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Sigh.
Someone asked my background, I gave it. Stop being children. I've been in touch with Atrioc and thoroughly explained the issues at hand. Your responses are exactly why I am not going over why your decks to this point have been weak and why this game needs a very quick fix before we try to get going with it.
On June 16 2009 07:52 PanoRaMa wrote:
i prob have more experience than you in ptcg AND poker keeping in mind I played the TCG when I was 10-12 years old. quit it with the retarded condescending attitude, god forbid you actually try to contribute to a constructive conversation w/o acting high and mighty.
Yes you probably do have more experience as a 10-12 year old Pokemaster! Which makes you 16 or so I think. Note the part where I played it for a few months and moved on to a more competitive card game with international competition and serious prize money.
I am sure you are an unbelievable card gamer. Absolutely incredible. I'll speak to you with the reverence you deserve.
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Everything I've said was a direct response to your trollish post. You mentioned people with real backgrounds, I'm not some MTG pro like you but if I don't have the "experience" or "background" then no one here likely does. Like I mentioned, I played it very seriously when I was young as hell (and no I'm not even close to 16), but I was still able to keep up with some of the more renowned players at the time. I asked your pokegym/pojo background, not about your MTG awesomeness. I'm sure you ARE good at what you do and most likely better than me in the field of pokemon/MTG, but it's no reason to start being a condescending dick. If THESE types of responses are the reason why you don't like to respond and contribute to this thread then you're being the kid.
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I really don't see what kind of lockdown you see given the current set list that I don't see. The format favors control, and there's no true combo deck possible given the frame rules, so I think Jaedong.dec (see my post on page 11) is the ideal play, since it pretty much breaks the game's one rule of tempo, and Iris pretty much just eats a Path of the Night.
I mean if we've had Patrick Chapin or Kai Budde or Jon Finkel on the site this whole time and I didn't know about I'd be pretty surprised.
Anyways, obvious troll is obvious, etc. Even if we didn't question your credentials, I think you at least owe Atrioc some suggestions to start the conversation about what you think could improve the game.
My opinion? I think Jaedong + Team card denial is an unbalanced strategy given the fact that he cannot be easily 'sniped' if you will, and can easily prevent any Progamer with an attack that costs more than 1 energy from ever attacking. With this situation, there's no need for KeSPA Interference. Here's some ways to remedy what I think might be an unbalanced deck:
-I think the first step should be a way to lock Pro Powers, either a special that can be played to lock a power for a turn, or a Map effect (since the errata about Tempest said it only affects damage from maps), but definitely not something recursive and unanswerable.
-A Progamer with an _attack_ that allows them to accelerate Team cards onto their teammates or themselves, from the retired pile, for example, might allow for some better long-term control game plan against the OZnslaught, which will expend its deck rather rapidly. You could balance this by not creating many recursive Specials (Itemfinder, Nightly Garbage Run).
-For dedicated, more traditional-style decks, definitely include some cards like Lass or Rocket's Sneak Attack. I wouldn't include something exactly like RSA though unless you had to discard 2 as an additional cost to play it or something. Sometimes stranding someone off of an TLPD or OSL Selection might be game-breaking.
-Sturdier Progamers, or possibly more widespread use of status effects, directly implemented onto otherwise-useful attacks.
Hope this helps!
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Some questions about the rules of this game:
Are you actually not allowed to go above 60 cards in your deck in this game?
Does the person who plays first get to attack on the first turn? Does he draw a card on the first turn?
Are you allowed to mulligan whenever you want, or only when you don't have a Basic Progamer?
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United States20667 Posts
I'd just like to note that this entire site is based on people doing favors to randoms.
Nobody is doubting your competitive resume, but your supercilious attitude makes it hard to treat you seriously.
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On June 16 2009 08:55 Gustav_Wind wrote:
Some questions about the rules of this game:
Are you actually not allowed to go above 60 cards in your deck in this game?
Does the person who plays first get to attack on the first turn? Does he draw a card on the first turn?
Are you allowed to mulligan whenever you want, or only when you don't have a Basic Progamer?
Assuming we're adhering to pokemon TCG rules for this which is likely:
1. 60 max, no more no less
2. I think this first turn ruling was changed when the entire play format was changed (I quit before these new rules were implemented), but if we're talking about how it was played the first few years, then yeah first player gets to draw and attack, which made for possible FTKOs with certain basics (Erika's Jiggly I think?) and whoring out your deck til you find plus powers.
3. Only if you don't have a Basic in your hand (in which you'd have to show your hand to your opponent). You can't just keep redrawing til you find a perfect draw 
Edit: Well said, LR.
Kribble: Yeah good points, I mentioned earlier that with expansions will come newer opportunities. Remember the Rocket expansion? That alone fueled years of locking/trapping archetypes, great times. I personally love those and it was probably where I exceled most in, but I'd imagine it'd be incredibly tough for just Atrioc to implement all the tools himself without hurting balance too much. This is pretty exciting, it's like starting the pokemon TCG all over again and reading up on japanese translations of future sets, etc haha
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United States1866 Posts
Just to clear the air here with everyone - Sleight did actually give some really helpful advice about the TCG, most notably the flaw in the iloveoov card (as it was written) that allowed you to use it to get another iloveoov, play that to get another iloveoov, etc. The rewrite will specify "any terran progamer other than "Iloveoov - Player/Coach". Though I agree that there is no reason for kind of attitude or superiority - this isnt a pro tournament TCG, just a (hopefully!) fun community game that everyone can enjoy/discuss.
On June 16 2009 08:55 Gustav_Wind wrote:
Some questions about the rules of this game:
Are you actually not allowed to go above 60 cards in your deck in this game?
Does the person who plays first get to attack on the first turn? Does he draw a card on the first turn?
Are you allowed to mulligan whenever you want, or only when you don't have a Basic Progamer?
1. Yeah, 60 cards is the exact amount you must have you in your deck. No more, no less.
2. Yes the person who goes first can both attack and draw on the first turn.
3. No, you have no choice on when you mulligan. Its only with your first 7 cards, and only if you dont have a basic progamer, and if you do it your opponent can draw an extra card if they want. This means you want to have at least 7 basic progamers (preferably more) in your deck to have basic odds of getting one in your first draw.
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On June 16 2009 09:10 Atrioc wrote:Just to clear the air here with everyone - Sleight did actually give some really helpful advice about the TCG, most notably the flaw in the iloveoov card (as it was written) that allowed you to use it to get another iloveoov, play that to get another iloveoov, etc. The rewrite will specify "any terran progamer other than "Iloveoov - Player/Coach". Though I agree that there is no reason for kind of attitude or superiority - this isnt a pro tournament TCG, just a (hopefully!) fun community game that everyone can enjoy/discuss. Show nested quote +On June 16 2009 08:55 Gustav_Wind wrote:
Some questions about the rules of this game:
Are you actually not allowed to go above 60 cards in your deck in this game?
Does the person who plays first get to attack on the first turn? Does he draw a card on the first turn?
Are you allowed to mulligan whenever you want, or only when you don't have a Basic Progamer? 1. Yeah, 60 cards is the exact amount you must have you in your deck. No more, no less. 2. Yes the person who goes first can both attack and draw on the first turn. 3. No, you have no choice on when you mulligan. Its only with your first 7 cards, and only if you dont have a basic progamer, and if you do it your opponent can draw an extra card if they want. This means you want to have at least 7 basic progamers (preferably more) in your deck to have basic odds of getting one in your first draw.
Doesn't that make going first a huge advantage and strictly better? Magic at least tries to mitigate it by having the first turn player not draw, and I think in Yugioh the first turn player can't attack.
I asked about mulliganing because it seems like games where you have to keep a 1 basic hand and just die would happen sometimes.
Also I feel dumb for missing the iloveoov exploit. it is fairly obvious in hindsight... I knew he was really good but I didn't realize how good =P
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Not sure how it worked in practice in those 2 games but in pokemon it was just a natural hurdle that you'd have to learn to deal with (for one, having a strong basic selection so that you can start with a basic that can not only take hits but also swing momentum back for you on YOUR turn, a Basic Set example would be Electabuzz who has high hp and can paralyze with 1 energy).
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Actually I thought about chaining oovs, but you probably haven't played Pokemon since about the time of Neo Genesis, sleight, when Gust of Wind rotated out, bench spaces became very, very precious.
Because there were so many effective techs, they were more important to keep clear. And once a guy got knocked out, you always wanted a counter-attacker to chain-revenge kill whoever came out. Furthermore, getting more basic Progamers isn't really actually much of an advantage at all, when you're playing the TLPD/OSL Selection engine, playing out basics becomes more of a necessity and not a problem. Team Cards are the only form of tempo in this game. Playtest a bit against my Jaedong deck and then come tell me how 'broken' and 'degenerate' Oov + Iris is. I'm not trying to boast, I'm just trying to point out the central tenets of the game so better development can occur.
Besides, I would want to use my oovs (I will probably see one or two in my first three turns when I go through half my library off of TLPD+OSL Selection) to select a TvX Specialist A rank Progamer as "situational" tech. Against whatever my opponent's primary threat currently is.
I think its very important to not allow the player going first to use trainers during his or her first turn. getting the first Team attach, first evolution, and first opportunity to bench Progamers from his hand is enough of an advantage as it is.
Still it might be interesting to apply the "Legend Rule" from M:tG somehow to make a more flavorful game.
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On June 16 2009 09:35 SirKibbleX wrote:
Actually I thought about chaining oovs, but you probably haven't played Pokemon since about the time of Neo Genesis, sleight, when Gust of Wind rotated out, bench spaces became very, very precious.
Because there were so many effective techs, they were more important to keep clear. And once a guy got knocked out, you always wanted a counter-attacker to chain-revenge kill whoever came out. Furthermore, getting more basic Progamers isn't really actually much of an advantage at all, when you're playing the TLPD/OSL Selection engine, playing out basics becomes more of a necessity and not a problem. Team Cards are the only form of tempo in this game. Playtest a bit against my Jaedong deck and then come tell me how 'broken' and 'degenerate' Oov + Iris is. I'm not trying to boast, I'm just trying to point out the central tenets of the game so better development can occur.
Besides, I would want to use my oovs (I will probably see one or two in my first three turns when I go through half my library off of TLPD+OSL Selection) to select a TvX Specialist A rank Progamer as "situational" tech. Against whatever my opponent's primary threat currently is.
Still it might be interesting to apply the "Legend Rule" from M:tG somehow to make a more flavorful game.
Just curious, how are you playtesting at this point? Are you playing against yourself or just goldfishing? Do you have a working game interface already?
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This is one of the coolest contributions to the community EVER. There obviously can't be perfect balance at this stage, but I think with continuing support this can really be refined and expanded upon. Awesome work.
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United States10328 Posts
does free really do 20 damage to himself? should it be 2?
and nada kills everyone (almost; 10 damage?) on your own bench? T__T
LOL name change on doctor.k and frozean
also why are some of the s-class gamers worse than A-class :O. like flash and stork and zero are pretty unfortunate... whoa stork and zero have 0 gg cost. ok maybe they're not worse 1v1, but... hmm. ktf is pretty weak.
haha idra!
LOL rock. and january. and python. oh man so good. also, still KT(F)?
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My enthusiasm here is being somewhat dampened by the realization that I will never win a game. I've not done more CGing than a little Magic before (never had the money), and as a result I am totally out of my league.
Doesn't mean I'm not going to try it though.
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United States20667 Posts
The Legend Rule actually seems appropriate. I mean OZ doesn't have Moustachezerg and Piratezerg no matter how much they'd like to.
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Just curious, how are you playtesting at this point? Are you playing against yourself or just goldfishing? Do you have a working game interface already?
Nothing quite as glorious as that would be, unfortunately. I just have a bunch of friends around who still play pre-Neo Genesis Pokemon for fun. Usually we make house rules like "no Oak, limit 2 CS." They thought it sounded like a pretty fun idea so we all printed off some cards yesterday and played a whole bunch today, mostly just rebuilds of Pokemon-style decks with newer trees and cooler techs. I think I like this game a lot better.
I personally think that not having Gust is the biggest difference, as the game focuses more on defense than offense. Without a way to reuse retired cards (Item Finder) it becomes more difficult to keep the draw engine going (honestly, this is a good thing!), but you can still generally draw 20+ cards on the first turn, and easily find 3 of 4 Liquipedias to enable first-turn kills occasionally, if your opening match up is good.
The thing I must insist on most is ensuring that the player who goes first cannot use trainers. This eliminates the possibility that player one can 'go off' and search his whole deck for all his liquipedia and get 'cheese' win while his opponent is holding a god-hand. At least as long as player one has a chance to go, he can lay additional Progamers (to get oovs comes-into-play ability, for example), and develop his board. When player two goes, they will be able to use trainers immediately, though hopefully player 1 has had an opportunity to minimize the chances of a 'cheese' win (by GGing from a bad matchup, for example).
On June 16 2009 11:21 Musoeun wrote:
My enthusiasm here is being somewhat dampened by the realization that I will never win a game. I've not done more CGing than a little Magic before (never had the money), and as a result I am totally out of my league.
Doesn't mean I'm not going to try it though.
Really, since you won't have to buy cards or anything, you will be able to build exactly the deck you want. I have a feeling that this set gives players a lot of wiggle room even still to innovate, at least within the framework of a few archetypes. Atrioc you're very popular with my friends right now :D
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There a way to play this online?
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United States1866 Posts
On June 16 2009 12:00 SirKibbleX wrote:Show nested quote +Just curious, how are you playtesting at this point? Are you playing against yourself or just goldfishing? Do you have a working game interface already? Nothing quite as glorious as that would be, unfortunately. I just have a bunch of friends around who still play pre-Neo Genesis Pokemon for fun. Usually we make house rules like "no Oak, limit 2 CS." They thought it sounded like a pretty fun idea so we all printed off some cards yesterday and played a whole bunch today, mostly just rebuilds of Pokemon-style decks with newer trees and cooler techs. I think I like this game a lot better. I personally think that not having Gust is the biggest difference, as the game focuses more on defense than offense. Without a way to reuse retired cards (Item Finder) it becomes more difficult to keep the draw engine going (honestly, this is a good thing!), but you can still generally draw 20+ cards on the first turn, and easily find 3 of 4 Liquipedias to enable first-turn kills occasionally, if your opening match up is good. The thing I must insist on most is ensuring that the player who goes first cannot use trainers. This eliminates the possibility that player one can 'go off' and search his whole deck for all his liquipedia and get 'cheese' win while his opponent is holding a god-hand. At least as long as player one has a chance to go, he can lay additional Progamers (to get oovs comes-into-play ability, for example), and develop his board. When player two goes, they will be able to use trainers immediately, though hopefully player 1 has had an opportunity to minimize the chances of a 'cheese' win (by GGing from a bad matchup, for example). Show nested quote +On June 16 2009 11:21 Musoeun wrote:
My enthusiasm here is being somewhat dampened by the realization that I will never win a game. I've not done more CGing than a little Magic before (never had the money), and as a result I am totally out of my league.
Doesn't mean I'm not going to try it though. Really, since you won't have to buy cards or anything, you will be able to build exactly the deck you want. I have a feeling that this set gives players a lot of wiggle room even still to innovate, at least within the framework of a few archetypes. Atrioc you're very popular with my friends right now :D
Wow this is really awesome !
I am super honored that you guys actually played and enjoyed it, haha, and I will 100% take into account your balance suggestions - the "no special cards on first turn" sounds perfectly logical I'll update it into the OP once the contest is over (I'm pretty sure there is a rule that I cant update my guide after the deadline or risk being disqualified).
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Atrioc, will you consider making different versions of the same progamer in the future? For example, Savior or oov at their prime? Kinda like the gym leader versions of different Pokemon (Correct me if I'm wrong here, I didn't really play much of Pokemon TCG). You could call it the "Legends" expansion set or something.
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United States1866 Posts
On June 16 2009 13:18 I8PP wrote:
Atrioc, will you consider making different versions of the same progamer in the future? For example, Savior or oov at their prime? Kinda like the gym leader versions of different Pokemon (Correct me if I'm wrong here, I didn't really play much of Pokemon TCG). You could call it the "Legends" expansion set or something.
Absolutely - the opportunities are too enticing to have cards like Nal_Ra, prime sAviOr, Boxer, Garimto, even Grrrr.. that it would be crazy not to allow versions of a progamer from a different era.
"Legends" expansion is actually a pretty great title, too. Right now though, I'm only working on the eStro expansion and hi-res typo-fixed versions of all the original cards.
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EPT
