EPTThe European Debt Crisis and the Euro - Page 25
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Aristodemus
England1996 Posts
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SchOOl_VicTIm
Greece2394 Posts
I'm not saying ANYTHING about possible/impossible solutions and alternatives and whatever because it's a whole other deal. I'm talking about reasoning of the crisis. And even though tax invasions and political corruptions and scandals and cultural differences and human evil genes or whatever else might be also contributing to whole deal, it's not hard to see the real MAJOR cause of it. Please take the time and watch the following video where academic David Harvey puts it very well into words and the RSA Animate crew does a hell of a job to present his whole speech through lovely eye-candy drawings | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6638 Posts
On May 11 2011 04:47 SchOOl_VicTIm wrote: It amazes me how people continue to fail to realize the obvious (?) REASON of the whole economic problem which is non other than the capitalistic system in itself. The way it's structured, the way it's supposed to work, the way it's everywhere in our lives today is the one creating the crisis of the past and the one today and the ones that have yet to come, here in europe or there in the usa or wherever else will follow (I won't even touch on it being the reason for the wars that are taking place everywhere or the crimes that are taking part because of capitalism in africa and 3rd world countries in general). Really, it doesn't take that much effort to look around and find a surplus of articles and books and documentaries on this subject and help one reach this conclusion. I'm not saying ANYTHING about possible/impossible solutions and alternatives and whatever because it's a whole other deal. I'm talking about reasoning of the crisis. And even though tax invasions and political corruptions and scandals and cultural differences and human evil genes or whatever else might be also contributing to whole deal, it's not hard to see the real MAJOR cause of it. Please take the time and watch the following video where academic David Harvey puts it very well into words and the RSA Animate crew does a hell of a job to present his whole speech through lovely eye-candy drawings http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0 I thought the main reason (aside from government corruption) for the whole PIIGS dilemma was that these countries couldn't compete properly with the rest of the Eurozone and that's why the bailout of Greece, Ireland and Portugal have been necessary. France/Germany/Benelux are all fine operating under the same system. I'm confident that Italy and Spain can control their problems and won't need to be bailed out. | ||
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SchOOl_VicTIm
Greece2394 Posts
Also, you're quoting my post and replying to it directly without having watched the video which is pretty much the essence (and maybe the reason) of my post. | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6638 Posts
On May 11 2011 04:56 SchOOl_VicTIm wrote: Seriously where do you base your confidence on? Also, you're quoting my post and replying to it directly without having watched the video which is pretty much the essence (and maybe the reason) of my post. Those two countries have stronger and larger economies than the other three and have taken more measures to keep the country on track AFAIK. But, if they do require a bailout then it's gonna be a big problem. And yeah, that shouldn't have been directed exactly at you, I will watch the video now. | ||
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Deleted User 124618
1142 Posts
Finland is a net-payer in EU along with Germany & Co. GDP is up 10% last year, tax revenues are on the rise rapidly and they plan to take the remaining defecit and debt head-on during this electoral cycle. "Our half" of EU is going to be fine. The Lazy Countries....I do not know. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6236 Posts
On May 11 2011 03:39 xafies wrote: 18 billion? nice, so that means it's only about ~320 billion euros left for the debt to be cleared. Seriously corruption in the greek government was so huge that blaming it mostly on the people not paying taxes is a bit of a joke. Obv the people make their governments etc but you have to understand that the greek public had no idea whatsoever wtf is going on with the whole debt situation before the huge crisis broke out. On the other hand there were happy loaners everywhere ,huge spending on military equipment (submarines from germany in order to give us a loan ), big time corporations like siemens spreading tentacles everywhere inside the greek state etc etc. And then I hear of oversimplifications like: it's my father's fault because he didn't retire at 67. It's only natural that people are searching for scapegoats, but simplifying everything and treating all different sorts of people with tags like "lazy/tax evading greeks" shows nationalistic foolishness edit I am not saying that tax evasion isn't a big problem, in order to stop it the state has to gain the people's trust again. Measures have already been taken,I don't know what else can be done about this whole messy situation Chill out mate I wasn't saying that was the only reason or even the worst reason for this crisis in Greece it's just one of many and it's certainly not a small one either. and that 18 billion is yearly btw and that's a lot of money for a country as big as Greece but yeah there's still a lot to be done. edit: and for the guy blaming capitalism, every economic system has financial crisis you cant blame capitalism for that... | ||
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Doctorbeat
Netherlands13241 Posts
On May 11 2011 04:47 SchOOl_VicTIm wrote: It amazes me how people continue to fail to realize the obvious (?) REASON of the whole economic problem which is non other than the capitalistic system in itself. The way it's structured, the way it's supposed to work, the way it's everywhere in our lives today is the one creating the crisis of the past and the one today and the ones that have yet to come, here in europe or there in the usa or wherever else will follow (I won't even touch on it being the reason for the wars that are taking place everywhere or the crimes that are taking part because of capitalism in africa and 3rd world countries in general or environmental destruction or all kinds of other issues). Really, it doesn't take that much effort to look around and find a surplus of articles and books and documentaries on this subject and help one reach this conclusion. I'm not saying ANYTHING about possible/impossible solutions and alternatives and whatever because it's a whole other deal. I'm talking about reasoning of the crisis. And even though tax invasions and political corruptions and scandals and cultural differences and human evil genes or whatever else might be also contributing to whole deal, it's not hard to see the real MAJOR cause of it. Please take the time and watch the following video where academic David Harvey puts it very well into words and the RSA Animate crew does a hell of a job to present his whole speech through lovely eye-candy drawings http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0 Capitalism took us to where we are now. Based on that I'd say capitalism is pretty darn awesome. I'll watch that vid when you go read Indur Goklany's The Improving State of the World, k? | ||
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SchOOl_VicTIm
Greece2394 Posts
On May 11 2011 05:11 Doctorbeat wrote: Capitalism took us to where we are now. That's exactly my point lol Thanks for the recommendation, I'll try to check it out | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On May 11 2011 05:03 Greentellon wrote: EURO is not going down. The only "crisis of capitalism" is dumba** politicians who won't amputate the necrotic dead tissue, instead trying to bandaid it. The whole point of capitalism is that if you take risks you will have to pay for them. No bailouts thank you. Finland is a net-payer in EU along with Germany & Co. GDP is up 10% last year, tax revenues are on the rise rapidly and they plan to take the remaining defecit and debt head-on during this electoral cycle. "Our half" of EU is going to be fine. The Lazy Countries....I do not know. I'm almost certain you voted for some kind of populistic extreme right party that won the elections two weeks ago.. You know, the Finnish version of the Tea Party.. Those True Finns.. So what you're saying is that whenever a country is doing horrible, the EU should just drop and and leave its citizens to rot? That's sounds like a really humane thing to do! | ||
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Vespasian
Romania44 Posts
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Doctorbeat
Netherlands13241 Posts
On May 11 2011 05:19 maartendq wrote: I'm almost certain you voted for some kind of populistic extreme right party that won the elections two weeks ago.. You know, the Finnish version of the Tea Party.. Those True Finns.. So what you're saying is that whenever a country is doing horrible, the EU should just drop and and leave its citizens to rot? That's sounds like a really humane thing to do! When a country is doing horrible, the people responsible for it being horrible should be held accountable. In this case, that would be the Greek government. And seeing as the Greeks get to vote for their government, I don't see why the Greeks shouldn't suffer aswell. The Greeks should either revolt to instate new government, or stay quiet and pay up. If the old government really was corrupt, prosecute them! I don't see how in any way my country could be responsible for the situation the Greeks are in now, so it doesn't make much sense to me that my country gets to pay for another's mistakes. | ||
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luckybeni2
Germany1065 Posts
On May 11 2011 05:11 Doctorbeat wrote: Capitalism took us to where we are now. Based on that I'd say capitalism is pretty darn awesome. I'll watch that vid when you go read Indur Goklany's The Improving State of the World, k? Not really. A combination of many movements brought us where we are now. The more prosperous states of today are usually where they are because of a combination of socialist ideas and (a controlled) free market. Those that are at the very bad end usually have either only capitalism or a combination of authocratic government with an economy with somewhat of a socialist (but not really) part in it. Those states that have a real pure capitalist system are the poorest in the world. | ||
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TheFrankOne
United States667 Posts
The financial crisis tightened global credit markets enough to make PIIGS borrowing more difficult in addition to the fact their debt turned out to be worse than they had claimed to get into the Eurozone. These two problems together created the situation we have today. We need more transparency from government finances and banks, saying capitalism and neoclassical economics are clearly wrong is ridiculous. Bounded rationality limits how rational people can be, the less hidden financial transactions are the more rational people can be about it. The root problems in the PIIGS crisis are more of a result of socialist policies than capitalist ones, and the American problems are more capitalist/imperialist problems than socialist ones, we in America have constantly cut taxes to a 50 year low while allowing debt to skyrocket because wars were waged and social spending barely took a hit. We are still trying to have everything and I think our overseas engagements should be the first place to cut costs. | ||
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Warlike Prince
371 Posts
I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs. Thomas Jefferson All currency that is controlled by private banks such as the euro and the dollar are not only doomed to fail but intended too. We grow the cotton weave it in to fabric engrave the ink embed the strips and fibers that prevent counterfeit then cart the money off to a private bank to be lent back with interest And people are trying to blame capitalism END THE FED | ||
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TheFrankOne
United States667 Posts
On May 11 2011 05:27 Warlike Prince wrote: I believe this quote is in order I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs. Thomas Jefferson All currency that is controlled by private banks such as the euro and the dollar are not only doomed to fail but intended too. We grow the cotton weave it in to fabric engrave the ink embed the strips and fibers that prevent counterfeit then cart the money off to a private bank to be lent back with interest And people are trying to blame capitalism END THE FED Jefferson only said that because he hated Alexander Hamilton. The founding fathers had some personal problems among each other. | ||
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Warlike Prince
371 Posts
On May 11 2011 05:35 TheFrankOne wrote: Jefferson only said that because he hated Alexander Hamilton. The founding fathers had some personal problems among each other. So he said it but didnt mean it? as in private banks controlling a countrys money isn't the worst thing possible for that country? | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
10,000th post on this -.- | ||
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TheFrankOne
United States667 Posts
At the time Jefferson said the comment about banking institution Alexander Hamilton controlled the nations finances and the establishment of a national bank was a heated topic of debate. Jefferson wanted to limit both the federal government's power and Alexander Hamilton's power. So he can be assumed to have overstated some things. edit: grammar/spelling | ||
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zaP_
28 Posts
if i would get my old-age pension with 50 years and than suddenly realize my country's economy is crashing i would never ever say thats cause of the lifestyle i and a lot of other people have in my country (cause working till the age of 50 is damn chilled man). Of course I rather would blame the capitalism, the social system, the earth, god and my fat cat for the misery my country is in. But it cant be our fault, nooo, and if somehow yes, so the other ones should start to change their lifestyle first, not me...why me?...why me? | ||
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