable of.
Of course, starving your population is not a good practice..... I did say that there are some problems with the country (and that's a pretty big one). Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well..... Pointing out one fault in a system doesn't help, when other systems that you'd like to think are "better" still have that problem.....
Capitalism = The Poor get screwed over Communism= Everyone but the rich and powerful gets screwed over.
Overall, capitalism benefits far more people. Also, the poor in modern society has a chance for vertical social movement. NK they get a chance to work in the gulags.
There are definitely a lot of things wrong with the country, no doubt. But you can't simply say a system is soley better because "more people don't get screwed over", can you? Because if you go by that logic, Capitalism is fucking terrible compared to Socialism, because nobody gets screwed over. Downside is that the drive for improvements is no longer as dominant, since the monetary issue is pretty much off the table. but, hey, at least nobody gets screwed over, right?
And, yea, people get screwed over in the USA (and in Canada as well), it's just that it's more difficult to see, and it's not as severe. There are still people living on the streets, begging for meals in many cities in Canada.....
Because I have realized that I'm quite happy and content with where I am and what I have.
Can't you be quiet happy and content also in North Korea?
The government, will decide your decisions for you! You can take pride in working in the Gulags! And also the government will take away all that food you 'really don't need'. I can't see why you wouldn't want to go
Socialism is better right?
Did you even watch that TED talk I linked?
Of course, I could drop out of university, book a ticket to China, find my way to the border and somehow get myself into NK and start begging on the streets if I wanted to. But look at the other option - I don't drop out, I get a degree, get a job, and live a decent life.
Do I really have a choice?
It's an illusion of choice. Sure, you can make a choice like "oh, I'll get a pizza instead of a burger", or something similar, but any main, important thing in your life is pretty much an illusion.
Lotta info to get to a big point incoming:
I was born into a household where both of my parents did not have university educations. My mother had taken some college courses, however. Both of my parents, nonetheless, had successful jobs. My mother decided to trade in her job to be a housewife at one point when I was younger. Because of the job she did have, I was exposed to computer systems at an age of 18 months. I've learned how to use computers to a decent level (nothing close to R1CH, he's a fucking god). I was also introduced to videogaming through computers. She also made sure that I was good in school, I was a straight A student (with the exception of any courses in French).
Because my father was a very hands-on person, I learned a lot of stuff from him. He was also a high level chess player, and I used to play him a lot, and after a while, it became less about looking at individual moves, and looking at combinations, then it went to recognizing tempo, then it went to recognizing minute positional advantages, and then it started to become almost instinctual, I was able to simply remember situations and know what the best response was, without thinking about it.
Both of my parents pretty much forced me into extracurricular activities. I was involved in learning the piano at one point, I played soccer, etc. I met some of my best friends through these things.
I was born with a slight problem with my knees. The choices were either surgery (which was not 100% guaranteed to work, and was rather experimental at the time), braces like Forrest Gump had, or taking years of dance/gymnastics/martial arts to strengthen my legs to compensate for the problem. I studied ballet and martial arts for years (martial arts for a much longer period of time, I dropped ballet pretty quickly, probably for social reasons instead of me actually disliking it). My legs have been rediculously strong ever since.
To the main point I'm getting at - Even in high school, when I "wanted" to play on the football team, there were so many factors going into it (several friends on the team, relatively good shape for my size, peer pressure, discipline and leg strength from martial arts, leg strength from ballet, strategy love from the years of chess, my years of studying hard allowing me to have a relatively easy time in high school which gave me free time for it, years of playing videogames allowing me to know how to get into "the zone" and focus completely at the task at hand, etc). Ultimately, I can't look back at it and simply think that it was merely my "choice", more like a logical culmination of many different events in my past led to that outcome. And I enjoyed it immensely, even though it really was an illusion of choice for me.
My parents always worked hard at making sure I would be able to do better for myself than they were able to do for themselves. Going to a post-secondary education was definitely the result of that hard work. My parents (and many people I knew) figured I would go into engineering by the time I was 4 years old. Initially, they thought I'd be better in mechanical or robotics engineering because I used to always be good at building and programming robots and stuff, but I'm in Civil. There are even reasons for this (I worked for a construction company doing roadwork for a summer and was amazed at how quickly that stuff could be done, I worked for a landscaper for a summer and was fascinated by what he was able to do, I have family in the industry, I've always been around people who are good at doing renovations, in grade 2 I built a bridge as a school project that could hold my weight, etc).
Even in University, my choice for being a frosh guide this year wasn't simply just me deciding to sign up without any influence on the reason - I've got several friends who are involved in our student society and plans the week (including a good friend of mine being the person who pretty much organized the week), I have these big-brother type instincts (thanks to having 3 much younger siblings, which I had to help raise when my dad passed away), memories of how awesome my frosh week was and obviously wanting to repeat it, etc.....
I've realized for a long time that I am the sum of all my previous experiences - they shape who I am and who I will become. I'm totally fine with that. To me, the "free choice" people seem to love is just an illusion.
Yeah, you totally have it as bad as the North Koreans, no choice whatsoever in your extra-curricular activities or fraternity.
Dude, come on.
Did I say I have it bad?
I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation.
Okay, so maybe let's stop saying that the North Koreans are happy and it wouldn't matter if they had "the illusion of free choice".
it is a documentary about 2 NK girls preparing for the Arirang Mass Games. It's very revealing and, if u can see through the facade that the state is trying to present, very frightening.
I just finished watching it, and took a few minutes to gather my thoughts, before replying to this.
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I don't see a problem with their system (not that I prefer it over democracy, however). There are definitely several faults with the country, however. They have a leader that is more concerned with preserving his interests than bettering the individual and becoming more powerful as a group. Their devotion is centered around a hatred of the US (which is reasonable, since they were on the recieving end of US tech during their attempt at reunifying the country, and the leaders capitalized on that to unify the people's resolve in the tough times that followed). Everyone being cutoff from information from the rest of the world also hurts, since they will never know what is going on internationally, nor what has happened since the war, unless the leaders let them know about it (do they even know that the US put men on the moon, as an example of what I mean). While limiting public information is definitely a useful thing in some cases (lets face it, not many people are in the need to know about many things that happen, for security and safety reasons), NK seems to have taken it far too far. Being self-sufficient is definitely a desireable quality that any country should strive for, however, every country (for geographical, social, or other reasons) is better at some things than other, and trade between countries can help both involved, and being in a situation where there is next to no outside contact or trade definitely hurts the country. There is definitely a lot of room for improvement of NK. Then again, the same can be said for every country on earth, don't forget that.
It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all.
If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown.
Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency.
Are you truly free? Or has societal influences shaped your path so far? Really, really think hard about this.
When you were younger, what did you do? Were you on any sports teams? What were your extracurricular activities? What were your hobbies? How good were your grades? Did you always do your homework? Did you discover any particular strengths and talents you had when you were younger?
Did these somehow shape where you went later on in your life? If some of those things were different, would you be where you are now?
Their type of system seems to take it one step further, that's all. They figure out which path you should be in (they described it as "peasant", "worker", and "intellectual"). From there, they probably figure out some particular strand you should be in, based on your strengths/weaknesses and talents, and this keeps going until they find something useful in society for you to do, regardless of what your strengths/weakness or skills are. It would put people in positions where they can be successful. And when you've been successful at something, you take pride in it. They may not have the same "freedom" that you have, but if they're happy, does it actually matter?
I know you watched that documentary and saw the smiling kid doing her best to try to preform in front of the great leader.
But what about those kids who don't want to be a gymnast? What about the peasants of dreams to go to school and live a good life?
They have no choice.
Sure you can get all ivory tower and question if free will actually exists. But the stark reality of repression is pretty depressing
It wasn't just the smiling kid, it was the other people who were filmed as well. TBH, I payed more attention to what the adults said, and how they acted, more than her.....
It shows what that type of society is capable of.
Of course, starving your population is not a good practice..... I did say that there are some problems with the country (and that's a pretty big one). Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well..... Pointing out one fault in a system doesn't help, when other systems that you'd like to think are "better" still have that problem.....
Capitalism = The Poor get screwed over Communism= Everyone but the rich and powerful gets screwed over.
Overall, capitalism benefits far more people. Also, the poor in modern society has a chance for vertical social movement. NK they get a chance to work in the gulags.
There are definitely a lot of things wrong with the country, no doubt. But you can't simply say a system is soley better because "more people don't get screwed over", can you? Because if you go by that logic, Capitalism is fucking terrible compared to Socialism, because nobody gets screwed over. Downside is that the drive for improvements is no longer as dominant, since the monetary issue is pretty much off the table. but, hey, at least nobody gets screwed over, right?
And, yea, people get screwed over in the USA (and in Canada as well), it's just that it's more difficult to see, and it's not as severe. There are still people living on the streets, begging for meals in many cities in Canada.....
Because I have realized that I'm quite happy and content with where I am and what I have.
Can't you be quiet happy and content also in North Korea?
The government, will decide your decisions for you! You can take pride in working in the Gulags! And also the government will take away all that food you 'really don't need'. I can't see why you wouldn't want to go
Socialism is better right?
Did you even watch that TED talk I linked?
Of course, I could drop out of university, book a ticket to China, find my way to the border and somehow get myself into NK and start begging on the streets if I wanted to. But look at the other option - I don't drop out, I get a degree, get a job, and live a decent life.
Do I really have a choice?
It's an illusion of choice. Sure, you can make a choice like "oh, I'll get a pizza instead of a burger", or something similar, but any main, important thing in your life is pretty much an illusion.
Lotta info to get to a big point incoming:
I was born into a household where both of my parents did not have university educations. My mother had taken some college courses, however. Both of my parents, nonetheless, had successful jobs. My mother decided to trade in her job to be a housewife at one point when I was younger. Because of the job she did have, I was exposed to computer systems at an age of 18 months. I've learned how to use computers to a decent level (nothing close to R1CH, he's a fucking god). I was also introduced to videogaming through computers. She also made sure that I was good in school, I was a straight A student (with the exception of any courses in French).
Because my father was a very hands-on person, I learned a lot of stuff from him. He was also a high level chess player, and I used to play him a lot, and after a while, it became less about looking at individual moves, and looking at combinations, then it went to recognizing tempo, then it went to recognizing minute positional advantages, and then it started to become almost instinctual, I was able to simply remember situations and know what the best response was, without thinking about it.
Both of my parents pretty much forced me into extracurricular activities. I was involved in learning the piano at one point, I played soccer, etc. I met some of my best friends through these things.
I was born with a slight problem with my knees. The choices were either surgery (which was not 100% guaranteed to work, and was rather experimental at the time), braces like Forrest Gump had, or taking years of dance/gymnastics/martial arts to strengthen my legs to compensate for the problem. I studied ballet and martial arts for years (martial arts for a much longer period of time, I dropped ballet pretty quickly, probably for social reasons instead of me actually disliking it). My legs have been rediculously strong ever since.
To the main point I'm getting at - Even in high school, when I "wanted" to play on the football team, there were so many factors going into it (several friends on the team, relatively good shape for my size, peer pressure, discipline and leg strength from martial arts, leg strength from ballet, strategy love from the years of chess, my years of studying hard allowing me to have a relatively easy time in high school which gave me free time for it, years of playing videogames allowing me to know how to get into "the zone" and focus completely at the task at hand, etc). Ultimately, I can't look back at it and simply think that it was merely my "choice", more like a logical culmination of many different events in my past led to that outcome. And I enjoyed it immensely, even though it really was an illusion of choice for me.
My parents always worked hard at making sure I would be able to do better for myself than they were able to do for themselves. Going to a post-secondary education was definitely the result of that hard work. My parents (and many people I knew) figured I would go into engineering by the time I was 4 years old. Initially, they thought I'd be better in mechanical or robotics engineering because I used to always be good at building and programming robots and stuff, but I'm in Civil. There are even reasons for this (I worked for a construction company doing roadwork for a summer and was amazed at how quickly that stuff could be done, I worked for a landscaper for a summer and was fascinated by what he was able to do, I have family in the industry, I've always been around people who are good at doing renovations, in grade 2 I built a bridge as a school project that could hold my weight, etc).
Even in University, my choice for being a frosh guide this year wasn't simply just me deciding to sign up without any influence on the reason - I've got several friends who are involved in our student society and plans the week (including a good friend of mine being the person who pretty much organized the week), I have these big-brother type instincts (thanks to having 3 much younger siblings, which I had to help raise when my dad passed away), memories of how awesome my frosh week was and obviously wanting to repeat it, etc.....
I've realized for a long time that I am the sum of all my previous experiences - they shape who I am and who I will become. I'm totally fine with that. To me, the "free choice" people seem to love is just an illusion.
This has nothing to do with the point of this thread. The point of the thread was created to show us how horribly misguided we are about the way life in North Korea is. You continue to babble about free choice and how all we are is based on out experiences. How our choices are made from previous experiences we have had.
Congratulations. You have a working mind. You are now knowledgeable as to what you are. You are remnants from a supernova exploding X amount of billion years ago. You are the combination of comets, and gas solidified through billions of years, mutated over millions of generations. You are nothing worth while, as you and me are made from the same star. Both of our thoughts are made from chemical and electrical reactions in our tiny minds. But if you want to talk about that, then take it to another thread. Ok?
Once again, this thread is about North Korea, and how underpriveledged they are to suffer their entire existence under the totalitarian regime of the Peoples Republic of Korea. Where they are forever to be tortured, their children are to starve, and their wives to be trafficked.
This is about how ignorant the world is to North Korea, the most secretive state in the world. North Korea has committed 11 crimes against humanity including: murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation/forcible transportation of people, rape, sexual slavery, persecution, enforced disappearance of people, and others.
On top of that, all of the fertile land in North Korea which can be used to grow edible food to feed the country, and take care of their starvation issue, is used to grow opium. North Korea is one of the largest countries to export opiates used to create drugs all around the world.
You have concentration camps, 10x worse than those during the Nazi regime in World War II.
However, very few people are aware of just how bad it is in North Korea. If you say something against the government you are punished by death. North Korea even has a law if you THINK poorly about the government, even if you do not act upon these thoughts you will be punished by death.
There are no freedoms in north korea. There is no freedom of speech. There is no freedom of the press. There is no worker's rights, or freedom of religion. You are not allowed to move houses or visit family without approval of the government.
North Korea is in dire need from people all around the world. 300,000 North Korean refugees are hiding illegally on the eastern shore of China. There are children whose families have died and are living in the sewers of China, fearing deportation.
You have it nice. Without the internet for a month we would go crazy. Imagine not having a bite of food to eat for a month, while being tortured or chained in an abandoned building.
The least you can do is help other people know of the terrible conditions these underprivileged people who don't have any human rights, so one day things can change.
On November 25 2010 14:42 Impervious wrote: Did I say I have it bad?
I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation.
Okay, so maybe let's stop saying that the North Koreans are happy and it wouldn't matter if they had "the illusion of free choice".
Ok. This started with "totalitarian government gets rid of choice".
I then say "happiness is not directly related to choice (and there is evidence to this claim, some cases even show an inverse relationship), which is more important?".
Nobody answers this, instead a tangent about choice ensues.
All of a sudden you claim that I said North Koreans are happy and it wouldn't matter if they had the illusion of free choie?
In the USA, something like 90% of the money is in the hands of the top 10% of people. That's a pretty massive "elite", within the country. It seems to be pretty similar in NK, except the country as a whole is dirt fucking poor, so even though the "elite" look bad, the bottom look fucking terrible, and has a government that is really, really corrupt, pretty much controlled by the military, and only really concerned with preserving it's own interests at the expense of the people.
However, it still shows what can be achieved by that type of society. The people can still be happy with their lives, even without the freedoms that others enjoy. Hypothetically, if you could live and die either free and unhappy, or controlled but happy, what would you choose?
On November 25 2010 14:42 Impervious wrote: Did I say I have it bad?
I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation.
This is like some kind of mental calisthenics...
I think I understand what you are saying about people not needing freedom of choice to find happiness. You say choice is an illusion and I would argue that happiness is a frivolous pursuit anyway.
I think where people are taking issue is that you seem to redeem the NK system based on the seemingly happy hand-picked servants who get to participate in the dance routines. If this was reflective of general NK society, I think you would get more people on board. But to say the NK system is something that other societies could learn from, grievances notwithstanding, is preposterous. NK doesn't have "a few problems", it completely disregards the notion of human rights in measures far beyond the "freedom of choice" you take issue with.
Point about the pursuit of happiness taken.
I wasn't looking at just the girls that were shown, i was intentionally paying more attention to the people who weren't in the spotlight. Specifically, I watched the part with the cooperative farm a couple of times.
Also, I said in my very first response in the thread:
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I bolded the key part. Specific things they do could be learned from. Not adopt the entire system (for so many obvious reasons that I don't even want to begin start listing them). But to disregard something they do right because of what they do wrong is really, really dumb.
Taking your quote. Those are nice things you listed, but I could learn them from Germany if I needed the lesson. So while it may be a valid observation in absolution, it's certainly extraneous in a discussion about the merits of the North Korean system, where little concern is given as to whether or not people are content.
On November 25 2010 15:53 CaucasianAsian wrote: Once again, this thread is about North Korea, and how underpriveledged they are to suffer their entire existence under the totalitarian regime of the Peoples Republic of Korea. Where they are forever to be tortured, their children are to starve, and their wives to be trafficked.
This is about how ignorant the world is to North Korea, the most secretive state in the world. North Korea has committed 11 crimes against humanity including: murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation/forcible transportation of people, rape, sexual slavery, persecution, enforced disappearance of people, and others.
It's gotta be a lot higher than 11..... Why the UN hasn't done anything more severe about it is beyond me.....
On top of that, all of the fertile land in North Korea which can be used to grow edible food to feed the country, and take care of their starvation issue, is used to grow opium. North Korea is one of the largest countries to export opiates used to create drugs all around the world.
You have concentration camps, 10x worse than those during the Nazi regime in World War II.
Don't forget that it's caused by a massively corrupt government which only cares about its own interests, and it was created in part by the actions of both sides of the cold war. It's a fucking shame.
However, very few people are aware of just how bad it is in North Korea. If you say something against the government you are punished by death. North Korea even has a law if you THINK poorly about the government, even if you do not act upon these thoughts you will be punished by death.
There are no freedoms in north korea. There is no freedom of speech. There is no freedom of the press. There is no worker's rights, or freedom of religion. You are not allowed to move houses or visit family without approval of the government.
North Korea is in dire need from people all around the world. 300,000 North Korean refugees are hiding illegally on the eastern shore of China. There are children whose families have died and are living in the sewers of China, fearing deportation.
You have it nice. Without the internet for a month we would go crazy. Imagine not having a bite of food to eat for a month, while being tortured or chained in an abandoned building.
The least you can do is help other people know of the terrible conditions these underprivileged people who don't have any human rights, so one day things can change.
And not learning anything from the society that created these atrocious situations would basically condemn those people to dying in vain.
On November 25 2010 14:42 Impervious wrote: Did I say I have it bad?
I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation.
This is like some kind of mental calisthenics...
I think I understand what you are saying about people not needing freedom of choice to find happiness. You say choice is an illusion and I would argue that happiness is a frivolous pursuit anyway.
I think where people are taking issue is that you seem to redeem the NK system based on the seemingly happy hand-picked servants who get to participate in the dance routines. If this was reflective of general NK society, I think you would get more people on board. But to say the NK system is something that other societies could learn from, grievances notwithstanding, is preposterous. NK doesn't have "a few problems", it completely disregards the notion of human rights in measures far beyond the "freedom of choice" you take issue with.
Point about the pursuit of happiness taken.
I wasn't looking at just the girls that were shown, i was intentionally paying more attention to the people who weren't in the spotlight. Specifically, I watched the part with the cooperative farm a couple of times.
Also, I said in my very first response in the thread:
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I bolded the key part. Specific things they do could be learned from. Not adopt the entire system (for so many obvious reasons that I don't even want to begin start listing them). But to disregard something they do right because of what they do wrong is really, really dumb.
Taking your quote. Those are nice things you listed, but I could learn them from Germany if I needed the lesson. So while it may be a valid observation in absolution, it's certainly extraneous in a discussion about the merits of the North Korean system, where little concern is given as to whether or not people are content.
It's true, other totalitarian regimes have had similar positives to them. Maybe there's a reason for it, and it should be studied rather than outright dismissed? What is it that gets people to work together better than in a capitalist society (which would increase the production capacity of a society)? What is it that allows them to be happy/content with much worse living conditions than would be acceptable in other societies, and is it possible to make people happier with what they have (possibly reducing depression and increasing the percieved standard of living)? Is it possible to instill discipline to the average person (which should reduce crime rates and decrease costs associated to the legal system, policing, penal systems, etc) in other types of societies by using similar techniques? Etc.....
Germany was an excellent example of this. Far better than NK is. But that's another topic.
On November 25 2010 14:42 Impervious wrote: Did I say I have it bad?
I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation.
Okay, so maybe let's stop saying that the North Koreans are happy and it wouldn't matter if they had "the illusion of free choice".
Ok. This started with "totalitarian government gets rid of choice".
I then say "happiness is not directly related to choice (and there is evidence to this claim, some cases even show an inverse relationship), which is more important?".
Nobody answers this, instead a tangent about choice ensues.
All of a sudden you claim that I said North Koreans are happy and it wouldn't matter if they had the illusion of free choie?
In the USA, something like 90% of the money is in the hands of the top 10% of people. That's a pretty massive "elite", within the country. It seems to be pretty similar in NK, except the country as a whole is dirt fucking poor, so even though the "elite" look bad, the bottom look fucking terrible, and has a government that is really, really corrupt, pretty much controlled by the military, and only really concerned with preserving it's own interests at the expense of the people.
However, it still shows what can be achieved by that type of society. The people can still be happy with their lives, even without the freedoms that others enjoy. Hypothetically, if you could live and die either free and unhappy, or controlled but happy, what would you choose?
What part of North Korea's situation makes you think any of their citizens are happy? Do you not understand that in a STATE SPONSORED TOUR they will not show you torture, starvation, rape and poverty? Do you think these people would be "happy" if they were not chosen to represent North Korea to foreigners?
Please stop subverting this thread in an attempt to "win it". None of us care about hypotheticals or theoreticals or anything you learned in your sociology and political science courses. This is about North Korea having living conditions which are a humanitarian catastrophe and you are skirting this basic issue by focusing on the idea that choice doesn't make us happy and sociology 101 concepts like the 90/10 phenomenon.
[edit] Also, I'm removing myself from this thread. [/edit]
On November 25 2010 14:42 Impervious wrote: Did I say I have it bad?
I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation.
This is like some kind of mental calisthenics...
I think I understand what you are saying about people not needing freedom of choice to find happiness. You say choice is an illusion and I would argue that happiness is a frivolous pursuit anyway.
I think where people are taking issue is that you seem to redeem the NK system based on the seemingly happy hand-picked servants who get to participate in the dance routines. If this was reflective of general NK society, I think you would get more people on board. But to say the NK system is something that other societies could learn from, grievances notwithstanding, is preposterous. NK doesn't have "a few problems", it completely disregards the notion of human rights in measures far beyond the "freedom of choice" you take issue with.
Point about the pursuit of happiness taken.
I wasn't looking at just the girls that were shown, i was intentionally paying more attention to the people who weren't in the spotlight. Specifically, I watched the part with the cooperative farm a couple of times.
Also, I said in my very first response in the thread:
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I bolded the key part. Specific things they do could be learned from. Not adopt the entire system (for so many obvious reasons that I don't even want to begin start listing them). But to disregard something they do right because of what they do wrong is really, really dumb.
Taking your quote. Those are nice things you listed, but I could learn them from Germany if I needed the lesson. So while it may be a valid observation in absolution, it's certainly extraneous in a discussion about the merits of the North Korean system, where little concern is given as to whether or not people are content.
It's true, other totalitarian regimes have had similar positives to them. Maybe there's a reason for it, and it should be studied rather than outright dismissed? What is it that gets people to work together better than in a capitalist society (which would increase the production capacity of a society)? What is it that allows them to be happy/content with much worse living conditions than would be acceptable in other societies, and is it possible to make people happier with what they have (possibly reducing depression and increasing the percieved standard of living)? Is it possible to instill discipline to the average person (which should reduce crime rates and decrease costs associated to the legal system, policing, penal systems, etc) in other types of societies by using similar techniques? Etc.....
Germany was an excellent example of this. Far better than NK is. But that's another topic.
I meant modern-day Germany. And I would posture a rather short study would reveal that the very elements that lead to a minority being happy/content in an "efficient" system like North Koreas are causing much more misery for many more people. I won't dismiss it because it's of a certain political persuasion. I will dismiss it because it's cruel and reckless.
These "positives" you listed are features of individuals' attitudes, not political systems- and they can either be forced on people by a totalitarian government, or they can be nurtured and honored in a free society. Either way, I maintain that it bears no testament to the value of the North Korean political system.
Certainly you can and should "learn" from anything new or different that is put in front of you. That doesn't mean what you are learning from has anything good to offer.
On November 25 2010 14:42 Impervious wrote: Did I say I have it bad?
I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation.
Okay, so maybe let's stop saying that the North Koreans are happy and it wouldn't matter if they had "the illusion of free choice".
Ok. This started with "totalitarian government gets rid of choice".
I then say "happiness is not directly related to choice (and there is evidence to this claim, some cases even show an inverse relationship), which is more important?".
Nobody answers this, instead a tangent about choice ensues.
All of a sudden you claim that I said North Koreans are happy and it wouldn't matter if they had the illusion of free choie?
In the USA, something like 90% of the money is in the hands of the top 10% of people. That's a pretty massive "elite", within the country. It seems to be pretty similar in NK, except the country as a whole is dirt fucking poor, so even though the "elite" look bad, the bottom look fucking terrible, and has a government that is really, really corrupt, pretty much controlled by the military, and only really concerned with preserving it's own interests at the expense of the people.
However, it still shows what can be achieved by that type of society. The people can still be happy with their lives, even without the freedoms that others enjoy. Hypothetically, if you could live and die either free and unhappy, or controlled but happy, what would you choose?
What part of North Korea's situation makes you think any of their citizens are happy? Do you not understand that in a STATE SPONSORED TOUR they will not show you torture, starvation, rape and poverty? Do you think these people would be "happy" if they were not chosen to represent North Korea to foreigners?
Please stop subverting this thread in an attempt to "win it". None of us care about hypotheticals or theoreticals or anything you learned in your sociology and political science courses. This is about North Korea having living conditions which are a humanitarian catastrophe and you are skirting this basic issue by focusing on the idea that choice doesn't make us happy and sociology 101 concepts like the 90/10 phenomenon.
[edit] Also, I'm removing myself from this thread. [/edit]
Agreed. There are a multitude of far less sensitive, disturbing, and all round despicable issues that you could use to make your abstract philosophy argument. I find your comments in bad taste.
Impervious stop hijacking this thread with your idiotic rambling. The discussion is about North Korea not about your philosophical inquiry of free will as CaucasianAsian explained.
On November 25 2010 14:42 Impervious wrote: Did I say I have it bad?
I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation.
This is like some kind of mental calisthenics...
I think I understand what you are saying about people not needing freedom of choice to find happiness. You say choice is an illusion and I would argue that happiness is a frivolous pursuit anyway.
I think where people are taking issue is that you seem to redeem the NK system based on the seemingly happy hand-picked servants who get to participate in the dance routines. If this was reflective of general NK society, I think you would get more people on board. But to say the NK system is something that other societies could learn from, grievances notwithstanding, is preposterous. NK doesn't have "a few problems", it completely disregards the notion of human rights in measures far beyond the "freedom of choice" you take issue with.
Point about the pursuit of happiness taken.
I wasn't looking at just the girls that were shown, i was intentionally paying more attention to the people who weren't in the spotlight. Specifically, I watched the part with the cooperative farm a couple of times.
Also, I said in my very first response in the thread:
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I bolded the key part. Specific things they do could be learned from. Not adopt the entire system (for so many obvious reasons that I don't even want to begin start listing them). But to disregard something they do right because of what they do wrong is really, really dumb.
Taking your quote. Those are nice things you listed, but I could learn them from Germany if I needed the lesson. So while it may be a valid observation in absolution, it's certainly extraneous in a discussion about the merits of the North Korean system, where little concern is given as to whether or not people are content.
It's true, other totalitarian regimes have had similar positives to them. Maybe there's a reason for it, and it should be studied rather than outright dismissed? What is it that gets people to work together better than in a capitalist society (which would increase the production capacity of a society)? What is it that allows them to be happy/content with much worse living conditions than would be acceptable in other societies, and is it possible to make people happier with what they have (possibly reducing depression and increasing the percieved standard of living)? Is it possible to instill discipline to the average person (which should reduce crime rates and decrease costs associated to the legal system, policing, penal systems, etc) in other types of societies by using similar techniques? Etc.....
Germany was an excellent example of this. Far better than NK is. But that's another topic.
I find the reason to be quite obvious and along with violation of human rights, it's something all those regimes have in common, propaganda. The idea that their state/leader/race is so glorious gets implemanted into their head from childs age. They simply don't know any better, that's how the world is to them. Those videos were actualy about that anyway,
I don't know what to say really, I would have called you out on trolling after your first post, but you kept that up pretty long. How can you think that suppression, even if it can cause happiness under worse circumstances is in any way justifiable?
On November 25 2010 14:42 Impervious wrote: Did I say I have it bad?
I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation.
Okay, so maybe let's stop saying that the North Koreans are happy and it wouldn't matter if they had "the illusion of free choice".
Ok. This started with "totalitarian government gets rid of choice".
I then say "happiness is not directly related to choice (and there is evidence to this claim, some cases even show an inverse relationship), which is more important?".
Nobody answers this, instead a tangent about choice ensues.
All of a sudden you claim that I said North Koreans are happy and it wouldn't matter if they had the illusion of free choie?
In the USA, something like 90% of the money is in the hands of the top 10% of people. That's a pretty massive "elite", within the country. It seems to be pretty similar in NK, except the country as a whole is dirt fucking poor, so even though the "elite" look bad, the bottom look fucking terrible, and has a government that is really, really corrupt, pretty much controlled by the military, and only really concerned with preserving it's own interests at the expense of the people.
However, it still shows what can be achieved by that type of society. The people can still be happy with their lives, even without the freedoms that others enjoy. Hypothetically, if you could live and die either free and unhappy, or controlled but happy, what would you choose?
What part of North Korea's situation makes you think any of their citizens are happy? Do you not understand that in a STATE SPONSORED TOUR they will not show you torture, starvation, rape and poverty? Do you think these people would be "happy" if they were not chosen to represent North Korea to foreigners?
Please stop subverting this thread in an attempt to "win it". None of us care about hypotheticals or theoreticals or anything you learned in your sociology and political science courses. This is about North Korea having living conditions which are a humanitarian catastrophe and you are skirting this basic issue by focusing on the idea that choice doesn't make us happy and sociology 101 concepts like the 90/10 phenomenon.
[edit] Also, I'm removing myself from this thread. [/edit]
Agreed. There are a multitude of far less sensitive, disturbing, and all round despicable issues that you could use to make your abstract philosophy argument. I find your comments in bad taste.
Is that from a knee-jerk reaction to what you saw? Or did you actually think about it?
Because, clearly, when I point out that they do seem to do some things right, it means that I think their situation is completely acceptable.
it is a documentary about 2 NK girls preparing for the Arirang Mass Games. It's very revealing and, if u can see through the facade that the state is trying to present, very frightening.
I just finished watching it, and took a few minutes to gather my thoughts, before replying to this.
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I don't see a problem with their system (not that I prefer it over democracy, however). There are definitely several faults with the country, however. They have a leader that is more concerned with preserving his interests than bettering the individual and becoming more powerful as a group. Their devotion is centered around a hatred of the US (which is reasonable, since they were on the recieving end of US tech during their attempt at reunifying the country, and the leaders capitalized on that to unify the people's resolve in the tough times that followed). Everyone being cutoff from information from the rest of the world also hurts, since they will never know what is going on internationally, nor what has happened since the war, unless the leaders let them know about it (do they even know that the US put men on the moon, as an example of what I mean). While limiting public information is definitely a useful thing in some cases (lets face it, not many people are in the need to know about many things that happen, for security and safety reasons), NK seems to have taken it far too far. Being self-sufficient is definitely a desireable quality that any country should strive for, however, every country (for geographical, social, or other reasons) is better at some things than other, and trade between countries can help both involved, and being in a situation where there is next to no outside contact or trade definitely hurts the country. There is definitely a lot of room for improvement of NK. Then again, the same can be said for every country on earth, don't forget that.
It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all.
If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown.
Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency.
Are you truly free? Or has societal influences shaped your path so far? Really, really think hard about this.
When you were younger, what did you do? Were you on any sports teams? What were your extracurricular activities? What were your hobbies? How good were your grades? Did you always do your homework? Did you discover any particular strengths and talents you had when you were younger?
Did these somehow shape where you went later on in your life? If some of those things were different, would you be where you are now?
Their type of system seems to take it one step further, that's all. They figure out which path you should be in (they described it as "peasant", "worker", and "intellectual"). From there, they probably figure out some particular strand you should be in, based on your strengths/weaknesses and talents, and this keeps going until they find something useful in society for you to do, regardless of what your strengths/weakness or skills are. It would put people in positions where they can be successful. And when you've been successful at something, you take pride in it. They may not have the same "freedom" that you have, but if they're happy, does it actually matter?
I know you watched that documentary and saw the smiling kid doing her best to try to preform in front of the great leader.
But what about those kids who don't want to be a gymnast? What about the peasants of dreams to go to school and live a good life?
They have no choice.
Sure you can get all ivory tower and question if free will actually exists. But the stark reality of repression is pretty depressing
It wasn't just the smiling kid, it was the other people who were filmed as well. TBH, I payed more attention to what the adults said, and how they acted, more than her.....
It shows what that type of society is capable of.
Of course, starving your population is not a good practice..... I did say that there are some problems with the country (and that's a pretty big one). Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well..... Pointing out one fault in a system doesn't help, when other systems that you'd like to think are "better" still have that problem.....
Capitalism = The Poor get screwed over Communism= Everyone but the rich and powerful gets screwed over.
Overall, capitalism benefits far more people. Also, the poor in modern society has a chance for vertical social movement. NK they get a chance to work in the gulags.
There are definitely a lot of things wrong with the country, no doubt. But you can't simply say a system is soley better because "more people don't get screwed over", can you? Because if you go by that logic, Capitalism is fucking terrible compared to Socialism, because nobody gets screwed over. Downside is that the drive for improvements is no longer as dominant, since the monetary issue is pretty much off the table. but, hey, at least nobody gets screwed over, right?
And, yea, people get screwed over in the USA (and in Canada as well), it's just that it's more difficult to see, and it's not as severe. There are still people living on the streets, begging for meals in many cities in Canada.....
Because I have realized that I'm quite happy and content with where I am and what I have.
Can't you be quiet happy and content also in North Korea?
The government, will decide your decisions for you! You can take pride in working in the Gulags! And also the government will take away all that food you 'really don't need'. I can't see why you wouldn't want to go
Socialism is better right?
Did you even watch that TED talk I linked?
Of course, I could drop out of university, book a ticket to China, find my way to the border and somehow get myself into NK and start begging on the streets if I wanted to. But look at the other option - I don't drop out, I get a degree, get a job, and live a decent life.
Do I really have a choice?
It's an illusion of choice. Sure, you can make a choice like "oh, I'll get a pizza instead of a burger", or something similar, but any main, important thing in your life is pretty much an illusion.
Lotta info to get to a big point incoming:
I was born into a household where both of my parents did not have university educations. My mother had taken some college courses, however. Both of my parents, nonetheless, had successful jobs. My mother decided to trade in her job to be a housewife at one point when I was younger. Because of the job she did have, I was exposed to computer systems at an age of 18 months. I've learned how to use computers to a decent level (nothing close to R1CH, he's a fucking god). I was also introduced to videogaming through computers. She also made sure that I was good in school, I was a straight A student (with the exception of any courses in French).
Because my father was a very hands-on person, I learned a lot of stuff from him. He was also a high level chess player, and I used to play him a lot, and after a while, it became less about looking at individual moves, and looking at combinations, then it went to recognizing tempo, then it went to recognizing minute positional advantages, and then it started to become almost instinctual, I was able to simply remember situations and know what the best response was, without thinking about it.
Both of my parents pretty much forced me into extracurricular activities. I was involved in learning the piano at one point, I played soccer, etc. I met some of my best friends through these things.
I was born with a slight problem with my knees. The choices were either surgery (which was not 100% guaranteed to work, and was rather experimental at the time), braces like Forrest Gump had, or taking years of dance/gymnastics/martial arts to strengthen my legs to compensate for the problem. I studied ballet and martial arts for years (martial arts for a much longer period of time, I dropped ballet pretty quickly, probably for social reasons instead of me actually disliking it). My legs have been rediculously strong ever since.
To the main point I'm getting at - Even in high school, when I "wanted" to play on the football team, there were so many factors going into it (several friends on the team, relatively good shape for my size, peer pressure, discipline and leg strength from martial arts, leg strength from ballet, strategy love from the years of chess, my years of studying hard allowing me to have a relatively easy time in high school which gave me free time for it, years of playing videogames allowing me to know how to get into "the zone" and focus completely at the task at hand, etc). Ultimately, I can't look back at it and simply think that it was merely my "choice", more like a logical culmination of many different events in my past led to that outcome. And I enjoyed it immensely, even though it really was an illusion of choice for me.
My parents always worked hard at making sure I would be able to do better for myself than they were able to do for themselves. Going to a post-secondary education was definitely the result of that hard work. My parents (and many people I knew) figured I would go into engineering by the time I was 4 years old. Initially, they thought I'd be better in mechanical or robotics engineering because I used to always be good at building and programming robots and stuff, but I'm in Civil. There are even reasons for this (I worked for a construction company doing roadwork for a summer and was amazed at how quickly that stuff could be done, I worked for a landscaper for a summer and was fascinated by what he was able to do, I have family in the industry, I've always been around people who are good at doing renovations, in grade 2 I built a bridge as a school project that could hold my weight, etc).
Even in University, my choice for being a frosh guide this year wasn't simply just me deciding to sign up without any influence on the reason - I've got several friends who are involved in our student society and plans the week (including a good friend of mine being the person who pretty much organized the week), I have these big-brother type instincts (thanks to having 3 much younger siblings, which I had to help raise when my dad passed away), memories of how awesome my frosh week was and obviously wanting to repeat it, etc.....
I've realized for a long time that I am the sum of all my previous experiences - they shape who I am and who I will become. I'm totally fine with that. To me, the "free choice" people seem to love is just an illusion.
Ok dude nice writing, you could write a blog. Anyways i think it's bullshit, because you can choose what to do and then it will shape you based on experiences you get from it. Let's say i decide to move to Africa now blah blah.. it will shape my person differently than living in Europe, so basically i can choose if i want to live european life-style or go to remote farm in africa and take care of the animals there. North Koreans are far far far away from any similar decision possibility.
My personal opinion is that you can do and become whatever you want, achievement boundary is almost not limited.... as long as you work hard on it and give it all you can. Another condition is that you need to have the freedom to actually choose the way you want to go, which you certainly don't have in North Korea.
Seems to me that many people here can't even imagine how is it like over there....we used to be communist country and let's say you couldn't do shit unless you were in the communist party. Any private property was taken away and if your parents had any record like being in some demonstration or any anti-party movement, capitalistic ideas or stuff - you had no chance to get education or any decent job. Well if i compare it to the options i have nowadays, i can certainly say choice is not an illusion, it is pretty damned real !
North Korea is like 100 times worse than anything i have described. The kid has no choice at all since it is born. Not even damn choice what to learn, they are tought only the propaganda and pro-communistic, koran ideas. I can choose what i want to study and learn and that i think is...as you called it... main, important thing in my life that shapes my individuality.
EDIT: thanks Caucasianasian, you described it much more detailed. I just wanted to say that people have no idea how bad the regime can be...By the way if a person commits crime (believe me that every little shit you do every day is considered crime in N.Korea), 3 generations from that person's family are punished...3 freaking generations. No wonder people do all the ridiculous shit you see in the documents and obey the leader absolutely.
On November 25 2010 14:42 Impervious wrote: Did I say I have it bad?
I'm lucky as fuck for being born in my situation.
Okay, so maybe let's stop saying that the North Koreans are happy and it wouldn't matter if they had "the illusion of free choice".
Ok. This started with "totalitarian government gets rid of choice".
I then say "happiness is not directly related to choice (and there is evidence to this claim, some cases even show an inverse relationship), which is more important?".
Nobody answers this, instead a tangent about choice ensues.
All of a sudden you claim that I said North Koreans are happy and it wouldn't matter if they had the illusion of free choie?
In the USA, something like 90% of the money is in the hands of the top 10% of people. That's a pretty massive "elite", within the country. It seems to be pretty similar in NK, except the country as a whole is dirt fucking poor, so even though the "elite" look bad, the bottom look fucking terrible, and has a government that is really, really corrupt, pretty much controlled by the military, and only really concerned with preserving it's own interests at the expense of the people.
However, it still shows what can be achieved by that type of society. The people can still be happy with their lives, even without the freedoms that others enjoy. Hypothetically, if you could live and die either free and unhappy, or controlled but happy, what would you choose?
Man you just have no fucking idea what are you talking about so just stop please. In North Korea, the wealth is held by about 0,1% of people, probably even less and everybody else is almost a slave which has to do everything they are told or they are put into the worst prison on Earth. Those people are not happy at all, they just have no other choice. If you watched few documents and watched faces of people, or see any people on the streets other than the guides or officers, you could tell they are miserable.
On November 25 2010 09:44 Impervious wrote: [quote] I just finished watching it, and took a few minutes to gather my thoughts, before replying to this.
What I saw was that they seemed generally happy, or at least content, with their lives, even in conditions that people in other countries would never dream of living through willingly. They work hard as a group to accomplish things that an individual could never achieve. They take pride in the things they do. They are also disciplined, while still being able to retain individuality (something that a lot of people seem to fear about communism). Their system seems to be very efficient (however, the excess production they generate goes to things they really, really don't need, instead of going towards increasing production capabilities further to grow at an exponential rate rather than stagnate). For the most part, these seem to be things that other societies could actually learn from, rather than shun them from fear of communism.....
I don't see a problem with their system (not that I prefer it over democracy, however). There are definitely several faults with the country, however. They have a leader that is more concerned with preserving his interests than bettering the individual and becoming more powerful as a group. Their devotion is centered around a hatred of the US (which is reasonable, since they were on the recieving end of US tech during their attempt at reunifying the country, and the leaders capitalized on that to unify the people's resolve in the tough times that followed). Everyone being cutoff from information from the rest of the world also hurts, since they will never know what is going on internationally, nor what has happened since the war, unless the leaders let them know about it (do they even know that the US put men on the moon, as an example of what I mean). While limiting public information is definitely a useful thing in some cases (lets face it, not many people are in the need to know about many things that happen, for security and safety reasons), NK seems to have taken it far too far. Being self-sufficient is definitely a desireable quality that any country should strive for, however, every country (for geographical, social, or other reasons) is better at some things than other, and trade between countries can help both involved, and being in a situation where there is next to no outside contact or trade definitely hurts the country. There is definitely a lot of room for improvement of NK. Then again, the same can be said for every country on earth, don't forget that.
It's not an ignorance is bliss issue. Although it's easy to romanticize someone's life. Remember, they have no autonomy at all.
If the government decides it wants you to do gymnastics, you do gymnastics. There's no such thing as "the first amendment" in authoritative governments. Freedom is unknown.
Btw, starving your citizens is not the same as self-sufficiency.
Are you truly free? Or has societal influences shaped your path so far? Really, really think hard about this.
When you were younger, what did you do? Were you on any sports teams? What were your extracurricular activities? What were your hobbies? How good were your grades? Did you always do your homework? Did you discover any particular strengths and talents you had when you were younger?
Did these somehow shape where you went later on in your life? If some of those things were different, would you be where you are now?
Their type of system seems to take it one step further, that's all. They figure out which path you should be in (they described it as "peasant", "worker", and "intellectual"). From there, they probably figure out some particular strand you should be in, based on your strengths/weaknesses and talents, and this keeps going until they find something useful in society for you to do, regardless of what your strengths/weakness or skills are. It would put people in positions where they can be successful. And when you've been successful at something, you take pride in it. They may not have the same "freedom" that you have, but if they're happy, does it actually matter?
I know you watched that documentary and saw the smiling kid doing her best to try to preform in front of the great leader.
But what about those kids who don't want to be a gymnast? What about the peasants of dreams to go to school and live a good life?
They have no choice.
Sure you can get all ivory tower and question if free will actually exists. But the stark reality of repression is pretty depressing
It wasn't just the smiling kid, it was the other people who were filmed as well. TBH, I payed more attention to what the adults said, and how they acted, more than her.....
It shows what that type of society is capable of.
Of course, starving your population is not a good practice..... I did say that there are some problems with the country (and that's a pretty big one). Then again, there's people living in poverty in "western" countries as well..... Pointing out one fault in a system doesn't help, when other systems that you'd like to think are "better" still have that problem.....
Capitalism = The Poor get screwed over Communism= Everyone but the rich and powerful gets screwed over.
Overall, capitalism benefits far more people. Also, the poor in modern society has a chance for vertical social movement. NK they get a chance to work in the gulags.
There are definitely a lot of things wrong with the country, no doubt. But you can't simply say a system is soley better because "more people don't get screwed over", can you? Because if you go by that logic, Capitalism is fucking terrible compared to Socialism, because nobody gets screwed over. Downside is that the drive for improvements is no longer as dominant, since the monetary issue is pretty much off the table. but, hey, at least nobody gets screwed over, right?
And, yea, people get screwed over in the USA (and in Canada as well), it's just that it's more difficult to see, and it's not as severe. There are still people living on the streets, begging for meals in many cities in Canada.....
Because I have realized that I'm quite happy and content with where I am and what I have.
Can't you be quiet happy and content also in North Korea?
The government, will decide your decisions for you! You can take pride in working in the Gulags! And also the government will take away all that food you 'really don't need'. I can't see why you wouldn't want to go
Socialism is better right?
Did you even watch that TED talk I linked?
Of course, I could drop out of university, book a ticket to China, find my way to the border and somehow get myself into NK and start begging on the streets if I wanted to. But look at the other option - I don't drop out, I get a degree, get a job, and live a decent life.
Do I really have a choice?
It's an illusion of choice. Sure, you can make a choice like "oh, I'll get a pizza instead of a burger", or something similar, but any main, important thing in your life is pretty much an illusion.
Lotta info to get to a big point incoming:
I was born into a household where both of my parents did not have university educations. My mother had taken some college courses, however. Both of my parents, nonetheless, had successful jobs. My mother decided to trade in her job to be a housewife at one point when I was younger. Because of the job she did have, I was exposed to computer systems at an age of 18 months. I've learned how to use computers to a decent level (nothing close to R1CH, he's a fucking god). I was also introduced to videogaming through computers. She also made sure that I was good in school, I was a straight A student (with the exception of any courses in French).
Because my father was a very hands-on person, I learned a lot of stuff from him. He was also a high level chess player, and I used to play him a lot, and after a while, it became less about looking at individual moves, and looking at combinations, then it went to recognizing tempo, then it went to recognizing minute positional advantages, and then it started to become almost instinctual, I was able to simply remember situations and know what the best response was, without thinking about it.
Both of my parents pretty much forced me into extracurricular activities. I was involved in learning the piano at one point, I played soccer, etc. I met some of my best friends through these things.
I was born with a slight problem with my knees. The choices were either surgery (which was not 100% guaranteed to work, and was rather experimental at the time), braces like Forrest Gump had, or taking years of dance/gymnastics/martial arts to strengthen my legs to compensate for the problem. I studied ballet and martial arts for years (martial arts for a much longer period of time, I dropped ballet pretty quickly, probably for social reasons instead of me actually disliking it). My legs have been rediculously strong ever since.
To the main point I'm getting at - Even in high school, when I "wanted" to play on the football team, there were so many factors going into it (several friends on the team, relatively good shape for my size, peer pressure, discipline and leg strength from martial arts, leg strength from ballet, strategy love from the years of chess, my years of studying hard allowing me to have a relatively easy time in high school which gave me free time for it, years of playing videogames allowing me to know how to get into "the zone" and focus completely at the task at hand, etc). Ultimately, I can't look back at it and simply think that it was merely my "choice", more like a logical culmination of many different events in my past led to that outcome. And I enjoyed it immensely, even though it really was an illusion of choice for me.
My parents always worked hard at making sure I would be able to do better for myself than they were able to do for themselves. Going to a post-secondary education was definitely the result of that hard work. My parents (and many people I knew) figured I would go into engineering by the time I was 4 years old. Initially, they thought I'd be better in mechanical or robotics engineering because I used to always be good at building and programming robots and stuff, but I'm in Civil. There are even reasons for this (I worked for a construction company doing roadwork for a summer and was amazed at how quickly that stuff could be done, I worked for a landscaper for a summer and was fascinated by what he was able to do, I have family in the industry, I've always been around people who are good at doing renovations, in grade 2 I built a bridge as a school project that could hold my weight, etc).
Even in University, my choice for being a frosh guide this year wasn't simply just me deciding to sign up without any influence on the reason - I've got several friends who are involved in our student society and plans the week (including a good friend of mine being the person who pretty much organized the week), I have these big-brother type instincts (thanks to having 3 much younger siblings, which I had to help raise when my dad passed away), memories of how awesome my frosh week was and obviously wanting to repeat it, etc.....
I've realized for a long time that I am the sum of all my previous experiences - they shape who I am and who I will become. I'm totally fine with that. To me, the "free choice" people seem to love is just an illusion.
Yeah, you totally have it as bad as the North Koreans, no choice whatsoever in your extra-curricular activities or fraternity.
Dude, come on.
Seconded. In North Korea if you criticize the government you may end up in a labor camp for the rest of your life (which probably wouldn't be for very long). Millions of people have starved to death their because of their government's corruption and incompetence. You might have had a hard life but imagine what it would be like having your family starve to death or taken away to labor camps never to be seen again. I'm no lover of the US or capitalism but even someone at the lower rung of society in a democratic, capitalist society has far more freedom and opportunities than almost anyone in North Korea. I think there is a tendency for some liberals to romanticize North Korea because they see it as a last bastion of communism but in fact North Korea is not even a communist country. Where in communist doctrine does it say that the leader of the country should an inherited position? Or that the leader should be regarded as a kind of demi-god? North Korea is actually more a monarchy/cult than a communist country.
However, it still shows what can be achieved by that type of society. The people can still be happy with their lives, even without the freedoms that others enjoy. Hypothetically, if you could live and die either free and unhappy, or controlled but happy, what would you choose?
Do you think the millions who starved to death were happy with their lives?
In the 1990s North Korea faced significant economic disruptions, including a series of natural disasters, economic mismanagement and serious resource shortages after the collapse of the Eastern Bloc. These resulted in a shortfall of staple grain output of more than 1 million tons from what the country needs to meet internationally accepted minimum dietary requirements.[136] The North Korean famine known as "Arduous March" resulted in the deaths of between 300,000 and 800,000 North Koreans per year during the three year famine, peaking in 1997.[17] The deaths were most likely caused by famine-related illnesses such as pneumonia, tuberculosis, and diarrhea rather than starvation.[17] In 2006, Amnesty International reported that a national nutrition survey conducted by the North Korean government, the World Food Programme, and UNICEF found that 7% of children were severely malnourished; 37% were chronically malnourished; 23.4% were underweight; and one in three mothers was malnourished and anaemic as the result of the lingering effect of the famine. The inflation caused by some of the 2002 economic reforms, including the Songun or "Military-first" policy, was cited for creating the increased price of basic foods.[137]
Or those in concentration camps?
Multiple international human rights organizations, including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, accuse North Korea of having one of the worst human rights records of any nation.[175] North Koreans have been referred to as "some of the world's most brutalized people" by Human Rights Watch, due to the severe restrictions placed on their political and economic freedoms.[176] North Korean defectors have testified to the existence of prisons and concentration camps[177] with an estimated 150,000 to 200,000 inmates (about 0.85% of the population), and have reported torture, starvation, rape, murder, medical experimentation, forced labour, and forced abortions.[178] Convicted political prisoners and their families are sent to these camps, where they are prohibited from marrying, required to grow their own food, and cut off from external communication (which was previously allowed).[179]
You watch one documentary which was no doubt heavily vetted by the NK government and you come to the concluson that in general North Koreans are 'controlled but happy'. Try to imagine what life would be like for those not of the privileged classes or those who have any sort of independent thought.
God CaucasianAsian where do you get all those ideas?
This whole deal about communism and NK is surrounded about a large aura of mysticism which grows bigger and bigger in western countries. For example, if someone is indeed tied to a tree and killed with stones in NK, because some damn sadistic guardians wanted to do that and it gets leaked out of NK (i'll even tell you later how it gets leaked) the whole western countries media will exaggerate this to a point where it has nothing to do with reality. And why is it so simple? Because NK can't defend themselves in any way, their media and political/diplomatical power are so small that everyone would ignore their sources.
And you know how that would get leaked out of the so scary prison named NK? Some people in NK will find out, police will find out, an investigation will start, there will be stuff in NK's newspapers about it and that's how it will get out of the country and we will find out and distort it.
The situation in NK is very bad as it is in reality and every smart person should know and understand that there's a limit for it, not to buy the so much aggravated version you're being fed by the media, which has it's own purpose.
Edit: And to start with such truisms that poor nk people aren't allowed to have any decisions, they are being told by the government what sport to do and what path to follow and government/state implication in everyday life telling them who to sleep with is just stupid.
NK adopted a system that existed in many other places, which was very bad but not as inhuman as it's sometimes being portrayed. Read about other countries who went tens of years under this false communist/socialist doctrine.
On November 25 2010 21:16 Pika Chu wrote: God CaucasianAsian where do you get all those ideas?
This whole deal about communism and NK is surrounded about a large aura of mysticism which grows bigger and bigger in western countries. For example, if someone is indeed tied to a tree and killed with stones in NK, because some damn sadistic guardians wanted to do that and it gets leaked out of NK (i'll even tell you later how it gets leaked) the whole western countries media will exaggerate this to a point where it has nothing to do with reality. And why is it so simple? Because NK can't defend themselves in any way, their media and political/diplomatical power are so small that everyone would ignore their sources.
And you know how that would get leaked out of the so scary prison named NK? Some people in NK will find out, police will find out, an investigation will start, there will be stuff in NK's newspapers about it and that's how it will get out of the country and we will find out and distort it.
The situation in NK is very bad as it is in reality and every smart person should know and understand that there's a limit for it, not to buy the so much aggravated version you're being fed by the media, which has it's own purpose.
Edit: And to start with such truisms that poor nk people aren't allowed to have any decisions, they are being told by the government what sport to do and what path to follow and government/state implication in everyday life telling them who to sleep with is just stupid.
NK adopted a system that existed in many other places, which was very bad but not as inhuman as it's sometimes being portrayed. Read about other countries who went tens of years under this false communist/socialist doctrine.
Pika chu - have you ever watched any N.K. witness interviewed (refugees)? Maybe that's how some stuff get leaked. Those people have their faces blurred due to they are scared to death to say anything eventhough they are in China. North korean government has special agents there and they would be brought back and executed together with their whole families if they get caught. I am with you that a lot of stuff is aggravated nowadays, but i don't think it is the case of North Korea. I actually think things might be even worse, so we know nothing.
Well, they got 12 years of hard labor. What do you think they mean by hard labor? Do you think that hard labor would mean that they are filling pot holes in Pyongyang, the city where no one owns a car?
Once again, I urge you to understand the severity of what is going on in North Korea.
My favorite documentary has footage by a man who who sneaks a camera into North Korea risking his life filming what is really going on.
On November 25 2010 21:16 Pika Chu wrote: God CaucasianAsian where do you get all those ideas?
This whole deal about communism and NK is surrounded about a large aura of mysticism which grows bigger and bigger in western countries. For example, if someone is indeed tied to a tree and killed with stones in NK, because some damn sadistic guardians wanted to do that and it gets leaked out of NK (i'll even tell you later how it gets leaked) the whole western countries media will exaggerate this to a point where it has nothing to do with reality. And why is it so simple? Because NK can't defend themselves in any way, their media and political/diplomatical power are so small that everyone would ignore their sources.
And you know how that would get leaked out of the so scary prison named NK? Some people in NK will find out, police will find out, an investigation will start, there will be stuff in NK's newspapers about it and that's how it will get out of the country and we will find out and distort it.
The situation in NK is very bad as it is in reality and every smart person should know and understand that there's a limit for it, not to buy the so much aggravated version you're being fed by the media, which has it's own purpose.
Edit: And to start with such truisms that poor nk people aren't allowed to have any decisions, they are being told by the government what sport to do and what path to follow and government/state implication in everyday life telling them who to sleep with is just stupid.
NK adopted a system that existed in many other places, which was very bad but not as inhuman as it's sometimes being portrayed. Read about other countries who went tens of years under this false communist/socialist doctrine.
Pika chu - have you ever watched any N.K. witness interviewed (refugees)? Maybe that's how some stuff get leaked. Those people have their faces blurred due to they are scared to death to say anything eventhough they are in China. North korean government has special agents there and they would be brought back and executed together with their whole families if they get caught. I am with you that a lot of stuff is aggravated nowadays, but i don't think it is the case of North Korea. I actually think things might be even worse, so we know nothing.
Romania was almost 40 years under dictatorship in an totalitarian state with the same "excuse" of communism/socialism. People running out of the country always spread a much worse image than what was really going inside. They were talking about mass murders happened on the streets, famine and some other which simply exaggerated how bad it was.
I know people have a tendency of exaggerating things and especially when not confronted with any other version and it gets spread from source to source to source the news becomes more terrible, more dramatic, more sensationalist.
im convinced that NK has huge issues and is one of the worst places on earth live at, but at the same time it is pretty obvious that the public image of "NK = hell on earth" which is distributed in the western media is very exaggerated.
oh, and to that troll who asked "we dont like their system and they dont like ours - how do u want to decide on the superior one?":
i´d say choosing the country where the smaller percentage of the population dies of starvation is a good starting point......
I kinda agree with Pika Chu. Bulgaria has the same communist, totalitarian regime as North Korea for 45 years and things were not at all so bad as one may think.
Regarding the documentary in the OP, I must say that this guy has two documentaries about Bulgaria which are pure super-hyper-mega exaggerated bullshit.
i´d say choosing the country where the smaller percentage of the population dies of starvation is a good starting point......
that would be NK then when you look at africa
well, i indeed believe that the majority of inhabitants of north korea are better off than the majority of ppl in the worst african countries. like... somalia, liberia, maybe zimbabwe.
On November 25 2010 04:30 bonifaceviii wrote: Reunification will happen eventually, but probably not soon.
The culture between the countries are ridiculously different, despite being right next to each other. South Korea has very little to gain from reunification. It's not that it "probably" wont happen soon. It won't happen anytime soon.
It's the "same" situation that happened in Germany with the end of the WW2..
There was a communist east germany and a capitalist west germany!
40 years later who was better? who had better lifes? who had a better education, health system and who had a better future?
We all know capitalism is not a perfect solution especially uncontrolled and unregulated capitalism but come on comunism has proven itself to be impossible and a utopia!
If you compare NK to SK you it's like comparing two equal countrys but one stoped in time for 50years..
Did west germany won anything from east germany? not really.. did they enjoy the reunification? of course.. familys were united, people could return to their lands, towns and still enjoy peace and prosperity!
I hope it does happen but it won't happen until a NK leader cares for his country and people or the people rise up and take charge for their future!
hope the "Crazy Leader" Jr. understands this and makes a change!
I can't remember the name of the documentary, but I saw one about a North korean handicapped boy grown up in Denmark returning to N.K with his small theater group to perform and act with North Koreans.
U got to know the N.K culture through their many taboos, scenes where the boy asked where all the North Korean Handicapped persons were hiding, their reaction just made the situation crystal clear.
Anyway, I just watched the first 5 minutes of the american documentary and I couldn't really stand it, even if n.k is a horrible dictatorship such a prejudice view isn't the road u ought to take with a documentary. which in my eyes shows more about their culture from the inside, the very human reactions from westerners to the military parades and their faces during forced salutes to Kim Il Sung and most of all the Koreans reactions to a handicapped theater when it's existence is never seen in public.
So if anyone has seen the documentary I mentioned please link it to the rest of TL!
i live in Czech republic so i know what you mean, but it is little bit out of bound to compare "our" totalitarian communism regime to North Korea...We had plenty of food compared to them and the country itself was prospering, many people were actually happy the way it was, the only major problem was that you could not have any bigger private property or business running and your choices were markedly limited compared to nowadays. Well there were more issues of course, but you can't compare that to N.K.
@Ricjames - It's really great to have an eyewitness perspective from another regime which people might want to compare to NK. I think that's really interesting.
I'm pretty sure that the people who manage to escape from NK don't try to "exaggerate" the situation in their country, by and large. Based on personal experience, Koreans tend to be pretty proud people - the kind who would rather say everything's fine than show any sign of unhappiness or dysfunction at home. I also think there's a point at which enough people have enough life stories that corroborate with each other where you can safely draw some kind of picture of what's going on (with supporting evidence, of course). I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that NK is one of the largest human rights crises in the world today because of the living conditions of most of the populace.
On November 26 2010 03:23 Ricjames wrote: i live in Czech republic so i know what you mean, but it is little bit out of bound to compare "our" totalitarian communism regime to North Korea...We had plenty of food compared to them and the country itself was prospering, many people were actually happy the way it was, the only major problem was that you could not have any bigger private property or business running and your choices were markedly limited compared to nowadays. Well there were more issues of course, but you can't compare that to N.K.
I definitely agree with this.
The differences between the World War II & Cold War era communism regimes to the one prevalent in North Korea is mind boggling. If I were to compare the two, I would say North Korea is Nazi Germany on steroids.
For instance, just a few examples... During the separation of East and West Germany, if you were stuck in East Germany, you would be pressured under communism and German Warfare tactics. You would be forced and subject to read and listen to propaganda in the news.
The way this is different from what is happening in North Korea today, is that those in East Germany were old enough where they could remember what life was like before they were put in such conditions. As well as, they could tune into British, American, and even West German radio stations, to know what the real world is like.
North Korean citizens are not allowed to know of any outside politics, or news. If you are caught changing the antenna on your TV or radio to catch a Russian, Chinese, or South Korean station you and your family would be subject to prison camps and death.
The other main reason why these two are vastly different, is that we know what is going on. When the world found out that Nazi Germany had concentration camps, the world was shocked. The country leaders knew little of what they were, but the rest of the world, the general population had no idea. So when people found out just how evil some people could be, they were astonished. Then people began to question as to why we didn't do anything earlier. How did we let it get so bad?
The United States and the European Union had agreed to never allow such a thing to take place. However, we know of the concentration camps in North Korea. We know of the human rights that are denied by people every day. However no one is doing anything.
South Korea even tries to hush it down, as they are looking for a future of re-uniting the two Koreas, and addressing such things they believe may bring bad politics. They instead focus more on a tiny island that South Korea and Japan are arguing over for fishing rights.
There are many things today that are going wrong in the world. Darfur, the children's army in Uganda, the human trafficking in eastern europe, tsunamis, earthquakes, and hurricanes, all of these are going on today in addition to North Korea.
However, North Korea is the single human rights deprived nation that is getting close to no attention. This is why it's such a big deal.
I was born in Soviet Union, and spent the half of my life in communism, and the other half in capitalism. All I can say is 90% of posters here mentioning communism are trolls with majority from western countries. Excuse me, but it's true. You are really brainwashed if you make judgements by school education, "documentaries", youtube videos, fox news etc. Please, pretty please, never ever judge things you haven't seen with your own eyes or felt with you own skin... I can't say anything about NK because I've never been there, nor my friends or relatives whom I can trust.
p.s. sorry for bad english I was taught in totalitarian soviet school
AlJazeera has just uploaded a documentary called "101 East - Learning Liberty" to youtube. It's about defectors from the North who are now living in the South (I'm only 5 minutes in).
I thought that it doesn't need its own thread but might still be interesting for people to see.
I know this thread is pretty old, but I didn't want to make a new thread for this video I found though. The video is from 2008's Gumball 3000. Basically Gumball 3000 went into North Korea for the 2008 year. Here is the video. That's the first part and then the second part is to the right as you can see.
If you don't know what gumball 3000 is, it's basically a race between mostly people with exotic cars, from one location to another. A lot of famous people are in this race as well.
EPT
thanks for sharing
