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On December 17 2010 10:24 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 07:26 JazusZerg wrote:
who the fuck cares about his personality? It sickens me with so much real information to discuss that anyone would spend even a second pondering the trivialities of this dude's love life. Just goes to show how successfully corporate media has numbed public interest in actual news, in favor of TMZ style bullshit.
EDIT, so now that it's apparent that American civil society is fucked, does anyone know a country I can move to with the following traits:
1. Mild winters (I live in SoCal right now, so use that as a model)
2. Pretty girls (see above)
3. Not turning into a fucking fascist state as we speak
How is it not news relevant?? This is the exactly the same ethically as what he is doing: Pulling shit out and showing it for the sake of showing it. Most of the leaks had no news value other than showing people you have access to classified state secrets.
Yes you're right, how silly of me. Obv its exactly the same to reveal war and diplomatic records of the most powerful actor in global politics, as it is to gossip about the love life of some Australian dude. Because the two subjects are of equal importance. Yup, ethical equivalents, I'm surprised I didn't see it sooner...
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On December 17 2010 13:52 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 10:24 Hawk wrote:On December 17 2010 07:26 JazusZerg wrote:
who the fuck cares about his personality? It sickens me with so much real information to discuss that anyone would spend even a second pondering the trivialities of this dude's love life. Just goes to show how successfully corporate media has numbed public interest in actual news, in favor of TMZ style bullshit.
EDIT, so now that it's apparent that American civil society is fucked, does anyone know a country I can move to with the following traits:
1. Mild winters (I live in SoCal right now, so use that as a model)
2. Pretty girls (see above)
3. Not turning into a fucking fascist state as we speak
How is it not news relevant?? This is the exactly the same ethically as what he is doing: Pulling shit out and showing it for the sake of showing it. Most of the leaks had no news value other than showing people you have access to classified state secrets. You're kidding right? The exact same thing has been done in the past and it was even celebrated in the US.If you don't see the value in what's been revealed through the cables and war logs, it's because you're watching Fox News or some other garbage equivalent. The wikileaks cables are actually having a major impact around the world, but seeing as you qualify as an "average American" it's not surprising you're oblivious. + Show Spoiler +The Croatian PM literally fled his own country because of corruption allegations revealed in the leaks.
Do you know what the Pentagon Papers are??? Please find me something comparable to mountains of evidence that several Presidents blatantly lied to the public to induce war. That's why it was celebrated. Not because someone leaked a bunch of stuff.
But yeah, wikileaks does such awesome things such as leak profiles of public leaders that are used in negotiations, leaked govt memos detailing how to avoid letting documents get leaked on more than one occasion, just to show how cool and powerful Julian was. Woooooooo.
The number of worthless documents that have been leaked for the sake of being leaked far outweighs leaked stuff that has exposed real corruption. The means don't justify the end result; it's theft of classified material that damages country images, international relations and all sorts of shit. For what? So Julian can get people all riled up about the war again or whatever other issues he's got a beef with?
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What? Wikileaks doesn't steal information, and neither does Assange have anything to do with what material comes in. Specific things he has a beef with don't matter. Documents come to them when people submit material they think shouldn't be withheld from the public.
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If you receive a stereo from a guy that you know for a fact is stolen, are you not complicit in the crime??
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On December 18 2010 00:42 Hawk wrote:
If you receive a stereo from a guy that you know for a fact is stolen, are you not complicit in the crime??
That only applies to the property value of information.
It is well established that once someone has made the information available to you, you can release it (unless you agreed to keep it secret)
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On December 17 2010 23:53 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 13:52 Offhand wrote:On December 17 2010 10:24 Hawk wrote:On December 17 2010 07:26 JazusZerg wrote:
who the fuck cares about his personality? It sickens me with so much real information to discuss that anyone would spend even a second pondering the trivialities of this dude's love life. Just goes to show how successfully corporate media has numbed public interest in actual news, in favor of TMZ style bullshit.
EDIT, so now that it's apparent that American civil society is fucked, does anyone know a country I can move to with the following traits:
1. Mild winters (I live in SoCal right now, so use that as a model)
2. Pretty girls (see above)
3. Not turning into a fucking fascist state as we speak
How is it not news relevant?? This is the exactly the same ethically as what he is doing: Pulling shit out and showing it for the sake of showing it. Most of the leaks had no news value other than showing people you have access to classified state secrets. You're kidding right? The exact same thing has been done in the past and it was even celebrated in the US.If you don't see the value in what's been revealed through the cables and war logs, it's because you're watching Fox News or some other garbage equivalent. The wikileaks cables are actually having a major impact around the world, but seeing as you qualify as an "average American" it's not surprising you're oblivious. + Show Spoiler +The Croatian PM literally fled his own country because of corruption allegations revealed in the leaks. Do you know what the Pentagon Papers are??? Please find me something comparable to mountains of evidence that several Presidents blatantly lied to the public to induce war. That's why it was celebrated. Not because someone leaked a bunch of stuff. But yeah, wikileaks does such awesome things such as leak profiles of public leaders that are used in negotiations, leaked govt memos detailing how to avoid letting documents get leaked on more than one occasion, just to show how cool and powerful Julian was. Woooooooo. The number of worthless documents that have been leaked for the sake of being leaked far outweighs leaked stuff that has exposed real corruption. The means don't justify the end result; it's theft of classified material that damages country images, international relations and all sorts of shit. For what? So Julian can get people all riled up about the war again or whatever other issues he's got a beef with?
A couple of days ago you criticised Wikileaks for being biased and for not showing all the material. Now you are criticizing them for not showing only relevant material? The whole point with wikileaks, according to Assange, is to publish as much information as possible to give an objective image of reality. And you are absolutely wrong if you think they haven't published important information. Even if you only watch Fox it should be impossible for you to deny it - it will be impossible, anyway, because they have only published 1% of the cable gate material so far.
On December 18 2010 00:42 Hawk wrote:
If you receive a stereo from a guy that you know for a fact is stolen, are you not complicit in the crime??
Didn't you just talk about the importance of the Pentagon papers? God, you're reasoning like a three-year-old.
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On December 17 2010 23:53 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 13:52 Offhand wrote:On December 17 2010 10:24 Hawk wrote:On December 17 2010 07:26 JazusZerg wrote:
who the fuck cares about his personality? It sickens me with so much real information to discuss that anyone would spend even a second pondering the trivialities of this dude's love life. Just goes to show how successfully corporate media has numbed public interest in actual news, in favor of TMZ style bullshit.
EDIT, so now that it's apparent that American civil society is fucked, does anyone know a country I can move to with the following traits:
1. Mild winters (I live in SoCal right now, so use that as a model)
2. Pretty girls (see above)
3. Not turning into a fucking fascist state as we speak
How is it not news relevant?? This is the exactly the same ethically as what he is doing: Pulling shit out and showing it for the sake of showing it. Most of the leaks had no news value other than showing people you have access to classified state secrets. You're kidding right? The exact same thing has been done in the past and it was even celebrated in the US.If you don't see the value in what's been revealed through the cables and war logs, it's because you're watching Fox News or some other garbage equivalent. The wikileaks cables are actually having a major impact around the world, but seeing as you qualify as an "average American" it's not surprising you're oblivious. + Show Spoiler +The Croatian PM literally fled his own country because of corruption allegations revealed in the leaks. Do you know what the Pentagon Papers are??? Please find me something comparable to mountains of evidence that several Presidents blatantly lied to the public to induce war. That's why it was celebrated. Not because someone leaked a bunch of stuff. But yeah, wikileaks does such awesome things such as leak profiles of public leaders that are used in negotiations, leaked govt memos detailing how to avoid letting documents get leaked on more than one occasion, just to show how cool and powerful Julian was. Woooooooo. The number of worthless documents that have been leaked for the sake of being leaked far outweighs leaked stuff that has exposed real corruption. The means don't justify the end result; it's theft of classified material that damages country images, international relations and all sorts of shit. For what? So Julian can get people all riled up about the war again or whatever other issues he's got a beef with?
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. At first people complained that wikileaks released stuff that endangered soldiers and spies, and when CIA confirmed that none of those documents had been published, and nobody had been endangered due to the documents, people started complainin that wikileaks are no better than the govt. and censoring the leaks.
And if the documents were so worthless, why is there such a big priority on stopping JA and wikileaks? Perhaps it has something to do with the documents that are yet to be released?
"But why didn't they just release all the stuff at once?"
Because then alot lies and corruption would drown in the gossip, and would never really be exposed.
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I'd still love for people to show me one leak that's even close to the magnitude of the Pentagon Papers. Seriously, shouldn't be that hard!
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That's an interesting analogy, but the property rights of something physical like a stereo must be different than that of information, which is reproducible. For instance, the Pentagon still has the original copies of all its reports (which contain various sensitive information that Wikileaks redacted). In your analogy, someone is out a stereo.
Imagine you go out one morning to get the newspaper and find an anonymous box on your porch that contains a stereo. That's what goes on when journalists get leaked information. That's why it isn't governed by the same laws that govern petty theft, so it's a little bit useless to call Wikileaks illegal or criminal, although you may find that what they're doing is wrong.
I think the legal status of drugs in the Netherlands is a similar situation. A citizen can fairly go to a shop and use whatever substance he wants, but trafficking the substances is still illegal.
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On December 17 2010 23:53 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 13:52 Offhand wrote:On December 17 2010 10:24 Hawk wrote:On December 17 2010 07:26 JazusZerg wrote:
who the fuck cares about his personality? It sickens me with so much real information to discuss that anyone would spend even a second pondering the trivialities of this dude's love life. Just goes to show how successfully corporate media has numbed public interest in actual news, in favor of TMZ style bullshit.
EDIT, so now that it's apparent that American civil society is fucked, does anyone know a country I can move to with the following traits:
1. Mild winters (I live in SoCal right now, so use that as a model)
2. Pretty girls (see above)
3. Not turning into a fucking fascist state as we speak
How is it not news relevant?? This is the exactly the same ethically as what he is doing: Pulling shit out and showing it for the sake of showing it. Most of the leaks had no news value other than showing people you have access to classified state secrets. You're kidding right? The exact same thing has been done in the past and it was even celebrated in the US.If you don't see the value in what's been revealed through the cables and war logs, it's because you're watching Fox News or some other garbage equivalent. The wikileaks cables are actually having a major impact around the world, but seeing as you qualify as an "average American" it's not surprising you're oblivious. + Show Spoiler +The Croatian PM literally fled his own country because of corruption allegations revealed in the leaks. Do you know what the Pentagon Papers are??? Please find me something comparable to mountains of evidence that several Presidents blatantly lied to the public to induce war. That's why it was celebrated. Not because someone leaked a bunch of stuff. But yeah, wikileaks does such awesome things such as leak profiles of public leaders that are used in negotiations, leaked govt memos detailing how to avoid letting documents get leaked on more than one occasion, just to show how cool and powerful Julian was. Woooooooo. The number of worthless documents that have been leaked for the sake of being leaked far outweighs leaked stuff that has exposed real corruption. The means don't justify the end result; it's theft of classified material that damages country images, international relations and all sorts of shit. For what? So Julian can get people all riled up about the war again or whatever other issues he's got a beef with?
Well, I see the character attack is working quite nicely. Lol
On December 18 2010 01:38 Hawk wrote:
I'd still love for people to show me one leak that's even close to the magnitude of the Pentagon Papers. Seriously, shouldn't be that hard!
It isn't. Take your pick.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/10/wikileaks-reaction-world-reaction
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/7911036/Wikileaks-Afghanistan-log-Wikileaks-10-greatest-scoops.html
http://listphobia.com/2010/12/04/10-top-revelations-from-wikileaks-cables/
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What's your point about the magnitude of a leak? Wikileaks has leaked tons and tons of documents. That's a whole lot of truth, just in principle. Are you talking about the severity of a document's impact? I think it would be a point for Wikileaks that people can see information about corruption and problems in many businesses and agencies of many countries, not just one trophy leak about the U.S. involvement in Vietnam.
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Hawk does your standard for what is "leakworthy" begin at being comparable in magnitude to the pentagon papers, and anything less is therefore not leakworthy, in the public interest or important?
I find the arguments curious, especially the particularly tasty cake that some people seem to be having double servings on in simultaneously saying the leaks are not significant in any respect nor reveal much information in the public interest, yet also speak of how potentially damaging and significant the leaks are, and how officials, soliders, the standing of foreign diplomatic relations and even potential war could break out as a result of them.
Hopefully these people, after stuffing their faces full of self satisfying delicious cake will look at themselves in the mirror and see how fat they have become...
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On December 18 2010 01:49 oBlade wrote:
What's your point about the magnitude of a leak? Wikileaks has leaked tons and tons of documents. That's a whole lot of truth, just in principle. Are you talking about the severity of a document's impact? I think it would be a point for Wikileaks that people can see information about corruption and problems in many businesses and agencies of many countries, not just one trophy leak about the U.S. involvement in Vietnam.
People will dismiss any fact, any proof, any obviously wrong action, so long as they don't have to change their opinion. The US is in for a shock in the next few years when the people figure out you can't do that indefinitely.
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It's frankly, quite disturbing how many people are ready and willing to dismiss Assange, Manning, and Wikileaks based on the tiny trickle of the deluge that is to come. We've received... what, 1000 out of the supposed 250,000 cables and already people have arrived at the ultimate conclusion that Assange just releases stuff to play anarchist, Manning is a traitor that pretends to be a whistleblower, and Wikileaks doesn't have anything good and is only destabilizing the US for no good reason?
I will laugh and laugh if it turns out, all the way at the end, months from now, after all kinds of stuff is released that implicates politicians and banks and corporations and whatnot, Wikileaks finishes it off with a final release documenting the entire orchestration of the Iraq War or something.
Look, either the leaks are all insignificant and thus there's really no point to go after Wikileaks, Assange, and Manning like this other than because we're pissed, or at least some of the leaks are game-changing and thus we enter the realm of whistle-blowing and it's time to consider their implications. You can't have it both ways, and since we don't even have all the cables yet, you can't have it any way at all.
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sorry I know this is a random question but how exactly do you pronounce Assange?
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On December 07 2010 02:01 VIB wrote:
Switzerland just froze his bank account there.
Yeah, that was pretty sad, though the bank that did it is probably getting sued by the state for doing so.
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nvm
but whats a spread and why those polls dont add up to 100%?
(in the foxnews link down-right corner)
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Has any one found any thing interesting?
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EPT
