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On December 22 2010 14:15 bUbUsHeD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 07:59 ondik wrote:Nigel Farage is HERO. Must be hard working with people that hate you because you're expressing unpopular yet very true opinions. You guys in USA have no idea how rotten the EU is  He is the best. Not only a great speaker but also the only one to fight the rotten socialist scum that 99% of EU parliament is. If there were people like him in the CZ, there could be a real chance to leave this megalomaniac EU style Soviet Union project and actually have a prosperous country to live in.
As one of the rotten socialist scum you are talking about I would like to know the reason behind your choice of words. I want to hear the arguments, I actually really do.
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On December 22 2010 14:35 Tufas wrote:
I want to hear the arguments
History isn't enough?
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You randomly throw something in there ... this is exactly what I ment.
What DO you/you mean ? (plural)
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It's frustrating how rational arguments on both sides are hijacked by imbeciles.
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It's fun when people from countries which, from an economic standpoint, a few years ago were basically piss poor shitholes hate against the EU which did nothing but help them to become "better".
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On December 22 2010 13:19 Letall wrote:
Got some questions for you guys here, can Germany abandon the Euro and go back to a currency of their own? If so what where to happen to the Euro?
I really dont get it.The german never said they wanted to.They do not want,do not need,never will leave the euro.It's a big plus for them.
I thought only US anti-EU guys were throwing that left and right,seems like even swedes start now>.<.The Euro is safe with France Germany Benelux Italy.Those countries are pretty much one for the rest of their existence now.
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hmm, it sounds unrealistic if the euro should go down, so many countries have it now. Removing the euro would result in a total world economic crisis and chaos? On the other hand, I cant really see what problems removing the euro would solve.. I really hope euro keeps evovling and more countries will use it, makes things easier and countries more integrated with the world in general.
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On December 22 2010 22:43 clementdudu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 13:19 Letall wrote:
Got some questions for you guys here, can Germany abandon the Euro and go back to a currency of their own? If so what where to happen to the Euro? I really dont get it.The german never said they wanted to.They do not want,do not need,never will leave the euro.It's a big plus for them. I thought only US anti-EU guys were throwing that left and right,seems like even swedes start now>.<.The Euro is safe with France Germany Benelux Italy.Those countries are pretty much one for the rest of their existence now.
ya the only thing that may happen is we all drop the euro and start a new currency without the southern countries.
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On January 05 2011 04:24 linklink wrote:
On the other hand, I cant really see what problems removing the euro would solve..
People claim that countries with a lot of debt, like Greece or Irland, could, if they had their own currency, devaluate it to the point were their exports could massively profit from this (by artifically cheapening products). Or if the situation is worse they could declare bankruptcy and restart. However, that is neither really an option, nor a solution. But it is what they say..
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I love the Euro. Finally Europe might learn some fiscal responsibility and improve their living conditions instead of becoming the laughingstock of the economic world. The Euro is the best possible thing to happen to a socialist continent since it's hard to be socialist when you can't just print your next paycheck.
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On January 05 2011 04:41 darmousseh wrote:
I love the Euro. Finally Europe might learn some fiscal responsibility and improve their living conditions instead of becoming the laughingstock of the economic world. The Euro is the best possible thing to happen to a socialist continent since it's hard to be socialist when you can't just print your next paycheck.
Thank you sir for demonstrating how an "ignorant american" would reply to the matter. You are seriously from USA and talking about financially responsibility and being the laughingstock of the economic world? Haha.
Also, you know nothing about socialism, don't believe everything you read in your propaganda of freedom...or wait never mind, I wouldn't even bother if I were you.
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On December 22 2010 22:43 clementdudu wrote:
I really dont get it.The german never said they wanted to.They do not want,do not need,never will leave the euro.It's a big plus for them.
I thought only US anti-EU guys were throwing that left and right,seems like even swedes start now>.<.The Euro is safe with France Germany Benelux Italy.Those countries are pretty much one for the rest of their existence now.
Dear fellow-citizen, I'm quoting you because this kind of bullshit (what I balded) pisses me so much...
The UE is a political choice, it only exists because the European leaders have decided it had to exist. If the UE is no longer relevant, there's no reason for it to stay. The UE failed to fight the financial crisis, it failed to fight America's influence on international politics (remember the division when they invaded Iraq ?), failed to help the poorer countries on the long run (see the situation of Ireland or Portugal).
Europe is more and more a big machine deprived of any link with people. The French said no to the constitution ? Who cares ?! Just make the parliament vote it ! Same for the Netherlands. And for the Irish, they can vote until they vote right ! Democracy ? Who gives a fuck ?!
The euro is just an absurd mess created for political reason, I mean the minimal wage in Poland is like half France's one, yet these countries MUST have the same currency ? Why ?
Yes the euro is going down, this shit makes no sense ! And with it, the UE will probably fall too, finally I must say.
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On January 05 2011 04:41 darmousseh wrote:
I love the Euro. Finally Europe might learn some fiscal responsibility and improve their living conditions instead of becoming the laughingstock of the economic world. The Euro is the best possible thing to happen to a socialist continent since it's hard to be socialist when you can't just print your next paycheck.
Thats an interesting thought, especially if you consider that the United States economy is smaller, has a bigger problem with debt and imports way more from the EU than the other way around. It also spends way less FDI into the EU than EU invests into the USA.
Specially interesting to say "print your next paycheck" with those kind of staticstics and the FED printing money nonstop for the past couple of month while the EU hasn't.
I guess you have to wait till the rating agencys drop the creditbility of the USA before you would start putting some real thoughts into this.
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On December 22 2010 19:24 Velr wrote:
It's fun when people from countries which, from an economic standpoint, a few years ago were basically piss poor shitholes hate against the EU which did nothing but help them to become "better".
I can tell you how it looks from my point of view (Poland)
acually EU is not dosent realy help
ofc i can see EU money everywhere but it goes like this:
I pay my taxes to my gov
my gov pays money to eu(1% of PKB or sth like that)
EU pays all their officials sets up stupid laws (for example sugar limits in my county production is nearly equal to demand but because of EU limits we have to export and import the same amount)
then they send money to us and its not the money that goes directly to gov that can spend is as its needed(but since my gov is super retarded its maby not realy bad)
instead it goes for some stupid trainings that no one rly needs(seriously many of them are just a waste of money)
you also see EU propaganda everywhere and these thing cost
some of the money are being spend on roads and investitions but they are never 100% donated people see many investitions in their area but they dont realise that their town in moust cases and even pay that 50-60% of investition money but city officials see the chance of getting free money and they decide to take debt they wont be able to hande(but who cares when you hope for reelection) and it will backlash after some time
right now we get more money from EU than we pay but this money is being wasted in many cases and it will stop some day
the whole idea of eu dotations is kinda bad particullar countries may gain from it but overall you need to collect them send to EU gov pay for EU bureaucracy and send money back to all the countries
and yet not many people think like that because(as mentioned earler) both media and public education go with all out pro-EU propaganda(like at the comunists times but now i can at least tell that i dont like it) even in one of the TV quiz in each episode there are about 5-4 questions about stuff that is being founded by EU
when Lisbon Treaty was being pushed by parlament media wouldint tell a thing aboust what it will cause im pretty sure that even now like 70% of them dosent know that because of this EU law > our constiitution
and back to EURO - I think it would be best if it falls ASAP the longer it lasts the more damage to EU economy it deals
having your own currency not only allows for control over it by goverment but also by itself balances in the best way posible import and export
sorry for my way of writing i guess it might be hard to understand and my english isint perfect(but belive me i try rly hard not to make too many parentheses(i really have the envy to make to make alot of them(even inside of others)))
EDIT @NormandyBoy
100% agree with you but Poland is not yet in eurozone we have it written that we have to join someday but it might be even 3050 and we dont meet the criteria even if we wanted to(btw and my gov is so retarded thet they would propably do that if they could just to show how wonderfull they are)
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Zurich15365 Posts
On January 05 2011 06:01 JAN0L wrote:
sorry for my way of writing i guess it might be hard to understand and my english isint perfect(but belive me i try rly hard not to make too many parentheses(i really have the envy to make to make alot of them(even inside of others)))
There is absolutely no reason that you can't properly capitalize or use a spell checker. Do that in the future please if you want to post on TL.
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On January 05 2011 05:07 NormandyBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 22:43 clementdudu wrote:
I really dont get it.The german never said they wanted to.They do not want,do not need,never will leave the euro.It's a big plus for them.
I thought only US anti-EU guys were throwing that left and right,seems like even swedes start now>.<.The Euro is safe with France Germany Benelux Italy.Those countries are pretty much one for the rest of their existence now. Dear fellow-citizen, I'm quoting you because this kind of bullshit (what I balded) pisses me so much... The UE is a political choice, it only exists because the European leaders have decided it had to exist. If the UE is no longer relevant, there's no reason for it to stay. The UE failed to fight the financial crisis, it failed to fight America's influence on international politics (remember the division when they invaded Iraq ?), failed to help the poorer countries on the long run (see the situation of Ireland or Portugal). Europe is more and more a big machine deprived of any link with people. The French said no to the constitution ? Who cares ?! Just make the parliament vote it ! Same for the Netherlands. And for the Irish, they can vote until they vote right ! Democracy ? Who gives a fuck ?! The euro is just an absurd mess created for political reason, I mean the minimal wage in Poland is like half France's one, yet these countries MUST have the same currency ? Why ? Yes the euro is going down, this shit makes no sense ! And with it, the UE will probably fall too, finally I must say.
The EU was definitely a failed attempt at international federalism. It's like the US on a much grander scale. The problem is that the EU is trying to govern many different economies, and it is trying to do so from a socialist approach. Socialism does not work when parts are not equal. The reason it is viable at all in countries like Sweden and Norway is because the majority of the population is like-minded, the country uniform, and the threat of external forces minimal. This does not hold true for Europe as a whole.
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I am under the impression that the Merkel cabinet is committed to the EU and the Euro, and is attempting to talk up all its strengths and damage control its glaring weaknesses. However, this attitude is less resilient and more pragmatic than it would instantly seem. It is the product of the government's native conservatism and caution. If one day, the pro-Euro stance should become indefensible in public debate, the politicians will follow the tide of time.
There are two basic arguments invoked to rally support to the Euro: one political and one economic. The one is the conviction (or lack of imagination?) that the EU is the only guarantor of peace and political stability in Europe, that without the EU, national politics would recede into nationalism. According to that rather bland post-modern line of thought, nationalism breeds hate, bigotry and war.
The other, somewhat of as an afterthought, is that German competitiveness is enhanced by the Euro, and that German exports are dependent on the advantages incurred by being in a common currency.
It rarely occurs to anyone to point out that these two arguments in defense of the Euro are mutually exclusive in temper. The one appeals to internationalists, and the other to nationalists. It's also fairly successful, I think. Some wag once said that the Germans are one of those people who believe what they read in the papers 
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On January 05 2011 04:41 darmousseh wrote:
I love the Euro. Finally Europe might learn some fiscal responsibility and improve their living conditions instead of becoming the laughingstock of the economic world. The Euro is the best possible thing to happen to a socialist continent since it's hard to be socialist when you can't just print your next paycheck.
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
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On January 05 2011 06:18 MoltkeWarding wrote:
The other, somewhat of as an afterthought, is that German competitiveness is enhanced by the Euro, and that German exports are dependent on the advantages incurred by being in a common currency.
Actually the idea was that the rest of the EU countries would benefit from the lower rates the market demanded from Germany - for example Greece would be able as if it were (or closer to) Germany. Cheaper debt would then translate into easier growth. This is consistent with the political argument you outlined.
Also, to people pointing out how heterogeneous Europe is: yes, this is true, but so are many large countries such as India, China and to some extent the US. The level of integration the EU is aiming for will require centuries to be achieved, it is pointless to judge the EU now imho.
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On January 05 2011 06:31 Hatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 06:18 MoltkeWarding wrote:
The other, somewhat of as an afterthought, is that German competitiveness is enhanced by the Euro, and that German exports are dependent on the advantages incurred by being in a common currency. Actually the idea was that the rest of the EU countries would benefit from the lower rates the market demanded from Germany - for example Greece would be able as if it were (or closer to) Germany. Cheaper debt would then translate into easier growth. This is consistent with the political argument you outlined. Also, to people pointing out how heterogeneous Europe is: yes, this is true, but so are many large countries such as India, China and to some extent the US. The level of integration the EU is aiming for will require centuries to be achieved, it is pointless to judge the EU now imho.
The rate of a sovereign bond is based on the state of that country's finances. The recently proffered Euro-bond has been rejected by the German government. Germany is evidently not willing to share the costs of borrowing with Greece.
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EPT
