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On February 08 2004 22:01 stimey d okgm fish wrote:
i'm just insulted by the whole ROC thing. i dont doubt TFT is decent or will be decent enough someday. b ut there were just so many fucking things wrong/inferior in ROC, it is just too insulting, i cant reward blizzard's behavior. i am staying away from TFT in protest. ROC is just has juicy dumb shot in every hole
starcraft wasnt that great until broodwar + patches came
i forget what starcraft 1.00 was like but i bet it was pretty unbalanced
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which patches are you talking about? please be specific ok? i wasnt even talkinga bout war3's balance anyways. god
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war3 = luck
bw = speed/skill
the only reason i can comprehend anyone says war3 is better is because they are very BORED of BW, after playing it for most probably 5 times the time of war3 or more. At one stage when i first played war3, i think i said it was better, but think about the first time you played each game... and how long they were fun for... bw wins.
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Hahaha...
Imagine a bunch of CS players made a thread and started discussing CS vs BW, how BW doesn't need any strategy and how much CS is a better game in everyway. You would probably laugh at their ignorance and not bother replying, because they would never understand anyway, right? This thread is almost similar, but this time im going to give it a try ^_^.
I haven't read most of the posts, its just too much, I just checked what the discussion is mainly about. Sorry for that.
First of all, you guys should stop concentrating on inso's answer. I've discussed the endless WC3 vs BW topic with many top/ex BW players, including inso in the past. I agree, he didn't really express himself in the best way. The answer could be misunderstood. But trust me, he got many more arguments on why he thinks WC3 is a better game, and just for the record he still enjoys (at least watching) BW.
Just face it, people have different taste, some like BW better, others prefer WC3. I obviously like WC3 better, but at the same time I really enjoy watching and playing BW. Stop being so aggressive, no one forces you to play WC3.
Other then that, if you want discuss balance in a game, you should know what you talk about *cough*intotherei*cough* Like someone pointed out, knights and destroyers serves a purpose. Destroyers are fucking good. Mass destroyers against Human is extremely powerful. I don't really get it, what makes dest and breakers bad anti casters? Most of the units in WC3 are really good if you know how to use them.
The Bond vs whoever replay was funny, but you can't judge from only one replay. Fairy dragons are good against casters, but as for example human you can micro and kill them without taking any damage, you have to hit n run. A spontaneous example is comparing M&M against lurkers. Just like lurkers, fairys can't move while in manaflare mode, thus you can just keep your casters out of range and focus fire on the fairys with riflemans, they got very low hitpoints. If he moves the fairys or comes running with his army outside the fairys range, you got a nice opportunity to manually slow half his army, get in a clap and bolt and then move back, then just repeat. And just like lurkers vs marines, if he gets into your base unnoticed and burrows, it can be devastating, just like the 4k.bond replay showed.
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MURICA15980 Posts
Heman, although I don't understand WHY you play that game, I get your point. 
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yeah his point is that some people just have different tastes and there's no way to discuss it because it's just arbitrary tastes and reasons don't play into it at all, therefore it's impossible to debate at all. oh, but he can debate and call ppl ignorant. then say that he didn't read most of the posts. and then put forth his own reasonings.
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ill try and explain why people like playing w3 over bw with an example of a game i played the other day
it was udvud and i had fiend/statue/dk/lich while other guy had fiend+abom/statue/cl/dk, essentially what this is equivalent to in bw is that we both had an mm army except they had more hps than in bw and there are heros.
in bw you would essentially stim and shift attack and then go back pounding ur hotkeys to make more units, if ur really fast and playing on lan or if u get lucky u might be able to pull back a rine and have his army follow it, or maybe you could choose to kill the medics first (bad idea though  ) but essentially this is all the battle consists of and takes maybe 30 seconds max.
in comparison in the udvud battle, because the units have more hps and you have more options with spells there is vastly more oppurtunity to micro. i essentially had a spell which can heal any fiend compeltley, a spell which can raise the armour of a unit, a spell which takes about half the hps of a fiend and does moderate splash damage, and my fiends can burrow. instead of the damage spell and armour spell the other guy has a spell which summons some fairly decent units and he also has 4 uses to see any burrowed fiends.
obviously there is so much more potential to use your units here and its this that will decide who wins or loses the game. because the unit hps are higher it takes proabably about 2 seconds of focus fire to kill a unit so you have time (but not that much) to see the fiend being killed and either cast frost armour on it and heal it, run it to the back of your army or burrow it. you also have the option of going for his statues (which heal units and give mana to his heros). these cant be targeted by spells (i.e no healing or direct damage spells) but they have more hps so if he runs them back you could lose 2 or 3 fiends if ur not careful while you try and kill the statue. the other option is to focus on his heros - if u can kill one of these it puts you at a great advantage for the rest of the battle, losing a quarter of your army to kill even one of the heros would be worth it - but they take reduced damage and are faster than ur fiends so are tough to take down
so the battle goes like this not for 30 seconds but for literally 10 minutes with all your attention on controlling your units - this is where all the skill in the game is and is where noone will ever be perfect, and more importantly for most people who like w3 better than bw this is why - because theres less emphasis on making a constant stream of probes and producing out of 10 gateways and a greater emphasis and more possibilities in controlling the units you have
there still definately exists very important elements of economy, strategy, and scouting etc. (although the economy is the 'weakest' part of the game in terms of having the option to choose military over economy as in bw) but the micro is the most important and in my mind the most fun part of rts
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On February 08 2004 23:36 HeMaN wrote:
Other then that, if you want discuss balance in a game, you should know what you talk about *cough*intotherei*cough* Like someone pointed out, knights and destroyers serves a purpose. Destroyers are fucking good. Mass destroyers against Human is extremely powerful. I don't really get it, what makes dest and breakers bad anti casters? Most of the units in WC3 are really good if you know how to use them.
so intotherei...i guess you know more than HeMaN ?
or maybe you're just talking out of your ass
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Sweden33723 Posts
On February 09 2004 02:20 Filthy. wrote: ill try and explain why people like playing w3 over bw with an example of a game i played the other day it was udvud and i had fiend/statue/dk/lich while other guy had fiend+abom/statue/cl/dk, essentially what this is equivalent to in bw is that we both had an mm army except they had more hps than in bw and there are heros. in bw you would essentially stim and shift attack and then go back pounding ur hotkeys to make more units, if ur really fast and playing on lan or if u get lucky u might be able to pull back a rine and have his army follow it, or maybe you could choose to kill the medics first (bad idea though ) but essentially this is all the battle consists of and takes maybe 30 seconds max. in comparison in the udvud battle, because the units have more hps and you have more options with spells there is vastly more oppurtunity to micro. i essentially had a spell which can heal any fiend compeltley, a spell which can raise the armour of a unit, a spell which takes about half the hps of a fiend and does moderate splash damage, and my fiends can burrow. instead of the damage spell and armour spell the other guy has a spell which summons some fairly decent units and he also has 4 uses to see any burrowed fiends. obviously there is so much more potential to use your units here and its this that will decide who wins or loses the game. because the unit hps are higher it takes proabably about 2 seconds of focus fire to kill a unit so you have time (but not that much) to see the fiend being killed and either cast frost armour on it and heal it, run it to the back of your army or burrow it. you also have the option of going for his statues (which heal units and give mana to his heros). these cant be targeted by spells (i.e no healing or direct damage spells) but they have more hps so if he runs them back you could lose 2 or 3 fiends if ur not careful while you try and kill the statue. the other option is to focus on his heros - if u can kill one of these it puts you at a great advantage for the rest of the battle, losing a quarter of your army to kill even one of the heros would be worth it - but they take reduced damage and are faster than ur fiends so are tough to take down so the battle goes like this not for 30 seconds but for literally 10 minutes with all your attention on controlling your units - this is where all the skill in the game is and is where noone will ever be perfect, and more importantly for most people who like w3 better than bw this is why - because theres less emphasis on making a constant stream of probes and producing out of 10 gateways and a greater emphasis and more possibilities in controlling the units you have there still definately exists very important elements of economy, strategy, and scouting etc. (although the economy is the 'weakest' part of the game in terms of having the option to choose military over economy as in bw) but the micro is the most important and in my mind the most fun part of rts
Didn't read all post but, M&M vs M&M is never used in BW as I'm sure you know, so that's a stupid example :O!
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I only read the first page and I have only a thing to say:
I'm not gonna trust a man who wears the same shirt a whole week
*cough* mr.x *cough* eswc
:S:S:S:S
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Bulgaria Rules
Go Go Insomnia
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Hmm..when I'm at pc bang I usually play like 10 games of bw, then to take a rest I play wc3 with friends over the lan. It is fun to play with ppl you know...at least I don't get upset when i lose a wc3 game
-_-;
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Nice Heman...
Banshees aren't totally useless either... Their AMS is QUITE good vs hero nukes, as you can't even dispel it anymore, you'd just have to recast it every 90 seconds or so (or when it takes the X amount of damage it needs to break down)
Very handy against say human who really rely on MK/paladin for killing heroes (usually)
Gyros... gyros aren't useless... maybe at the top level... but en masse they are still quite strong.. equal food they will kill other air units pretty well (flak upgrade is absolutely required though)
i was messing with some orc who went wyverns on me... he had about 6 or so wyverns and i made about 16 or 18 or so gyros (less food than his wyverns) but i had a couple sorcs for slow... but my gyros cleaned up his wyverns in a matter of seconds =/ (flak + 3 weapons)
so they aren't useless per se, but they are when fighing unequal food, or magic damage units in general (destroyers with orb = death)
spirit walkers? hmm maybe in solo... but in team games mass spirit link with healing wards is gosu
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Oh..which server is the most gosu in wc3?
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On February 09 2004 06:08 FreeZEternal wrote:
Oh..which server is the most gosu in wc3?
definately asia (kalimdor) then northrend (europe)
east/west cannot compare, i believe east is better than west as well nowadays
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On February 09 2004 06:09 SoleSteeler wrote: Show nested quote +On February 09 2004 06:08 FreeZEternal wrote:
Oh..which server is the most gosu in wc3? definately asia (kalimdor) then northrend (europe) east/west cannot compare, i believe east is better than west as well nowadays
Oh..thnx..heheh..I will try someday in asia +_+;;;;
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Just look at the asia ladder... there's like 12 level 50's now... europe has a level 42 i believe, and a couple level 40's, east has level 38? or 36 or so... west is only like 35 =/
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On February 09 2004 06:13 SoleSteeler wrote: Just look at the asia ladder... there's like 12 level 50's now... europe has a level 42 i believe, and a couple level 40's, east has level 38? or 36 or so... west is only like 35 =/
lvl 50 -_-;;;;;;;;;;;omg...
hehe...I enjoy both games(bw,wc3), they are very different...I think you can't really compare these two games...+_+
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Netherlands4540 Posts
the micro is so god damn repetitive tho , and 1-2 seconds can cost you the game, very frustating if you realise you are playing some 80 apm newbie who has 20k saved up in bank. ( it's like playing a newbie but losing cuz you forgot 'stim' or something in tvsz but then worse =p)
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EPT
