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don_kyuhote
3006 Posts
On December 03 2010 11:15 Blanke wrote: I say we give it till the 10th of December, which is when the drills end in SK. If nothing happens by then, it's probably a safe assumption that NK is backing down. There is no deadline to aggression when it comes to NK. | ||
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Shigy
United States346 Posts
http://www.korea-dpr.com/ocn it's full of juicy propaganda, almost never refers to the US without the prefix "imperialist-". almost none of the 'news' articles refer to interkorean violence, the latest published just two days ago is an account of the WPK 65th anniversary celebration where the world confirmed the kim jong un would be kim jong il's successor. | ||
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iMAniaC
Norway703 Posts
On December 09 2010 17:51 evanthebouncy! wrote: woah take it easy there. It's only north korea, alone it can't do much and nobody is willing to back that country up. However, if the US has to engage in yet another war, it might cripple them economically or militarily if they have to spread their forces out or removing them from other key areas, leaving a power vacuum somewhere else in the world. Then, this power vacuum is taken by some other nation, upsetting the balance of power and ultimately leading to the WW3. One of the triggers of the first world war was the assassination of the archduke of Austria and his wife. Who would think that killing two persons would amount to throwing an entire continent into war? Similarly, it's not outside the realm of extreme possibility that the overthrowing of the North Korean regime could lead to other military confrontations. Besides, perhaps the one country which would be most pissed about North Korea getting smashed, could be Iran, which gets its rockets from there. Iran, of course, is another NK-like nation, trying to get nuclear weapons and threatening to blow their almost-neighbour Israel from the map in a holy war, just like NK does with SK. In addition, Iran is bordered by both Afghanistan and Iraq, which of course have a decent amount of American soldiers, being an easy target to avenge the loss of their friend North Korea, a loss which they blame the imperialist US for. So the US has to invade Iran too, but at that point, some of the other powers think it's gone too far and decide to support Iran, for whatever reason. It could be Russia, not liking that their neighbour is invaded by the Americans, it could be some pan-Islamic effort by large parts of the Middle East, or someone else entirely. It might be that the Middle East states declare war, not so much on the US, but on Israel, for supporting the war on Iran. Another way this could go, is that the WMD's of North Korea fall into the wrong hands during the confusion that would arise with an invasion of NK. Wrong hands, of course, being some terrorist organization which would be stupid enough to use them. Then, the US has to invade the country in which they are based, just like they did with Afghanistan, and you have pretty much the same situation as above. Alternately, the WMD's could go to terrorists/cessesionists in China or Russia (targeting the Chinese or Russians, respectively, that is), so that China or Russia would have to deal with them in some way. From the point of view of the West, these terrorists might be freedom fighters, significantly cooling the relationship between US and China or Russia, perhaps bringing China and Russia closer together, as they both have internal problems of that kind (Uighurs and Chechenyans, for example) and would have each other's sympathy. So, that's some ways it could go. I just wanted to point out that it's not a given that nothing comes from invading North Korea. It could go drastically wrong. Personally, however, I'm in the camp that thinks North Korea will be brought down in a nice and orderly fashion, everyone else caring too much about the economy and regional stability and not doing anything stupid to jeapardize it. Perhaps even most of the North Korean soldiers realize that it would be a horrible waste to level Seoul to the ground and consequently just a couple of rockets go off, doing minimal damage. The whole army turning against the Kim regime once they realize that it's going down or once Jong-Un takes over, almost without any bloodshed, that would be awesome. | ||
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zak
Korea (South)1009 Posts
On December 09 2010 19:34 iMAniaC wrote: I just wrote a wall-of-text for the other Korea topic, but it got closed before I finished... Not letting that wall-of-text be in vain, so posting it here instead. Then, this power vacuum is taken by some other nation, upsetting the balance of power and ultimately leading to the WW3. This statement is extremely misguided. Simply because the U.S. forces are committed to another region would never incite WW3. Balance of power? This isn't Napoleonic Europe. Who would think that killing two persons would amount to throwing an entire continent into war? Sir, you should know that WW1 was much more complex than the assassination of the Archduke. He was assassinated by the the Black Hand, a Serbian terrorist group, because Austria-Hungary had an inkling for Serbian land and the Balkans. And due to the the tangle web of alliances and German backing of the invasion of Serbia, this led Russia backed Serbia to declare war on Austria-Hungary. In turn, the Germans and Russians were forced by their respective treaties to engage in WW1. The assassination was simply an excuse to go to war. In addition, Iran is bordered by both Afghanistan and Iraq, which of course have a decent amount of American soldiers, being an easy target to avenge the loss of their friend North Korea, a loss which they blame the imperialist US for. The international relationship between Iran and North Korea is not as rosy as you picture it. Yes, the Iranians purchase arms from North Korea but by no means would Iran intervene on behalf of a North Korean invasion. It would be suicide. Iran's international policy greatly differs from North Korea and though both despise the U.S., the Iranian government would never condone a state sponsored attack on a neutral country. Also, study the public and government relationship of Iran. The public and growing youth of Iran disagree on many policies of Ahmadinaejad (fuck his name); much of the public being pro-Western would cry foul of any backing of North Korea. So the US has to invade Iran too, but at that point, some of the other powers think it's gone too far and decide to support Iran, for whatever reason. It could be Russia, not liking that their neighbour is invaded by the Americans, it could be some pan-Islamic effort by large parts of the Middle East, or someone else entirely. It might be that the Middle East states declare war, not so much on the US, but on Israel, for supporting the war on Iran. It could be Greenland. Another way this could go, is that the WMD's of North Korea fall into the wrong hands during the confusion that would arise with an invasion of NK. Okay, maybe this might occur if U.S. satellites happened to be turned off that day. No, North Korea is closed off already as it is and intensively watched by military personnel from all over the world. Plus, you do not seem to understand the military might of the U.S. and it's allies. Once America decides to go to war with North Korea...nothing will get out without their knowledge. Then, the US has to invade the country in which they are based, just like they did with Afghanistan, and you have pretty much the same situation as above. Alternately, the WMD's could go to terrorists/cessesionists in China or Russia (targeting the Chinese or Russians, respectively, that is), so that China or Russia would have to deal with them in some way. From the point of view of the West, these terrorists might be freedom fighters, significantly cooling the relationship between US and China or Russia, perhaps bringing China and Russia closer together, as they both have internal problems of that kind (Uighurs and Chechenyans, for example) and would have each other's sympathy. Seriously? Freedom fighters in China? WMD's going to secessionists in Russia and China? Where are you getting this stuff? Perhaps even most of the North Korean soldiers realize that it would be a horrible waste to level Seoul to the ground Wow, do you not realize that the North Korean plan has ALWAYS, ALWAYS, been to storm Seoul in less than 2 hours with troopers and/or level the city with the thousands of artillery pieces and rockets it has lined up in the DMZ? You think they are doing all that for show? The whole army turning against the Kim regime once they realize that it's going down or once Jong-Un takes over, almost without any bloodshed I wish but this is wishful thinking. Kim is a god in Korea and the army is loyal to him. 90% of the nation's funds go towards the military and her soldiers. If anyone is going to revolt it is the peasantry (yes they are fucking peasants). Even if the military stages a coup, I doubt it will be any more progressive than now. For over 50 years the entire populace and military has been brainwashed to see the West as the evil imperialists. Any leader that arises from North Korea will not fall far from the tree that is Kim Jong Il. @IMANIAC Everything I bolded is from your wall of text. My responses are italicized. Sorry but your post will misguide readers. | ||
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iMAniaC
Norway703 Posts
I think what you point out about WW1 is the most important thing, that it was not the actual killings that were the sole reason for the war, but rather an excuse, as you put it. If there were to break out a world war over North Korea, it would have to be a result of something that had been going on for some time already, and not just an opportunistic attack by someone. However, as Wikileaks have shown us, there are some silent agreements that we don't know of. Like China accepting a unified Korea under SK being one example. A few month's back, you'd find lots of opinions stating that China would never allow that. Or Turkey's shift from NATO towards the Middle East and their alienation of Israel. Is there something going on there that doesn't see the light of day? Also, following the situation in Georgia, Russia implemented their policy of possible military engagement whenever Russians are in danger. Will they stick to that rhetoric in the future? I certainly didn't foresee Russia invading a country that was on its way to becoming a NATO member... Anyway, the point I'm trying to make, is that it seems to me that lots of improbable things happen, and I was outlining a chain of improbable events, which merely constitute the "triggers" or "excuses" for some underlying motives which we don't know about. Also, the WMD's could be something else than nukes, like an experimental biological weapon or something like that. Something that wouldn't be revealed by satellites. Even Al-Qaeda are supposedly trying to get them (link), so why not NK? I'll admit that those weapons going into the hands of terrorists, though, needs a Hollywood movie-like chain of events to happen, but stranger things have happened, right? Also, I was thinking about the soldiers of WW1, lying in the trenches in France and not shooting at each other. Taking the day off on Christmas and celebrating together with their sworn enemies. How the heck is that possible? Surely, it was not the plan from French and German HQ to fraternize with the enemy. My point is, when those soldiers, two ethnic groups that had been at war every now and then since the fall of the Roman Empire, chose not to follow orders, would it be too much to hope that North Korean soldiers might choose not to follow orders to kill their own brethren, not only soldiers, but women and children, which they have been taught they should reunite with one day? I know that the plan is to level Seoul and zerg all of SK, and that NK even has the capability, but it requires the co-operaiton of all the 1 million soldiers, and I was hoping they wouldn't support that plan. (And lol@Greenland. It's the secret terror organization Inuit-Qaeda  ) | ||
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sc4k
United Kingdom5454 Posts
On December 03 2010 11:26 Shigy wrote: has anyone checked out North Korea's official website? i stumbled upon this when i started writing a paper about korean reunification. http://www.korea-dpr.com/ocn it's full of juicy propaganda, almost never refers to the US without the prefix "imperialist-". almost none of the 'news' articles refer to interkorean violence, the latest published just two days ago is an account of the WPK 65th anniversary celebration where the world confirmed the kim jong un would be kim jong il's successor. haha, this is epic: "With this as the beginning over half a century of uninterrupted political and military confrontation between the DPRK and the US has witnessed defeat on the latter’s side. Whenever an incident arose, like the incidents of the US armed spy ship Pueblo and the large espionage plane E-121 in the 1960s, the Panmunjom incident in the 1970s, and joint military exercises code-named Team Spirit held every year thereafter, the US dispatched aircraft carriers and even nuclear-armed troops, trumpeting that it would bring the DPRK to its knees and conquer it. But, in the long run, the US always ended up either making apologies or giving up of itself. When it kicked a nuclear fuss on the Korean Peninsula in the 1990s and the early 2000s, it founded in a quagmire, overwhelmed by the military might and matchless courage of the DPRK. Recently the US preposterously linked the sinking of the south Korean naval ship, Cheonan, with the DPRK, in a vain attempt to create a hair-trigger situation on the Korean Peninsula. But it only exposed itself to disgrace and shame; the world denounced that it concocted the farce." | ||
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McBain
Canada25 Posts
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muse5187
1125 Posts
On December 01 2010 10:59 PepperoniPiZZa wrote: + Show Spoiler + Here's a link for the full documentary incase the one on youtube is blocked in your country. http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/15-tMa5i4To/ very very disturbing video. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On December 10 2010 06:40 McBain wrote: The way Kim Jong Il is embellished on that website re-defines cult of personality. 'Invincible Party' and 'Great leader' are hardly proper terms when the citizens of NL are in perpetual poverty... It is so easy to only blame others, is it? I wonder why has Nk been so afraid for 50 years? Maybe because their opponent is a country that has no problems starting wars all over the world or using covert operations to change governments. | ||
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red_hq
Canada450 Posts
I agree, I just can't imagine the hardship there. It's amazing really how someone can have such complete control. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On December 10 2010 07:59 red_hq wrote: I agree, I just can't imagine the hardship there. It's amazing really how someone can have such complete control. finally watched it. the end with all the praising killed me. this is so freakin sick i dont even have words for it. | ||
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zak
Korea (South)1009 Posts
On December 09 2010 22:07 iMAniaC wrote: Thanks for your response. And you're right, most of what I wrote is very unlikely, I won't dispute that. However, I will dispute that's it's entirely impossible. It's not impossible, it's just very improbable. I think what you point out about WW1 is the most important thing, that it was not the actual killings that were the sole reason for the war, but rather an excuse, as you put it. If there were to break out a world war over North Korea, it would have to be a result of something that had been going on for some time already, and not just an opportunistic attack by someone. However, as Wikileaks have shown us, there are some silent agreements that we don't know of. Like China accepting a unified Korea under SK being one example. A few month's back, you'd find lots of opinions stating that China would never allow that. Or Turkey's shift from NATO towards the Middle East and their alienation of Israel. Is there something going on there that doesn't see the light of day? Also, following the situation in Georgia, Russia implemented their policy of possible military engagement whenever Russians are in danger. Will they stick to that rhetoric in the future? I certainly didn't foresee Russia invading a country that was on its way to becoming a NATO member... Anyway, the point I'm trying to make, is that it seems to me that lots of improbable things happen, and I was outlining a chain of improbable events, which merely constitute the "triggers" or "excuses" for some underlying motives which we don't know about. Also, the WMD's could be something else than nukes, like an experimental biological weapon or something like that. Something that wouldn't be revealed by satellites. Even Al-Qaeda are supposedly trying to get them (link), so why not NK? I'll admit that those weapons going into the hands of terrorists, though, needs a Hollywood movie-like chain of events to happen, but stranger things have happened, right? Also, I was thinking about the soldiers of WW1, lying in the trenches in France and not shooting at each other. Taking the day off on Christmas and celebrating together with their sworn enemies. How the heck is that possible? Surely, it was not the plan from French and German HQ to fraternize with the enemy. My point is, when those soldiers, two ethnic groups that had been at war every now and then since the fall of the Roman Empire, chose not to follow orders, would it be too much to hope that North Korean soldiers might choose not to follow orders to kill their own brethren, not only soldiers, but women and children, which they have been taught they should reunite with one day? I know that the plan is to level Seoul and zerg all of SK, and that NK even has the capability, but it requires the co-operaiton of all the 1 million soldiers, and I was hoping they wouldn't support that plan. (And lol@Greenland. It's the secret terror organization Inuit-Qaeda )Good point about the Wikileaks on China/North Korea relations. Yes, I was actually quite shocked when I heard that a few weeks back, I always assumed that China would never want to see a unified Korea. My apologies. And yes though the union of the two Korean soldiers and unwillingness of the North to wipe out Seoul from the planet is improbable, it is not impossible. Very good example of using Xmas time in the trenches of WWI; they slaughtered each other but would still fraternize by singing songs and even sharing food. But I hope that the cooperation of the two Korean nations occur before the terrible toll of the NK Zerg rush. There would be little space in my heart once Seoul is leveled, not even for a North Korean girl who sang songs for me or brought me drinks. | ||
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don_kyuhote
3006 Posts
On December 10 2010 07:09 -Archangel- wrote: It is so easy to only blame others, is it? I wonder why has Nk been so afraid for 50 years? Maybe because their opponent is a country that has no problems starting wars all over the world or using covert operations to change governments. Yes it's easy to blame NK. NK has been so afriad for 50 years because they have lied to and deceived and oppressed their own people so much, and NK regime doesn't want the world to come in and tell the NK citizens that NK regime have been lying for past 50 years. We're not talking about some watergate scandal or Monica lewinsky scandal here. This is a regime built and sustained by and through deceptions and lies. NK is so afriad of the truth being revealed that they can't even move the country forward. | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
http://www.nu.nl/buitenland/2400553/noord-korea-dreigt-met-atoomoorlog.html This is a dutch source, but is fairly reliable, I will attempt to translate it North-Korea threatens with nuclear warfare. AMSTERDAM - North-Korea has threatened with nuclear warfare on monday. The country itself is angry over the planned colleberate naval exercises which are to be done this week. The exercises are 3 weeks after the deadly artillery fire from Northkorea on the South-Korean island Yeonpyeong. The naval exercises of South-Korea and the US will be done with live ammunition, they will take place from monday till friday at 27 different locations. These exercises, which are done on a regular basis, can rely on special attention from North-Korea after the attack on Yeonpyeong. Treachery North-Korea lashed out to Seoul and accused South-Korea of colleberation with the United States and Japan, its purpose being to heighten the pressure on Pyongyang. The colleberation, according to North-Korea is nothing else but betrayal,they said that the the tensions between the North and South are rising and the dark clouds of a nuclear war are looming above the Korean Peninsula(typo) Apologies if done wrong,it is a rather rough translation, if anyone can find an English source to confirm this story better that be awesome. If anything, seems like tensions are rising higher then ever. | ||
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meeple
Canada10211 Posts
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gUyVEkrADdXr85LKmDFqRoLN_sWQ?docId=N0111421292222950932A Basically saying the same thing... they're threatening to use "nuclear deterrents"... good God man... they're insane... starting a nuclear war over some troop exercises... this is getting really real and really scary. Edit: Man... copied the wrong one | ||
infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
I'm not good enough at Chinese to do a quick translation  | ||
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
On December 13 2010 19:06 meeple wrote: There's a UK post about that too... I was just going to post this... http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gUyVEkrADdXr85LKmDFqRoLN_sWQ?docId=N0111421292222950932A Basically saying the same thing... they're threatening to use "nuclear deterrents"... good God man... they're insane... starting a nuclear war over some troop exercises... this is getting really real and really scary. Edit: Man... copied the wrong one North Korea will never be the party to start a war. What these totally unnecessary and frivolous naval exercises accomplish is the creation of a scenario which North Korea will misinterpret and misconstrue, permitting plenty of opportunities for accidental conflagrations. North Korea's actions are not insane. They follow a very simple oriental common sense, so simple that it's easy to miss. They will also take us further from a normalization of relations with the North Korean regime, which is the only policy likely to deflate military tensions in the long run, in my opinion. We must not pretend to be friends with the North Koreans, but we must stop giving North Korea the impression that we pose an existential threat to their country or regime. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
Goodbye Korea, it's been fun while it lasted . | ||
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don_kyuhote
3006 Posts
On December 13 2010 19:51 MoltkeWarding wrote: North Korea will never be the party to start a war. What these totally unnecessary and frivolous naval exercises accomplish is the creation of a scenario which North Korea will misinterpret and misconstrue, permitting plenty of opportunities for accidental conflagrations. North Korea's actions are not insane. They follow a very simple oriental common sense, so simple that it's easy to miss. They will also take us further from a normalization of relations with the North Korean regime, which is the only policy likely to deflate military tensions in the long run, in my opinion. We must not pretend to be friends with the North Koreans, but we must stop giving North Korea the impression that we pose an existential threat to their country or regime. The mere existence of SK and USA is taken as an existential threat to NK regime. NK is like a spoiled child that is getting crankier by the day. To a spoiled child, some butt kicking is the true medicine, not chocolate. | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
On December 13 2010 20:09 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Okay, that's the last straw. I'm fucking outta here. Goodbye Korea, it's been fun while it lasted .You are joking, right? | ||
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