EPTYou can blame the Italian political system for his status (as I do) but you can't deny it.
Berlusconi attack! - Page 3
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KwarK
United States43186 Posts
You can blame the Italian political system for his status (as I do) but you can't deny it. | ||
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aTnClouD
Italy2428 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
On December 14 2009 13:40 iG.ClouD wrote: Your own concept of dictator doesn't match the common meaning of the word sir :D Mussolini was a dictator, Berlusconi is just a guy using the stupidity and ignorance and lack of any form of morals of italian citizens to his own interest. True. | ||
tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On December 14 2009 13:44 iG.ClouD wrote: Actually anyone with a brain and common sense or just an average education can't like him for the above reasons, but that doesn't make him a dictator. If there was the possibility of having a dictator in Italy the country wouldn't be part of the 3rd world now. I've actually never heard someone from Italy speak about Berlusconi before, but from the US, (and the UK judging by KwarK's comments) we find him authoritarian, mean-spirited, and ridiculous. It baffles us over here that such insane political anarchy could exist in which this man is the leader of a country. I don't think we understand in the US quite why Italy is so fractured as well, (obviously the history of the Italian region is one of independent cities and minor kingdoms) after all, we may not always agree in New York with the states of the former confederacy, but we just voted with several of them on our first African-American president, and at the very least we work together on larger issues. Yet it always seems that the disconnect between your North and South is much more difficult to bridge, and we find it hard to imagine why. But that seems to be the root cause of your political dysfunction. But at least from a foreign standpoint, what you call democracy would be called anarchy or oligarchy here in the states. I wouldn't call Berlusconi a dictator- otherwise he wouldn't get punched in the face - but I don't think he would mind being one. | ||
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Narwhal
United Kingdom314 Posts
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BloodDrunK
Bangladesh2767 Posts
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aTnClouD
Italy2428 Posts
the only and real problem we have in Italy right now is the power mafia holds over the country. You won't hear this from anyone else than me probably, but it is like that because italians are pitiful, superficial, ignorant, close minded people who care only about their little self interest and aren't able to see things in a bigger perspective. It's obvious criminality can generate and grow powerful in such a social environment, especially in southern Italy, which doesn't have much of an own identity and was used to be dominated by many different cultures. Speaking about Berlusconi, foreign people tend to think he's a problem or a threat to italian democracy. But he's not. He was democraticaly elected by the majority of the country, and trust me the sad thing is that there was no valid alternative. To put it bluntly Italy is just a shithole populated by retards. You can't leave retards alone in their decisions because they will most probably do the wrong thing every single time. And Italy is the proof of that. The only government not falling apart before 4 years since 19th century was the one led by Berlusconi and his ridicolous badly patched together right wing. Funny isn't it? So what I say basically is that democracy doesn't work in Italy because italian people can't see anything that goes past their nose. It's just beyond them and their poor culture. If there was a dictatorship in Italy or something nearly similar to that the country would be much healthier socially and economically than it is now. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
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KwarK
United States43186 Posts
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tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On December 14 2009 14:31 iG.ClouD wrote: In response to tree.hugger: the only and real problem we have in Italy right now is the power mafia holds over the country. You won't hear this from anyone else than me probably, but it is like that because italians are pityful, superficial, ignorant, close minded people who care only about their little self interest and aren't able to see things in a bigger perspective. It's obvious criminality can generate and grow powerful in such a social environment, especially in southern Italy, which doesn't have much of an own identity and was used to be dominated by many different cultures. Speaking about Berlusconi, foreign people tend to think he's a problem or a threat to italian democracy. But he's not. He was democraticaly elected by the majority of the country, and trust me the sad thing is that there was no valid alternative. To put it bluntly Italy is just a shithole populated by retards. You can't leave retards alone in their decisions because they will most probably do the wrong thing every single time. And Italy is the proof of that. The only government not falling apart before 4 years since 20th century was the one led by Berlusconi and his ridicolous badly patched together right wing. Funny isn't it? So what I say basically is that democracy doesn't work in Italy because italian people aren't able to put into perspective anything that goes beyond their nose. If there was a dictatorship in Italy or something nearly similar to that the country would be much healthier socially and economically than it is now. I'm interested. Perhaps because it's something we value so highly in America, but I think it's very interesting what you say about democracy not being able to work in Italy. I can say that we complain about stupid people voting idiots into office all the time here in the US, but we'd rather have imperfect decisions made by imperfect elected officials than by someone like Mr. Berlusconi, or any other kind of fiat. I've never been to your wonderful country (I've seen it though, across the Swiss border) but I find it implausible that your voters are any different than ours. I'd bet they know a little more geography to start off with. I agree with your analysis that Berlusconi was voted in because he represented a modicum of stability, and was the best alternative to Prodi and the neutered left, but I'd say that has little to do with the electorate as a whole, and more to do with party structures that discourage creativity and new ideas, and a deeply fractured party system which is highly beholden to various regions. What do you think Italy needs to do to get out of it's stagnation? Is there any trans-formative political figure you have faith in? On December 14 2009 14:41 KwarK wrote: I find him hilarious but that's probably just because it's not happening in my country. Me too, and probably for the same reasons. Gaddafi too, because he's renounced nuclear bombs and terrorism, and is now trying to get Italian women to convert to Islam. Can you imagine if Berlusconi and Gaddafi switched countries? | ||
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Lucktar
United States526 Posts
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WeSt
Portugal918 Posts
On December 14 2009 10:02 SchOOl_VicTIm wrote: Berlusconi is a funny guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3k9pMtrccQ&NR=1 Funny how? | ||
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Robinsa
Japan1333 Posts
"But Berlusconi said that, even in a militarized state, crimes like rape can happen. "You can't consider deploying a force that would be sufficient to prevent the risk," the ANSA and Apcom news agencies quoted him as saying. "We would have to have so many soldiers because our women are so beautiful."" ... Berlusconi, in an effort to explain himself, said he was complimenting Italian women "because there are only about 100,000 people in law enforcement, while there are millions of beautiful women." SRC: http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=6726978 | ||
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aTnClouD
Italy2428 Posts
On December 14 2009 14:45 tree.hugger wrote: I'm interested. Perhaps because it's something we value so highly in America, but I think it's very interesting what you say about democracy not being able to work in Italy. I can say that we complain about stupid people voting idiots into office all the time here in the US, but we'd rather have imperfect decisions made by imperfect elected officials than by someone like Mr. Berlusconi, or any other kind of fiat. I've never been to your wonderful country (I've seen it though, across the Swiss border) but I find it implausible that your voters are any different than ours. I'd bet they know a little more geography to start off with. I agree with your analysis that Berlusconi was voted in because he represented a modicum of stability, and was the best alternative to Prodi and the neutered left, but I'd say that has little to do with the electorate as a whole, and more to do with party structures that discourage creativity and new ideas, and a deeply fractured party system which is highly beholden to various regions. What do you think Italy needs to do to get out of it's stagnation? Is there any trans-formative political figure you have faith in? Me too, and probably for the same reasons. Gaddafi too, because he's renounced nuclear bombs and terrorism, and is now trying to get Italian women to convert to Islam. Can you imagine if Berlusconi and Gaddafi switched countries? To put a comparison for a better understanding of italian situation watch the film Idiocracy. The film itself is kind of humorous but it explains perfectly what's going on in this country. For a democracy to work properly all you need is people who share a moral code that fit the model. The stupidest of the american citizens holds the same amount of voting power as the most enlightened one just because they share one thing: an easily understandable moral code that shares the same roots as the country and evolves from time to time along with it. For example if your prime minister lies about his involvement with criminality and you have the proofs of that what are you supposed to feel as a democratic citizen? Indignation of course, and you don't have to be particulary smart or cultured to know that there are things which are plain wrong if you live in a democratic country. Italian politicians can do or say whatever they can because italians lack any sort of moral education. After Mussolini admitted to have ordered multiple murders the crowd applauded him. Just because italians lacked, and still lack for the most part, any form of moral education. The same is happening with Berlusconi, he was involved with mafia, he runs the country only for his own self interest, he can spit on family values, but very few people feel indignated. And that's pretty much the reason democracy can't work, hasn't worked, and won't work in Italy as well and effectively as it does for USA. That's why I think Italy can't get out of its stagnation through democracy. The only kind of government that worked well for this country (economically and technologically-wise) was the dictatorship under Mussolini. So no, I don't think any politician right now could represent what Italy needs to get through this stagnation. Italy will just slowly become third world and won't be considered anymore a civilized country in a very short time. | ||
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lOvOlUNiMEDiA
United States643 Posts
On December 14 2009 15:42 iG.ClouD wrote: To put a comparison for a better understanding of italian situation watch the film Idiocracy. The film itself is kind of humorous but it explains perfectly what's going on in this country. For a democracy to work properly all you need is people who share a moral code that fit the model. The stupidest of the american citizens holds the same amount of voting power as the most enlightened one just because they share one thing: an easily understandable moral code that shares the same roots as the country and evolves from time to time along with it. For example if your prime minister lies about his involvement with criminality and you have the proofs of that what are you supposed to feel as a democratic citizen? Indignation of course, and you don't have to be particulary smart or cultured to know that there are things which are plain wrong if you live in a democratic country. Italian politicians can do or say whatever they can because italians lack any sort of moral education. After Mussolini admitted to have ordered multiple murders the crowd applauded him. Just because italians lacked, and still lack for the most part, any form of moral education. The same is happening with Berlusconi, he was involved with mafia, he runs the country only for his own self interest, he can spit on family values, but very few people feel indignated. And that's pretty much the reason democracy can't work, hasn't worked, and won't work in Italy as well and effectively as it does for USA. That's why I think Italy can't get out of its stagnation through democracy. The only kind of government that worked well for this country (economically and technologically-wise) was the dictatorship under Mussolini. So no, I don't think any politician right now could represent what Italy needs to get through this stagnation. Italy will just slowly become third world and won't be considered anymore a civilized country in a very short time. So, what you are saying is that Berlusconi's problem is not that he is authoritarian but that he isn't authoritarian enough? | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
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JohannesH
Finland1364 Posts
How to handle foreign relations | ||
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Dav_
Hungary236 Posts
On December 14 2009 10:02 SchOOl_VicTIm wrote: Berlusconi is a funny guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3k9pMtrccQ&NR=1 edit:hmm... why isn't this getting embedded?  ok now i feel sorry for him. this guy is a hero edit: "I hope you understand that's an actor. Unfortunately the real one is not that different ._." damn. than hit him with more statues | ||
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JackMorrisZilah
Italy76 Posts
On December 14 2009 15:42 iG.ClouD wrote: To put a comparison for a better understanding of italian situation watch the film Idiocracy. The film itself is kind of humorous but it explains perfectly what's going on in this country. For a democracy to work properly all you need is people who share a moral code that fit the model. The stupidest of the american citizens holds the same amount of voting power as the most enlightened one just because they share one thing: an easily understandable moral code that shares the same roots as the country and evolves from time to time along with it. For example if your prime minister lies about his involvement with criminality and you have the proofs of that what are you supposed to feel as a democratic citizen? Indignation of course, and you don't have to be particulary smart or cultured to know that there are things which are plain wrong if you live in a democratic country. Italian politicians can do or say whatever they can because italians lack any sort of moral education. After Mussolini admitted to have ordered multiple murders the crowd applauded him. Just because italians lacked, and still lack for the most part, any form of moral education. The same is happening with Berlusconi, he was involved with mafia, he runs the country only for his own self interest, he can spit on family values, but very few people feel indignated. And that's pretty much the reason democracy can't work, hasn't worked, and won't work in Italy as well and effectively as it does for USA. This isn't the main reason, at all. When Berlusconi talk about himself, he doesn't talk about a man involved with mafia or a man who runs the country only for his own interests. He doesn't talk about the origin of his money, nor about his big interests conficts. Surely the morality of italians people is degenerated in the last years, but not enough to allow him to present himself the way he really is and gain the consensus anyway. What he is telling, everytime he has the oppurtunity to, is the story of his persecution by the opposition, by magistrature, by media, by the bad comunists hidded among people (and last but not least, by mafia... LOL). He is presenting himself like the only man caring about the insterest of italians, the man who resolved the trash-emergengy in Campania and the man who build homes for the displaced of Abruzzo. When he talk, he doesn't try to exploit the absence of morality of italians people, he tries to exploit their IGNORANCE. It's different. On December 14 2009 13:24 iG.ClouD wrote: Rofl he's not a dictator nor he controls information like foreign journalists say. Actually almost every single piece of paper you can read here is against him. That's false, and I see this as the main problem instead. What papers are you reading?? What TV news are you watching??? Maybe he isn't a dictator in the common sense of the term, and he can't censor the informations he doesn't like at will, but ALL of the public media is heavily influenced by him. HEAVILY. You talk about italians with "a brain and common sense or just an average education", I think this isn't enough. They must be able to KNOW about what's happening, before all, or their average education is simply useless. Internet is the only way, rare exceptions aside, to really be informed nowadays in Italy. If you want a reason for why democracy seems to fail in our country, there it is. | ||
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