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On December 06 2018 00:35 travis wrote:
a dream of mine is to avoid ever having to work with databases
but perhaps that dream should die
That's a pretty stupid dream indeed  Even small local projects often need local databases (Hell, even a single file can under some circumstances be called a database). It is the most efficient way to store information after all.
Doesn't mean you have to be an expert or proficient in all types of databases, but knowing some basic SQL is a bare minimum imo.
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On December 06 2018 00:35 travis wrote:
a dream of mine is to avoid ever having to work with databases
but perhaps that dream should die
To do that you'd have to be pure front-end (cutting layouts, css, html, minimum of JS).
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ok well I also want to avoid html, and definitely avoid CSS and probably avoid JS too
what jobs are left
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On December 06 2018 00:51 travis wrote:
ok well I also want to avoid html, and definitely avoid CSS and probably avoid JS too
what jobs are left
janitor 
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On December 06 2018 00:51 travis wrote:
ok well I also want to avoid html, and definitely avoid CSS and probably avoid JS too
what jobs are left
You could always become a QA tester...
Or learn an old language, like Cobol. Pays an absolutely fortune because only a handful still knows them, but companies still have it in use and are dependant on it. Not entirely sure you'll get away from databases tho..
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On December 06 2018 00:51 travis wrote:
ok well I also want to avoid html, and definitely avoid CSS and probably avoid JS too
what jobs are left
Avoiding html, css and JS is easy, just don't become a a web dev... Avoiding databases altogether might be difficult, but I imagine there are plenty of jobs where your interaction with databases amounts to basic SQL only.
Maybe if you go into much more theoretical stuff like cryptography/blockchain? But you'd definitely need a degree in that, to get such a job, I imagine.
I say all this as a CS student, so I don't really know the industry that well.
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On December 06 2018 00:51 travis wrote:
ok well I also want to avoid html, and definitely avoid CSS and probably avoid JS too
what jobs are left
Microcontrollers? Robotics? Mechatronics in general I believe. Basically, extremely low level stuff.
On December 06 2018 01:16 solidbebe wrote:
Avoiding html, css and JS is easy, just don't become a a web dev...
You can be a web dev and still avoid them. Just go pure back-end (like I did), but then you must be good with databases, servers and shit.
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I guess mobile development doesn't involve databases or javascript/css/html? Correct me if im wrong
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On December 06 2018 01:24 solidbebe wrote:
I guess mobile development doesn't involve databases or javascript/css/html? Correct me if im wrong
Wrong on all accounts (you can get away with avoiding some of them, but most apps do use those parts)
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what kind of sick person introduced javascript/css/html to app development?
edit For sure there must be jobs in game development without javascript/css/html/databases
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On December 06 2018 01:26 solidbebe wrote:
what kind of sick person introduced javascript/css/html to app development?
edit For sure there must be jobs in game development without javascript/css/html/databases
You might need it if your app is running off of server-side api. Or if you introduce third-party log-in (not sure about FB/Google but some custom solutions need you to interact with web stuff and integrate it into your app).
For game dev how do you think asset locations, unit stats etc. are stored? It's a form of local db (I guess that'll be sqlite in most cases but I have very little experience with game dev). HTML/CSS and JS can be avoided in this field.
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On December 06 2018 00:51 travis wrote:
ok well I also want to avoid html, and definitely avoid CSS and probably avoid JS too
what jobs are left
Embedded. Trust me there is whole world where java is a curse word and You rarely need to worry about anything resembling webpage or database.
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On December 06 2018 01:28 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2018 01:26 solidbebe wrote:
what kind of sick person introduced javascript/css/html to app development?
edit For sure there must be jobs in game development without javascript/css/html/databases You might need it if your app is running off of server-side api. Or if you introduce third-party log-in (not sure about FB/Google but some custom solutions need you to interact with web stuff and integrate it into your app). For game dev how do you think asset locations, unit stats etc. are stored? It's a form of local db (I guess that'll be sqlite in most cases but I have very little experience with game dev). HTML/CSS and JS can be avoided in this field.
Well of course you need to store your assets somewhere, it might be some type of database. But there is a big difference in a job that really revolves around databases, and a job which interacts with a database from to time. You really need to know nothing about databases to just retrieve your zergling textures or what have you.
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On December 06 2018 01:24 solidbebe wrote:
I guess mobile development doesn't involve databases or javascript/css/html? Correct me if im wrong
Since mobile apps generally can store less on the drive than a windows application, you're generally reliant on databases. I have never made a mobile app beyond "hello world" which has not been connected to a database of some kind.
You can make apps without js/html (Tho a lot of them use that as well), however css is worse. Most front end frameworks rely on some variant of css for their layouts.
On December 06 2018 01:26 solidbebe wrote:
what kind of sick person introduced javascript/css/html to app development?
edit For sure there must be jobs in game development without javascript/css/html/databases
I have yet to touch js/css/html in game development, tho I have mostly stuck with Unity so far. Databases tho: again, everything that is stored can be stored better in a database. If all you need storing is a settings file, then you don't need to worry about it. However if you need to store anything over the web (login, high scores, save states, assets, etc) then again you're reliant on a database.
Getting around html/js isn't difficult, With the exception of some Kubernetes stuff I did last year I haven't touched either of them since graduating. But databases are so widely used for absolutely everything right now that you're pretty much required to touch one at some point or another. Again, it doesn't have to be complex, but basic sql knowledge is a must.
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im mostly kidding with the "avoid all stuff remotely related to the web", except I really really really did hate the time I tried to take a look at learning CSS. Really not my thing. I don't know how anyone can stand it... probably highly visual people like it? Artistic types? Or maybe I am all in my own head.
it doesn't help that everything I read praises CSS and how great it is, but when I tried to learn it, it actually seemed insanely convoluted. Maybe it's the kind of thing that would be easier to learn with a structured class.
I did have to work with SQL for a tiny bit for a class. Wasn't really a fan of it but mostly because it just didn't seem very fun. If I had to work with it I suppose it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.
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On December 06 2018 02:21 travis wrote:i
t doesn't help that everything I read praises CSS and how great it is, but when I tried to learn it, it actually seemed insanely convoluted. Maybe it's the kind of thing that would be easier to learn with a structured class.
I can't quite fathom where you've read anything like that. No one likes css... Sure you can do some mind blowing things in css if you really go for it, but for the majority of us css is something that we tolerate at best. Like every job, not everything you do as a programmer is fun. But you often (if not always) have to do non fun parts to support the fun parts of your project.
Case in point: I'm working with AR/VR/MR technology right now. Super fun, right? And it is! Except for about 50% of my time spent doing backend stuff like databases, image processing on virtual machines, build/compilation pipelines, data lakes, authorisation, bureaucracy, and arguing with other teams and scientists on how incorporate their stuff into our app.
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On December 06 2018 02:21 travis wrote:
im mostly kidding with the "avoid all stuff remotely related to the web", except I really really really did hate the time I tried to take a look at learning CSS. Really not my thing. I don't know how anyone can stand it... probably highly visual people like it? Artistic types? Or maybe I am all in my own head.
it doesn't help that everything I read praises CSS and how great it is, but when I tried to learn it, it actually seemed insanely convoluted. Maybe it's the kind of thing that would be easier to learn with a structured class.
I did have to work with SQL for a tiny bit for a class. Wasn't really a fan of it but mostly because it just didn't seem very fun. If I had to work with it I suppose it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.
I hate it too, but CSS really is fucking fantastic when you compare it to what we had before...
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On December 06 2018 04:15 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2018 02:21 travis wrote:
im mostly kidding with the "avoid all stuff remotely related to the web", except I really really really did hate the time I tried to take a look at learning CSS. Really not my thing. I don't know how anyone can stand it... probably highly visual people like it? Artistic types? Or maybe I am all in my own head.
it doesn't help that everything I read praises CSS and how great it is, but when I tried to learn it, it actually seemed insanely convoluted. Maybe it's the kind of thing that would be easier to learn with a structured class.
I did have to work with SQL for a tiny bit for a class. Wasn't really a fan of it but mostly because it just didn't seem very fun. If I had to work with it I suppose it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. I hate it too, but CSS really is fucking fantastic when you compare it to what we had before...
HTML styling was great. Make an iframe to create a new background area.
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On December 06 2018 00:51 travis wrote:
ok well I also want to avoid html, and definitely avoid CSS and probably avoid JS too
what jobs are left
That sounds like my first programming job out of school. It was for a large insurance company that broke its developers up into overly specialized teams that each worked on only a small portion of the application. I rarely needed to write sql and never needed to touch front end stuff.
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On December 06 2018 05:01 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2018 04:15 Acrofales wrote:On December 06 2018 02:21 travis wrote:
im mostly kidding with the "avoid all stuff remotely related to the web", except I really really really did hate the time I tried to take a look at learning CSS. Really not my thing. I don't know how anyone can stand it... probably highly visual people like it? Artistic types? Or maybe I am all in my own head.
it doesn't help that everything I read praises CSS and how great it is, but when I tried to learn it, it actually seemed insanely convoluted. Maybe it's the kind of thing that would be easier to learn with a structured class.
I did have to work with SQL for a tiny bit for a class. Wasn't really a fan of it but mostly because it just didn't seem very fun. If I had to work with it I suppose it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. I hate it too, but CSS really is fucking fantastic when you compare it to what we had before... HTML styling was great. Make an iframe to create a new background area.
Please do not fucking start this... In the beginning of my career I wanted to be a front-end guy. If you think about it, in the front-end world CSS vs inline styling is like Latex vs MS Word - not really, but the gist of it is that in one (MS Word, I'll spell it out for you so you don't get confused) you're more focused on WYSIWYG and in the other it's the logical structure that takes precedence.
Anyway, take my word for it, CSS is great for front-end world. And stuff like LESS and SASS is even better. Still, they are things that anyone who'd like to call themselves a programmer will usually steer clear of (just like JS).
On December 06 2018 08:31 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2018 00:51 travis wrote:
ok well I also want to avoid html, and definitely avoid CSS and probably avoid JS too
what jobs are left That sounds like my first programming job out of school. It was for a large insurance company that broke its developers up into overly specialized teams that each worked on only a small portion of the application. I rarely needed to write sql and never needed to touch front end stuff.
It's awesome and bad at the same time. Since it was your first job it's really bad. In my experience it's best to start learning as a full stack developer, where you get to touch a bit of everything - front-end, back-end, servers, database. Only after you've experienced everything and had to deal with tough problems within each category can you really make an informed decision on what you really like. Especially that some of those problems cross borders (why waste time implementing something in the back-end when you can do it db-side and it'll be 10x more efficient?). You can't really say that "I want to focus on this thing because I don't like the other thing" because sooner or later you'll come against a problem that is crossing those boundaries and then having even the basic experience in other fields is fucking priceless.
I'm not talking about theoretical things here. I'm a guy who switched jobs entirely, went into development starting from unpaid internship and got up to senior developer/senior software architect/devops (sounds exaggerated but that's what I actually have to do in a multi-million euro company) position. 99% of my experience with programming is stuff that's making people money and trust me, in the end that's all that matters to the stakeholders. You learn to fucking swallow your pride, ideals etc. and focus on delivering stuff that works and is at the same time stuff that you want to work with (you wouldn't believe how many people don't follow those 2 rules and you end up maintaining 15 year old soft that doesn't even work as it should). Along the way you'll make compromises, you'll deal with stuff you don't really like, but in the end it'll work and everyone will be happy.
Here's a real life example of how shitty things can be (but you fucking deal with it because you are, or want to be, a professional):
My current sprints last 2 weeks. This Tuesday was the end of last sprint and beginning of new sprint. Last sprint I've finished all my coding work on Tuesday (5 days ahead of schedule). Then we discovered that some parts of our staging environment are not working (multiple independent teams fucking it up all the time, microservices at its finest). Since we couldn't get it to the state that we can test our code there we were not able to push to production. Now we have a new 2-week sprint where my coding is 100% complete from the get go and I have 2 weeks to fix staging environment and prove it really works (this is mostly server-side devops work). Life.
Edit:
Don't get me wrong. It's super frustrating, tedious work, but at the end of it you know stuff that's fucking magic to normal developer. Stuff like: how many records can Redis expire in a minute? How much data you can store in a single Aerospike record before you have to fragment it? How to use probabilistic databases that get what you want with 99% accuracy?
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EPT
