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On February 03 2010 03:18 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2010 03:02 iloahz wrote:
The discussion I posted pretty much sums up the West conception about DL and Tibet and to what extent they are inconsistent with the reality in Tibet. Yes Tibet was much worse before China's invasion, yes Tibet needs China. ok, but where is the evidence that they were worse off? I think the argument that they are better off centers around a certain type of view of the world. The view that progress comes in the form of better technology, better infastructure, stronger military, stronger economy, etc. I think there is definitely a tradeoff. Also, the article you linked to mentions some sort of history of slavery/serfdom in tibet, which china is supposed to have put a stop to. This does indeed sound like a good thing, but I have heard nothing about problems with slavery in Tibet, and certainly not within the buddhist community there. I have no doubts Tibet was "backwards" in many ways, but Tibet also was ahead of everywhere else in many ways.... I think it's very complicated. I think it's hearsay, I am sure there is plenty of made up or exaggerated shit on both sides, and frankly I don't believe any of that crap without a ton of evidence. I don't think China's invasion is all negative, nor all positive.... but I also don't think I know how much there is of either.
Well if you gave the Native Americans in the US independence, I seriously doubt they would go back to living in tee pee's or whatever. I just know that Tibet would not be a democracy, it would be a theocracy, and that they technologically speaking would go back to the Dark Ages, the people would topple the DL within a short period
(OK, I think that if you gave the Aborigines in Australia freedom or gave it to some African tribes they would go back to living in the bush, but then again don't have a country or nation)
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On February 03 2010 03:21 Dracid wrote:
Freer... now that's a strange sentiment. Explain how your life is necessarily more free from somebody who's Chinese, without making use of American rights which you don't actually take advantage of.
As for bringing awareness to the issue(which is vague as well), do you mean Chinese reactions or western? In terms of western reactions, nothing would really change, since most people already know the western half of the story, not to mention you're overestimating Grubby's fanbase.
As for Chinese reactions, you're simply wrong. People would hate him, yes, but not close-mindedly, and very, very, few would appreciate the gesture. The thing is, the Chinese for the most part know to take what the government tells them with a grain of salt. What the Chinese also realize is that their improved living standards (allowing them to play computer games instead of tilling fields, for instance) is owed largely in part to efforts by the government, meaning a good many people support the government despite its flaws. Finally, many Chinese are aware of how China is portrayed by western media, and see it as highly unjust. A boycott of Chinese tournaments for the reasons given would be reinforcing the notion that the western media is correct in its sentiments, and further proof that the west does not understand China.
I can go out onto the the street and say, boy, our government sucks. I hate communism. The party is run by a bunch of parasitic murderers.
Or to compare, i could say, Obama is an idiot and a stooge, the American government is a terrible socialistic mess and a warmongering parasite.
This freedom is very important and to me, is almost like an essentail bodily function. I'm not saying that our system is all that better than China's, because it's not and it's heading in that direction anyway, but the fact that we have the FREEDOM to speak our mind on any topic is something im thankful for and very important, something i desperately hope we can maintain in the US.
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Did you miss the part where I stated that you could do the same thing in the China?
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No, you cannot. At least not in the city. Police will arrest you and take you to jail.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_under_Japanese_rule
There were some modernization efforts, however, and by the late 19th century, Seoul became the first city in East Asia to have electricity, trolley cars, water, telephone and telegraph systems all at the same time.[26] But Korea remained a largely backward agricultural economy at the turn of the century.[27] "Japan's initial colonial policy was to increase agricultural production in Korea to meet Japan's growing need for rice. Japan had also begun to build large-scale industries in Korea in the 1930s as part of the empire-wide program of economic self-sufficiency and war preparation."
Here's a similar situation where the occupier invests infrastructure, and of course the biased occupiees probably didn't know what was good for them.
http://en.allexperts.com/e/k/ko/korea_under_japanese_rule.htm
The average life expectancy rose from 26 years to 42 years (1945) and the population increased two-fold, despite widespread economic poverty and malnutrition caused by the annual confiscation of Korean rice by Japanese landlords.
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On February 03 2010 03:38 pioneer8 wrote:
No, you cannot. At least not in the city. Police will arrest you and take you to jail.
... Yeah you're totally right. Because the people really care about what some random no namer does or thinks. Your Grubby comment alone shows how offbased and misguided your comments are.
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On February 03 2010 03:31 pioneer8 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2010 03:21 Dracid wrote:
Freer... now that's a strange sentiment. Explain how your life is necessarily more free from somebody who's Chinese, without making use of American rights which you don't actually take advantage of.
As for bringing awareness to the issue(which is vague as well), do you mean Chinese reactions or western? In terms of western reactions, nothing would really change, since most people already know the western half of the story, not to mention you're overestimating Grubby's fanbase.
As for Chinese reactions, you're simply wrong. People would hate him, yes, but not close-mindedly, and very, very, few would appreciate the gesture. The thing is, the Chinese for the most part know to take what the government tells them with a grain of salt. What the Chinese also realize is that their improved living standards (allowing them to play computer games instead of tilling fields, for instance) is owed largely in part to efforts by the government, meaning a good many people support the government despite its flaws. Finally, many Chinese are aware of how China is portrayed by western media, and see it as highly unjust. A boycott of Chinese tournaments for the reasons given would be reinforcing the notion that the western media is correct in its sentiments, and further proof that the west does not understand China. I can go out onto the the street and say, boy, our government sucks. I hate communism. The party is run by a bunch of parasitic murderers. Or to compare, i could say, Obama is an idiot and a stooge, the American government is a terrible socialistic mess and a warmongering parasite. This freedom is very important and to me, is almost like an essentail bodily function. I'm not saying that our system is all that better than China's, because it's not and it's heading in that direction anyway, but the fact that we have the FREEDOM to speak our mind on any topic is something im thankful for and very important, something i desperately hope we can maintain in the US.
Not to be rude, but have you ever been to China and tried to say these things and seen what happens? I was in Xi'An about half a year ago and watched a fat guy walk half naked with a bandana around his forehead in front of the city hall, waving a flag and screaming political epithets. Nobody even came out to stop him. A few tourists took pictures, but that was about it.
I'm just wondering where your sources of information are from.
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The laws are "criminal-defamation" “inciting subversion,” “use of rumor, slander, or other means to incite subversion of state power or overthrow of the socialist system” - A 5 year jail sentence.
You can believe whatever you want, i know about the law there.
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On February 03 2010 03:19 pioneer8 wrote:
Gamers boycotting China would send a message to young people just as did the boycott of the Olympics. There are a ton of gamers in China and alot of tournaments, mostly Wc3 afaik, and their numbers grow expodentially. Did you see VODs of the WCG? I used the example of Grubby, a white Dutchman, well loved in China with many many fans. If he, for example, were to do this, many of his fans would definately be effected by it, and as i said, a lot will close-mindedly hate him, but the good has been done, and maybe one day play there again when things change there.
You have to understand, if i were writing this post in China, i would be arrested and thrown in jail. Possibly even tortured under suspicion of conspiracy. That is the serioussness of this.
You're wrong. I've spent the past five months in China, and I can write posts criticizing the government without worrying about being tortured to death. I'm a student, not an insurgent, plus my words don't carry weight as I'm not anybody important or influential. I'm not a threat to stability, so they simply wouldn't care. You might think that the police would jail you or whatever, but you're wrong, plain and simple.
You can talk ill of the government in China, people do it all the time, poking jokes at China's censorship efforts and such. The only difference is that you can't actively try to undermine the government. Not to mention I told you to give examples of rights you don't take for granted. Unless you have a habit of making baseless public criticisms on the government, those don't count. My point here is that unless you're a political activist, your day-to-day life is not necessarily more "free" than a Chinese citizen's. People like to talk about freedom, I've yet to hear somebody explain how this "freedom" you enjoy makes a significant difference in your daily lives.
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On February 03 2010 03:44 pioneer8 wrote:
The laws are "criminal-defamation" “inciting subversion,” “use of rumor, slander, or other means to incite subversion of state power or overthrow of the socialist system” - A 5 year jail sentence.
You can believe whatever you want, i know about the law there.
Yeah but they're only gonna be used against someone important who speaks out against the government to many people, not some random person spewing bullshit in the street.
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I'm against meeting with the DL, not because it's not any of our business, not because it would be like China "recognizing" one of the US states as a sovereign nation, not because China is a culture thousands of years old (the US being not even 300 years old) and we have no place interfering with their agenda, not because relations with China / Russia are already strained...
But because it would cost too much money, and as an American, I don't care to see my taxes sent to Tibet. We already have enough financial problems.
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On February 03 2010 03:44 pioneer8 wrote:
The laws are "criminal-defamation" “inciting subversion,” “use of rumor, slander, or other means to incite subversion of state power or overthrow of the socialist system”
You can believe whatever you want, i know about the law there.
I'd be hardpressed to name any country where "inciting subversion of government" or "criminal-defamation" doesn't get you in trouble with the law. In fact, HEY WASN'T THIS WHAT THE CIVIL WAR WAS FOUGHT OVER?!
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On February 03 2010 03:48 gjg.instinct wrote:
I'm against meeting with the DL, not because it's not any of our business, not because it would be like China "recognizing" one of the US states as a sovereign nation, not because China is a culture thousands of years old (the US being not even 300 years old) and we have no place interfering with their agenda, not because relations with China / Russia are already strained...
But because it would cost too much money, and as an American, I don't care to see my taxes sent to Tibet. We already have enough financial problems.
All it is is a meeting between two people, nothing will actually come of it, your taxes will not be sent to Tibet as a result of this...
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On February 03 2010 03:44 pioneer8 wrote:
The laws are "criminal-defamation" “inciting subversion,” “use of rumor, slander, or other means to incite subversion of state power or overthrow of the socialist system” - A 5 year jail sentence.
You can believe whatever you want, i know about the law there.
Defamation is a crime in the USA. And again, I have to ask, where are your sources of info coming from? You seem to hold a view of life in China that is very different from what I've seen. I'm sure a very distorted picture of any country could arise if I were to just look at their laws and make a conjecture about what life there must be like.
For instance, there's a law in Texas that it's illegal to have pigs fornicating on a runway. That could create a very weird impression of what the USA is like if I looked at its laws. I just think you're taking a very roundabout and convoluted approach to try to justify your view of China.
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On February 03 2010 03:50 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2010 03:48 gjg.instinct wrote:
I'm against meeting with the DL, not because it's not any of our business, not because it would be like China "recognizing" one of the US states as a sovereign nation, not because China is a culture thousands of years old (the US being not even 300 years old) and we have no place interfering with their agenda, not because relations with China / Russia are already strained...
But because it would cost too much money, and as an American, I don't care to see my taxes sent to Tibet. We already have enough financial problems. All it is is a meeting between two people, nothing will actually come of it, your taxes will not be sent to Tibet as a result of this...
US taxes are already sent to Tibet -__-. The State Department and CIA are very active in Tibet.
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On February 03 2010 03:47 Dracid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2010 03:19 pioneer8 wrote:
Gamers boycotting China would send a message to young people just as did the boycott of the Olympics. There are a ton of gamers in China and alot of tournaments, mostly Wc3 afaik, and their numbers grow expodentially. Did you see VODs of the WCG? I used the example of Grubby, a white Dutchman, well loved in China with many many fans. If he, for example, were to do this, many of his fans would definately be effected by it, and as i said, a lot will close-mindedly hate him, but the good has been done, and maybe one day play there again when things change there.
You have to understand, if i were writing this post in China, i would be arrested and thrown in jail. Possibly even tortured under suspicion of conspiracy. That is the serioussness of this.
You're wrong. I've spent the past five months in China, and I can write posts criticizing the government without worrying about being tortured to death. I'm a student, not an insurgent, plus my words don't carry weight as I'm not anybody important or influential. I'm not a threat to stability, so they simply wouldn't care. You might think that the police would jail you or whatever, but you're wrong, plain and simple. You can talk ill of the government in China, people do it all the time, poking jokes at China's censorship efforts and such. The only difference is that you can't actively try to undermine the government. Not to mention I told you to give examples of rights you don't take for granted. Unless you have a habit of making baseless public criticisms on the government, those don't count. My point here is that unless you're a political activist, your day-to-day life is not necessarily more "free" than a Chinese citizen's. People like to talk about freedom, I've yet to hear somebody explain how this "freedom" you enjoy makes a significant difference in your daily lives.
What you're doing is undermining the importance of free speech, which margianalizing the lack of free speech for citizens. Yes, you can poke fun, a la, the era of King George, where you would speak in bated breath, but say an insult about dear leader to a police officer and you're going to jail.
Whether you think it's important or not, it is an essential freedom to be able to go up to a police officer, or soldier, and say, 'hey, our president is a lazy parasite who is very bad for our country. The entire party are worthless'. Try that in China.
As i said, you can try to downplay it, but it's signifigant. Also, there are internet regulations for the same things, as well as the gigantic block list of sites deemed objectionable to the Party.
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Storkhwaiting:
It's just common knowledge among the cities of these things and i have family that visits there. I haven't been there but know about the subject in very much detail, particularly about socialism.
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On February 03 2010 03:57 pioneer8 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2010 03:47 Dracid wrote:On February 03 2010 03:19 pioneer8 wrote:
Gamers boycotting China would send a message to young people just as did the boycott of the Olympics. There are a ton of gamers in China and alot of tournaments, mostly Wc3 afaik, and their numbers grow expodentially. Did you see VODs of the WCG? I used the example of Grubby, a white Dutchman, well loved in China with many many fans. If he, for example, were to do this, many of his fans would definately be effected by it, and as i said, a lot will close-mindedly hate him, but the good has been done, and maybe one day play there again when things change there.
You have to understand, if i were writing this post in China, i would be arrested and thrown in jail. Possibly even tortured under suspicion of conspiracy. That is the serioussness of this.
You're wrong. I've spent the past five months in China, and I can write posts criticizing the government without worrying about being tortured to death. I'm a student, not an insurgent, plus my words don't carry weight as I'm not anybody important or influential. I'm not a threat to stability, so they simply wouldn't care. You might think that the police would jail you or whatever, but you're wrong, plain and simple. You can talk ill of the government in China, people do it all the time, poking jokes at China's censorship efforts and such. The only difference is that you can't actively try to undermine the government. Not to mention I told you to give examples of rights you don't take for granted. Unless you have a habit of making baseless public criticisms on the government, those don't count. My point here is that unless you're a political activist, your day-to-day life is not necessarily more "free" than a Chinese citizen's. People like to talk about freedom, I've yet to hear somebody explain how this "freedom" you enjoy makes a significant difference in your daily lives. Whether you think it's important or not, it is an essential freedom to be able to go up to a police officer, or soldier, and say, 'hey, our president is a lazy parasite who is very bad for our country. The entire party are worthless'. Try that in China.
Why don't you try that in the US first and let me know how that turns out ... =\
Also I like how you are trying to ignore what actual experience is by spouting pure conjecture.
I mean, at this point, it's obvious you're just making random statements up.
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On February 03 2010 03:44 pioneer8 wrote:
The laws are "criminal-defamation" “inciting subversion,” “use of rumor, slander, or other means to incite subversion of state power or overthrow of the socialist system” - A 5 year jail sentence.
You can believe whatever you want, i know about the law there.
Well look at the Patriot act under Bush in the US:
SECTION 501 (Expatriation of Terrorists) expands the Bush administration's "enemy combatant" definition to all American citizens who "may" have violated any provision of Section 802 of the first Patriot Act. (Section 802 is the new defifnition of domestic terrorism, and the definition is "any action that endangers human life that is a violation of any Federal or State law.")
Under Section 501 a US citizen engaging in lawful activities can be grabbed off the street and thrown into a van never to be seen again. The Justice Department states that they can do this because the person "had inferred from conduct" that they were not a US citizen. Remember Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act states that any violation of Federal or State law can result in the "enemy combatant" terrorist designation.
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Care to create another thread on Chinese censorship and discuss that there?
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The fact of the matter is, the Western Media tend to censor more than the Chinese do and use that censorship to belittle China and defend the Tibetans when really it should be the other way.
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EPT
