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On February 03 2010 02:52 fox[tail] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2010 02:45 pioneer8 wrote:
In relation to Starcraft and E-sports, i wonder if any western pro's now or in the future boycott Chinese tournaments. It would send a strong message to the Chinese people and young people everywhere that the Communist party in China that has killed more people ever, than any government or entity in the history of the world, is unacceptable, as are the crimes against free speech, imprisonment, and forced labor of mostly peaceful people.
I know that most WC3 tournaments are now in China, and that is dissapointing, and i doubt any gamers to lose their livlihood, but it may be interesting as SC2 comes up with more international tournaments. I wouldn't compete there, not out of any disrespect for the Chinese people, but to send a message to the people. Something like this could actually do alot of good. WTF!!!!! 'has killed more people ever, than any government or entity in the history of the world' Ever heard of Genghis Khan... The Timurid Empire... The Qing dynasty
Probably triple all those 3 eras combined. Mao Ze Dong's era was over 40 million people killed.
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Dream:
I don't think it's retarded. It's to help the people realize that things could be alot better and freer. It's not to cause any conflict. If i were to do this, i would explain it to the other gamers and the public that it's not to disrespect Chinese people, but to bring awareness to the issue, which could actually do alot of good. Imagine if Grubby stopped playing in China. Sure alot of fans would close-mindedly hate him, but alot would also understand and appreciate it, shedding light on the issue to alot of people.
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The discussion I posted pretty much sums up the West conception about DL and Tibet and to what extent they are inconsistent with the reality in Tibet. Yes Tibet was much worse before China's invasion, yes Tibet needs China.
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(to fox)
sum it up please, stop copying and pasting shit it's dreadful to read I want your opinions I am talking to you not a news article
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How does Tibet need China? That is like saying the United States needed Great Britian before the revolution. If people aren't happy with the government, that's called oppression.
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their argument does not have to make sense, they got all our money
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On February 03 2010 02:45 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2010 02:39 seppolevne wrote:On February 03 2010 02:18 pioneer8 wrote:
Your disbelief in morals does not mean that they do not exist. Such things are self-evident.
These things are mainly based on empathy and sympathy, natural and healthy human emotions. A psychopath is someone incapable of empathy, and it is known as a real mental condition. The simplest of human emotions dont need to be explained.
The lack of sympathy for those suffering is the source of arrogance.
It didn't take me very long to explain...
And your belief in morals does not mean that they do... And to define something as healthy? According to who? Health is simply the average. The most common condition. Nothing other then that makes psychopaths unhealthy and you healthy, and it could easily be the other way around. It's true that things are relative, but you are taking things to too far an extreme. A healthy mind is a rational and functional mind. Health is clearly and accurately defined in a dictionary. It has nothing to do with an average.
Health is defined as such:
"The general condition of the body or mind with reference to soundness and vigor."
I wanted to see what they meant by "soundness", so here that is:
"free from injury, damage, defect, disease, etc.; in good condition; healthy"
Of which mental illness would fall under "defect". The only reason it's a defect is because it is a deviation from the norm. Someone has a birth defect if they are born with 3 arms, but if everyone had 3 arms, the baby born with 2 would be.
Or we could use the WHO definition:
"Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity."
"Well-being"? According to who?(lol) Since no one has been named supreme definer of a state of well-being, we define it by what should normally happen. The average. It is healthy to have two arms and two legs and 10 fingers and 10 toes because most everyone else has that many. It's healthy to have a sex drive because most people do. Losing your high-frequency hearing as you age is certainly not a good thing, but is considered healthy because heck, it happens to everybody. Health is simply the average parameters of a body. Sure, some things such as blood pressure can be considered "healthy" or "unhealthy" as the chance of death decreases/increases at different levels, but to consider "healthy" as clearly defined is false.
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On February 03 2010 02:59 Dracid wrote:
Pioneer8:
...You really buy into what the western media feeds you don't you?
Look, there are problems with China, but if you'd bother to learn even the slightest bit about what life is like in China, you'd realize that the western depiction of China is severely flawed and biased. The Chinese government does not exist solely to make its people miserable, and it'd be really nice if people understood that once in a while.
Not to mention that a pro gamer's boycott would seriously accomplish nothing. A significant amount of athletes boycotting the Beijing Olympics might have gotten a message across, but not pro gamers.
I'm pretty sure he's just trolling. That or choosing to be deliberately misinformed considering some of his posts and links.
On February 03 2010 03:03 travis wrote:
(to fox)
sum it up please, stop copying and pasting shit it's dreadful to read I want your opinions I am talking to you not a news article
What in the world? Just because you've been spouting opinions somehow invalidates someone linking facts?? Some of your posts show you literally have NO IDEA what you're speaking of (which I suppose is ok since it's your /opinion/)
I mean let's just look at a random statement by you to demonstrate.
On February 03 2010 02:25 travis wrote:
The DL has nothing to do with any sort of violent or harmful protest. Anyone who thinks otherwise obviously does not understand what the DL is.
I suppose you're not aware of the fact that the DL in exile was the one who organized a revolt in the province that triggered the initial backlash from Chinese troops?
Or ..
On February 03 2010 02:51 travis wrote:
How can you say definitively that Tibet is better off with China? Was there mass starvation or sickness in Tibet that I was unaware of before China decided to invade?
^This? Considering Tibet was operating in a feudal system where slavery was allowed? Or the fact that the area alone has little natural resources or trade routes?
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On February 03 2010 03:04 pioneer8 wrote:
How does Tibet need China? That is like saying the United States needed Great Britian before the revolution. If people aren't happy with the government, that's called oppression.
Well Britain built a decent enough country for it to become independent, Tibet is fucked and relies on Chinese help, that's the difference.
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On February 02 2010 21:27 exeexe wrote:
China could kill Dalai Lama if they wanted to, as to a countermessure that goverment leaders should not meet with Dalai - or put him in a prison, isolate him.
How would the world react to that? They would be passive.
The Americans must accept that in China they dont have democratic leadership and americans should be more careful when they deal with foreign affairs. Not to mention China owns all the US $$$ and they could just destroy the american eco ez
ez
ez
ez
can you imagine if the US decides to ban doing business with china and move their import market to the rest of southeast asia? american si the biggest market, china needs us more than we need them.
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On February 03 2010 03:04 pioneer8 wrote:
How does Tibet need China? That is like saying the United States needed Great Britian before the revolution. If people aren't happy with the government, that's called oppression.
I'm not happy with my government, or any government in the world actually. We must be all oppressed?
Tibet needs China because of its geographical location. It is pretty much the most isolated place in the world. China gives Tibet schools, roads, infrastructures, cities, food, pretty much everything you can imagine. The population is now both tibetan and han, but I guess at this rate even the tibetan people does not want independence. They had much worse under DL's rule in the past.
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On February 03 2010 03:03 travis wrote:
(to fox)
sum it up please, stop copying and pasting shit it's dreadful to read I want your opinions I am talking to you not a news article
Right you are:
In short China has made huge plans to 'force' Tibet into civilization by 2020, they will have all the rest of China has, and more. There will be prosperity and economic and academic security. All Tibet has to do is stick with the plan
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On February 03 2010 03:02 iloahz wrote:
The discussion I posted pretty much sums up the West conception about DL and Tibet and to what extent they are inconsistent with the reality in Tibet. Yes Tibet was much worse before China's invasion, yes Tibet needs China.
ok, but where is the evidence that they were worse off?
I think the argument that they are better off centers around a certain type of view of the world. The view that progress comes in the form of better technology, better infastructure, stronger military, stronger economy, etc.
I think there is definitely a tradeoff.
Also, the article you linked to mentions some sort of history of slavery/serfdom in tibet, which china is supposed to have put a stop to. This does indeed sound like a good thing, but I have heard nothing about problems with slavery in tibet, and certainly not within the buddhist community there. I have no doubts Tibet was "backwards" in many ways, but Tibet also was ahead of everywhere else in many ways.... I think it's very complicated.
I think it's hearsay, I am sure there is plenty of made up or exaggerated shit on both sides, and frankly I don't believe any of that crap without a ton of evidence.
I don't think China's invasion is all negative, nor all positive.... but I also don't think I know how much there is of either.
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Gamers boycotting China would send a message to young people just as did the boycott of the Olympics. There are a ton of gamers in China and alot of tournaments, mostly Wc3 afaik, and their numbers grow expodentially. Did you see VODs of the WCG? I used the example of Grubby, a white Dutchman, well loved in China with many many fans. If he, for example, were to do this, many of his fans would definately be effected by it, and as i said, a lot will close-mindedly hate him, but the good has been done, and maybe one day play there again when things change there.
You have to understand, if i were writing this post in China, i would be arrested and thrown in jail. Possibly even tortured under suspicion of conspiracy. That is the serioussness of this.
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On February 03 2010 03:08 seppolevne wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2010 02:45 travis wrote:On February 03 2010 02:39 seppolevne wrote:On February 03 2010 02:18 pioneer8 wrote:
Your disbelief in morals does not mean that they do not exist. Such things are self-evident.
These things are mainly based on empathy and sympathy, natural and healthy human emotions. A psychopath is someone incapable of empathy, and it is known as a real mental condition. The simplest of human emotions dont need to be explained.
The lack of sympathy for those suffering is the source of arrogance.
It didn't take me very long to explain...
And your belief in morals does not mean that they do... And to define something as healthy? According to who? Health is simply the average. The most common condition. Nothing other then that makes psychopaths unhealthy and you healthy, and it could easily be the other way around. It's true that things are relative, but you are taking things to too far an extreme. A healthy mind is a rational and functional mind. Health is clearly and accurately defined in a dictionary. It has nothing to do with an average. Health is defined as such: "The general condition of the body or mind with reference to soundness and vigor." I wanted to see what they meant by "soundness", so here that is: "free from injury, damage, defect, disease, etc.; in good condition; healthy" Of which mental illness would fall under "defect". The only reason it's a defect is because it is a deviation from the norm. Someone has a birth defect if they are born with 3 arms, but if everyone had 3 arms, the baby born with 2 would be. Or we could use the WHO definition: "Health is a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity." "Well-being"? According to who?(lol) Since no one has been named supreme definer of a state of well-being, we define it by what should normally happen. The average. It is healthy to have two arms and two legs and 10 fingers and 10 toes because most everyone else has that many. It's healthy to have a sex drive because most people do. Losing your high-frequency hearing as you age is certainly not a good thing, but is considered healthy because heck, it happens to everybody. Health is simply the average parameters of a body. Sure, some things such as blood pressure can be considered "healthy" or "unhealthy" as the chance of death decreases/increases at different levels, but to consider "healthy" as clearly defined is false.
Normal is not the same as average. But if that's what you meant, then I agree.
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On February 03 2010 03:19 pioneer8 wrote:
Gamers boycotting China would send a message to young people just as did the boycott of the Olympics. There are a ton of gamers in China and alot of tournaments, mostly Wc3 afaik, and there numbers grow expodentially. Did you see VODs of the WCG? I used the example of Grubby, a white Dutchman, well loved in China with many many fans. If he, for example, were to do this, many of his fans would definately be effected by it, and as i said, a lot will close-mindedly hate him, but the good has been done, and maybe one day play there again when things change there.
You have to understand, if i were writing this post in China, i would be arrested and thrown in jail. Possibly even tortured under suspicion of conspiracy. That is the serioussness of this.
Actually if you made this post in China, you'd be made fun of, laughed at, mocked and flamed in so many ways. Nothing will happen to you politically because in China no one will give a shit about what you are saying since you are not important.
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Freer... now that's a strange sentiment. Explain how your life is necessarily more free from somebody who's Chinese, without making use of American rights which you don't actually take advantage of.
As for bringing awareness to the issue(which is vague as well), do you mean Chinese reactions or western? In terms of western reactions, nothing would really change, since most people already know the western half of the story, not to mention you're overestimating Grubby's fanbase.
As for Chinese reactions, you're simply wrong. People would hate him, yes, but not close-mindedly, and very, very, few would appreciate the gesture. The thing is, the Chinese for the most part know to take what the government tells them with a grain of salt. What the Chinese also realize is that their improved living standards (allowing them to play computer games instead of tilling fields, for instance) is owed largely in part to efforts by the government, meaning a good many people support the government despite its flaws. Finally, many Chinese are aware of how China is portrayed by western media, and see it as highly unjust. A boycott of Chinese tournaments for the reasons given would be reinforcing the notion that the western media is correct in its sentiments, and further proof that the west does not understand China.
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On February 03 2010 02:56 iloahz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2010 02:51 travis wrote:On February 03 2010 02:47 fox[tail] wrote:On February 03 2010 02:34 igotmyown wrote:On February 03 2010 00:26 WheelOfTime wrote:
God I fucking hate ignorant foreigners discussing about Tibet.
As someone who lived in China for years and have traveled to Tibet twice, let me say this:
Tibet is FUCKED without China, structurally and economically. Period.
Stop all this "free Tibet" bullshit and China bashing. Get to know the facts and opinions from the other perspective, aka none of the major English news sites, and you'll think much differently. How many Tibetans have you discussed this with? Assuming you're not ethnically Chinese and that you didn't speak to them in Chinese. What someone believes is good for them at what in reality is good for them are two different things, you can't expect that talking with a separatist will get you a non-biased view. I'm not saying the Chinese way is better but in the end it's a problem that China and the exiled government of Tibet have to work out on their own. Me and you won't be living in Tibet, I will certainly never go to Tibet, and Tibet is better off with China. How can you say definitively that Tibet is better off with China? Was there mass starvation or sickness in Tibet that I was unaware of before China decided to invade? http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic.pbs?t=68073&postdays=0&postorder=asc&topic_view=&start=0&sid=88252ea448cc9ea54cd87de633c21bbe
Are you familiar with the contexts of his arguments? Or do you read directly into what he is saying? There's a lot left unsaid on both sides, largely because audiences aren't that interested in learning the specifics. A lot of the poster in that url's arguments are based on assuming Tibet will continue to be occupied, do Tibetans want development? It's a bait and switch from a theoretical occupation vs independence to a realistic resignation vs resistance argument.
If anyone is more interested in a point of view of someone who's experienced first hand the vices of the Tibetan and Chinese governments, check out Tashi Tsering's autobiography, The Struggle for Modern Tibet
+ Show Spoiler +
This captivating autobiography by a Tibetan educator and former political prisoner is full of twists and turns. Born in 1929 in a Tibetan village, Tsering developed a strong dislike of his country's theocratic ruling elite. As a 13-year-old member of the Dalai Lama's personal dance troupe, he was frequently whipped or beaten by teachers for minor infractions. A heterosexual, he escaped by becoming a drombo, or homosexual passive partner and sex-toy, for a well-connected monk. After studying at the University of Washington, he returned to Chinese-occupied Tibet in 1964, convinced that Tibet could become a modernized society based on socialist, egalitarian principles only through cooperation with the Chinese. Denounced as a "counterrevolutionary" during Mao's Cultural Revolution, he was arrested in 1967 and spent six years in prison or doing forced labor in China. Officially exonerated in 1978, Tsering became a professor of English at Tibet University in Lhasa. He now raises funds to build schools in Tibet's villages, emphasizing Tibetan language and culture. Written with Goldstein, head of Case Western Reserve's anthropology department, and Siebenschuh, a Case English professor, this unusual autobiography valiantly suggests a middle way between authoritarian Chinese rule and a return to Tibet's old order.
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On February 03 2010 03:08 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2010 03:03 travis wrote:
(to fox)
sum it up please, stop copying and pasting shit it's dreadful to read I want your opinions I am talking to you not a news article What in the world? Just because you've been spouting opinions somehow invalidates someone linking facts?? Some of your posts show you literally have NO IDEA what you're speaking of (which I suppose is ok since it's your /opinion/) I mean let's just look at a random statement by you to demonstrate. Show nested quote +On February 03 2010 02:25 travis wrote:
The DL has nothing to do with any sort of violent or harmful protest. Anyone who thinks otherwise obviously does not understand what the DL is. I suppose you're not aware of the fact that the DL in exile was the one who organized a revolt in the province that triggered the initial backlash from Chinese troops?
You don't have any idea what you are talking about. Show me any substantial evidence that the DL promoted violence.
Or ..
Show nested quote +On February 03 2010 02:51 travis wrote:
How can you say definitively that Tibet is better off with China? Was there mass starvation or sickness in Tibet that I was unaware of before China decided to invade? ^This? Considering Tibet was operating in a feudal system where slavery was allowed? Or the fact that the area alone has little natural resources or trade routes?
You're just repeating things you have read. Show me examples of the horrors that went on in Tibet before China arrived. You're equating wellbeing to "socio-economic development", and the 2 are not the same.
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Mao's China is quite a ways different than the current. You'd be hard pressed to find many who still hold onto the God Mao status of the old.
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On February 03 2010 03:14 fox[tail] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2010 03:03 travis wrote:
(to fox)
sum it up please, stop copying and pasting shit it's dreadful to read I want your opinions I am talking to you not a news article Right you are: In short China has made huge plans to 'force' Tibet into civilization by 2020, they will have all the rest of China has, and more. There will be prosperity and economic and academic security. All Tibet has to do is stick with the plan
Well, my opinion is that it is a good thing, but the way it's gone down is very bad. And I have no doubt that is the fault of both sides(but mostly the aggressor). The buddhist community in tibet was basically annihilated.
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EPT
