EPT
in Bulgaria,so excuse him. t.tWhat Mr.X aka Insomnia has to say about BW and WC3 - Page 5
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mdb
Bulgaria4059 Posts
in Bulgaria,so excuse him. t.t | ||
Waxangel
United States33451 Posts
On February 05 2004 15:43 Tricky wrote: Btw i think this is the best opportunity we could ever have for FLAMING! lol isnt it? so LETS DO IT! I like you | ||
XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On February 05 2004 23:24 Teroru wrote: ur exactly right. I clearly wrote it "i wish he meant...". I didn't say *thats what he means*. Im saying that based on his obvious intelligence, i would wish and hope he meant something different, and i voiced it. I find it hard to comprehend that someone who has obvious high intelligence would honestly believe that u can be perfect at everything. Whether its war3, bw, or whatever the fuck else crosses ur mind. Cyric, i nearly always affirm with what you say. But i must give pause if u believe that ones lack of reasons for his opinion is justification for anothers lack of reasons in theirs. If one is inherrantly wrong, the other is as well. Despite his lacking skills in communication, i *was* trying to bring the level up a notch by not being arbitrary. Apparently i fucked up. I owe an apology to the lot of you: go back to your mindless flaming, the majority supports it, so it must be A-OK!. I was a bit careless with my statement about Mr.X's bad reasoning being justification for the rest of the idiocy going on in this thread. What I meant to say was that Mr.X's opinion is no better than any of the other unsupported flame posts. | ||
Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4511 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On February 05 2004 12:36 Orlandu wrote: Yikes you guys are incredibly narrow-minded. I far from agree with Insomnia, but you can't honestly believe you're right and that he's an idiot based off an opinion that you have. It's not fact that Brood War is a better game (it's an opinion many people share), that's all about taste and what each individual finds fun. You can't call him an idiot, or wrong, for stating his opinion. If he had more fun with Brood War he'd still be there. Is he wrong for trying to do what he finds fun? I think people are calling him an idiot because his logic is strange: "There's more things to do in bw, therefore War 3 is btter". I haven't read the interview, couldn't accses it before but I think that's what people get stuck on. Anyways, I can just say that I don't get the same feeling with war 3 that I had when I started playing BW, I guess it's because of the pace being different.. I always have loved really high speed games. And I also prefer 2d over 3d in RTS But I have seen really fun games in war3 - attackyourheart UD power <3 | ||
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Ilintar
Poland794 Posts
I've talked to some good Polish TFT players (25+ lvl on Euro), and generally they agree that WC3 is basically just a game of abused strategies and counters. There is virtually one counter for every major strategy, so it all boils down to perfect timing and build orders. I don't believe that makes a game fun or attractive. True, there's the micro factor that actually requires skill, but BW requires so much more. Most important of that - in BW you have to improvise. WC3 never leaves you with a situation that you're totally unprepared for - if your opponent does a really bizarre build, it probably sucks outright so you don't even have to prepare for it, if it does, it's _THE_ new abuse that will reign for like the next 2 months until someone finds _THE_ counter for it. If that's what Insomnia understood as "this game can be played perfectly" well, yes, I agree. I don't believe it makes WC3 a better game, however. | ||
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Macrophage
Germany730 Posts
bw and strategy games in general are no more BASED on intelligence than any first person shooter. on high lvl bw can sometimes, seldomly, have something to do with intelligence, more then high lvl fps, but average bw player certainly uses his mind less than high lvl fps player :>. and wc3/tft doenst require intelligence almost at all. you may anticipate what your opponents doing and where he is creeping etc (experience, but not much intelligence req here). | ||
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Radiohead
Norway201 Posts
Seriously, when a top player needs to RESTART a tourney game to watch a replay so he can see what to do against a certain race/strat AND he loses twice to a newbie like me, ITS SOMETHING REALLY WRONG WITH THE GAME. Warcraft III is SLOW, based purely on LUCK and ABUSE. Also, most warcraftplayers seems to be 13-year old ugly losers. Warcraft is like throwing dices, in other words totally fucked up. | ||
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Kacas
Brazil3143 Posts
u may know the strategies but you will need skills to execute it | ||
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iloveoo
634 Posts
why didn't he choose NE in the regame ?! | ||
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aseq
Netherlands3981 Posts
But then Blizzard made the decision to put in some random elements. Random item drops and random damage are most important out of these, i have little problems with creeps. Now everyone plays "perfect", the randomness will start to have a HUGE impact on the outcome of a game, since player levels are so close. So top-level games are now more decided by luck than ever before... Also, the fact that counters in WC never are insanely useful as in BW (rvr vs lings, valk vs muta, etc.etc.), it matters less whether you scout well, if you react late to a build it is less of a problem, since you can still use all you have and do relatively well. So scouting has become less important also. Those two alone make WC a less competitive game than BW. Also, the guy who said how does speed matter in an untimed game of chess. We're talking top level here, top level chess games are always timed. In fact, i don't like playing without timer since i get annoyed by ppl taking really long to think. You have to think faster to outplay, that's the skill here. Another thing is the attack and armor types, which are confusing in WC. There are about 6 attack and armor types, protectors do piercing damage, (how are stones piercing), and attack types doing EXTRA damage, how can anything ever do EXTRA damage vs an armor??? If i were that unit I'd just take off the armor to receive less damage^^. Unclear to me how Mr.X explains all this, but time will probably tell if he's right. Myself, I can't see a top level player being consistent since luck is such a big factor, and will always lose him some games, even if he's the best ever. Sorry for long post, could go on for pages, so much to say about this. | ||
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Filthy.
57 Posts
people like w3 because u micro for 95% of the game where as in bw u stand around doing nothing with ur units for 80% of the game. i wont try and say why i think its better but i will say that nobody hear should say why its worse when they clearly havent played it much and u make statements about the game that are completley false for example aseq almost everything u said about w3 is wrong | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On February 06 2004 04:18 Macrophage wrote: i couldnt read all thats written here but i find this interesting: bw and strategy games in general are no more BASED on intelligence than any first person shooter. on high lvl bw can sometimes, seldomly, have something to do with intelligence, more then high lvl fps, but average bw player certainly uses his mind less than high lvl fps player :>. and wc3/tft doenst require intelligence almost at all. you may anticipate what your opponents doing and where he is creeping etc (experience, but not much intelligence req here). I don't really agree~ | ||
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Randomizing
Germany441 Posts
On February 06 2004 08:06 Filthy. wrote: this forum is full of retards. people like w3 because u micro for 95% of the game where as in bw u stand around doing nothing with ur units for 80% of the game. i wont try and say why i think its better but i will say that nobody hear should say why its worse when they clearly havent played it much and u make statements about the game that are completley false for example aseq almost everything u said about w3 is wrong this guy is so right! i played bw for 4 years orso and in the beginning when i started playing w3 i thought the game was crap and slow as well but when u get a higher level and start playing vs skilled people the game is twice as hard as sc because of the high level of micro that is needed to win vs a descent player. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On February 06 2004 08:06 Filthy. wrote: this forum is full of retards. people like w3 because u micro for 95% of the game where as in bw u stand around doing nothing with ur units for 80% of the game. i wont try and say why i think its better but i will say that nobody hear should say why its worse when they clearly havent played it much and u make statements about the game that are completley false for example aseq almost everything u said about w3 is wrong ROFLOL RIGHT 80% OF THE GAME I DO NOTHING. STop playing fastest map ever plz.. | ||
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Radiohead
Norway201 Posts
On February 06 2004 06:40 iloveoo wrote: uhhh that doesn't make much sense ... why didn't he choose NE in the regame ?! because my brother didnt let him. Orcs are free win for elfs. | ||
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pyogenes
Brazil1401 Posts
Did u read what i said? Try quoting the *whole* concept. "The closer a person can get to perfection, the *higher* the competition will be. It will be less based off of luck and speed, and more so on consistancy." This is logical thought. This applies to every game u will ever play. Be it sport, chess, pogs, diving, figure skating, etc. Item drops and creepjacking are *random* factors. *those random factors* make the game about luck. *not the nearness to perfection*. look, follow me here, try not to get lost, its not that hard to keep up -2 players have exact micro and exact macro -both players have very good micro/macro -1 player creeps and gets a crystal ball as a drop, the other creeps and gets something like unholy aura or endurance aura -the unholy aura player GOT LUCKY and will win most likely simply because he got the better drop, this is how war3 is currently there is no "consistency" with item drops, they are random and 1 player will luck out over the other. thus the closer players get to perfectoin, the more the wc3 is based on luck factors i would beg to differ. You couldn't even establish a clear rebuttle to me, when what i said was clear and concise. If you can't understand someone who states what they mean clear and concisely, then it would be my experience to doubt your ability to understand someone who *isnt* clear about what they mean. i understood what you said, it was clear and it was concise. the only flaw in your argument here is that you assume i dont know understand what you mean hence i musnt be able to understand what insom means, when i clearly understand what both of you meant, and my lack of a rebuttal was not due to not understanding but rather due to laziness Thats a pretty arbitrary statement. I can't refute as u did not provide an example. You could tell me that god is a giant mango covered in feathers that has a 63 legs, and i couldn't refute that either. It doesn't make u inherrantly right. how does war3 reward intelligence? do tier3 units always beat tier1 units? no (unless you go tauren w/ orc) does going anti casters beat a player who goes casters? no (unless you go faerie dragons w/ night elf) etc etc.. I don't understand what you were trying to point out here. Chess is a superior *strategy* game to brood war, for there are no random factors. it is 100% strategy. Brood war is not. However, that does not make chess a *better game*, for that is only preference. Infact, i said that speed and other factors *make bw the better game*, but that does not mean its superior in *strategy*. no one mentioned chess, perhaps you got this impression from the other post. chess does have more strategy than brood war, but is it because it is a slower game? i doubt it seeing as how there ARE time limits in chess. warcraft 3 has less strategy because the counters are not defined well enough, alot of people dont even scout in warcraft 3.. because it doesnt matter because you already know what youre going to do, and chances are that if you are the better player you will win not because of "strategy" (remember you are pretty much already set in your build order) but rather because you can micro better / faster etc etc Being that u didnt understand me the first time, i doubt my words will fall any wiser this time round. I will cross my fingers. this is an assumption, thus it bears no validity =[ | ||
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pyogenes
Brazil1401 Posts
On February 05 2004 20:15 SoLaR[i.C] wrote: Item drops aren't random. Incase you haven't noticed, the harder the creeps, the better the items they drop. You don't go around picking up raise dead from lvl.2 murguls....And Creepjacking is a skill, not luck. yes they are. harder creeps do = better drops, but the drops in levels are so imbalanced its largely based on luck. | ||
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mindspike
Canada1902 Posts
the luck factor is no more apparent than in bw actually random items are balanced because you can sell useless items | ||
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pyogenes
Brazil1401 Posts
On February 06 2004 08:23 mindspike wrote: yea for a crappy amount of gold, and the gold that you do sell will not be enough to get a counter better than that other persons item dropaseq, it is very easy for the very best wc3 players to win 90% of their games in high level competition the luck factor is no more apparent than in bw actually random items are balanced because you can sell useless items | ||
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