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dollar and euro both had crisis recently. us (united states) could deal with it easily - washington tells what to do and itll be done, no matter what. eu (european union) cannot - their leadership is only show, all countries decide what to do for their own.
i btw. think the german way is the wrong way, and so think 80% of the germans, problem is only germans dont go on the streets. if the same would have been done by france or sweden or whatever country there would be riots.
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On May 21 2010 21:13 Heimatloser wrote: dollar and euro both had crisis recently. us (united states) could deal with it easily - washington tells what to do and itll be done, no matter what. eu (european union) cannot - their leadership is only show, all countries decide what to do for their own.
i btw. think the german way is the wrong way, and so think 80% of the germans, problem is only germans dont go on the streets. if the same would have been done by france or sweden or whatever country there would be riots. French also think it's the wrong way to face this crisis, but they think it's a minor & technical problem. My country is waiting, let's hope they don't wait for too long.
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On May 21 2010 07:04 PaD wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 04:17 Smorrie wrote: Anyway, like I said I don't know too much about all this crap But what I do know is that countries like the Netherlands get fucked over really hard. Relatively to other countries we've always been paying a lot to the EU and will keep on doing so.. At the same time we barely have anything to say in the EU and I'm pretty sure that the value of the "advantages" of being in the EU don't come anywhere near the money we've invested. Now once again, the EU saves Greece with a loan that will never get returned.. which in the end is tax money that we, the simple folk, are paying. I don't even know why we are still in the EU. "Also we are the Second largest EU-Contributor."
Almost all EU countries pay 18-25% of their salary, its simple math the higher the salary the higher the tax contribution. The bad thing for Greece is that even when they get out of the crysis they will be in debt for at least 10 years. Protesting is kinda pointless, they NEED a huge loan and if they dont get it it's gg for Greece; average salary will go down, unemployement, lower foreign investments. They already lost a lot tourists due to the bad image they have atm, I mean when the tourism agencies tells us to stay in the resorts and not wander in the cities you know its not safe.
Now for your simple math I did a quick WikiGoogle
Total tax on income -Part of the income from EUR 0 to EUR 17,878: 33.5 % of EUR 17,878 is EUR 5,989 -Part of the income from EUR 17,878 to EUR 32,127: 42 % of EUR 14,249 is EUR 5,984 -Part of the income from EUR 32,127 to EUR 54,776: 42% of EUR 22,649 is EUR 9,512 -Above that: 52 %.
The Average Income / Dutchman in 2009 was around 32,000 EUR/Year (That is ~40,000 Dollar). So this means he has to pay a 42% tax. Now that is quite a bit more then your 18-25%
I don't know much about this topic just some quick research. I think one of the reasons we stay in the EU is cause, our economy (dutch econemy) is highly depended on import and export of products or something. So we need friends like the EU to keep the money flowing.
Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_Netherlands
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Almost all EU countries pay 18-25% of their salary, its simple math the higher the salary the higher the tax contribution. The bad thing for Greece is that even when they get out of the crysis they will be in debt for at least 10 years. Protesting is kinda pointless, they NEED a huge loan and if they dont get it it's gg for Greece; average salary will go down, unemployement, lower foreign investments. They already lost a lot tourists due to the bad image they have atm, I mean when the tourism agencies tells us to stay in the resorts and not wander in the cities you know its not safe.
I really dislike people like, telling others what they do is pointless... Seriously man, can you accept that a country such as greece (see history) is taken down because of the way some midget playing with economy ? It's just "normal" and certainly not "pointless" that the people try to take control over the economic field. You are so intelligent that you only do what economist tell you to do? You really think that greece is down because of "too much swimming pool"?
They are right to protest; and they are not only protesting for the economic problem (for exemple, just take a look at the police in greece). There are many possibilities for greece to go out of this mess, not just one way giving by all those idiot european governments (who are, by the way, in the same shit as greece).
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There is only one way out for them right now, unless they want embargo (that's how the IMF plays). So protesting is kinda useless, it won't contribute to anything. The only smart thing for them to do would be to sit down and think of how to modernize and bolster their industry and pay off the debt in minimum amount of time, because currently they're waaaay behind EU in terms of overall development.
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On May 21 2010 22:48 L0n3W0olf wrote: There is only one way out for them right now, unless they want embargo (that's how the IMF plays). So protesting is kinda useless, it won't contribute to anything. The only smart thing for them to do would be to sit down and think of how to modernize and bolster their industry and pay off the debt in minimum amount of time, because currently they're waaaay behind EU in terms of overall development. You are wrong and narrowminded. Resorbing debt with inflation ? Europe says no(without any democratic legitimation), cauz you know the rich also loose money that way ;( Different loan ? LoLmao at country like germany & mine (/spit) who are trying to make money on a country that is falling appart.
modernize and bolster their industry and pay off the debt in minimum amount of time Define "modernize" and "bolster" Also define which type of "industry" could actually help greece in the global economy today ?
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On May 21 2010 21:06 Happy.fairytail wrote: US banks are fine ... due to recent regulation, our banks were forced to accumulate a pretty sizeable amount of reserve capital. European banks on the other hand... who the heck knows what's on their balance sheets, what's actually good or bad loans.
My feel is that yeah everyone's gonna get whacked as everyone's just running for the doors, but when risk starts coming back into the markets, commodity driven economies like Canada, Australia and South America will outperform; so will emerging economies like India and China. Europe will lag significantly; US will be mediocre.
i think you should split europe into solid countries like germany, france, benelux, poland and scandinavia and on the other side the rest of europe.
what we need in my opinion is just a union of the strong countries. you can only be as strong as your worst mate, how should europe be competing with the likes of china if there are countries like greece, spain, italy and so on that the solid countries have to pay for?
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This is just what happens when you try to use one single currency for totally different economies. The currency of the country/region used to be a reflection of their economy. By "forcing" weaker economies into a group of countries with strong economies (and thus a stronger currency) the weaker economies will be behind indefinately untill they get their economie up to the same level of those in the original EU. What happens now though is the reverse, the weak econs are taking down the "stronger" econs. And then consider that at this very moment the EU is considering to get 2 more weak econ countries into the EU.
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Ugh -.-
NEW YORK – The Dow Jones industrials plunged below 10,000 Tuesday after traders dumped stocks on expectations that the world economy will weaken in the coming months.
Still, uncertainty over the impact that Europe's debt problems could have on the rest of the world in the coming months remains the biggest driver of investor pessimism, said Jonathan Corpina, president of Meridian Equity Partners. The largest concern is that painful austerity measures that European governments are being forced to take could lead to a prolonged economic slump in the region and cause another global recession. And investors fear that even those measures won't contain the crisis, Corpina said.
"It seems like the Europeans are playing 'tag, you're it ' — first it was Greece and now it's maybe Spain or Portugal," said Corpina, a New York Stock Exchange floor trader. "We know someone else is next. The problem is that it seems like every plan in place isn't going to satisfy the needs."
Source
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In response to the bankers and governments’ global rape, pillaging and plundering of people’s assets and freedoms, we are starting a series of essays that we call “The Liberation Essays” in an attempt to educate the masses about the true nature of the global financial system. We will continue to write our essays until we feel we have achieved our goal of education and eventually liberation from the racketeering firms that call themselves Wall Street and Central Banks.
In honor, courage and liberty,
Solon, Lindbergh, and Don Killimunati
Source Might be interesting for those who think its an "EU or greek problem" and everything will be fine again someday.
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On May 26 2010 23:20 nard wrote:Show nested quote + In response to the bankers and governments’ global rape, pillaging and plundering of people’s assets and freedoms, we are starting a series of essays that we call “The Liberation Essays” in an attempt to educate the masses about the true nature of the global financial system. We will continue to write our essays until we feel we have achieved our goal of education and eventually liberation from the racketeering firms that call themselves Wall Street and Central Banks.
In honor, courage and liberty,
Solon, Lindbergh, and Don Killimunati
Source Might be interesting for those who think its an "EU or greek problem" and everything will be fine again someday. I can't decide whether these guys are communists or anarchists. I start getting nervous whenever I hear some soapbox preacher talking in Marxist terms about the "masses" and the "global rape and pillaging" of people by banks. In the same breath, these guys advocate the abolition of the income tax and attack the austerity measures in Greece. Talk about a "wtf."
Nevertheless, I find it amusing that they have Wells Fargo (one of the major American banks) as an advertiser.
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I am mostly agree with the essay in that link.
The actual monetary system is artificially sustented, and it will break eventually, at global level. I hope it does soon, and I work for that everyday.
We must stop being naive, we have owners, YOU HAVE owners, they own you, and they come for your money. They alredy have your work, your needs, and of course, your credit cards.
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On May 27 2010 00:11 coltrane wrote: The actual monetary system is artificially sustented, and it will break eventually, at global level. I hope it does soon, and I work for that everyday.
Just out of curiosity, why do you want the global finance system to collapse and what do you mean by "I work for that everyday"
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I want this system to collapse as well, it makes little sense save for a few bankers who profit from it. Money has always represented a resource, it's the abstraction of any kind of resource, be it material or work time. It was usually linked to metals, like gold, silver or bronze, which are resources by themselves. No problems with flasification, no worries about a financial system collapsing.
Our current system is based on paper-money connected to debt.. with an interest rate that makes no sense, because it's just paper money. So it's more fragile and more costly than the old one. We should just go back to what money really means, and stop this nonsense. Or get rid of money altogehter, current technology would allow it.
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On May :31 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Ugh -.- Show nested quote + NEW YORK – The Dow Jones industrials plunged below 10,000 Tuesday after traders dumped stocks on expectations that the world economy will weaken in the coming months.
Show nested quote + Still, uncertainty over the impact that Europe's debt problems could have on the rest of the world in the coming months remains the biggest driver of investor pessimism, said Jonathan Corpina, president of Meridian Equity Partners. The largest concern is that painful austerity measures that European governments are being forced to take could lead to a prolonged economic slump in the region and cause another global recession. And investors fear that even those measures won't contain the crisis, Corpina said.
"It seems like the Europeans are playing 'tag, you're it ' — first it was Greece and now it's maybe Spain or Portugal," said Corpina, a New York Stock Exchange floor trader. "We know someone else is next. The problem is that it seems like every plan in place isn't going to satisfy the needs."
Source
/totally not biased opinion Portugal is not going down. Heck, even the portuguese ministry of treasury opened this morning's wall street. With the unnenployment growing in Spain (now at %25) and people in Greece throwing molotov cocktails into banks I don't think you can put Portugal in the same boat. totally not biased opinion/
But srsl, I don't think Spain or Portugal are going down. What pisses me off the most is that bad bank administration is literally fucking the system. Banks going bankrupt because of curruption and bad management and the people pay in taxes the shit job they did. I know a guy that lost all the money he had in the bank about a year ago and he yet to see any of it. Srsl...
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On May 27 2010 07:47 Ganondorf wrote: Our current system is based on paper-money connected to debt.. with an interest rate that makes no sense, because it's just paper money. So it's more fragile and more costly than the old one. We should just go back to what money really means, and stop this nonsense. Or get rid of money altogehter, current technology would allow it.
#
Our monetary system works only because a big part of the population doesn't really know it. In my whole school career i never got taught where money comes from and what it means. I found an easy way to explain it to unknowing friends with this video:
Money as Dept + Show Spoiler +http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2550156453790090544
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On May 26 2010 23:46 xDaunt wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I can't decide whether these guys are communists or anarchists. I start getting nervous whenever I hear some soapbox preacher talking in Marxist terms about the "masses" and the "global rape and pillaging" of people by banks. In the same breath, these guys advocate the abolition of the income tax and attack the austerity measures in Greece. Talk about a "wtf."
Nevertheless, I find it amusing that they have Wells Fargo (one of the major American banks) as an advertiser.
i gotta admit, I'm kinda susceptible to leftist propaganda.. but if you ignore the extremist statements you come across stuff you can't find on the big media. Take a look on the main page of the blog from time to time, graphs won't hurt.
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alot of european complaints are that the english language media (usa and uk) are making the situation seem worse than it really is because they would both like to see the euro fall.
so its best to just not pay attention to the whole thing since its impossible to get accurate information. or learn french/german
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The Euro is the trading currency of the largest Trade union in the world. They spent years setting up the EU and its still the largest economy in the world (yes its bigger than NA). I think that hell would have to freeze over for the Euro to die and all the countrys revert back to old currency (which would never happen, if anything they would create a new currency)
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NEW YORK (AP) -- Stocks are extending their slide after the Labor Department said hiring remains weak and Hungary became the latest European country to report its economy is in crisis.
Meanwhile, a spokesman for Hungary's prime minister described the country's economy as being in a "grave" situation. That is pushing the euro lower.
Source
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You know its bad when Iran dumps its multi-billion euro reserve in favor of US dollars....
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