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On May 13 2010 07:30 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 05:42 nothingbutzerg wrote:On May 13 2010 05:23 AmstAff wrote:On May 13 2010 04:28 nothingbutzerg wrote:On May 13 2010 04:01 AmstAff wrote:On May 13 2010 03:35 nothingbutzerg wrote:On May 12 2010 04:37 oN_Silva wrote:
yeah greece is just fail. first they lie so much to the european nations to belong to them (probably to get help in their problems with turkey and the xtra money) then they are wasting it like they used to. now crying for help aah please Germany you have to help us... we just lived soo good thx to ur money now we dont have any anymore... n33d more plx or eu dies
ofc continuing buying weapons to defend their retarded zyphern island vs turkey.
np we ll help u greecs anytime.
(iam german, german pov) what on earth are you talking about?Do you have anything to contribute to this discussion? Because your childish analysis sucks! He is right, even if its maybe in the wrong topic. Greeks work only until the age of 55 in Germany we work until 67, you are wasting money that you don't have and want more and the funny thing is you boycott the German industry, because we want proofs that you don't waste the money again and that you are able to solve the problems after 1 time help. imo they should let die Greece. This Horror should end fast, its better than pumping tons of money into a dead Country just to slow his dead and push it some months or years away. Germany is dead his self. We even don't have the money to repair our streets, but its okay lets give our last money to the Greeks. For your information Greek people work until 65-67.Pensions given at 55 are to people with specific problems and some women but they receive a small amount of pension.If you don't know about how things work in a country i suggest you ask first. Greek people boycott german industry?????omg what are you talking about?50% of the cars driven are German,the main constructor of Greece's national roads is owned by Germans,The biggest airport of Athens was build and is in control of German company.Greece is buying German weapons and Panzers and submarines.I could go on with the list but there is no reason. All you do with your narrow-mind thinking is that Greek people are wasting your (????) money?Well FIY Greece should not have been allowed to enter the EMU(Most Europeans knew that it is a corrupted shitty country) but who wanted of course to take advantage of smaller countries since they had the the strongest currency?Germany and France of course! You are oversimplifying things to "Bad lazy mediterraneans,we work all day and they take our money,take our jobs and marry our women" Furthermore Greece took a loan which its biggest part comes from the IMf(which most people here is opppsed to so that means that they don't want your money) so your money,jobs and women are safe.You miss the point that the whole world is fucked up and and you blame Greece for that.What is Germany's or United states' debt do you have a clue?Why these countries don't suffer a financial terrorism? http://www.welt.de/die-welt/vermischtes/article6583288/Griechischer-Verband-ruft-zum-Boykott-deutscher-Waren-auf.htmlits some German article but all in all they say is a Greek organization is calling for boycott of German articles. I don't care German banks cause all they did is stealing money of German citizens and now they do the same again. They pump money into a poor Country (that they never will get back) and then they buy every shit that has some value for some bucks and finally they want money of German citizens to "safe" them (make even more profit). What makes me angry is that Greece wants GERMAN money but at the same time their citizens want to boycott our German industry. so there is one article or someone wrote a piece of shit and that defines the whole situation.Great insight! German banks my friend are giving Greece money so that they will have later on under their hands(and the corporations and funds they represent) the whole natural resources and everything productive comes out of it.It's a national sell-out to anyone who offers!You are missing the big picture! edit:how do you know it is GERMAN money.Didn't you notice that a huge part of "GERMAN money" comes from Greece?Why do you think Siemens or Daimler have given money to politicians and political parties?To get the job therefore to get the money.In conclusion EU money given to Greece was given back to you  Relax he is just repeating what the tabloid media is spoon feeding the German public. I think it is very obvious that this whole situation is incredibly frustrating for the common citizen in each country. No need to get personal or be at each others throats in an online forum. Or anywhere for that matter.
I am not getting it personal in any way, i am just frustrated some people won't go beyond some point of thinking (sometimes including myself,ain't no saint).Won't be staying awake for someone is wrong on the internet ,but i think this is a really serious topic (and prove me wrong there will be more to come for all of us) to be taken in one-liners or mediocre analysis. cheers 
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It would have been better for Greece and for the rest of Europe if they just let them default so the issues can be resolved. Instead of creating moral hazard which may lead to other countries (Portugal, Spain, Ireland) to be just as wreckless with unsustainable lifestyles.
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On May 14 2010 00:17 Undisputed- wrote:
It would have been better for Greece and for the rest of Europe if they just let them default so the issues can be resolved. Instead of creating moral hazard which may lead to other countries (Portugal, Spain, Ireland) to be just as wreckless with unsustainable lifestyles.
Yeah, except for the fact that that could lead to the collapse of the whole currency and would seriously damage financial markets across the world (the speculation alone was sending stocks down)
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Nanny State is unsustainable. GG.
I doubt that Greece will cut spending by enough to cover the deficit and pay back the loans. It's a similar case to the "global warming" and "earmarks" phenomena, to actually make a difference you need to cut massive amounts. For example, to cut enough CO2 to "stop global warming," we'd have to do much more than these cutesy little tricks like alternative energy, and just start shutting down factories. In order to get CO2 down to a manageable level, we would have to cut 20% of world GDP (source:the economist). Similarly, Greece would have to cut a massive percentage of their budget, which they simply are not going to do. I see this issue only getting worse when Greece has to repay these loans.
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On May 14 2010 00:28 Try wrote:
Nanny State is unsustainable. GG.
I doubt that Greece will cut spending by enough to cover the deficit and pay back the loans. It's a similar case to the "global warming" and "earmarks" phenomena, to actually make a difference you need to cut massive amounts. For example, to cut enough CO2 to "stop global warming," we'd have to do much more than these cutesy little tricks like alternative energy, and just start shutting down factories. In order to get CO2 down to a manageable level, we would have to cut 20% of world GDP (source:the economist). Similarly, Greece would have to cut a massive percentage of their budget, which they simply are not going to do. I see this issue only getting worse when Greece has to repay these loans.
Well Greece is already being bailed out so it's gonna be tough times for a while but they aren't totally fucked.
On the global warming thing you're correct, you'd have to shut down pretty much all industry/shipping/air traffic to make a real dent in the emissions...
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On May 14 2010 00:26 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 00:17 Undisputed- wrote:
It would have been better for Greece and for the rest of Europe if they just let them default so the issues can be resolved. Instead of creating moral hazard which may lead to other countries (Portugal, Spain, Ireland) to be just as wreckless with unsustainable lifestyles. Yeah, except for the fact that that could lead to the collapse of the whole currency and would seriously damage financial markets across the world (the speculation alone was sending stocks down)
Nope. Greece is going to collapse eventually this bailout just holds it off a little bit longer and flips the tax payers of other countries with the bill. They will be back for more bailouts and so will other struggling countries living above their means. Allowing them to default only hurts the creditors who bet on Greece to get bailed out (they were right!).
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On May 14 2010 00:41 Undisputed- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 00:26 jello_biafra wrote:On May 14 2010 00:17 Undisputed- wrote:
It would have been better for Greece and for the rest of Europe if they just let them default so the issues can be resolved. Instead of creating moral hazard which may lead to other countries (Portugal, Spain, Ireland) to be just as wreckless with unsustainable lifestyles. Yeah, except for the fact that that could lead to the collapse of the whole currency and would seriously damage financial markets across the world (the speculation alone was sending stocks down) Nope. Greece is going to collapse eventually this bailout just holds it off a little bit longer and flips the tax payers of other countries with the bill. They will be back for more bailouts and so will other struggling countries living above their means. Allowing them to default only hurts the creditors who bet on Greece to get bailed out (they were right!).
Yep. We're getting the opportunity to see what a multi-trillion dollar ponzi scheme looks like right now.
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On May 14 2010 00:41 Undisputed- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 00:26 jello_biafra wrote:On May 14 2010 00:17 Undisputed- wrote:
It would have been better for Greece and for the rest of Europe if they just let them default so the issues can be resolved. Instead of creating moral hazard which may lead to other countries (Portugal, Spain, Ireland) to be just as wreckless with unsustainable lifestyles. Yeah, except for the fact that that could lead to the collapse of the whole currency and would seriously damage financial markets across the world (the speculation alone was sending stocks down) Nope. Greece is going to collapse eventually this bailout just holds it off a little bit longer and flips the tax payers of other countries with the bill. They will be back for more bailouts and so will other struggling countries living above their means. Allowing them to default only hurts the creditors who bet on Greece to get bailed out (they were right!).
We're talking about a trillion dollar rescue package with strict conditions that they must cut the deficit and basically stop being completely irresponsible, it's not going to collapse.
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On May 14 2010 00:50 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 00:41 Undisputed- wrote:On May 14 2010 00:26 jello_biafra wrote:On May 14 2010 00:17 Undisputed- wrote:
It would have been better for Greece and for the rest of Europe if they just let them default so the issues can be resolved. Instead of creating moral hazard which may lead to other countries (Portugal, Spain, Ireland) to be just as wreckless with unsustainable lifestyles. Yeah, except for the fact that that could lead to the collapse of the whole currency and would seriously damage financial markets across the world (the speculation alone was sending stocks down) Nope. Greece is going to collapse eventually this bailout just holds it off a little bit longer and flips the tax payers of other countries with the bill. They will be back for more bailouts and so will other struggling countries living above their means. Allowing them to default only hurts the creditors who bet on Greece to get bailed out (they were right!). We're talking about a trillion dollar rescue package with strict conditions that they must cut the deficit and basically stop being completely irresponsible, it's not going to collapse.
There's enough money in the fund to prevent Greece from collapsing in the short term. However, when the rest of the PIGS catch up to where Greece is (Portugal, Ireland, and Spain), then there will be a collapse.
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On May 12 2010 01:26 Krikkitone wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2010 21:58 Not_A_Notion wrote:On May 11 2010 21:40 WAAA wrote:On May 11 2010 20:52 KwarK wrote:On April 29 2010 09:02 tru_power22 wrote:On March 01 2010 15 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 01 2010 15 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:27 n.DieJokes wrote:
I honestly have nothing to add or confirm or deny. I almost wish we would go back to the gold standard so at least I would have some idea what's going on.
Yeah, at least that system made sense. I can't tell if this is a joke post or if you're seriously suggesting the logical means of barter is by using a useless metal of changing value as an intermediary. Can't tell if you are serious either, after reading again Ima go with no.. but anyway gold isnt useless.. it has very important qualitys and is used in many ways (electronics, glass, jewlery etc). Theres a reason why it is so valuable (hint: not because its shiny). Given gold's strong negative correlation with the Dollar (relative to other metals) and it's tendency to increase in times of market turmoil (it has increase markedly in the last two years and is near all time highs), one would have to conclude that it is not golds usefulness that is driving its value but rather its history as the root of most western specie. Unless you can find a link between its fundamental usefulness and these market shifts. At any rate this would serve as a further argument for not having it as a monetary base as you would be diverting resources away from their best uses and into vaults. The advantage of gold is 1. It Doesn't have much fundamental usefulness that varies in value significantly (just like paper money) 2. It can't be easily produced (unlike paper money) #1 is what makes it a form of money rather than just a barter (ie gold is really only good for trading for something useful #2 is what makes it a (relatively) stable form of currency [it does get produced but no single group can really control how much gets produced... that depends on where gold mines happen to be]
1. I don't wish to be rude but I was responding to a post that suggested that gold was indeed very useful. So your counter argument kind of doesn't apply since it contradicts what I was arguing against.
2. Monetary discipline is indeed its prime virtue.
But then again what would stop a government coming off the gold standard whenever it wanted? This has been seen repeatedly in the US alone, civil war, WW1, mid-way through great depression and the breaking of Bretton Woods which was a quasi-gold standard system.
It's the ease with which one may break from the gold standard that undermines its credibility as a currency I'm afraid.
The only way you could make gold a truly reliable currency was by having it ingrained in the constitution making switches off it quite difficult, but in that case you could just have a constitutional limit on the monetary base for fiat currency that may be in issue and you would get a the same effect, for the most part.
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On May 14 2010 00:48 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 00:41 Undisputed- wrote:On May 14 2010 00:26 jello_biafra wrote:On May 14 2010 00:17 Undisputed- wrote:
It would have been better for Greece and for the rest of Europe if they just let them default so the issues can be resolved. Instead of creating moral hazard which may lead to other countries (Portugal, Spain, Ireland) to be just as wreckless with unsustainable lifestyles. Yeah, except for the fact that that could lead to the collapse of the whole currency and would seriously damage financial markets across the world (the speculation alone was sending stocks down) Nope. Greece is going to collapse eventually this bailout just holds it off a little bit longer and flips the tax payers of other countries with the bill. They will be back for more bailouts and so will other struggling countries living above their means. Allowing them to default only hurts the creditors who bet on Greece to get bailed out (they were right!). Yep. We're getting the opportunity to see what a multi-trillion dollar ponzi scheme looks like right now.
Sad thing is the United States is an even larger ponzi scheme lol.
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Wow there are a lot more informed people here than I'd expected. Who thought TL.net would know what bond markets and basis points were? I think the topic is getting away from what the average user would understand. Can we make a summary of what would be interesting and useful to the average user?
I don't know a whole lot but I'll start:
1) The euro dropping in value is not completely bad. The newfound risk will make people devalue securities worldwide but make Eurozone exports more attractive to other countries. Look at China as an example. If you in the Euro zone, all you care about is that your wages rise according the devaluation of the Euro.
2) If you are sensitive to a fall in the value of the Euro and have significant wealth, talk to a financial advisor about what you can do to protect yourself.
3) Value is a human construct, nobody knows for certain what will be "worth" what. Don't believe everything you hear in the news, most of it is opinion and sensationalism. The only real valuable things necessary for life is ramen and starcraft.
Edit: Greece is hearing: "You've not enough minerals." and asking for minerals from his partner to rebuild his nexus lol.
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I think people are freaking out a bit too much about deficits here.
Deficits happen in a mixed market economy, the issue is whether the deficit is cyclical or structural. Cyclical deficits are less problematic since there is the very reasonable prospect that an economic recovery will alleviate most of the problem.
A cursory look at the figures on Eurostat suggests that Greece certainly has a structural deficit.
It has run deficits every year since 2000.
Unfortunately it seems that Portugal also has a structural deficit, it too has run deficits every year since 2000, though of a slightly lesser magnitude.
The story appears slightly different with Ireland and Spain, both of whom are going through their worst recessions in living memory.
Ireland has (between 2000 and 2009) ran 3 deficit years (2002, 2008 and 2009).(and will most likely run 4 more)
Spain has run 6 deficit years, but to be fair almost always less than 1% of GDP before 2008 and 2009.
All of these countries have fallen off a cliff economically since 2008 with deficits ballooning for all countries, but then that's happened for literally ever other country in the western world.
However the ensuing panic has led people to start spamming "OMFG" at the sight of borrowing without the least regard for
1. the bigger picture of why these deficits are happening
2. The action taken by the relevant governments, nobody here has made any effort to differentiate between the PIGS nations in terms of their attempt to make cuts, raise taxes etc.
No doubt a sizeable portion of the rise in Ireland and Spains deficits is structural, but again one must look to the various policy responses.
Perhaps a little bit more work should be done on the idiosyncrasies of the nations in question before people start making sweeping generalisations.
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On May 14 2010 01:26 willeesmalls wrote:
Wow there are a lot more informed people here than I'd expected. Who thought TL.net would know what bond markets and basis points were? I think the topic is getting away from what the average user would understand. Can we make a summary of what would be interesting and useful to the average user?
The majority of TL.net's population are college students, and a good percentage of those are economics/mathematics/finance majors. So alot of TL'ers are familiar with this kind of stuff.
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Too bad that the PIGS countries will have to borrow those tons of euros at an interest which means they will either be paying it back for a looooong time or never pay it up at all. Either way its no surprise that greece was going bankrupt having over-payed government jobs, corruption and their retirement age set somewhere in the 50-ish.
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On May 14 2010 01:56 Not_A_Notion wrote:
I think people are freaking out a bit too much about deficits here.
Deficits happen in a mixed market economy, the issue is whether the deficit is cyclical or structural. Cyclical deficits are less problematic since there is the very reasonable prospect that an economic recovery will alleviate most of the problem.
A cursory look at the figures on Eurostat suggests that Greece certainly has a structural deficit.
It has run deficits every year since 2000.
Unfortunately it seems that Portugal also has a structural deficit, it too has run deficits every year since 2000, though of a slightly lesser magnitude.
The story appears slightly different with Ireland and Spain, both of whom are going through their worst recessions in living memory.
Ireland has (between 2000 and 2009) ran 3 deficit years (2002, 2008 and 2009).(and will most likely run 4 more)
Spain has run 6 deficit years, but to be fair almost always less than 1% of GDP before 2008 and 2009.
All of these countries have fallen off a cliff economically since 2008 with deficits ballooning for all countries, but then that's happened for literally ever other country in the western world.
However the ensuing panic has led people to start spamming "OMFG" at the sight of borrowing without the least regard for
1. the bigger picture of why these deficits are happening
2. The action taken by the relevant governments, nobody here has made any effort to differentiate between the PIGS nations in terms of their attempt to make cuts, raise taxes etc.
No doubt a sizeable portion of the rise in Ireland and Spains deficits is structural, but again one must look to the various policy responses.
Perhaps a little bit more work should be done on the idiosyncrasies of the nations in question before people start making sweeping generalisations.
The main problem is that in order for these countries to run deficits they must borrow money. When Eurozone said they were gonna bail out Greece, this sent a message to their creditors and other nations in the Eurozone. It's okay to keep running deficits, and its okay to recklessly loan because no matter what, you will get paid back and the countries won't have to default. Why should anybody act responsibly when they can get bailed out?
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On May 14 2010 15:43 Jenbu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 01:56 Not_A_Notion wrote:
I think people are freaking out a bit too much about deficits here.
Deficits happen in a mixed market economy, the issue is whether the deficit is cyclical or structural. Cyclical deficits are less problematic since there is the very reasonable prospect that an economic recovery will alleviate most of the problem.
A cursory look at the figures on Eurostat suggests that Greece certainly has a structural deficit.
It has run deficits every year since 2000.
Unfortunately it seems that Portugal also has a structural deficit, it too has run deficits every year since 2000, though of a slightly lesser magnitude.
The story appears slightly different with Ireland and Spain, both of whom are going through their worst recessions in living memory.
Ireland has (between 2000 and 2009) ran 3 deficit years (2002, 2008 and 2009).(and will most likely run 4 more)
Spain has run 6 deficit years, but to be fair almost always less than 1% of GDP before 2008 and 2009.
All of these countries have fallen off a cliff economically since 2008 with deficits ballooning for all countries, but then that's happened for literally ever other country in the western world.
However the ensuing panic has led people to start spamming "OMFG" at the sight of borrowing without the least regard for
1. the bigger picture of why these deficits are happening
2. The action taken by the relevant governments, nobody here has made any effort to differentiate between the PIGS nations in terms of their attempt to make cuts, raise taxes etc.
No doubt a sizeable portion of the rise in Ireland and Spains deficits is structural, but again one must look to the various policy responses.
Perhaps a little bit more work should be done on the idiosyncrasies of the nations in question before people start making sweeping generalisations. The main problem is that in order for these countries to run deficits they must borrow money. When Eurozone said they were gonna bail out Greece, this sent a message to their creditors and other nations in the Eurozone. It's okay to keep running deficits, and its okay to recklessly loan because no matter what, you will get paid back and the countries won't have to default. Why should anybody act responsibly when they can get bailed out?
Why should anybody act responsibly when they can get bailed out?
If one looks at Greece right now you have to ask, what government would deem that a desirable state of affairs?
General strikes, riots, people getting burned to death, this looks set to continue and all this happened post-bail-out. Not many governments would say, hmm yeah that's for us.
Of course this doesn't really address what I said, what I had said was that people (here) are failing to differentiate nations' policy responses to alleviate structural deficits which is disingenuous, at best, blanket statements are not helpful.
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The protesting greeks are being hypocrits aswell, i saw an economist on television that said that Greece has added a law a few years ago that required to pay taxes if you had a swimming pool.
300 people were paying those taxes and then came a day they just rented a helicopter to count the number of pools in Athens alone and came up with 17.000 swimming pools...
Not to mention the fact that people are paying their doctor (and obviously alot of other services) bills "under the counter" without paying taxes over those amounts because it's cheaper this way.
If you add this all up the people in Greece don't even want to be saved if it means it will cost them money, it makes me puke really to see them go on strike like that. Ofcourse not everyone has a pool or evades paying taxes otherwise but it's the general consensus there about how it's all done.
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In the end this happens because governments can't accept the fact that they can't solve everything, and sucumb to social pressure to try to do so by expending more, even though it's not sustainable in the long term.
General population expect and even believe government has to do stuff for them but don't want to pay for that(I'll rather not pay for that and government do less stuff but that's another story). At least it seems that Spain has actually acknowledged this and has commited (or already done, not sure) to cut public sectors salaries as well as some "social benefits", which even though is painful, is really necessary.
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On May 14 2010 20:00 reki- wrote:
The protesting greeks are being hypocrits aswell, i saw an economist on television that said that Greece has added a law a few years ago that required to pay taxes if you had a swimming pool.
300 people were paying those taxes and then came a day they just rented a helicopter to count the number of pools in Athens alone and came up with 17.000 swimming pools...
Not to mention the fact that people are paying their doctor (and obviously alot of other services) bills "under the counter" without paying taxes over those amounts because it's cheaper this way.
If you add this all up the people in Greece don't even want to be saved if it means it will cost them money, it makes me puke really to see them go on strike like that. Ofcourse not everyone has a pool or evades paying taxes otherwise but it's the general consensus there about how it's all done.
What is the lower monthly income in Netherlands?
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EPT
