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United States1865 Posts
THE STARCRAFT PROGAMER TRADING CARD GAME: OFFICAL GUIDE
FIRST: Download All 112 SC: TCG Cards
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- Teamliquid Mirror!
Edit: Guide to Online Play with Magic Workstation
Table of Contents:
Section 1: Getting Started
Section 2: Constructing a Deck
Section 3: Playing the Game
Section 4: Important Information
Section 5: The Future
Section 6: Full Card List
Section 7: User Created Decks
Welcome to the Starcraft Korean Proscene Trading Card Game, an idea of mine for a long time that the SC2 beta key contest has finally pushed me to finish. It is a fully realized card game that lets people build decks using SC pro gamers, maps, coaches, teams, etc. and play them against each other in a fun, fast-paced way.
Section 1: Getting Started
The game rules were originally based on my trading card game of choice, Magic: The Gathering, but after doing some research I realized it would be a lot more fun and fitting to the way Korean Starcraft plays out, especially in proleague matches, to base it on the Pokemon TCG (the concept of 1 battler fighting at a time on a team, with the rest hanging out on a bench, etc.). So many of the basic ideas and rules come from that, obviously heavily modified for the purpose of better adapting to subject material of South Korean progamers. This simply means anyone familiar with the Pokemon TCG will have an easier time picking up this game 
The basic requirements to start any game are simple: you will need two players each with a 60 card deck, some stamina/damage counters (can be pennies, small rocks, piece of paper, etc.) to identify when a Pro Gamer has taken a hit, and some type of coin for use in any coin-flip situations.
Section 2: Constructing a Deck
First, let’s identify the five basic card types: Progamer, Team, Map, Special, and Bonjwa.
Progamer
The progamer cards are the most important cards in a deck, as they represent the people you will be sending out to win the match. They come in three varieties; S-Class, A-Class, and Basic. Higher-tier progamers can only by placed by “upgrading” from a progamer that is one tier below (S-class progamer must be placed on top of A-class which must be placed on top of Basic), but they all function the same.
Example Card:
As you can see in this HiyA [fOu] card, every progamer card has five important pieces of information: the “Stamina” value, representing how much damage the progamer can take before retiring (being discarded), their “Attack” value(s) that represents how much damage they can dish out to opposing progamers, their “GG” value which is the cost, in team cards, of retreating back to the bench. Finally some progamer cards have a “Weak Matchup” and a “Strong Matchup”, which indicate whether a progamer will take extra damage or resist damage from a certain race.
Team
Team cards represent the motivation that each proteam gives to its players in the form of salary, team spirit, transportation, training facilities, etc, etc. In essence, they are the "energy" that fuels the Korean progamer. The SC TCG has team cards for 10 of the 12 Korean proteams (eStro and Air Force ACE will be coming in later expansions) As you can see in the above example, HiyA[fOu]'s attack has three icons next to it. These represent the required team cards to use that attack - in this case 2 Oz Team Cards and 1 Team Card of any type (represented by the plain "T" symbol).
Example Card:
Map
Map cards represent the various Korean map pool changes that can totally shake up proleague/individual leagues in favor of one race or another. Every map card alters the current match in some way, usually by giving one or more races a bonus to a certain match up. Making sure the current map card is favorable to your lineup of progamers is an important part of the SC: TCG. Remember there can only be one map card in play at any time, so whenever you play a map card you retire the previous map card, whether your opponent played it or not. This means the only way to get rid of an unfavorable map that your opponent has played is to play one of your own!
Example Card:
Special
Special Cards represent everything else about progaming in Korea; from the OSL Group Selection to Netizens, Fangirls, and the tempatations of Poker and the Path of the Night. These cards drastically alter the flow of the game and can give the player who uses them wisely a massive advantage.
Example Card:
Bonjwa
Finally, we have Bonjwa cards, representing those special few Korean progamers who have exhibited unstoppable control over the rest of the Korean proscene. This is not like any ordinary progamer card: any player who actually manages to play a Bonjwa card will win the game immediately. Fortanutely, playing any of the three Bonjwa cards (iloveoov, NaDa, sAviOr) is very difficult and requires one of each of the four "bonjwa league" cards (1st MSL, 2nd MSL, 3rd MSL, 1st OSL) before it can be played. These cards serve no purpose individually and basically act as wasted space unless the player can gather all 4 and a bonjwa in his hand, so any player who wishes to include the Bonjwa cards in his deck could very easily be making a huge mistake and should consider that choice carefully.
Example Cards (Bonjwa + Bonjwa Title):
Building a Deck
With these five card types in mind, put together a 60 card deck! Remember that you cannot have more than 4 of any single card (Sorry Oz Coach, you cant have only Jaedong!) with the exception of Team Cards, where you'll want about 10-20 of any team card used by the progamers in your deck. I.e. if your deck is mostly Oz with some MBC progamers, you'd want about 14 Oz Energy with 10 MBC Energy. Any leftover space should be filled with Map and Special cards that allow you to gain an advantage over your opponenet. Only include the Bonjwa cards if you have a deck focused around gathering them quickly, or you'll end up losing to a better equipped deck while never getting ahold of all 5 necessary bonjwa cards to win the game.
Here is an example themed deck based on Hwaseung Oz's Jaedong-Heavy Strategy!
Hwaseung Oz: Jaedong Go!
Progamers:
4x n.Die_Jaedong
3x HiyA[fOu]
3x BackHo
3x ggaemo
3x Lomo
3x Young
3x ToSky
Special Cards:
3x Fangirls
2x OSL Group Selection
2x TLPD
Map Cards:
2x Holy World
3x Tears of the Moon
Team Cards:
26x Oz Team Cards
Section 3: Playing the Game
Ok, so now you and your opponent have a deck, some damage counters, and coin for flipping. You are ready to battle it out to determine who built the better team/deck! For refrence here is what the playing field looks like during a game: + Show Spoiler [Playing Field] +
Opening Steps
#1: Both player's shuffle their 60-card deck and draw 7 cards each.
#2 Check to see if you have a basic progamer (not A or S-class) in your 7 card hand. If not, your opponent gets to draw another card (bringing his total to 8) and you must shuffle your hand into your deck and draw a new 7 card hand.
#3 Place one Basic progamer face down in your booth (shown in the above spoiler picture) as your active progamer.
#4 Place up to five basic progamers from your hand to your bench, face down. Remember that a bench can never have more than five progamers on it at one time.
#5 Decide the amount of retirements/knock-outs necessary to win the game. The standard is 6, i.e. you must retire 6 of your opponent's progamers in order to win the match, but a quick match could put it at 4 and a long would be about 7 or 8. It is recommended to stick with 6 as it the most well-balanced for all deck types.
#6 Flip a coin to decide who goes first. Once you have decided this, play begins by flipping your active/bench progamers face-up. Whoever goes first now starts by following the actions outlined in "Your Turn" below..
Your Turn
#1 Draw a card.
#2 Now do any of these in whatever order you want
- Put Basic Progamers from your hand onto any open slot on the bench.
- Upgrade progamers from Basic to A-Class or from A-Class to S-Class. You can do this as many times as you want, but remember you cannot upgrade a progamer on the turn it was place and you cannot upgrade a progamer twice in one turn (i.e. you cannot upgrade your  HoGiL card into YellOw[ArnC] and then into  Leta on the same turn).
-.Attach 1 Team card to 1 of your progamers. (This can be done only once per turn).
- Play Special Cards (as many as you want) and Map cards (only one per turn).
- GG your active progamer by paying the GG cost listed on the card and switching him with one of your benched progamers. This can be done only once per turn (and can be blocked by the KeSPA interference card!)
#3 Attack!
- Check to make sure you have enough team cards attached to your active progamer in order to use your chosen attack.
- Check the Strong and Weak Matchups of your opponent's progamer to determine whether they will resist 2 or take an additional 2 damage from your attack.
- Put damage counters on the opponent's progamer to inidicate each 1 damage they have taken.
- Check to see if your opponent's progamer has been knocked-out / retired (whenever it has run out of stamina, i.e. when # of damage counters = stamina). If it has, put it and all cards attached to it in the Retired pile (discard pile).
#4 Your turn is now over. If either player’s active progamer is Fatigued or Slumping, then perform the required activities (specified in the “Special Conditions” section below) of flipping a coin to determine whether or a Fatigued progamer takes damage or a Slumping progamer snaps out of the slump.
Section 4: Important Information
How do I win?
You win either by knocking out the required number of opposing progamers (generally 6) or by your opponent running out of progamers to play (i.e. if he loses his active progamer and has an empty bench and thus no way to replace him, then you would win even if you havn't knocked out the required number of opposing progamers). Finally, you can also win if your opponent has run out of cards in his deck when he goes to draw his card at the beginning of the turn.
How do Special Conditions work?
Some attacks cause the Defending Progamer to become Fatigued, Slumping, or Choking. These are called "Special Conditions". They cannot happen to a benched progamer - in fact, if a progamer goes to the bench, he loses all special conditions. Additionally, upgrading a progamer from Basic to A-Class or from A-Class to S-Class causes it to lose all current special conditions.
- Choking
If a progamer is choking, you have to flip a coin whenever you try to attack with that progamer; if the coin is tails then the attack does nothing. Turn a choking progamer card with its head facing towards you to identify when it is choking.
A choking progamer can GG to the bench normally, where it loses all Special Conditions.
- Fatigue
If a progamer is fatigued, place a "Fatigue marker" on it to show that it is tired out. For as long as it’s still fatigued, flip a coin after each player’s turn. If tails, place 2 damage counters on it, ignoring Weak/Strong Matchups. If an attack would fatigue a progamer that is already fatigued, it does not get doubly fatigued; instead, the new fatigue condition replaces the old one. Make sure whatever you use for a fatigue marker looks different from a damage counter. A fatigued progamer can GG to the bench normally, where it loses all Special Conditions.
- Slumping
If a progamer is slumping, it cannot attack or GG. As soon as a progamer is in a slump, turn it sideways to show that it is slumping. After each player’s turn, flip a coin. On heads, the progamer snaps out of the slump (turn the card back right-side up), but on tails it is still slumping, and you have to wait until after the next turn to try and snap it out again.
Can you have multiple special conditions at the same time?
No. If you are successfully hit with a new special conditon it simply replaces your current special condition and you continue the game with the negative effects of that one instead of the previous one.
Section 5: The Future
It seems odd to be talking about new cards when I just spent days exhausting myself making the first 112 - but I'm really excited about this project and cant wait to add more cards! Here are whats planned for the future of the Starcraft Proscene Trading Card Game:
#1: Some way to play online! I cant program at all (though my roommate can!) but it would be absolutely excellent to create some program that allows people to construct decks / play online (there already exists many for games like Magic / Pokemon TCG) and i'm sure would lead to plenty of fun times among TL members looking for another fun/friendly/competitive challenge.
#2 eStro and Air Force Ace cards! This for sure is coming as I've already started working on converting eStro and Ace favorites like UpMaGiC and  Anytime into cards. Also cool will be the additional Special/Map cards that I can add with each new expansion (Artosis card for the eStro expansion, anyone?)
#3 BoxeR Bonjwa Card! Its absolutely criminal that BoxeR doesnt exist in the TCG's current form, and with the Air Force ACE expansion I will be sure to add a Bonjwa card for Boxer (as well as four unique "bonjwa path" cards for him as he doesnt fit the same path as the other three).
#4 I'd like to find some way to integreate the top Foreigner gamers into the game as well, possibly by having them act collectively as a "Foreigner Team" with a unique Team card, and be balanced as equal to the Korean pros for the purposes of a fair game. The main problem will be securing good pictures of all of them!
Section 6: Full Card List
S-Class Progamers (1 for Each Team, Bisu counts as both MBC and SKT1)
1 Bisu
2 Effort
3 Flash
4 Jaedong
5 Kal
6 Leta
7 Mind
8 Stork
9 Zero
A-Class Progamers (2 for Each Team)
10 BackHo
11 BeSt
12 Calm
13 Fantasy
14 Firebathero
15 fOrGG
16 Free
17 GGPlay
18 Hiya
19 Horang2
20 Jangbi
21 July
22 Light
23 Luxury
24 Much
25 NaDa
26 Pure
27 Sea
28 Skyhigh
29 YellOw[ArnC]
Basic Progamers (4 For Each Team)
30 BaBy
31 by.Hero
32 Canata
33 Chalrenge
34 PianO
35 Doctor.K
36 FrOzean
37 ggaemo
38 go-go
39 great
40 Guemchi
41 Hoejja
42 HogiL
43 Hwasin
44 Jaehoon
45 Idra
46 iloveoov - Player/Coach
47 GanZi
48 Iris
49 keke
50 Kwanro
51 Lomo
52 Violet
53 Movie
54 MVP
55 oDin
56 Pusan
57 Rock
58 Saint
59 Shark
60 Shine
61 RorO
62 Shuttle
63 Young
64 Tempest
65 Thezerg
66 ToSky
67 Tossgirl
68 type-b
69 yoOn
Special Cards
70 B-Teamer
71 Ceremony
72 Fan Cheerful
73 Fangirls
74 KeSPA Interference
75 Korean Netizens
76 Liquipedia
77 Military Progaming
78 MSL Group Selection
79 OSL Group Selection
80 Poker
81 Poor Coaching
82 Progamer Mouse
83 Starcraft 2 Hype
84 The Path of the Night
85 TLPD
Map Cards
86 Andromeda
87 Destination
88 Holy World
89 Monty Hall
90 Neo Medusa
91 Python
92 Requim
93 Rush Hour 3
94 Tears of the Moon
95 Tiamat
Team Cards
96 CJ Entus
97 Hite Sparkyz
98 Hwaseung Oz
99 KTF MagicNs
100 MBCGame Hero
101 Samsung KHAN
102 SK Telecom T1
103 STX Soul
104 WeMade FOX
105 Woongjin Stars
Bonjwa Cards (Not Numbered)
1st MSL
2nd MSL
3rd MSL
1st OSL
NaDa
iloveoov
sAviOr
And thats it!
Please, even if you dont plan on playing, download the cards and take a look at them! Every card is painstakingly researched and crafted to both be balanced and represent what that progamer is known for, and some are pretty funny to boot! (Stork's "ability" of permanent choking, or Rock's massive damage to himself, for example )
Hopefully you enjoy the game! I had a lot of fun making it and will finally be able to print out a copy and play some games with my friends to test out balance.This is one of the largest non-school projects I've ever worked on, and It really confirmed to myself that I basically love teamliquid and korean progaming! This is truly something I'm passionate about, and here's hoping my roommate and I can rock out on the SC2 beta because of it. Good Luck!
NEW Section 7: User Created Decks
Here are any/all deck ideas submitted by TL-users:
GTR's "Bisu Build" MBC/SKT1
+ Show Spoiler +
Notes
This deck revolves around getting Bisu up as quickly as possible
Progamers (18)
4x Bisu
2x Best
2x Fantasy
2x Sea
2x Light
2x Canata
2x iloveoov
2x Pusan
Special Cards (10)
3x Starcraft 2 Hype
2x OSL Group Selection
3x Liquipedia
2x TLPD
Map Cards (4)
4x Neo Medusa
Team Cards (28)
18x SK Telecom T1
10x MBCgame HERO
LastRomantic's "Unnamed Deck" Oz
+ Show Spoiler +
Notes
I can't reconcile Jaedong healing vs Jaedong +damage. Blehhhh whatever
Progamers (16)
4x Jaedong
4x Light[aLive]
4x By.Baby
2x iloveoov
2x TheRock
Special Cards (16)
4x Ceremony
4x OSL Group Selection
2x Starcraft 2 Hype
4x Path of Night
2x TLPD
Map Cards (4)
4x Holy World
Team Cards (24)
20x Hwaseung Oz
4x WeMade Fox
.
GTR's "1a2a3a" Soul/Fox
+ Show Spoiler +
Notes
This deck is centered on getting up a Bonjwa as fast as possible, while being able to stall enough time on your basics to gather the cards required.
Progamers (15)
4x keke
4x TheRock
3x iloveoov
3x Hwasin
1x Baby
Specials (15)
4x Fangirls
4x Starcraft 2 Hype
3x OSL Group Selection
3x TLPD
1x Cheerful
Energies (15)
5x STX Soul
10x WeMade FOX
Bonjwas (15)
3x MSL 1
3x MSL 2
3x MSL 3
3x OSL 1
1x iloveoov - Bonjwa
1x sAviOr - Bonjwa
1x NaDa - Bonjwa
GTR's "Haymaker" Fox/Soul/Hero/T1
+ Show Spoiler +
Notes
The Haymaker deck archetype was a strong competitor in the early days of the Pokémon Trading Card Game. It was overused due to its ability to often win the game before the opponent could even get their strategy together.
Progamers
3x iloveoov
4x Hwasin
3x Baby
2x Nada
2x Much
2x Light
Specials
3x Starcraft 2 Hype
2x TLPD
1x The Path of Night
2x Ceremony
1x OSL Group Selection
3x Liquipedia
2x Fangirls
Maps
2x Python
4x Tiamat
Team Points
10x WeMade FOX
10x STX Soul
2x SK Telecom T1
2x MBCgame HERO
GTR's "Rain Dance" Oz
+ Show Spoiler +
Notes
This deck is based upon the popular 'Rain Dance' archetype, which where Blastoise's Pokemon Power, Rain Dance, would allow you to apply as many water energy cards in one turn as possible. Key elements which allow this deck to succeed are the element of surprise, the ability to deal damage quickly, and most importantly, getting the necessary cards required out as fast as possible.
Progamers (16)
4x Jaedong (Essential, as it allows you to apply as many Oz cards that you have in one turn).
2x HiyA
2x Light
1x Much
2x iloveoov
4x Baby
1x Lomo
Special (16)
4x Starcraft 2 Hype
3x Ceremony
3x Liquipedia
3x OSL Group Selection
2x TLPD
1x The Path of Night
Map (4)
2x Tears of the Moon
2x Holy World
Team
24x Hwaseung OZ
Sunyveil's "The Red Rock" Fox/Soul
+ Show Spoiler +
Notes
TheRock/Kal combo to stay alive as long as possible, then dish out the damage with July or NaDa
(NOTE: This card is 4 over the 60 card limit and is thus illegal)
Progamers (26)
4x TheRock
2x keke
4x Baby
2x NaDa
3x YoonJoong
3x by.hero
4x July
2x Kal
Special (10)
4x Poor Coaching
4x Starcraft 2 Hype
2x OSL Group Selection
Map (2)
2x Neo Medusa
Team (26)
8x WeMade Fox
18x STX Soul
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Wow, seems awesome. I can't imagine the amount of work that went into making of this. I don't know if printing them out on normal printer paper would do them justice though. Definitely will look into it and see if I can get a friend to play with.
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Fuck. Fuck. Fuck. FUCK.
Now I wish someone lived around me that was into Pro-Gaming. FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Fun Guide. Pokemon with style rawr.
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51449 Posts
ooh, i used to love pokemon tcg on the gameboy.
i will love constructing a deck out of this.
edit: so, the team cards = basically energy cards? this will make constructing mutli-team decks quite hard ;p
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Oh fuck yes!
I love homegrown TCGs. You kick ass sir.
EDIT: Just went through the cards. You've done a really good job.
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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
So tempting to print all these out and make decks - epic stuff. Thanks (Yayy some of my photos got used too.)
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United States20661 Posts
So sick :O
Downloading to check it out immediately.
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United States1865 Posts
On June 14 2009 15:47 aznmathfreak wrote:
Wow, seems awesome. I can't imagine the amount of work that went into making of this. I don't know if printing them out on normal printer paper would do them justice though. Definitely will look into it and see if I can get a friend to play with.
I've been seriously ill for over a week and with no ability to go out or even really play iccup effectively (I was coughing almost 24/7, could barely get to sleep, though I'm much better now) I decided to finally pull out all the notes/ideas I had been floating around about this and get down to serious work on it.
It did indeed take a lot of time
On June 14 2009 15:51 NeverGG wrote:
So tempting to print all these out and make decks - epic stuff. Thanks (Yayy some of my photos got used too.)
Damn! I knew right before I posted that there was something I was forgetting. God I just really really want to thank you for all your amazing photos. So many times whenever I was searching for a photo of a lesser known progamer or of an event like OSL Group Selection I would search for your stuff and find great pics. Really cannot thank you enough for your excellent work.
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United States11390 Posts
On June 14 2009 15:52 Atrioc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2009 15:47 aznmathfreak wrote:
Wow, seems awesome. I can't imagine the amount of work that went into making of this. I don't know if printing them out on normal printer paper would do them justice though. Definitely will look into it and see if I can get a friend to play with. I've been seriously ill for over a week and with no ability to go out or even really play iccup effectively (I was coughing almost 24/7, could barely get to sleep, though I'm much better now) I decided to finally pull out all the notes/ideas I had been floating around about this and get down to serious work on it. It did indeed take a lot of time
Wow, that sucks. 
However, this doesn't suck at all.
Awesomeeeeeeee job.
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51449 Posts
haha i can see all the similarities to the pokemon TCG
MSL Group Selection = Professor Oak
Starcraft 2 Hype = Bill
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Amazing <3
lol I just noticed the bonjwa mechanic is exodia from yugioh
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United States1865 Posts
On June 14 2009 15:55 GTR wrote:
haha i can see all the similarities to the pokemon TCG
MSL Group Selection = Professor Oak
Starcraft 2 Hype = Bill
Haha actually MSL Group Selection is Imposter Professor Oak
OSL Group Seleciton is indeed Professor Oak though.
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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
On June 14 2009 15:52 Atrioc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2009 15:47 aznmathfreak wrote:
Wow, seems awesome. I can't imagine the amount of work that went into making of this. I don't know if printing them out on normal printer paper would do them justice though. Definitely will look into it and see if I can get a friend to play with. I've been seriously ill for over a week and with no ability to go out or even really play iccup effectively (I was coughing almost 24/7, could barely get to sleep, though I'm much better now) I decided to finally pull out all the notes/ideas I had been floating around about this and get down to serious work on it. It did indeed take a lot of time Show nested quote +On June 14 2009 15:51 NeverGG wrote:
So tempting to print all these out and make decks - epic stuff. Thanks (Yayy some of my photos got used too.) Damn! I knew right before I posted that there was something I was forgetting. God I just really really want to thank you for all your amazing photos. So many times whenever I was searching for a photo of a lesser known progamer or of an event like OSL Group Selection I would search for your stuff and find great pics. Really cannot thank you enough for your excellent work.
^_^ No problem. I've had a lot of fun photographing them all and I love it when people use my photos for graphics projects like this.
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FOOL, YOU HAVE ACTIVATED MY TRAP CARD!
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HOLY SHIT, MAKE THIS THING INTERACTIVE AND ONLINE AND I'll PLAY.
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Osaka27149 Posts
Ummm... i think you just got yourself a beta key.
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give this man the beta key!!
one thing: this may not be a concern as of now, but what if people slump/get better later on in the future? would there be "newer versions" of them?
oh, and i'm referring to the real sc world, not the status conditions
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51449 Posts
Alright, hope this is right!
+ Show Spoiler +
Ceremony - Super Potion
Cheerful - Energy Search
Fangirls - Defender
KeSPA Interference - Dunno!
Korean Netizens - Energy Removal
Liquipedia - Pluspower
Military Progaming - Revive
MSL Group Selection - Impostor Professor Oak
OSL Group Selection - Professor Oak
Poker - Gambler
Poor Coaching - Scoop Up
Progamer Equipment - Potion
Starcraft 2 Hype - Bill
The Path of Night - Super Energy Removal
TLPD - Computer Search
:D
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51449 Posts
On June 14 2009 16:01 Solinren wrote:
HOLY SHIT, MAKE THIS THING INTERACTIVE AND ONLINE AND I'll PLAY.
just find an open source attempt of the pokemon trading card game and modify the code so it works with progaming cards.
.... i hope?
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United States1865 Posts
On June 14 2009 16:08 29 fps wrote:
give this man the beta key!!
one thing: this may not be a concern as of now, but what if people slump/get better later on in the future? would there be "newer versions" of them?
oh, and i'm referring to the real sc world, not the status conditions
Yes as long as the card is named differently its fully possible to put in a new version of a progamer who comes out of nowhere to become a top S-Class pro. This also allows for adding old-school top progamers (maybe an Old-School expansion?) who are given stats reflecting their prime capabilties (For example iloveoov in his prime would be an S-class card compared to his current Basic status, and this could be added to the game with no adverse balance effects as long as its treated as a different card).
On June 14 2009 16:08 GTR wrote:Alright, hope this is right! + Show Spoiler +
Ceremony - Super Potion
Cheerful - Energy Search
Fangirls - Defender
KeSPA Interference - Dunno!
Korean Netizens - Energy Removal
Liquipedia - Pluspower
Military Progaming - Revive
MSL Group Selection - Impostor Professor Oak
OSL Group Selection - Professor Oak
Poker - Gambler
Poor Coaching - Scoop Up
Progamer Equipment - Potion
Starcraft 2 Hype - Bill
The Path of Night - Super Energy Removal
TLPD - Computer Search
:D
Haha, 100% correct. KeSPA Interference has no equivalent but I think it will be balanced while still being good/useful enough to put into decks.
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On June 14 2009 16:09 GTR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2009 16:01 Solinren wrote:
HOLY SHIT, MAKE THIS THING INTERACTIVE AND ONLINE AND I'll PLAY. just find an open source attempt of the pokemon trading card game and modify the code so it works with progaming cards. .... i hope?
Yew can deww it. I believe.
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Boxer needs a Bonjwa Card. Sadfase.
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wow, awesome stuff! and i agree that Boxer needs a Bonjwa card
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United States1865 Posts
I mentioned in "The Future" section that a Boxer bonjwa card is defintely in the works for the ACE expansion set, it just wasnt included in these 112 cards because his "Bonjwa" path is totally different from the others (3 MSL 1 OSL). I defintely wouldnt forget Boxer!
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51449 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +Bisu Build This deck revolves around getting Bisu up as quickly as possible
Progamers (18)
4x Bisu
2x Best
2x Fantasy
2x Sea
2x Light
2x Canata
2x iloveoov
2x Pusan
Special Cards (10)
3x Starcraft 2 Hype
2x OSL Group Selection
3x Liquipedia
2x TLPD
Map Cards (4)
4x Neo Medusa
Team Cards (28)
18x SK Telecom T1
10x MBCgame HERO
lolzl
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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51449 Posts
Anyway, gotta figure out which 'progaming event' should associate with these cards that you have missed, they are pretty important in making some powerful decks.
Pokemon Breeder
Pokemon Trader
Full Heal
Gust of Wind
Double Colorless Energy
Item Finder
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51449 Posts
guys
i think i found out how we can take this to a whole new level
http://sourceforge.net/projects/apprentice2/
Apprentice 2.0 is the open source continuation of Apprentice 1.0, a popular tabletop emulation software used to play card games over the Internet and most commonly associated with Magic: The Gathering.
i'm pretty sure we can modify this so it works with the progaming card game.
so who's with me?
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lol, this is awesome. There should be team-specific special cards that go with the theme. and perhapse even player-specific special cards for decks dedicated to getting a certain programmer out.
An Oz-themed deck could use special cards such as Mustachezerg and Piratezerg
I wonder what a "Bisu Build" card would do?
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On June 14 2009 16:33 GTR wrote:guys i think i found out how we can take this to a whole new level http://sourceforge.net/projects/apprentice2/ Show nested quote +Apprentice 2.0 is the open source continuation of Apprentice 1.0, a popular tabletop emulation software used to play card games over the Internet and most commonly associated with Magic: The Gathering. i'm pretty sure we can modify this so it works with the progaming card game. so who's with me?
I'll definately play it. Sorry, I don't know how to code.
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United States1865 Posts
On June 14 2009 16:27 GTR wrote:
Anyway, gotta figure out which 'progaming event' should associate with these cards that you have missed, they are pretty important in making some powerful decks.
Pokemon Breeder
Pokemon Trader
Full Heal
Gust of Wind
Double Colorless Energy
Item Finder
I agree! I already made cards for Double Colorless Energy (Free Agent, basis being this thread), Full Heal (Vacation, with the Lecaf Oz Europe vacation for a picture), Item Finder (Player Commentators, with a pic of Nal_rA as an MBC Game commentator), and Pokemon Trader will be known as "Lineup Change" with the basis being the monthly threads that pop up with each team's additions and subtractions from their current proleague lineup.
Gust of Wind I'm having a bit of trouble with! I have an "Ace Match" card that has the effect of Gust of Wind with the additional effect of having the player using the card also having to switch in a benched progamer with his active. It could allow for some interesting plays but I'm wondering whether to just make it directly Gust of Wind instead.
On June 14 2009 16:24 GTR wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Bisu Build This deck revolves around getting Bisu up as quickly as possible
Progamers (18)
4x Bisu
2x Best
2x Fantasy
2x Sea
2x Light
2x Canata
2x iloveoov
2x Pusan
Special Cards (10)
3x Starcraft 2 Hype
2x OSL Group Selection
3x Liquipedia
2x TLPD
Map Cards (4)
4x Neo Medusa
Team Cards (28)
18x SK Telecom T1
10x MBCgame HERO
lolzl
Hey thanks, haha. I like it!
Added it to the OP in a Player Decks section.
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On June 14 2009 16:33 GTR wrote:guys i think i found out how we can take this to a whole new level http://sourceforge.net/projects/apprentice2/ Show nested quote +Apprentice 2.0 is the open source continuation of Apprentice 1.0, a popular tabletop emulation software used to play card games over the Internet and most commonly associated with Magic: The Gathering. i'm pretty sure we can modify this so it works with the progaming card game. so who's with me?
I'm with you in that I will play SC pokemon with you. I can't help though, sorry.
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wow this is the greatest thing i've ever seen
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propose this to kespa or something, and make big bucks.
great job btw, going to dl this
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United States20661 Posts
I hope I'm doing this right:
+ Show Spoiler +Progamers (16)
4x Jaedong
4x Light[aLive]
4x By.Baby
2x iloveoov
2x TheRock
Special Cards (16)
4x Ceremony
4x OSL Group Selection
2x Starcraft 2 Hype
4x Path of Night
2x TLPD
Map Cards (4)
4x Holy World
Team Cards (24)
20x Hwaseung Oz
4x WeMade Fox
I can't reconcile Jaedong healing vs Jaedong +damage. Blehhhh whatever.
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51449 Posts
oh i nearly forgot
here is your tl.net mirror
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/GTR/StarcraftTradingCardGame.rar
LR
+ Show Spoiler +reminds me of a weak version of the haymaker (a really popular deck back in the day), kind of need a couple of wemade energy cards though (4 should be enough) to take full advantage of rock/baby's skills if you were to get unlucky with the draw
oh atrioc:
I assume the Basic -> A-Class -> S-Class (Stage 1-3 evolutions) require that the player being evolved has to be the same race as the evolvee right? So I wouldn't be able evolve Shark into Fantasy, but it has to be Baby into Fantasy.
or you can make it so it has to be the same race OR from the same team.
so you can do thezerg -> fantasy -> bisu.
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United States20661 Posts
I still can't get over how awesome Baby is in all situations. He's like banned machop except better.
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United States20661 Posts
On June 14 2009 16:50 GTR wrote:LR + Show Spoiler +reminds me of a weak version of the haymaker (a really popular deck back in the day), kind of need a couple of wemade energy cards though (4 should be enough) to take full advantage of rock/baby's skills
Yeah, I was seriously considering splashing 4 WeMade; I should. Thanks.
I feel that more specials would be helpful :x
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51449 Posts
except he can get sniped so badly by a weak zerg with pluspower.
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This is like pokemon TCG with exodia
>_>
But wow, nice job!
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United States1865 Posts
On June 14 2009 16:50 GTR wrote:oh i nearly forgot here is your tl.net mirror http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/GTR/StarcraftTradingCardGame.rarLR + Show Spoiler +reminds me of a weak version of the haymaker (a really popular deck back in the day), kind of need a couple of wemade energy cards though (4 should be enough) to take full advantage of rock/baby's skills oh atrioc: I assume the Basic -> A-Class -> S-Class (Stage 1-3 evolutions) require that the player being evolved has to be the same race as the evolvee right? So I wouldn't be able evolve Shark into Fantasy, but it has to be Baby into Fantasy. or you can make it so it has to be the same race OR from the same team.
Right now there are absolutely no restrictions on Basic -.> A-Class -> S-Class, pending some balance information from people who play it, in an effort to open up decks to more than one team easily.
However, if it is added it would probably be same team only (with Bisu counting as both MBC/SKT1) because making it same race would cripple a lot of teams who dont have an A-Class progamer that matches their S-Class progamer's race.
@LR's Deck
+ Show Spoiler +I agree! I like the deck but also think it should have either a couple of Fox energy or, interestingly, a couple of Andromeda map cards in order to take advantage of all of BaBy/Rock's moves.
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51449 Posts
Alright, another deck.
This one is called '1a2a3a' (in reference to how easy it is to possibly win);
This deck is centered on getting up a Bonjwa as fast as possible, while being able to stall enough time on your basics to gather the cards required.
+ Show Spoiler +
Progamers (15)
4x keke
4x TheRock
3x iloveoov
3x Hwasin
1x Baby
Specials (15)
4x Fangirls
4x Starcraft 2 Hype
3x OSL Group Selection
3x Computer Search
1x Cheerful
Energies (15)
5x STX Soul
10x WeMade FOX
Bonjwas (15)
3x MSL 1
3x MSL 2
3x MSL 3
3x OSL 1
1x iloveoov
1x sAviOr
1x NaDa
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Uhm, are the player cards color coded? For example Terran players have blue background, Protoss players have green, and Zerg have red?
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United States1865 Posts
On June 14 2009 17:14 SilverSkyLark wrote:
Uhm, are the player cards color coded? For example Terran players have blue background, Protoss players have green, and Zerg have red?
Yes indeed!
Each card has a unique "cloud design" background with its color and intensity depending on the progamer's race and class (i.e. S-class terran cards have a more "bright" blue than an A-class or Basic class card)
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YOU FUCKING RULE!!!!
oh man I can't wait to look at the cards
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If I GG my active player, then it doesn't count into the number which is needed for the opponent to win the game?
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On June 14 2009 17:17 Atrioc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2009 17:14 SilverSkyLark wrote:
Uhm, are the player cards color coded? For example Terran players have blue background, Protoss players have green, and Zerg have red? Yes indeed! Each card has a unique "cloud design" background with its color and intensity depending on the progamer's race and class (i.e. S-class terran cards have a more "bright" blue than an A-class or Basic class card)
Wow, just finished looking at the cards and damn! THIS IS EPIC!
O yeah, if ever we can do an online game for this one, can we also use Liquibet/FPL points to buy/sell/trade cards?:p
I saw TheRock's Card, and I think you can do an easy BeSt card..:p
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51449 Posts
On June 14 2009 17:23 freelander wrote:
If I GG my active player, then it doesn't count into the number which is needed for the opponent to win the game?
no, but they keep their damage counters that they have received.
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United States12607 Posts
This is so fucking cool - all of the cards are really clever and thought out...and some of them are hilarious (fangirls). Reading the rules now! Thanks Atrioc!
AAAA lol, FBH's ability sends his opponent into a slump...this is so freaking clever!!!!
OMFG THE KESPA CARD LOL
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ROFL ROFL
I am laughing so loud, Jaedong has this ability "one man team"
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United States1865 Posts
On June 14 2009 17:23 freelander wrote:
If I GG my active player, then it doesn't count into the number which is needed for the opponent to win the game?
Yeah as GTR said, all GG'ing does is move your progamer back to the bench to be replaced by someone else. He keeps his damage counters and attached cards and is still fully "alive", and can be sent out later if need be, so he (or she in the case of ToSsGirL) defeinetly does not count as one of the 6 "retired" progamers your opponenent needs.
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On June 14 2009 16:33 GTR wrote:guys i think i found out how we can take this to a whole new level http://sourceforge.net/projects/apprentice2/ Show nested quote +Apprentice 2.0 is the open source continuation of Apprentice 1.0, a popular tabletop emulation software used to play card games over the Internet and most commonly associated with Magic: The Gathering. i'm pretty sure we can modify this so it works with the progaming card game. so who's with me?
I think you should look into this program:
http://www.magicworkstation.com/overview.php
you shouldn't have to code anything; there should be a feature that lets you enter your own card information, and then other people can download the file.
Obviously the program will not enforce any rules, but you will get to see the cards laid out and you get to move them around and such, and you get to draw from your deck and put cards into a discard pile. It has a decent graphical user interface and easy online play.
If you guys really are interested you should look into it. Or maybe I will look into it myself in a few days if people are interested.
Apprentice should work too but I think MWS has a slightly nicer interface
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51449 Posts
Stock Standard CJ
+ Show Spoiler +
Progamers (18)
4x EffOrt
3x Much
2x SkyHigh
2x Idra
3x Iris
2x Kwanro
2x Movie
Specials (16)
4x Liquipedia
4x Fangirls
2x Starcraft 2 Hype
2x OSL Group Selection
2x TLPD
Energies (26)
26x CJ Entus
Stock Standard KT
+ Show Spoiler +
Progamers (18)
4x Flash
3x Luxury
2x fOrGG
3x Violet
2x Hoejja
2x Shine
2x Tempest
Specials (16)
4x Liquipedia
4x Fangirls
2x Starcraft 2 Hype
2x OSL Group Selection
2x TLPD
Energies (26)
26x KT MagicNs
Stock Standard STX
+ Show Spoiler +
Progamers
4x Kal
3x July
2x Calm
3x Hwasin
2x by.hero
2x YoonJoong
2x Tossgirl
Specials (16)
4x Liquipedia
4x Fangirls
2x Starcraft 2 Hype
2x OSL Group Selection
2x TLPD
Energies
26x STX Soul
Stock Standard hite
+ Show Spoiler +
Progamers
4x Leta
3x YellOw[ArnC]
2x Horang2
3x go.go
2x Hogil
2x type-b
2x Chalrenge
Specials (16)
4x Liquipedia
4x Fangirls
2x Starcraft 2 Hype
2x OSL Group Selection
2x TLPD
Energies
26x hite SPARKYZ
Stock Standard WeMade
+ Show Spoiler +
Progamers
4x Mind
3x Nada
2x Pure
3x TheRock
2x Baby
2x RorO
2x keke
Specials (16)
4x Liquipedia
4x Fangirls
2x Starcraft 2 Hype
2x OSL Group Selection
2x TLPD
Energies
26x WeMade FOX
Stock Standard Samsung
+ Show Spoiler +
Progamers
4x Stork
3x Jangbi
2x Firebathero
3x Great
2x Frozean
2x Odin
2x Yoon
Specials (16)
4x Liquipedia
4x Fangirls
2x Starcraft 2 Hype
2x OSL Group Selection
2x TLPD
Energies
26x Samsung KHAN
Stock Standard Woongjin
+ Show Spoiler +
Progamers
4x ZerO
3x free
2x GGPlay
3x PianO
2x GuemChi
2x MVP
2x Ganzi
Specials (16)
4x Liquipedia
4x Fangirls
2x Starcraft 2 Hype
2x OSL Group Selection
2x TLPD
Energies
26x Woongjin Stars
+ Show Spoiler [Information] +These decks are supposed to not be used straight off, but as a guide to build up a more, powerful/versatile deck centered around a particular team.
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United States11637 Posts
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United States1865 Posts
On June 14 2009 17:32 GTR wrote:Stock Standard CJ+ Show Spoiler +
Progamers (18)
4x EffOrt
3x Much
2x SkyHigh
2x Idra
3x Iris
2x Kwanro
2x Movie
Specials (16)
4x Liquipedia
4x Fangirls
2x Starcraft 2 Hype
2x OSL Group Selection
2x TLPD
Energies (26)
26x CJ Entus
Progamers (18)
4x Flash
3x Luxury
2x fOrGG
3x Violet
2x Hoejja
2x Shine
2x Tempest
Specials (16)
4x Liquipedia
4x Fangirls
2x Starcraft 2 Hype
2x OSL Group Selection
2x TLPD
Energies (26)
26x KT MagicNs
Progamers
Specials (16)
4x Liquipedia
4x Fangirls
2x Starcraft 2 Hype
2x OSL Group Selection
2x TLPD
Energies
Progamers
Specials (16)
4x Liquipedia
4x Fangirls
2x Starcraft 2 Hype
2x OSL Group Selection
2x TLPD
Energies
Progamers
Specials (16)
4x Liquipedia
4x Fangirls
2x Starcraft 2 Hype
2x OSL Group Selection
2x TLPD
Energies
Progamers
Specials (16)
4x Liquipedia
4x Fangirls
2x Starcraft 2 Hype
2x OSL Group Selection
2x TLPD
Energies
Progamers
Specials (16)
4x Liquipedia
4x Fangirls
2x Starcraft 2 Hype
2x OSL Group Selection
2x TLPD
Energies
I think for even a stock/standard deck that doesnt rely on a precise progamer/strategy (which means really no use for most map cards), it would be a good idea to include 2x-4x Python map cards to readily block your opponent from using any tailored map card strategy he has prepared.
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51449 Posts
I added a footnote stating they should be used as a guide and players can mix and match as they require.
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I cant even put into words how awesome this is. Great work Atrioc!
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51449 Posts
On June 14 2009 17:32 Gustav_Wind wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2009 16:33 GTR wrote:guys i think i found out how we can take this to a whole new level http://sourceforge.net/projects/apprentice2/ Apprentice 2.0 is the open source continuation of Apprentice 1.0, a popular tabletop emulation software used to play card games over the Internet and most commonly associated with Magic: The Gathering. i'm pretty sure we can modify this so it works with the progaming card game. so who's with me? I think you should look into this program: http://www.magicworkstation.com/overview.phpyou shouldn't have to code anything; there should be a feature that lets you enter your own card information, and then other people can download the file. Obviously the program will not enforce any rules, but you will get to see the cards laid out and you get to move them around and such, and you get to draw from your deck and put cards into a discard pile. It has a decent graphical user interface and easy online play. If you guys really are interested you should look into it. Or maybe I will look into it myself in a few days if people are interested. Apprentice should work too but I think MWS has a slightly nicer interface
I wonder if there is a way we could edit RedShark, a Pokemon TCG simulator based on Apprentice.
MWS looks pretty complicated to input all the data, play from etc. RedShark seems to be the perfect fit for this project.
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MY DECK:
The Red Rock:
(TheRock/Kal combo to stay alive as long as possible, then dish out the damage with July or NaDa)
4x TheRock
2x keke
4x Baby
2x NaDa
3x YoonJoong
3x by.hero
4x July
2x Kal
4x Poor Coaching
4x Starcraft 2 Hype
2x OSL Group Selection
2x Neo Medusa
8x WeMade Fox
18x STX Soul
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This is amaaaaaazing. I may need to actually look at this in detail.
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This is awesome.
On June 14 2009 17:32 Gustav_Wind wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2009 16:33 GTR wrote:guys i think i found out how we can take this to a whole new level http://sourceforge.net/projects/apprentice2/ Apprentice 2.0 is the open source continuation of Apprentice 1.0, a popular tabletop emulation software used to play card games over the Internet and most commonly associated with Magic: The Gathering. i'm pretty sure we can modify this so it works with the progaming card game. so who's with me? I think you should look into this program: http://www.magicworkstation.com/overview.phpyou shouldn't have to code anything; there should be a feature that lets you enter your own card information, and then other people can download the file. Obviously the program will not enforce any rules, but you will get to see the cards laid out and you get to move them around and such, and you get to draw from your deck and put cards into a discard pile. It has a decent graphical user interface and easy online play. If you guys really are interested you should look into it. Or maybe I will look into it myself in a few days if people are interested. Apprentice should work too but I think MWS has a slightly nicer interface
I'm working on using MWS right now to get the cards showing up.
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Looks cool. Stork is way too weak for a S-class. Should be "flip a coin if whatever Stork is choking". Atm he is not worth it. I love all the progamer specials.
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Bownja cards are like eXodia in YGO
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ANOTHER DECK:
Bonjwa Instawin Imba:
4x TheRock
4x keke
4x Kwanro
4x MSL the First
4x MSL the Second
4x MSL the Third
4x OSL the Final
4x any Bonjwa Card
4x Ceremony
4x OSL Group Selection
4x Starcraft 2 Hype
4x TLPD
4x Progamer Equipment
8x WeMade Fox
imba.
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United States1865 Posts
On June 14 2009 18:18 Sunyveil wrote:
ANOTHER DECK:
Bonjwa Instawin Imba:
4x TheRock
4x keke
4x Kwanro
4x MSL the First
4x MSL the Second
4x MSL the Third
4x OSL the Final
4x any Bonjwa Card
4x Ceremony
4x OSL Group Selection
4x Starcraft 2 Hype
4x TLPD
4x Progamer Equipment
8x WeMade Fox
imba.
OSL Group Selection requires you to discard your whole hand - so I think its usefulness in a Bonjwa-focused deck is pretty nil, you would have to throw away any bonjwa cards you already have in hopes of getting new ones.
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51449 Posts
On June 14 2009 18:23 Atrioc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2009 18:18 Sunyveil wrote:
ANOTHER DECK:
Bonjwa Instawin Imba:
4x TheRock
4x keke
4x Kwanro
4x MSL the First
4x MSL the Second
4x MSL the Third
4x OSL the Final
4x any Bonjwa Card
4x Ceremony
4x OSL Group Selection
4x Starcraft 2 Hype
4x TLPD
4x Progamer Equipment
8x WeMade Fox
imba. OSL Group Selection requires you to discard your whole hand - so I think its usefulness in a Bonjwa-focused deck is pretty nil, you would have to throw away any bonjwa cards you already have in hopes of getting new ones.
I supposed it would be more efficient to have Gambler/Poker, but the problem is that you might run out of cards too fast before Bonjwa comes out.
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holy shit, I am going to give this a try when am back. going to get everyone around me hooked on to it.
Thanks for your work and I hope you win the Beta key
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Wow... I like designing games and am interested in gaming design, and this is a freaking awesome idea. Hats off to Atrioc. You may have to clarify some of the effects on the cards, though.
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On June 14 2009 18:30 GTR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2009 18:23 Atrioc wrote:On June 14 2009 18:18 Sunyveil wrote:
ANOTHER DECK:
Bonjwa Instawin Imba:
4x TheRock
4x keke
4x Kwanro
4x MSL the First
4x MSL the Second
4x MSL the Third
4x OSL the Final
4x any Bonjwa Card
4x Ceremony
4x OSL Group Selection
4x Starcraft 2 Hype
4x TLPD
4x Progamer Equipment
8x WeMade Fox
imba. OSL Group Selection requires you to discard your whole hand - so I think its usefulness in a Bonjwa-focused deck is pretty nil, you would have to throw away any bonjwa cards you already have in hopes of getting new ones. I supposed it would be more efficient to have Gambler/Poker, but the problem is that you might run out of cards too fast before Bonjwa comes out.
wait
you don't play the title cards, and you need to have all of them in your hand at once? OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH ok then scratch this deck
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so what happens if Monty Hall is played, and neither player has any map cards yet?
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Oooone nitpicky detail. The OSL Bonjwa card says "OSL the final title", but for all three Bonjwa the OSL listed is their first one.
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United States1865 Posts
On June 14 2009 18:55 Musoeun wrote:
Oooone nitpicky detail. The OSL Bonjwa card says "OSL the final title", but for all three Bonjwa the OSL listed is their first one.
Thanks for the feedback.
It was meant to signify the final title of each player's Bonjwa run, as outlined in PoP's "The Bonjwa Story" thread here, but I can definitely alter it if it seems unclear.
On June 14 2009 18:53 Sunyveil wrote:
so what happens if Monty Hall is played, and neither player has any map cards yet?
Can you clarify a bit what you think is the problem? I took a look at the Monty Hall card again and didnt see anything about other map cards for either player.
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On June 14 2009 19:01 Atrioc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2009 18:55 Musoeun wrote:
Oooone nitpicky detail. The OSL Bonjwa card says "OSL the final title", but for all three Bonjwa the OSL listed is their first one. Thanks for the feedback. It was meant to signify the final title of each player's Bonjwa run, as outlined in PoP's "The Bonjwa Story" thread here, but I can definitely alter it if it seems unclear.
Ah, no, I see. My fault for not knowing my progaming history better. All clear now.
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Great stuff! You know, someone should print them and sell them on TL!
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Kentor
United States5784 Posts
On June 14 2009 19:03 DragoonPK wrote:
Great stuff! You know, someone should print them and sell them on TL!
lol pretty sure you can't make a profit when you're using pictures that you didn't take :p
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you could totally play someone over a webcam or something.
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All I have to say is wow.
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51449 Posts
Progamer Specials are basically what Pokemon Power's were to the PKMN TCG, right?
More attempts of making decks based on common base set-era archetypes.
The Haymaker
+ Show Spoiler +The HaymakerThe Haymaker deck archetype was a strong competitor in the early days of the Pokémon Trading Card Game. It was overused due to its ability to often win the game before the opponent could even get their strategy together. + Show Spoiler +
Progamers
3x iloveoov
4x Hwasin
3x Baby
2x Nada
2x Much
2x Light
Specials
3x Starcraft 2 Hype
2x TLPD
1x The Path of Night
2x Ceremony
1x OSL Group Selection
3x Liquipedia
2x Fangirls
Maps
2x Python
4x Tiamat
Team Points
10x WeMade FOX
10x STX Soul
2x SK Telecom T1
2x MBCgame HERO
Rain Dance
+ Show Spoiler +Also known as the One Man Army Deck. This deck is based upon the popular 'Rain Dance' archetype, which where Blastoise's Pokemon Power, Rain Dance, would allow you to apply as many water energy cards in one turn as possible. Key elements which allow this deck to succeed are the element of surprise, the ability to deal damage quickly, and most importantly, getting the necessary cards required out as fast as possible. Because some essential cards such as Poke Breeder are not in the game yet, this is not the most powerful deck to use.+ Show Spoiler +Progamers (16)
4x Jaedong (Essential, as it allows you to apply as many Oz cards that you have in one turn).
2x HiyA
2x Light
1x Much
2x iloveoov
4x Baby
1x Lomo
Special (16)
4x Starcraft 2 Hype
3x Ceremony
3x Liquipedia
3x OSL Group Selection
2x TLPD
1x The Path of Night
Map (4)
2x Tears of the Moon
2x Holy World
Team
24x Hwaseung OZ
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the cards are amazing. i can't wait for some way to play them online
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omg i can finally continue my magic the gathering passion from primary school
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Bias against KT much
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Can you upgrade progamers of one team into progamers of a different team? It doesn't appear you've explicitly stated the rule for this. The examples (and common sense, kinda) hint that you can't.
You can also mention that if you have no active or benched progamer on the playing field, you lose.
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Bonjwa seems kinda strong if you just stuff your deck with four of them there's a good chance for auto win.
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Ahh this seems awesome, someone needs to make an online client for this.
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Hey wouldnt this be able to play online on? If u use Magic Workstation, you usually just load magic cards, but load these cards instead and you can make a deck with these cards ?
"magic workstation" is a program where you can build magic decks and then play online with them.
I'm gonna try it
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So many genious little things like Idra having no GG cost. ^_^
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dunno if this has been said or not, but someone convert this to MWS and it would actually be pretty easy to play online against eachother
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This is basically pokemon trading card game except with references to sc lol :D
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On June 14 2009 23:04 dhe95 wrote:
This is basically pokemon trading card game except with references to sc lol :D
+ Exodia 
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I noticed a couple of possible typos. I'm not sure if they are but just checking.
1. Free[gm] - Prefers Bo1: Free deals 20 damage to himself.
2. Horang2 - Low Publicity: Total damage done to Horang2 during your opponent's next turn is reduced by 20.
Are these 2 intentional cuz they seem pretty strange
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I have a stupid question, because it's been years since I played Pokemon - do you discard attached team cards after an attack?
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you could use the program magic workstation to fix issue #1.
built in online/network play i don't know how hard it is to get your own cards in though it shouldn't be too hard.
you will have to make your own theme for the cards or link the pictures to the ingame cards.
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We need someone to make this into an online game so bad lol.
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This is great ! But my eyes can't read the black text on dark purple background and other similarly not contrasting features T.T
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Canada7170 Posts
No time to take a look at this right now, but I can appreciate the amount of effort this takes!
And I can also see why the Pokemon system works a lot better than the old LiquiScoop MTG style cards (although I still love those ones). Playing this with a RNG and IRC wouldn't be too difficult. Each card in your deck would have number 1-60 and each player has access to a list of all the cards. Simply roll the rng every time you draw, and announce your move- citing the serial number of the card. Obviously this relies on an honor system, but if we wanted to hold a tournament or something, simply call in a third person to adjudicate.
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Surprised that you chose to include Bill and Professor Oak, as they're pretty broken.
Also, why is Flash so bad?
Kwanro, Iris, iloveooV seem really good.
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wow this is crazy
Great job
and LOL at grandpatoss: "Much[gm] is permanently fatigued"
Too bad I don't have any rl friends who are starcraft fans to play this with
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GUESS THE ORIGINAL CARD!!!
Bisu: Charizard
Effort: Dragonite
Kal: looks like Alakazam to me
Best: Kangaskan
Calm: Flareon
Firebathero: Ivysaur
Free: Rhydon
GGPlay: Kadabra
Hiya: Poliwhirl?
JulyZerg: Arcanine
Light: Dragonair
Luxury: Magneton
NaDa: Dugtrio
Pure: Rapidash
Skyhigh: Haunter
Yellow: Raticate
Baby: Machop?
Canata: MEWTWO
Piano: Horsea
Doctor.K: Bulbasaur
ggaemo: Mankey
Gogo and Hoejja: Doduo
Hogil and Shine: Nidoran[male]
Hwasin: nerfed Zapdos
Iloveoov: Wigglytuff
Keke: Onix
Kwanro: Hitmonchan
Violet: Charmander
Movie: Poliwag
MVP: Machop
TheRock: Chansey lol
Saint: Staryu
Roro: Pikachu
YoonJoong: Oddish
Thezerg: Ghastly
type-b: Ponyta
Yoon: Rattata
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Holy crap, this actually looks awesome!
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This is amazing! I want to play it now rofl.
It would be so kool if you added a "legendary team" as well to have the old retired and nonactive players. I'm thinking guys like Nal_Ra, Chojja, Garimto, Goodfriend, etc.
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This is really sick dude, major props. I am pretty sure this is beta-key worthy.
*bow to your insane awesomeness and effort*
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United States1865 Posts
On June 14 2009 23:16 o3.power91 wrote:I noticed a couple of possible typos. I'm not sure if they are but just checking. 1. Free[gm] - Prefers Bo1: Free deals 20 damage to himself. 2. Horang2 - Low Publicity: Total damage done to Horang2 during your opponent's next turn is reduced by 20. Are these 2 intentional cuz they seem pretty strange
Unintentional, nice catches that I'll make a note of in the OP (with the fixed card coming ASAP)
Both of those "20"'s should be 2, haha, as it makes no sense for Free to wipe himself out with his attack nor for Horang2 to be effectively invincible.
*edit*
Also after some review/discussion with my roommate I agree that both Stork and Flash are not up to the other S-Class in terms of deck viability especially with their reliance on coin flips, so in the upcoming eStro expansion I will also include stronger versions of both of those cards (still for Khan/Ktf of course).
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This is so cheesy yet so incredibly awesome! Progamer board game coming up next? Maybe maybe?
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BTW, if it's not too late, saving text-over-solid-color (like in your cards) in .jpg format makes them very ugly looking both on-screen and on paper. Saving in .bmp while it is a WIP and then as a .png for the final format usually yields better results. Just letting you know that you can make it look nicer with something that simple if it's not too late n_n (you need to save as .png from a .bmp; doing it from the .jpg does nothing).
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United States1865 Posts
On June 15 2009 03:00 fanatacist wrote:
BTW, if it's not too late, saving text-over-solid-color (like in your cards) in .jpg format makes them very ugly looking both on-screen and on paper. Saving in .bmp while it is a WIP and then as a .png for the final format usually yields better results. Just letting you know that you can make it look nicer with something that simple if it's not too late n_n (you need to save as .png from a .bmp; doing it from the .jpg does nothing).
Its definitely not too late, I have the original .PSD for every card - but I was pretty concerned about file size what with 112 cards that are pretty large pics. Here, for comparison, is the BackHo original saved as a .png and then as a .jpg
+ Show Spoiler [PNG Backho] +
+ Show Spoiler [JPG Backho] +
I didnt know if the difference was noticable enough to justify the increase in file size, but I think based on your suggestion (plus the need for me to update the Free and Horang2 cards) it would be a good idea to create a "hi-res" pack with all .PNG and updated cards.
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HOLY CRAP... if any of the stupid sex guides win over this i call shinanigans.
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Holy crap this is awesome.
Except for one fact, and that's that you didn't include Boxer in the bonjwa list
I understand why of course.... he didn't follow the normal bonjwa path of msl/osl titles so you wouldn't be able to have that card setup
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On June 15 2009 02:42 Atrioc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2009 23:16 o3.power91 wrote:I noticed a couple of possible typos. I'm not sure if they are but just checking. 1. Free[gm] - Prefers Bo1: Free deals 20 damage to himself. 2. Horang2 - Low Publicity: Total damage done to Horang2 during your opponent's next turn is reduced by 20. Are these 2 intentional cuz they seem pretty strange Unintentional, nice catches that I'll make a note of in the OP (with the fixed card coming ASAP) Both of those "20"'s should be 2, haha, as it makes no sense for Free to wipe himself out with his attack nor for Horang2 to be effectively invincible. *edit* Also after some review/discussion with my roommate I agree that both Stork and Flash are not up to the other S-Class in terms of deck viability especially with their reliance on coin flips, so in the upcoming eStro expansion I will also include stronger versions of both of those cards (still for Khan/Ktf of course).
I'll be looking forward to the expansion. Btw, is Nada's one man team attack effect intentionally doing 10 damage to each bench progamer? Or would that be 1
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On June 15 2009 02:33 Sunyveil wrote:GUESS THE ORIGINAL CARD!!! + Show Spoiler +Bisu: Charizard
Effort: Dragonite
Kal: looks like Alakazam to me
Best: Kangaskan
Calm: Flareon
Firebathero: Ivysaur
Free: Rhydon
GGPlay: Kadabra
Hiya: Poliwhirl?
JulyZerg: Arcanine
Light: Dragonair
Luxury: Magneton
NaDa: Dugtrio
Pure: Rapidash
Skyhigh: Haunter
Yellow: Raticate
Baby: Machop?
Canata: MEWTWO
Piano: Horsea
Doctor.K: Bulbasaur
ggaemo: Mankey
Gogo and Hoejja: Doduo
Hogil and Shine: Nidoran[male]
Hwasin: nerfed Zapdos
Iloveoov: Wigglytuff
Keke: Onix
Kwanro: Hitmonchan
Violet: Charmander
Movie: Poliwag
MVP: Machop
TheRock: Chansey lol
Saint: Staryu
Roro: Pikachu
YoonJoong: Oddish
Thezerg: Ghastly
type-b: Ponyta
Yoon: Rattata
Jaedong: Blastoise (the effect at least i think)
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Definately just won two beta keys from this, progamer TCG is so epic.
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On June 15 2009 03:13 Atrioc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2009 03:00 fanatacist wrote:
BTW, if it's not too late, saving text-over-solid-color (like in your cards) in .jpg format makes them very ugly looking both on-screen and on paper. Saving in .bmp while it is a WIP and then as a .png for the final format usually yields better results. Just letting you know that you can make it look nicer with something that simple if it's not too late n_n (you need to save as .png from a .bmp; doing it from the .jpg does nothing). Its definitely not too late, I have the original .PSD for every card - but I was pretty concerned about file size what with 112 cards that are pretty large pics. Here, for comparison, is the BackHo original saved as a .png and then as a .jpg + Show Spoiler [PNG Backho] ++ Show Spoiler [JPG Backho] +I didnt know if the difference was noticable enough to justify the increase in file size, but I think based on your suggestion (plus the need for me to update the Free and Horang2 cards) it would be a good idea to create a "hi-res" pack with all .PNG and updated cards.
It's worse on some cards than others (black on purple/red worse than green iirc but I didn't look through magnifying glass to make sure), and I think making it an option is definitely a good idea because printed cards look SO much better in .png, it eliminates that fuzzy pixelated shit that is so evident on paper in .jpg.
Also, if I may make a suggestion, IdrA considers TvT to be his weakest MU, and I don't know if you are going by reputation/claim to fame or statistics or ELO in other player MU's (Bisu's PvP % > his PvZ but his PvZ is his claim to fame, for example), so I don't know what other suggestions to make.
Like I said before though, this is REALLY sick. At first I didn't even understand that you made all the cards yourself, I thought it was just a guide to playing, but upon reading further I was like "oh... shit... o_o." MAJOR props, as a contestant in the beta key guide thing I still wish you the best of luck and really hope you get a key.
EDIT: The only reason I brought up the .png thing wasn't to bust your chops but I am an MSPaint user so I am a stickler about stuff like that xD sorry.
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WOW THIS LOOKS CRAZY COOL
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goddamnit, just when I thought I was over my collectible gaming habit you come out with this
good job sir
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OMG, this is the most epic game involving SC that's not SC itself besides the creation of mystarcraft, ONLY CREATED BY OUR EPIC FELLOW TLER!
Win! I can already see it now..... beta-key.... woot!
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16986 Posts
Hahaha win. I totally hope you get the betakey :D
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I don't see how you won't get the beta key. Epicness.
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oh god this is ridiculously cool! Give this man a beta key
lol also funny how most terrans are weak against protoss, protoss are weak against zerg etc 
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This needs to be seen by Korean Netizens
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awsome
excellent work Atrioc
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is awesome32274 Posts
Great! I had something like this in mind, but never could work it out...
:D
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Based on Pokemon TCG? YES! Although if Khan is under powered you'll see me back in this thread to bitch in a few minutes.
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Btw, I've never played the Pokeman TCG so how does the bench and stuff work?
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Awesome work.
A bit too lazy to make a serious deck at the moment, but Canata + 59 Energies might work, if you don't have any Team card removals. Still reading through the cards though.
Somebody, please, make this into an online game. xD
You deserve the beta key. o.o
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this game sounds so awesome
DLing right focking now.
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I think Idra's GG cost should be 4 because he's so reluctant to do it...
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Do you have an excel file with all the card information in columns? I'm working on making a plugin with LackeyCCG, which is an open CCG playing tool that allows you to create your own games. If you can send me a file like this:
+ Show Spoiler +
and we can work out hosting of the images individually on TL rather than in an archive, we can make playing this online a reality.
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there should be 5 lives per team! =O
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On June 15 2009 05:38 ReketSomething wrote:
there should be 5 lives per team! =O
Just choose to play with 5 prizes then...? o.O
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Progamers (19)
4 The Rock (P) (WeMade)
4 YoonJoong (P) (STX)
4 JulyZerg (Z) (STX)
3 Kal (P) (STX)
4 keke (Z) (WeMade)
Special (15)
4 Poor Coaching
4 TLPD
3 Starcraft 2 Hype
4 The Path of the Night
Map (1)
1 Tiamat
Team Cards (25)
20 STX Soul
5 WeMade Fox
Here's a Damage Swap deck I just made. It is inspired from the Pokemon TCG deck that used Alakazam and Chansey to stall the game out and go for the kill when attacking with Chansey was profitable. This Starcraft incarnation uses the STX team with a WeMade splash to recreate the deck from yesteryear. TheRock takes the role of Chansey and soaks up damage, Kal is you Neo Alakazam transferring damage around. July surprisingly is a BEAST, soaks up damage and hits hard. Yoonjoong acts as 4 more copies of Tiamat searching me the map I thought worked best for this deck. Keke is the closest thing to Mr. Mime I could fine. Acts more like Onix (which was mentioned earlier) a big body that soaks up damage which acts as a nice alternative for TheRock.
The rest of the deck is all the good specials. Card draw and search and a bit of removal litter the deck and Poor Coaching seems more like a Great Move when you use it on TheRock with 10 damage.
This really deserves a Beta Key. It really brought me back to my TCG days playing Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, Magic, and professionally in Vs. System. Thanks for this!
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Canada7170 Posts
On June 15 2009 05:38 LTT wrote:Do you have an excel file with all the card information in columns? I'm working on making a plugin with LackeyCCG, which is an open CCG playing tool that allows you to create your own games. If you can send me a file like this: + Show Spoiler +and we can work out hosting of the images individually on TL rather than in an archive, we can make playing this online a reality.
.....and THIS is why I love TL. We make things a reality.
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haha, i was considered one of the top tier of deck strategists/makers during the prime of the pokemon TCG (before the next-gen ruleset that capped trainer use), it would be a crime for me to not participate in this.
brb making mine.
edit: lots of foreseeable balance problems (if you're actually serious about making this balanced you can pm me)
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Holy shit, make it happen guys. This is gonna be epic. Me and my girlfriend still play pokemon cards, and this system is almost identical.
Atrioc.. I think I love you. :O
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United States1865 Posts
On June 15 2009 05:38 LTT wrote:Do you have an excel file with all the card information in columns? I'm working on making a plugin with LackeyCCG, which is an open CCG playing tool that allows you to create your own games. If you can send me a file like this: + Show Spoiler +and we can work out hosting of the images individually on TL rather than in an archive, we can make playing this online a reality.
Awesome!
I do indeed have an excel file simliar to that - but give me some time to add in columns for card text, moves strong/weak MU, etc. As of now its more of an organizational tool for me with card number/team/name/stamina/class, but I can make it into a full fledged compedium of all card data.
It would be really excellent if this worked out to be able to play online.
haha, i was considered one of the top tier of deck strategists/makers during the prime of the pokemon TCG (before the next-gen ruleset that capped trainer use), it would be a crime for me to not participate in this.
brb making mine.
edit: lots of foreseeable balance problems (if you're actually serious about making this balanced you can pm me) Last edit: 2009-06-15 06:01:21
Impressive credentials, I defeinitely would like to hear your input on balance! Please shoot me a PM with any issues you run into with certain cards/stratagies. I'm currently working on the eStro expansion set with the hopes that it can smooth out any gaps in the current balance framework.
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On June 15 2009 06:00 PanoRaMa wrote:
haha, i was considered one of the top tier of deck strategists/makers during the prime of the pokemon TCG (before the next-gen ruleset that capped trainer use), it would be a crime for me to not participate in this.
brb making mine.
Haha I remember beating everybody in my neighborhood with my Rain Dance deck, I was a little too competitive for them. They played just for fun, I went to weekly tournaments where I got pummeled by 13 year olds because I didn't have 4 Pokemon Breeders.
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Yo man, Atrioc,
Check out this card redesign.
Text was hard to read.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Damn i wish i had someone willing to play with me hahaha.
There are a few typos, like 16_Free doing 20 damage to himself D: but overall it's amazing. Are there gonna be expansions lolol.
edit: It would be awesome if there were those little blurbs like they have in pokemon describing the progamer or whatever.
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United States1865 Posts
On June 15 2009 06:04 unsoundlogic wrote:
Damn i wish i had someone willing to play with me hahaha.
There are a few typos, like 16_Free doing 20 damage to himself D: but overall it's amazing. Are there gonna be expansions lolol
Free, Horang2, and NaDa all have typos involving a 0 after the actual number that really screw them up balance wise (luckily all negatively so they arent overpowered just underpowered), but they will be fixed in the eStro expansion set (yes there are expansions!)
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Black text on brown back.
That won't look to hot on print.
Inks bleed and print dark.
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United States1865 Posts
On June 15 2009 06:10 Trozz wrote:
Black text on brown back.
That won't look to hot on print.
Inks bleed and print dark.
Wait for the hi-res .png version.
I'll see about brightening the "base" colors beneath the text if that will have a noticable improvement in the print quality.
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This guide contest has had such epic results. I really hope this things get online!
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Just to add to the list of errors, Ganzi's attack has no attack power. This doesn't for a minute take away from the excellent work you did here. Good work!
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On June 15 2009 06:03 Trozz wrote:Yo man, Atrioc, Check out this card redesign. Text was hard to read. + Show Spoiler +
oooh pretty
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On June 15 2009 05:53 d1sh0ng wrote:
Progamers (19)
4 The Rock (P) (WeMade)
4 YoonJoong (P) (STX)
4 JulyZerg (Z) (STX)
3 Kal (P) (STX)
4 keke (Z) (WeMade)
Special (15)
4 Poor Coaching
4 TLPD
3 Starcraft 2 Hype
4 The Path of the Night
Map (1)
1 Tiamat
Team Cards (25)
20 STX Soul
5 WeMade Fox
Here's a Damage Swap deck I just made. It is inspired from the Pokemon TCG deck that used Alakazam and Chansey to stall the game out and go for the kill when attacking with Chansey was profitable. This Starcraft incarnation uses the STX team with a WeMade splash to recreate the deck from yesteryear. TheRock takes the role of Chansey and soaks up damage, Kal is you Neo Alakazam transferring damage around. July surprisingly is a BEAST, soaks up damage and hits hard. Yoonjoong acts as 4 more copies of Tiamat searching me the map I thought worked best for this deck. Keke is the closest thing to Mr. Mime I could fine. Acts more like Onix (which was mentioned earlier) a big body that soaks up damage which acts as a nice alternative for TheRock.
The rest of the deck is all the good specials. Card draw and search and a bit of removal litter the deck and Poor Coaching seems more like a Great Move when you use it on TheRock with 10 damage.
This really deserves a Beta Key. It really brought me back to my TCG days playing Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, Magic, and professionally in Vs. System. Thanks for this!
yeah this is pretty much exactly like mine
-_-
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On June 15 2009 05:14 Chau wrote:
Awesome work.
A bit too lazy to make a serious deck at the moment, but Canata + 59 Energies might work, if you don't have any Team card removals. Still reading through the cards though.
Somebody, please, make this into an online game. xD
You deserve the beta key. o.o
Yeah, that seems pretty broken. You could get around it with The Path of The Night (the team card removal you were wondering about), and maybe a few other ways, but yeah.
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Ooh I loved running Damage Swap, but the tournaments I went to always had time limits which made it impossible to win by stalling.
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On June 15 2009 06:03 Trozz wrote:Yo man, Atrioc, Check out this card redesign. Text was hard to read. + Show Spoiler +
That is one sexy card. All it needs is a black border and rounded edges XD
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i must say you put an assload of work into all this the time it took to make this must have been ridiculous i really hope you get a beta key friend this is pretty cool
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On June 15 2009 06:27 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2009 05:14 Chau wrote:
Awesome work.
A bit too lazy to make a serious deck at the moment, but Canata + 59 Energies might work, if you don't have any Team card removals. Still reading through the cards though.
Somebody, please, make this into an online game. xD
You deserve the beta key. o.o Yeah, that seems pretty broken. You could get around it with The Path of The Night (the team card removal you were wondering about), and maybe a few other ways, but yeah.
one Path of the Night stops that deck cold.
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On June 15 2009 06:32 Sunyveil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2009 06:27 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On June 15 2009 05:14 Chau wrote:
Awesome work.
A bit too lazy to make a serious deck at the moment, but Canata + 59 Energies might work, if you don't have any Team card removals. Still reading through the cards though.
Somebody, please, make this into an online game. xD
You deserve the beta key. o.o Yeah, that seems pretty broken. You could get around it with The Path of The Night (the team card removal you were wondering about), and maybe a few other ways, but yeah. one Path of the Night stops that deck cold.
Simply just change the ruling for mulligans so that opponent can choose 1, or zero cards. If the first few rounds actually DONT go well for the one playing against the Canata build, then as long as the opponent has trainers or players that have an action that includes shuffling back into the deck, then there's no chance for the canata build to win. it's a stupid build that only wastes time .
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
How come I haven't seen this thread earlier.
Man, those are some sexy cards; I've just downloaded them, gonna update my post in few minutes
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I'm currently creating a MWS MasterDatabase, I am through the S and A Class progamers right now. The rest should be quicker.
With MWS you can play online against each other!
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On June 15 2009 06:35 PanoRaMa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2009 06:32 Sunyveil wrote:On June 15 2009 06:27 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On June 15 2009 05:14 Chau wrote:
Awesome work.
A bit too lazy to make a serious deck at the moment, but Canata + 59 Energies might work, if you don't have any Team card removals. Still reading through the cards though.
Somebody, please, make this into an online game. xD
You deserve the beta key. o.o Yeah, that seems pretty broken. You could get around it with The Path of The Night (the team card removal you were wondering about), and maybe a few other ways, but yeah. one Path of the Night stops that deck cold. Simply just change the ruling for mulligans so that opponent can choose 1, or zero cards. If the first few rounds actually DONT go well for the one playing against the Canata build, then as long as the opponent has trainers or players that have an action that includes shuffling back into the deck, then there's no chance for the canata build to win. it's a stupid build that only wastes time .
also there can be a rule if no damage is dealt either way for 5 turns it's a draw?
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Damn just finished looking through them all and i must say that was a great read. This is by far the most deserving of the two betakeys.
I never really played pokemon TCG so i never really learned about the decks and such but im defenatly going to make my first card deck out of these :D
Just an idea, what about including coach cards later on? Im not sure how this would work but it could be like giving a bonus to players from a certain team? like make Oov a coach with the abilty "playing coach" or something. Anyway, just an idea.
Also the card design by Trozz is really badass, the current card types look ok but arent really that awesome.
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51449 Posts
On June 15 2009 06:35 PanoRaMa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2009 06:32 Sunyveil wrote:On June 15 2009 06:27 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:On June 15 2009 05:14 Chau wrote:
Awesome work.
A bit too lazy to make a serious deck at the moment, but Canata + 59 Energies might work, if you don't have any Team card removals. Still reading through the cards though.
Somebody, please, make this into an online game. xD
You deserve the beta key. o.o Yeah, that seems pretty broken. You could get around it with The Path of The Night (the team card removal you were wondering about), and maybe a few other ways, but yeah. one Path of the Night stops that deck cold. Simply just change the ruling for mulligans so that opponent can choose 1, or zero cards. If the first few rounds actually DONT go well for the one playing against the Canata build, then as long as the opponent has trainers or players that have an action that includes shuffling back into the deck, then there's no chance for the canata build to win. it's a stupid build that only wastes time .
just one knockout is all you need
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This looks awesome, will dl soon. +1 to giving this man a beta key
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Idra needs to be way stronger. I thought these cards were based on actual skill level?
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Will any magic the gathering transfer over here? I was pretty good back in da day, played a necro-deck at un restricted and elves in stnadard when I stopped.
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On June 15 2009 07:00 MoRe_mInErAls wrote:Also add sAviOr please
me like!
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Ok as of the first build by Atrioc this is what I have. This build can only get better once Double-Colorless Energies are implemented if ever, and is also assuming the evolution line runs based on race and not team. Foreseeable weaknesses include a weak early game but it's offset by the fact that Oov is tier 1 instead of tier 2, which is just nuts (prob the lack of DCE compensates for this?). I can one-shot Bisu with Oov and a full bench, I think I'd have the hardest time with Jaedong builds (NO weaknesses, really??), but it depends on how the guy plays it. Conservation issues are solved by the arena, but I still can't wait for Nightly Garbage Run and Item Finder equivalents which would completely solve ANY conservation issues whatsoever.
Counting Stars v1.0
by PanoRaMa
Players [15]
4x ILoveOov [Opener]
3x Kwanro[saM] [Setup]
3x JulyZerg [Damage]
2x Hwasin [Opener]
2x by.Hero [Setup]
1x Calm [Situational Tech]
Specials [30]
4x OSL Group Selection [Production (Oak)]
4x StarCraft 2 Hype [Production (Bill)]
4x TLPD [Production (CS)]
4x Liquipedia [Situational (PP)]
4x Korean Netizens [Disruption (ER)]
4x Poor Coaching [Conservation (SU)]
4x KeSPA Interference [Disruption (Pseudo-GoW)]
2x Monty Hall [Conservation (Arena)]
Team Cards [15]
15x STX
The single Calm acts as a situational tech for when my July is status affected (and I need to pull off a big attack that turn) or needs to retreat (since July's retreat is 3 and Calm's is 1). For all intents and purposes, July is >>> Calm. I'd have to wait til an apprentice-like online thing is released to really see if this is viable or not (given that there is no NGR yet), if it isn't then I'm replacing it with 1 more STX.
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this is sick man!...so this is why the long awaited next episode of hwaseung house never came...
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Sweeeeeeeeeet
Make this happen :D :D :D
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holy shit man.
this is fuckin awesome gotta play this right away lol
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are we suppose to print these cards out?
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Very creative. I think this is my favorite so far.
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Katowice25012 Posts
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Waw, this is great. I am certainly going to try playing this. However, it should be implemented into a program.
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On June 15 2009 06:41 Celial wrote:
I'm currently creating a MWS MasterDatabase, I am through the S and A Class progamers right now. The rest should be quicker.
With MWS you can play online against each other!
wow dude if this works you are the fuckin man
artioc too ofc
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Starcraft II hype (Bill in pokemon) is too good. There's really no reason not to run the maximum number allowed.
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United States1865 Posts
Haha this is exciting.
Been in contact with LTT about the conversion into an online mutliplayer program which looks to be entirely possible and acheivable soon!
Here are the current ideas for the back/flipside art for the cards, using the excellent TL T-shirt logo and possibly the TL horses.
+ Show Spoiler [Idea #1] +
+ Show Spoiler [Idea #2] +
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definitely the 1st
the horses def. make it more interesting
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There is no boxer, in which case this game has no meaning to meee! >:O
But srsly gj :D
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Before you print these,
You've gotta fix the contrast.
Prints turn out too dark.
For the back picture,
Your second one looks awesome.
I'll be watching this.
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what are you guys printing this on? normal white paper? wtf :x
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Nah, thats way too light.
Print on heavier paper.
It's more durable.
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On June 15 2009 12:09 PanoRaMa wrote:
what are you guys printing this on? normal white paper? wtf :x
We will play these online!:D
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yeah i was wondering why people were even bothering to print all these out and play them, it'd make for an awful game if you had homemade cards haha
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Wow, just read through this thing, pretty sick, cudos on all the work u put into it props man
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It IS possible to run these on a forum. Just have a third person as a ref, submit the decks to them, and use a random number generator to deal cards.
It'd be a lot of work for the ref, for no reward though... =s
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For one, the above post is NOT the way to run a deck-simulation. It would take about a few days to get a simple Java app up and running to build and practice decks, but having user interface would take awhile. Using Magic Workstation is the winning plan.
On that note, we should get a teamliquid server setup on it.
And this man deserves all the beta keys.
Sidenote: As a once Pro MTG player... I can safely say that there are actually 2 nigh unbeatable decks in the current environment. Sigh. And yes... I am qualified to make that decision, it took about 4 seconds to pick out ridiculous strategies.
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GL to all who are trying to internetize this! I would be so down for playing it.
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I really hope you get like 40 beta keys for the epic amount of work you put into these and the guide outlining play amazing job Atrioc 
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dude mad props to you, Atrioc.
This is just nuts
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This is so insane. Get it playable online asap.
Well done, Atrioc. Enjoy the beta!
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lol i just downloaded the game boy colour pokemon trading card game onto my ds, going to use that as practice
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Dude...Andromeda seems like a card that can be fun to make broken >_<
Here's my deck
+ Show Spoiler +
Gamers(20):
4 ForGG
4 iloveoov
4 Iris
4 Kwanro
4 Tempest
Map(4):
4 Andromeda
Special(14)
4 Starcraft 2 Hype
3 Liquidpedia
3 TLPD
4 OSL Group Selection
Energies(22)
12 CJ
10 KTF
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Why no Boxer !!!???
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Sorry guys it became really late yesterday so i haven't continued. Going to work on the database now.
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I never played such card games but this is just epic! Thx!
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ill probably never get around to playing it, but it warms my heart by just existing :D
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From my TCG experience I have a strong feeling that Jaedong-dance.dec will be quite overpowered without Gust of Wind. Haymaker doesn't really have a way to win without that and Double Colorless Energy... and there doesn't really seem to be any way to make a sponge deck. Still this is freaking awesome!
Whenever the expansion comes out, please add some way to deal with Oz.
July's new name for me: ArcanineZerg : D
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On June 15 2009 12:53 Sleight wrote:
For one, the above post is NOT the way to run a deck-simulation. It would take about a few days to get a simple Java app up and running to build and practice decks, but having user interface would take awhile. Using Magic Workstation is the winning plan.
On that note, we should get a teamliquid server setup on it.
And this man deserves all the beta keys.
Sidenote: As a once Pro MTG player... I can safely say that there are actually 2 nigh unbeatable decks in the current environment. Sigh. And yes... I am qualified to make that decision, it took about 4 seconds to pick out ridiculous strategies.
Also, just curious Sleight, but what deck do you think can beat Oz with the TLPD+OSL engine? I'm guessing Bonjwa...
Gambling with mages never is.
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For one, don't call it Oak+CS, that's pokemon and oblique. You are referring to TLPD and OSL, I believe. The cards are unreal. But I haven't seen an Oz deck worth anything. Deck list? So far, I can safely say I have seen no deck actually pick out the easy winning strategies. The 2 lists Ive built should lead to 1 card being banned and 1 getting errata'd.
Again. Please stop referring to Pokemon names, the game is a joke. This is based off pokemon, but, hopefully, it will end up much more dynamic. It is not in fact, pokemon, largely because of the increased random element and the fact that there isn't the same Rock-Paper-Scissors style of setup. Actual play skill will matter given the ungodly low power level of most of the cards and the lack of outlets for otherwise powerful engines.
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This is bloody awesome! Win! :D
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How come people aren't running 4x Fan Cheerfuls in every deck? Replacing 4 team cards with 4 Fan Cheerfuls is basically a strict improvement...
On June 16 2009 01:05 Sleight wrote:
For one, don't call it Oak+CS, that's pokemon and oblique. You are referring to TLPD and OSL, I believe. The cards are unreal. But I haven't seen an Oz deck worth anything. Deck list? So far, I can safely say I have seen no deck actually pick out the easy winning strategies. The 2 lists Ive built should lead to 1 card being banned and 1 getting errata'd.
Again. Please stop referring to Pokemon names, the game is a joke. This is based off pokemon, but, hopefully, it will end up much more dynamic. It is not in fact, pokemon, largely because of the increased random element and the fact that there isn't the same Rock-Paper-Scissors style of setup. Actual play skill will matter given the ungodly low power level of most of the cards and the lack of outlets for otherwise powerful engines.
Iris/iloveoov/Kwanro + Andromeda haymaker? With TLPD, OSL, and SC2 Hype it should be easy to fill up your bench and have Iris and iloveoov do massive amounts of damage.
Jaedong/Korean Netizens/Path of Night team denial? Once Jaedong is active, Path of Night is devastating. Light could be good in the deck but I'm not sure. Also not sure what the main damage-dealer would be.
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Wow i didnt even see Iris on my first look through. Yeah I was thinking Oov as tier 1 is just ridiculous as you completely bypass the weakness of having to open with a weak basic.
I was also thinking the sheer speed of Oov will be able to compensate for Oz builds simply cuz there are no equivalents of breeders right now meaning they couldn't get the Oz going by round 2. Like I said before, it'll depend largely on how the Oz decks are being used, whether or not Jaedong is the actual active player or not (haven't really looked to see if there were any other strong Oz players). The KeSPA Interference is going to be huge and is what I'm assuming replaces GoW.
Sleight, why don't you just tell us what the imba deck is? If anything it'll contribute towards balancing, it's not like withholding this information is going to lead to get you anything. Also the lack of "otherwise powerful engines" probably has to do with the fact that this is a 105-card set. At the moment it's pretty much following more or less the same metagame flow as the original TCG, with it coming down to a few viable decks based on speed alone. Expansions brought a lot of depth once the concept of locking down as a form of disruption was introduced, obsoleting some archetypes, buffering some, and creating new. I can't speak for how it is once they started introducing more than the original 150 because that's around when I stopped, but until then (Neo set I believe?) the competitive scene wasn't so much RPS but rather understanding the metagame and adjusting to it as best as possible.
But you seem to have a good idea about the original TCG, were you on the Pojo or original pokegym boards?
Edit: One thing that should be mentioned though is that they introduced statistical variance to a great deal in the original card game (which is reflected here). Flipping coins is an awful way to go about a skill game, and imo should be limited as much as possible. There's already enough variance associated with "good draws" ;x.
On June 16 2009 03:56 Gustav_Wind wrote:
How come people aren't running 4x Fan Cheerfuls in every deck? Replacing 4 team cards with 4 Fan Cheerfuls is basically a strict improvement...
If there ever comes a time when Specials can be locked down via a Progamer Special or a Map, etc. these sorts of Specials will be worthless. Prob the short answer for now is, removing 4 Team Cards from your deck makes you too low-econ for lack of better word (especially in the environment right now wherein the Specials selection is narrow and so most likely everyone will be running forms of Team Card disruption in their deck), and is not made up for the benefit of being able to search your deck for free.
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First of all, I'd like to get a really clear ruling on Tempest. MapHax.dec seems like it might be a little scary right now. For example, can I choose to disable only part of a map's effect, like just disabling Andromeda's -1 attack power function, but leaving on the extra Team Energy?
If Neo-Medusa is out, can playing tempest potential retire an opposing Progamer? What if I also have a progamer that would be retired by 'disabling' the map momentarily? Can I create a two-turn map lock on Python with Tempest? Would I need to if I can disable the map any time I want?
And how do things work if there are two opposing Tempests out (dear God, please don't let KTF clone him)?
Anyways, as long as maps aren't giving you problems, it shouldn't be too challenging without a Gust of Wind or Warp Point (way to force a benched Tempest into the booth) to lock maps out, so there's really no need to use them aside from gaining an even greater advantage for yourself, which hopefully your deck should inherently have since your opponent has dead cards in his Maps.
Here is the decklist I'm currently building to test:
+ Show Spoiler +
Jaedong the Wizard of Oz
21 Progamers:
S-class: 4
4x n.die.Jaedong
A-class: 6
2x Light
2x Nada
1x Hiya
1x Jangbi
Upgradable Basic: 8
3x Tempest
1x Baby
4x By-Great
Non-upgradable Basics: 3
3x Iloveoov
Special: 18
4 OSL Selection
4 TLPD
2 Korean Netizens
3 Path of the Night
2 Liquipedia
3 KeSPA interference
Team Cards: 21
21 OZ Team
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Team Card Economy might be a little low, but hopefully denial won't be prevalent enough that it will be a problem. If denial gets to be too serious a problem, I'll probably cut some more Basics and Liquipedia. Liquipedia-type cards have not served me as well as I would often like in other card games. Also there doesn't seem to be as much of a well-defined crucial breakpoint (70 hp in Pokemon, for example) for damage that needs to be dealt. With no forced bench swapping effects, Liquipedia also seems to lose a little of its appeal.
Further, a deck that doesn't realistically see many opportunities for turn 1 insta-win "Cheesing" (such as Piano attacking an opposing iloveoov turn 1 with 2 liquipedias for an instant game win) doesn't really need the option. Since this is kind of an unknown metagame and all, however, I think 2 is fine for now :D
Also, I'd like to highlight the fact that I think just the branching 'evolution' trees is enough to make this game much different from the pokemon scene was. Play will probably be much more elaborate thanks to a much tighter weakness system as well.
Also, to answer why not everyone should use 4x Fan Cheerfuls, its because, ironically enough, the fact that the card selection is so good means that frequently players will want specific single cards in their deck to select for specific situations. When you only have sixty slots in your deck and you need to maximize your techs, economy, card selection engine, and instantaneous effects, you can very easily run out of space. Cheerfuls only give you a small bonus to your engine at the cost of precious slots.
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United States1865 Posts
On June 16 2009 06:08 SirKibbleX wrote:First of all, I'd like to get a really clear ruling on Tempest. MapHax.dec seems like it might be a little scary right now. For example, can I choose to disable only part of a map's effect, like just disabling Andromeda's -1 attack power function, but leaving on the extra Team Energy? If Neo-Medusa is out, can playing tempest potential retire an opposing Progamer? What if I also have a progamer that would be retired by 'disabling' the map momentarily? Can I create a two-turn map lock on Python with Tempest? Would I need to if I can disable the map any time I want? And how do things work if there are two opposing Tempests out (dear God, please don't let KTF clone him)? Anyways, as long as maps aren't giving you problems, it shouldn't be too challenging without a Gust of Wind or Warp Point (way to force a benched Tempest into the booth) to lock maps out, so there's really no need to use them aside from gaining an even greater advantage for yourself, which hopefully your deck should inherently have since your opponent has dead cards in his Maps. Here is the decklist I'm currently building to test: + Show Spoiler +
Jaedong the Wizard of Oz
22 Progamers:
S-class: 4
4x n.die.Jaedong
A-class: 6
2x Light
2x Nada
1x Hiya
1x Jangbi
Upgradable Basic: 8
3x Tempest
1x Baby
4x By-Great
Non-upgradable Basics: 4
3x Iloveoov
Special: 18
4 OSL Selection
4 TLPD
2 Korean Netizens
3 Path of the Night
2 Liquipedia
3 KeSPA interference
Team Cards: 21
21 OZ Team
-------------------------------------------
Team Card Economy might be a little low, but hopefully denial won't be prevalent enough that it will be a problem. If denial gets to be too serious a problem, I'll probably cut some more Basics and Liquipedia. Liquipedia-type cards have not served me as well as I would often like in other card games. Also there doesn't seem to be as much of a well-defined crucial breakpoint (70 hp in Pokemon, for example) for damage that needs to be dealt. With no forced bench swapping effects, Liquipedia also seems to lose a little of its appeal.
Further, a deck that doesn't realistically see many opportunities for turn 1 insta-win "Cheesing" doesn't really need the option.
Also, I'd like to highlight the fact that I think just the branching 'evolution' trees is enough to make this game much different from the pokemon scene was. Play will probably be much more elaborate thanks to a much tighter weakness system as well. Also, to answer why not everyone should use 4x Fan Cheerfuls, its because, ironically enough, the fact that the card selection is so good means that frequently players will want specific single cards in their deck to select for specific situations. When you only have sixty slots in your deck and you need to maximize your techs, economy, card selection engine, and instantaneous effects, you can very easily run out of space. Cheerfuls only give you a small bonus to your engine at the cost of precious slots.
To clarify on Tempest's progamer ability (I will update the wording in the eStro expansion set): You can only disregard the map card as a whole, not any individual parts of it - meaning it basically does nothing for map cards like Andromeda where you had a choice to use it anyway. Its real intended purpose, and this will be its new wording, is to block any extra damage your opponent would receive from map cards when attacking your progamers. (As of now this would only apply to Tiamat/Tears of the Moon, but there will be more map cards like those in the future, increasing Tempest's potential)
*edit*
and I have to say "Jaedong the Wizard of Oz" is the best deck title name ever.
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On June 15 2009 06:03 Trozz wrote:Yo man, Atrioc, Check out this card redesign. Text was hard to read. + Show Spoiler +
Just thought I'd bring more attention to this redesigned template, possibly for use in the future versions or something!
Every time trozz posts
I think I pee just a bit.
Kibble loves this stuff.
If you need any help balancing, Atrioc, I have a lot of experience with TCGs including Magic (Onslaught on), Star Wars, Pokemon TCG (pre-Neo Genesis), Magi Nation, and Pokemon (post Diamond and Pearl: Secret Wonders) and I'd be willing to consult/test things/brainstorm.
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I am not posting the imbalanced deck for a number of reasons. For one, I'm embarrassed at people's idea of deck building and strategic thinking and I don't do favors for randoms. For two, I want to talk to the creator himself first. Because y'all are gonna knee jerk and not listen to rational arguments about how to deal with the issues.
My TCG background started right after pokemon got competitive and I made 700 over the first few months, and switched to MTG where i made 20 grand over around 3 years on my Limited playskill and some breakthroughs in Extended and Standard. I have since moved on to poker.
Anyways... The fact is this. There is no good in me giving away how to break the format when it should be nixed immediately. The conversation needs to be between people with real backgrounds in TCG and Atrioc, because ultimately it is his baby and his say is important, on principle.
I will give props to the Iris deck, its far and away the least dismal build idea posted thus far.
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OMG youre so cool omg 20k playing games no way
i prob have more experience than you in ptcg AND poker keeping in mind I played the TCG when I was 10-12 years old. quit it with the retarded condescending attitude, god forbid you actually try to contribute to a constructive conversation w/o acting high and mighty.
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On June 16 2009 07:45 Sleight wrote:
<self fellatio>
cool story bro
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Nice set of Progamer Cards, I wonder how long did it take to finish this deck.
A few concerns about some of the cards as they are too broken, and gives the controller too big of a hand advantage to abuse when played. Also, I think we need a good variety of maps, and a map searching card. We might have to wait until future sets and a ban list are created in order to balance this game, and hopefully this game could be a success.
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Sigh.
Someone asked my background, I gave it. Stop being children. I've been in touch with Atrioc and thoroughly explained the issues at hand. Your responses are exactly why I am not going over why your decks to this point have been weak and why this game needs a very quick fix before we try to get going with it.
On June 16 2009 07:52 PanoRaMa wrote:
i prob have more experience than you in ptcg AND poker keeping in mind I played the TCG when I was 10-12 years old. quit it with the retarded condescending attitude, god forbid you actually try to contribute to a constructive conversation w/o acting high and mighty.
Yes you probably do have more experience as a 10-12 year old Pokemaster! Which makes you 16 or so I think. Note the part where I played it for a few months and moved on to a more competitive card game with international competition and serious prize money.
I am sure you are an unbelievable card gamer. Absolutely incredible. I'll speak to you with the reverence you deserve.
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Everything I've said was a direct response to your trollish post. You mentioned people with real backgrounds, I'm not some MTG pro like you but if I don't have the "experience" or "background" then no one here likely does. Like I mentioned, I played it very seriously when I was young as hell (and no I'm not even close to 16), but I was still able to keep up with some of the more renowned players at the time. I asked your pokegym/pojo background, not about your MTG awesomeness. I'm sure you ARE good at what you do and most likely better than me in the field of pokemon/MTG, but it's no reason to start being a condescending dick. If THESE types of responses are the reason why you don't like to respond and contribute to this thread then you're being the kid.
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I really don't see what kind of lockdown you see given the current set list that I don't see. The format favors control, and there's no true combo deck possible given the frame rules, so I think Jaedong.dec (see my post on page 11) is the ideal play, since it pretty much breaks the game's one rule of tempo, and Iris pretty much just eats a Path of the Night.
I mean if we've had Patrick Chapin or Kai Budde or Jon Finkel on the site this whole time and I didn't know about I'd be pretty surprised.
Anyways, obvious troll is obvious, etc. Even if we didn't question your credentials, I think you at least owe Atrioc some suggestions to start the conversation about what you think could improve the game.
My opinion? I think Jaedong + Team card denial is an unbalanced strategy given the fact that he cannot be easily 'sniped' if you will, and can easily prevent any Progamer with an attack that costs more than 1 energy from ever attacking. With this situation, there's no need for KeSPA Interference. Here's some ways to remedy what I think might be an unbalanced deck:
-I think the first step should be a way to lock Pro Powers, either a special that can be played to lock a power for a turn, or a Map effect (since the errata about Tempest said it only affects damage from maps), but definitely not something recursive and unanswerable.
-A Progamer with an _attack_ that allows them to accelerate Team cards onto their teammates or themselves, from the retired pile, for example, might allow for some better long-term control game plan against the OZnslaught, which will expend its deck rather rapidly. You could balance this by not creating many recursive Specials (Itemfinder, Nightly Garbage Run).
-For dedicated, more traditional-style decks, definitely include some cards like Lass or Rocket's Sneak Attack. I wouldn't include something exactly like RSA though unless you had to discard 2 as an additional cost to play it or something. Sometimes stranding someone off of an TLPD or OSL Selection might be game-breaking.
-Sturdier Progamers, or possibly more widespread use of status effects, directly implemented onto otherwise-useful attacks.
Hope this helps!
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Some questions about the rules of this game:
Are you actually not allowed to go above 60 cards in your deck in this game?
Does the person who plays first get to attack on the first turn? Does he draw a card on the first turn?
Are you allowed to mulligan whenever you want, or only when you don't have a Basic Progamer?
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United States20661 Posts
I'd just like to note that this entire site is based on people doing favors to randoms.
Nobody is doubting your competitive resume, but your supercilious attitude makes it hard to treat you seriously.
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On June 16 2009 08:55 Gustav_Wind wrote:
Some questions about the rules of this game:
Are you actually not allowed to go above 60 cards in your deck in this game?
Does the person who plays first get to attack on the first turn? Does he draw a card on the first turn?
Are you allowed to mulligan whenever you want, or only when you don't have a Basic Progamer?
Assuming we're adhering to pokemon TCG rules for this which is likely:
1. 60 max, no more no less
2. I think this first turn ruling was changed when the entire play format was changed (I quit before these new rules were implemented), but if we're talking about how it was played the first few years, then yeah first player gets to draw and attack, which made for possible FTKOs with certain basics (Erika's Jiggly I think?) and whoring out your deck til you find plus powers.
3. Only if you don't have a Basic in your hand (in which you'd have to show your hand to your opponent). You can't just keep redrawing til you find a perfect draw
Edit: Well said, LR.
Kribble: Yeah good points, I mentioned earlier that with expansions will come newer opportunities. Remember the Rocket expansion? That alone fueled years of locking/trapping archetypes, great times. I personally love those and it was probably where I exceled most in, but I'd imagine it'd be incredibly tough for just Atrioc to implement all the tools himself without hurting balance too much. This is pretty exciting, it's like starting the pokemon TCG all over again and reading up on japanese translations of future sets, etc haha
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United States1865 Posts
Just to clear the air here with everyone - Sleight did actually give some really helpful advice about the TCG, most notably the flaw in the iloveoov card (as it was written) that allowed you to use it to get another iloveoov, play that to get another iloveoov, etc. The rewrite will specify "any terran progamer other than "Iloveoov - Player/Coach". Though I agree that there is no reason for kind of attitude or superiority - this isnt a pro tournament TCG, just a (hopefully!) fun community game that everyone can enjoy/discuss.
On June 16 2009 08:55 Gustav_Wind wrote:
Some questions about the rules of this game:
Are you actually not allowed to go above 60 cards in your deck in this game?
Does the person who plays first get to attack on the first turn? Does he draw a card on the first turn?
Are you allowed to mulligan whenever you want, or only when you don't have a Basic Progamer?
1. Yeah, 60 cards is the exact amount you must have you in your deck. No more, no less.
2. Yes the person who goes first can both attack and draw on the first turn.
3. No, you have no choice on when you mulligan. Its only with your first 7 cards, and only if you dont have a basic progamer, and if you do it your opponent can draw an extra card if they want. This means you want to have at least 7 basic progamers (preferably more) in your deck to have basic odds of getting one in your first draw.
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On June 16 2009 09:10 Atrioc wrote:Just to clear the air here with everyone - Sleight did actually give some really helpful advice about the TCG, most notably the flaw in the iloveoov card (as it was written) that allowed you to use it to get another iloveoov, play that to get another iloveoov, etc. The rewrite will specify "any terran progamer other than "Iloveoov - Player/Coach". Though I agree that there is no reason for kind of attitude or superiority - this isnt a pro tournament TCG, just a (hopefully!) fun community game that everyone can enjoy/discuss. Show nested quote +On June 16 2009 08:55 Gustav_Wind wrote:
Some questions about the rules of this game:
Are you actually not allowed to go above 60 cards in your deck in this game?
Does the person who plays first get to attack on the first turn? Does he draw a card on the first turn?
Are you allowed to mulligan whenever you want, or only when you don't have a Basic Progamer? 1. Yeah, 60 cards is the exact amount you must have you in your deck. No more, no less. 2. Yes the person who goes first can both attack and draw on the first turn. 3. No, you have no choice on when you mulligan. Its only with your first 7 cards, and only if you dont have a basic progamer, and if you do it your opponent can draw an extra card if they want. This means you want to have at least 7 basic progamers (preferably more) in your deck to have basic odds of getting one in your first draw.
Doesn't that make going first a huge advantage and strictly better? Magic at least tries to mitigate it by having the first turn player not draw, and I think in Yugioh the first turn player can't attack.
I asked about mulliganing because it seems like games where you have to keep a 1 basic hand and just die would happen sometimes.
Also I feel dumb for missing the iloveoov exploit. it is fairly obvious in hindsight... I knew he was really good but I didn't realize how good =P
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Not sure how it worked in practice in those 2 games but in pokemon it was just a natural hurdle that you'd have to learn to deal with (for one, having a strong basic selection so that you can start with a basic that can not only take hits but also swing momentum back for you on YOUR turn, a Basic Set example would be Electabuzz who has high hp and can paralyze with 1 energy).
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Actually I thought about chaining oovs, but you probably haven't played Pokemon since about the time of Neo Genesis, sleight, when Gust of Wind rotated out, bench spaces became very, very precious.
Because there were so many effective techs, they were more important to keep clear. And once a guy got knocked out, you always wanted a counter-attacker to chain-revenge kill whoever came out. Furthermore, getting more basic Progamers isn't really actually much of an advantage at all, when you're playing the TLPD/OSL Selection engine, playing out basics becomes more of a necessity and not a problem. Team Cards are the only form of tempo in this game. Playtest a bit against my Jaedong deck and then come tell me how 'broken' and 'degenerate' Oov + Iris is. I'm not trying to boast, I'm just trying to point out the central tenets of the game so better development can occur.
Besides, I would want to use my oovs (I will probably see one or two in my first three turns when I go through half my library off of TLPD+OSL Selection) to select a TvX Specialist A rank Progamer as "situational" tech. Against whatever my opponent's primary threat currently is.
I think its very important to not allow the player going first to use trainers during his or her first turn. getting the first Team attach, first evolution, and first opportunity to bench Progamers from his hand is enough of an advantage as it is.
Still it might be interesting to apply the "Legend Rule" from M:tG somehow to make a more flavorful game.
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On June 16 2009 09:35 SirKibbleX wrote:
Actually I thought about chaining oovs, but you probably haven't played Pokemon since about the time of Neo Genesis, sleight, when Gust of Wind rotated out, bench spaces became very, very precious.
Because there were so many effective techs, they were more important to keep clear. And once a guy got knocked out, you always wanted a counter-attacker to chain-revenge kill whoever came out. Furthermore, getting more basic Progamers isn't really actually much of an advantage at all, when you're playing the TLPD/OSL Selection engine, playing out basics becomes more of a necessity and not a problem. Team Cards are the only form of tempo in this game. Playtest a bit against my Jaedong deck and then come tell me how 'broken' and 'degenerate' Oov + Iris is. I'm not trying to boast, I'm just trying to point out the central tenets of the game so better development can occur.
Besides, I would want to use my oovs (I will probably see one or two in my first three turns when I go through half my library off of TLPD+OSL Selection) to select a TvX Specialist A rank Progamer as "situational" tech. Against whatever my opponent's primary threat currently is.
Still it might be interesting to apply the "Legend Rule" from M:tG somehow to make a more flavorful game.
Just curious, how are you playtesting at this point? Are you playing against yourself or just goldfishing? Do you have a working game interface already?
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This is one of the coolest contributions to the community EVER. There obviously can't be perfect balance at this stage, but I think with continuing support this can really be refined and expanded upon. Awesome work.
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United States10328 Posts
does free really do 20 damage to himself? should it be 2?
and nada kills everyone (almost; 10 damage?) on your own bench? T__T
LOL name change on doctor.k and frozean
also why are some of the s-class gamers worse than A-class :O. like flash and stork and zero are pretty unfortunate... whoa stork and zero have 0 gg cost. ok maybe they're not worse 1v1, but... hmm. ktf is pretty weak.
haha idra!
LOL rock. and january. and python. oh man so good. also, still KT(F)?
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My enthusiasm here is being somewhat dampened by the realization that I will never win a game. I've not done more CGing than a little Magic before (never had the money), and as a result I am totally out of my league.
Doesn't mean I'm not going to try it though.
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United States20661 Posts
The Legend Rule actually seems appropriate. I mean OZ doesn't have Moustachezerg and Piratezerg no matter how much they'd like to.
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Just curious, how are you playtesting at this point? Are you playing against yourself or just goldfishing? Do you have a working game interface already?
Nothing quite as glorious as that would be, unfortunately. I just have a bunch of friends around who still play pre-Neo Genesis Pokemon for fun. Usually we make house rules like "no Oak, limit 2 CS." They thought it sounded like a pretty fun idea so we all printed off some cards yesterday and played a whole bunch today, mostly just rebuilds of Pokemon-style decks with newer trees and cooler techs. I think I like this game a lot better.
I personally think that not having Gust is the biggest difference, as the game focuses more on defense than offense. Without a way to reuse retired cards (Item Finder) it becomes more difficult to keep the draw engine going (honestly, this is a good thing!), but you can still generally draw 20+ cards on the first turn, and easily find 3 of 4 Liquipedias to enable first-turn kills occasionally, if your opening match up is good.
The thing I must insist on most is ensuring that the player who goes first cannot use trainers. This eliminates the possibility that player one can 'go off' and search his whole deck for all his liquipedia and get 'cheese' win while his opponent is holding a god-hand. At least as long as player one has a chance to go, he can lay additional Progamers (to get oovs comes-into-play ability, for example), and develop his board. When player two goes, they will be able to use trainers immediately, though hopefully player 1 has had an opportunity to minimize the chances of a 'cheese' win (by GGing from a bad matchup, for example).
On June 16 2009 11:21 Musoeun wrote:
My enthusiasm here is being somewhat dampened by the realization that I will never win a game. I've not done more CGing than a little Magic before (never had the money), and as a result I am totally out of my league.
Doesn't mean I'm not going to try it though.
Really, since you won't have to buy cards or anything, you will be able to build exactly the deck you want. I have a feeling that this set gives players a lot of wiggle room even still to innovate, at least within the framework of a few archetypes. Atrioc you're very popular with my friends right now :D
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There a way to play this online?
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United States1865 Posts
On June 16 2009 12:00 SirKibbleX wrote:Show nested quote +Just curious, how are you playtesting at this point? Are you playing against yourself or just goldfishing? Do you have a working game interface already? Nothing quite as glorious as that would be, unfortunately. I just have a bunch of friends around who still play pre-Neo Genesis Pokemon for fun. Usually we make house rules like "no Oak, limit 2 CS." They thought it sounded like a pretty fun idea so we all printed off some cards yesterday and played a whole bunch today, mostly just rebuilds of Pokemon-style decks with newer trees and cooler techs. I think I like this game a lot better. I personally think that not having Gust is the biggest difference, as the game focuses more on defense than offense. Without a way to reuse retired cards (Item Finder) it becomes more difficult to keep the draw engine going (honestly, this is a good thing!), but you can still generally draw 20+ cards on the first turn, and easily find 3 of 4 Liquipedias to enable first-turn kills occasionally, if your opening match up is good. The thing I must insist on most is ensuring that the player who goes first cannot use trainers. This eliminates the possibility that player one can 'go off' and search his whole deck for all his liquipedia and get 'cheese' win while his opponent is holding a god-hand. At least as long as player one has a chance to go, he can lay additional Progamers (to get oovs comes-into-play ability, for example), and develop his board. When player two goes, they will be able to use trainers immediately, though hopefully player 1 has had an opportunity to minimize the chances of a 'cheese' win (by GGing from a bad matchup, for example). Show nested quote +On June 16 2009 11:21 Musoeun wrote:
My enthusiasm here is being somewhat dampened by the realization that I will never win a game. I've not done more CGing than a little Magic before (never had the money), and as a result I am totally out of my league.
Doesn't mean I'm not going to try it though. Really, since you won't have to buy cards or anything, you will be able to build exactly the deck you want. I have a feeling that this set gives players a lot of wiggle room even still to innovate, at least within the framework of a few archetypes. Atrioc you're very popular with my friends right now :D
Wow this is really awesome !
I am super honored that you guys actually played and enjoyed it, haha, and I will 100% take into account your balance suggestions - the "no special cards on first turn" sounds perfectly logical I'll update it into the OP once the contest is over (I'm pretty sure there is a rule that I cant update my guide after the deadline or risk being disqualified).
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Atrioc, will you consider making different versions of the same progamer in the future? For example, Savior or oov at their prime? Kinda like the gym leader versions of different Pokemon (Correct me if I'm wrong here, I didn't really play much of Pokemon TCG). You could call it the "Legends" expansion set or something.
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United States1865 Posts
On June 16 2009 13:18 I8PP wrote:
Atrioc, will you consider making different versions of the same progamer in the future? For example, Savior or oov at their prime? Kinda like the gym leader versions of different Pokemon (Correct me if I'm wrong here, I didn't really play much of Pokemon TCG). You could call it the "Legends" expansion set or something.
Absolutely - the opportunities are too enticing to have cards like Nal_Ra, prime sAviOr, Boxer, Garimto, even Grrrr.. that it would be crazy not to allow versions of a progamer from a different era.
"Legends" expansion is actually a pretty great title, too. Right now though, I'm only working on the eStro expansion and hi-res typo-fixed versions of all the original cards.
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So I've already talked to Atrioc and I'll just post the list. He agreed to change enough so the format has a chance of being fair.
4 Savior
16 MSL 1-3, OSL 1
4 TLPD
4 SCII Hype
4 OSL Selection
4 Fan
4 Ganzi
4 MVP
4 Baby
4 Oov
8 Woonjin Energy
The deck averages a turn 2-3 kill. The reason everyone else's decks were so much weaker than necessary is that all should have 4 Fan, 4 Ganzi, 4 TLPD, 4 OSL, and 4 SCII hype. If you have any background playing MTG T1 combo or old extended combo decks, you'll generate be able to always kill by turn 3 with few exceptions. Turn 1 ganzi has never not led to a turn 3 or sooner win. Oov for Oov for Oov for Oov for Ganzi thins your deck by 4 additional cards. I checked and typically you will see 24 cards by the end of turn 1 and 40 by turn 2.
See why I was skeptical at how good decks based around turn 3 might be? Even if you are only a mediocre combo player, the deck still goes off by then with little effort. The only answer is for everyone to play the same engine with MSL selection in it and cast it on turn 2 before a turn 3 win. Some format that would be...
EDIT: Forgot to point out that Ganzi is hands down the best card in the format currently.
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all guides.... bow down to ur master...
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Yeah figured you had your Tendrils Perfect Storm deck built Wow Ganzi really is the trick to breaking the deck, though! I briefly tested it without Ganzi and figured it was capable, though inconsistent, of achieving a guaranteed win. Given that Pokemon was previously most often a best-of-one game I figured a deck like this wouldn't be able compete since it is inconsistent, even given the amazing drawing engines available. Search for TLPD with Ganzi, tutor for the win though is pretty clutch. Maybe this is the 'knee-jerk reaction' you were worried about, but I think something needs to be done.
Honestly I think the Bonjwa mechanic is a little lame though, without any real 'combos' to enable a guaranteed instantaneous win, as with the similar mechanic in YGO. I don't know which would be better to cut, Ganzi or Bonjwa mechanic though.
By himself, Ganzi is not inherently broken, as in the later developments of Pokemon, the value of using an attack opportunity has risen greatly. So using an attack to acquire a Special isn't really broken when he will most likely be killed on your next turn. Unless of course that attack allows you to win by comboing out.
Lets take this to PM
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HonestTea
5007 Posts
NNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDDDDSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!
*runs away*
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51449 Posts
I'm pretty sure there will be an in-house rule/agreement between the players that Bonjwa cards will not be allowed.
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Baa?21243 Posts
This seems like it's gonna be preeeeeetty awesome.
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MTG it reminds me of too..
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On June 16 2009 16:07 GTR wrote:
I'm pretty sure there will be an in-house rule/agreement between the players that Bonjwa cards will not be allowed.
You could limit all the Bonjwa cards to 1 each, as was done in Yu-Gi-Oh. It's not exactly the best solution if you want to keep the Bonjwa cards in the game, but it's a start.
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There is a free online application for magic the gathering called Magic Workstation that you could use to easily turn this into an online game. The link is below:
http://www.magicworkstation.com/
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United States8476 Posts
Neo haymaker/bench deck
+ Show Spoiler +
This is similar to the sneasel decks that came out when snesasel was released in around the 5th expansion. It tries to load up your bench as fast as possible and then attack with extremely powerful bench-based attacks. This deck was considered the new school haymaker.
Players(14)
4x Ilove00v
4x Iris
4x Kwanro
2x Ganzi
Specials(29)
4x OSL Group Selection
4x Starcraft II Hype
4x TLPD
4x Liquidpedia
3x The Path of the Night
2x Korean Netizens
3x Poor Coaching
3x Kespa Interference
2x Rush Hour III
Team Cards(17)
11x CJ Entus
6x Wonjin Stars
By the way, most people unfamiliar with pokemond TCG don't realize that all successful decks should have around 1/2 specials.
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Atrioc you are really the man, your work on this game rocks... such a great idea, but the cards (in a look way really did not like me)... but thats just a minimal part. I see that people is giving their own models of cards so during the proleagues games of tonight I work on a Card taking the MTG base of a Futureship card... this is an example (took alot of tie do the template for the card but now with that is only modify the text and the images).
+ Show Spoiler +
If you like it I could help you to make anothers =D
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The Bonjwa cards are terrible, we don't need to nerf them. Ganzi is inherently tooooooooo good if you can use his ability turn 1, which is hopefully the fix in store. It doesn't matter that he goes and gets the win directly or just digs out card drawing, whoever gets his Ganzi active is going to win regardless if he plays tight. Something as simple as Oov for Ganzi, Ganzi for Poor Coaching, Poor Coaching on Oov before he dies WILL win the game with tight play. This game is currently closer to Magic than Pokemon due to weakness of Tier 3 and overpowered Basics.
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On June 16 2009 15:11 Sleight wrote:4 Savior
16 MSL 1-3, OSL 1
4 TLPD
4 SCII Hype
4 OSL Selection
4 Fan
4 Ganzi
4 MVP
4 Baby
4 Oov
8 Woonjin Energy
Why do you have Baby in this deck? Since I imagine that you aren't even going to try attacking with him, it seems like it would be substantially more productive to have another random player with a retreat cost of 0 to get Ganzi online faster. It really shouldn't matter whether or not Oov can search for the second blank, since it's impossible for all four Ganzis and all four MVPs to be in the starting hand anyways, but even so Saint, idra, or Lomo would be a better choice. Otherwise Young, thezerg, Hoejja, etc. still seem superior.
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What's the second winning strategy that you mentioned?
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Baby is there because you need to have a basic and you don't want to have to play Oov into the booth, though he should be GoGo. He NEEDS 5 stamina because plenty of guys deal 2 each time or deal 2 and they could be your weak match. In case of a poor draw, you want to make sure Ganzi isn't exposed before you have at least another card. You'd rather play Gogo in the box turn 1, then play Oov for oov ad nauseum for Ganzi and put an Energy on Ganzi. Then you can immeditately GG Gogo/MVP and bring out Ganzi. Also, there are no other cards more useful than a basic with zero/cheap GG cost. I jsut missed Gogo.
My bad.
The 2nd list will be forth coming once Atrioc updates the cards. It's pointless because the above list is just the flat out best deck period. This format however is already obsolete.
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MTG ruined my life . >.>
For those asking how to play, you can just print it out and use it on sleeves on other tcg decks u have, if not sleeves are pretty cheap and useful anyway.
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My samsung deck yo !
+ Show Spoiler +BloodyC0bbler Samsung Khan
Progamers (17)
3x stork
3x jangbi
3x firebathero
2x great
2x odin
2x Frozean
2x yoon
Special cards(17)
2x B-teamer
2x Ceremony
2x TLPD
2x The path of the night
1x Starcraft II hype
2x Progamer equipment
1x OSL group selection
1x MSL group selection
2x Kespa Interference
2x Fangirls
Maps(6)
2x Tiamat
2x neo Medusa
2x tears of the moon
Team cards (20)
20x Samsung Khan
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i hope this doesnt replace bw..... it has a good chance to anyway
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Excuse me for not reading the thread comments but is there any info on an online version of this game?
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Wow. Wow holy shit, this is amazing. Seriously, this is one of the coolest things I've ever seen... if anyone... ANYONE... can make this into a program to play online with other TL members, do it. I'll send you money through paypal, and I'm sure lots of other people would too.
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A few people have said that they are working on a version for Magic Workstation. Hopefully we'll get some updates from them soon...
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This is fucking awesome. If I can contribute just a bit, if you load the cards into a mtg workstation, you can actually use a server to play this online if people want to play this against each other. MTG Workstation is the name guys.
P.a. I fucking love you.
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United States1865 Posts
I'm almost done with a complete Excel spreadsheet catalouge of all current data on the "Base Set" 112 cards, that should be make it much much easier for people who are converting this online. It has the entire card text, name, type, race, weak/strong matchups, etc.
+ Show Spoiler [sneakpeak] +
I should have up for download tomorrow! Hopefully this will make it easier for those guys who are working on making a playable online version.
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we should hold a tournament!
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I 'm pretty sure I can help/get started on mtg wkstation. I did a bit of work on that project and used to use it all the time. Pm me if someone wants me to help.
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On June 17 2009 07:49 Sleight wrote:
Baby is there because you need to have a basic and you don't want to have to play Oov into the booth, though he should be GoGo. He NEEDS 5 stamina because plenty of guys deal 2 each time or deal 2 and they could be your weak match. In case of a poor draw, you want to make sure Ganzi isn't exposed before you have at least another card. You'd rather play Gogo in the box turn 1, then play Oov for oov ad nauseum for Ganzi and put an Energy on Ganzi. Then you can immeditately GG Gogo/MVP and bring out Ganzi. Also, there are no other cards more useful than a basic with zero/cheap GG cost. I jsut missed Gogo.
My bad.
The 2nd list will be forth coming once Atrioc updates the cards. It's pointless because the above list is just the flat out best deck period. This format however is already obsolete.
There are a few flaws with your argument.
The first is pretty clear, in that the second basic does not need 5 stamina. In respect to statistics, the cards are all self-contained, which means that a stamina of 4 is more than acceptable so long as the card has no weaknesses. Of the cards that I mentioned, beyond GoGo, both Saint and Hoejja were Terrans, and fit all of your requirements. (At least. I'm not going to go over my choices so thoroughly when there were already at least two other options) Hoejja has 5 stamina anyways, so the point is moot, and Saint has only four stamina, but no weak matchup so that's an unnecessary consideration. So you had many options, not just one more, so if it was an unintentional build mistake then it was a fairly sloppy one.
The second is that even if there were no other options, and a player such as thezerg and Lomo would be greatly preferable to Baby regardless. You would be taking a risk in certain matchups, certainly, but that's far less significant than the fact that a player like Baby would potentially ruin explosive draws. Being forced to use the energy for the turn, that should have gone to Ganzi, to retreat Baby would be devastating to the combo time, and introduce a much greater element of luck as OSL Selections might have to be wasted simply to dig for energies. It would also allow to deck to run even fewer energies, giving the possibility for a few more blank trainers to slow the opponent down, such as Netizens or Progamer Equipment, or to fit in the MSL Selections necessary for the mirror. Proper metagaming would probably eliminate all most all of the risks involved, as there are an extremely limited number of basic players that can deal three damage, and thezerg has no weak matchups, and very few Zerg progamers that deal two damage immediately. If it was absolutely terrible it would still be necessary, as it's necessary regardless to prepare with the greatest care for the mirror, if you really believe that you have the best deck and unless you believe that no one else could have possibly come up for the same build as you. For example, the copies of Aura of Silence in the sideboard of the recent Cascade Swans decks. If you had come in without optimizing your build against what you consider the best deck, or at least considering the eventuality seriously, it would be highly possible that you would simply lose if I had included thezerg and you had not.
So even pretending that you had no other option but to accept thezerg or Lomo, it just seems like a clear mistake not to use them.
The third point that you used in defense of Baby was the protection of Ganzi; it really doesn't matter if Ganzi is exposed. At 6 stamina, he will last at least a single hit from all basic progamers, and at least two from all that don't happen to be Protoss. On the play, you'll get two activations from him, which is more than enough, and on the draw you will have at least one and to be honest it should be that hard to go off even with only a single activation. And it seems unlikely that you'll come against a Protoss anyways since almost all of the basic Protoss are terrible. In most cases, at worst, an Oov in the booth can be used to stall the combo and protect Ganzi already. So if Ganzi is your only basic, then you aren't in terrible shape anyways, since you can easily draw into a second, and if he isn't, even if Oov is the other, you're in great shape. It isn't like you expect to get more than a few activations off of Ganzi to begin with, and especially later on, it's surprising if you need more than one.
Fourth, I'm not even sure how that ideal draw you presented is relevant as I don't see how it effects my points at all, let alone should be taken into consideration. If anything, it helps my argument since putting Baby in the booth and chaining Oovs into Ganzi is substantially worse than putting in thezerg and chaining Oovs, as you would be forced to delay the initial Ganzi activation, taking a huge risk in a mirror while only eliminating a minor one against two progamers, with which both reside on a coin flip and require the use of terrible cards by your opponent to begin with.
And you might as well update the list for the mirror. There's no point in not discussing it, since the most likely improvement would simply be hard counters for other decks since any other fix would neuter the strategy entirely.
Also, could I have a few test goldfishes? I assume that you proxied the deck for testing, and while I can't imagine any sort of satisfaction with Baby, I'm also highly curious as to how the deck plays out, since while it seems fast it does seem like luck plays an overwhelming role, since the critical cards are in fairly low quantities (4x Oov, 4x Ganzi, 4x OSL Selection, which is reasonable but without mulliganing seems like it could lead to huge misses), and the necessity of luck on the first OSL Selection (not getting too many blanks). I can't at the moment, so I'm wondering how well and how consistently the deck plays since it seems like getting lucky with both the starting hand and the first OSL selection still seems to be up the air. Just theorycrafting I'm not even sure if the format needs to be fixed for a deck like this; it seems like just proper metagaming and MSL Selections to bust setups should be good enough to play against this deck given how inconsistent it seems mentally. Sorry for the doubt here, but I just need to see it in action for a deck like this. I would have to compare the feeling that it gives me to the Knoll-Swath decks (Gassy Knoll all the way to TSPS) that were in Standard a year or so ago (I haven't played recently so I can't comfortably give a more current example), and it just seems like there's a huge possibility to just bust the deck with proper play and slight metagaming.
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shit already a combo deck
and somebody called it tendrils storm!!! i fukken love combo decks, though i prefer swath storm... I MUST PLAY THE COMBO DECK
10 colors of land though woahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh what is this
give this man a beta key!
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Okay... You wasted 8 paragraphs trying to hash out why THE WORST 4 CARDS IN THE DECK ruin it. They are actually irrelevant. You could instead play with 4 energies and it would matter NONE.
So that's all I have to say about that. Stop wasting your time. Luck plays 0 part in it. Goldfish the deck. You see an average of 15 cards on turn 1 and 30 by turn 2. How is there luck? If you draw no card draw, you need 1 Oov or Ganzi + 1 Energy or Fan in the first 8 cards to still successfully see half your deck by turn 2. If you have Sc, you need the above in the top 10. If you have TLPD, you will see 30 cards or so by turn 2. if you have OSL, you will see a minimum of 15 and get to rid yourself of wasted cards and get a mathematically better draw unless you pitch 4 different pieces of Bonjwa. Actually try it. If you don't have a ganzi in play, a tlpd in hand, AND 3 of the Bonjwa pieces, you OSL it and just go nuts.
Blanks are irrelevant because you see INFINITE cards. Play the deck. You can't theorycraft math. The simple fact is that you see 1/4th of your deck turn 1. Cards like Fan, TLPD, Oov, and Ganzi all exponentially improve your draws each turn. Try the it out. Consider this. With a 60 card deck you have 1/15 shot of getting any single 4 of. So lets start there. Read the following if you'd like to see why Medies is being ridiculous in suggesting there is anything but incredible statistical certainty in playing this deck. On a side note, the odds of seeing at LEAST 1 of a 4of in the top 10 of a 60 card deck is over 40%.
+ Show Spoiler +
60 cards:
SCII removes itself and shows you 2 move always, so you can subtract the 4 SC and 4 additional nameless cards from the -functional- portion of the deck, as even if they are energies, you have increased the density of Bonjwa left in the deck.
52 cards:
Fan removes itself and puts a plains in your hand, decreasing the deck an additional 4 cards
48 cards:
Oov will always remove an additional 4 cards from your deck at minimum, so that means 1 Oov = 5 cards fewer to draw, leading to
43 cards:
TLPD replaces itself from the deck without any price, meaning anytime you draw it, you effectively drew any card you want because you will always have 2 additional cards leading to
39 cards:
Ganzi functions the exact same as TLPD, only requiring you have 1 of 12 cards (1 of any energy/fan) and he is able to put the special in your hand, replacing itself and removing 1 card from your deck every turn he is active, meaning the first 1 should remove 2, but regardless, only the first Ganzi 'really' counts even though multiples mean you will get one easy.
38 cards
So what is left in that 38? Well, there are the Bonjwa cards, 20 of them. So excluding those, the functional decksize is 18. Meaning if, by some miracle, you never see a single Bonjwa and just burn through purely card drawing, you have better than a 50% shot of getting a piece each draw step worst case scenario. Yes that's accurate. if you actually look at the cards in the deck, there are only 16 cards in the deck that aren't win conditions or don't push you through the deck faster, but the redundant Ganzi's don't count quite as much. Also OSL is left out of the equation because the math involved in a random 7 card hand from a deck of 52-48 is more than I care to do. Needless to say, that actually makes the deck's functional size even smaller.
5 Test goldfishes with Baby as some 0 cost GGer as per request.
+ Show Spoiler +
Hand 1:
MVP
2 Energy
1st MSL
2nd MSL
SCII
TLPD
Play MVP as my game, draw for my turn getting MSL 3. SCII drawing Oov MVP, Oov->Oov->Oov->Oov->Ganzi, play Ganzi, retreat MVP, Energy on Ganzi
This is a guaranteed turn 3 win. Playing it safe, activate Ganzi and get SCII. Turn 2, draw 3rd MSL, doesn't matter, SCII->Energy,3rd MSL (if i had hit TLPD or OSL 1 or Savior I would have won turn 2). Ganzi for TLPD, Turn 3, draw a blank, 2 TLPD's pitching the extra Bonjwa cards you drew off SCII, the MVP in hand, and the blank I drew for the turn. GG.
Seeing as a turn 2 win is very possible depending on draws, I got back the cards, shuffled the deck and went ahead for that. TLPD->OSL Selection, OSL into Gogo, OSL Selection, Ganzi, SCII, 3rd and 1st MSLs, and Fan Cheerfuls. Fan Cheerful for an energy. SCII into Savior, Energy. OSL Selection, drawing Fan, TLPD, OSL Sel, 1st Osl, Energy, MVP, baby Fan for Energy, TLPD for Fan for an Energy, OSL drawing 1st Msl, Savior, SCII, TLPD, 2nd MSL, 3rd MSL, Gogo. TLPD pitching scii and gogo for the 1st Osl and a turn 2 kill.
One more for you.
1st, 2nd, 4th MSL
TLPD
MVP
Energy
Oov
Obviously a turn 3 kill at the latest. Mvp as your guy, drawing TLPD, Oov chain into Ganzi, retreat MVP for Ganzi, activate getting SCII. Draw Energy, SCII into SCII, Fan. Fan for Energy, SCII drawing Gogo, Ganzi. TLPD pitching gogo ganzi for Savior, TLPD for 1st OSL pitching 2 Energies. Turn 2 kill because I hit a second SCII in the top 4 cards. If I hadn't hit any SCII, or Savior/1st Osl, I would have just activated ganzi getting a second SCII and then turn 3 double TLPD.
Another?
Hand:
Mvp
2 3rd Msl's,
1st Osl
Fan Cheerfuls
Ganzi
Energy
Play Mvp. Draw Savior. Fan for energy, Ganzi, swap, Energy, activate getting OSL Seleciton. Turn 2->Draw Savior. Osl Selection into 2 Gogo, Mvp, 1st Msl, 2nd MSL, MVP, and Oov. Oov chain and end with Gogo. Ganzi for OSL Selection. The worst draw ever and I've seen 23 cards before turn 3. Turn 3 ->Draw TLPD for my turn. TLPD into Fan into Energy, OSL Sel into Energy, 1st & 2nd MSL, Gogo, Savior, OSL, and Fan. Fan into Energy, OSL Sel into 1st Osl, 2nd MSL, Ganzi, TLPD, 1st MSL, MVP, SCII. SCII into OSL Sel and TLPD. TLPD pitching Ganzi, MVP for SCII. SCII drawing 3rd MSL, 1st MSL. TLPD discard the extra 1st OSL and OSL Selection getting Savior.
How lucky I get one of the 2 pieces I was missing, right? I only had 17 cards left in my deck before TLPD. So i instead had myself draw 2 blanks in the form of MVP and Ganzi. Oh shucks, but in my deck is 1 more each of 1st OSL, 1st MSL, Savior, 2nd MSL, and 3 3rd OSLs. And there are only 14 cards left. So i just tlpd getting a Fan for an Energy (12 cards left) and OSL Sel, leaving 5 cards left in my library. Drawing 2 Energy, Savior, 3rd, 2nd and 1st MSLs, and SCII. The cards left in my deck are 2 more 3rd MSLs, the 1st Osl I need, a TLPD, and an SCII. So if I draw ANY combination of those cards except 2 3rd MSLs, I win the game instantly. And I don't, 3rd MSL, and TLPD. TLPD pitching Energies getting the 1st Osl and a turn 3 kill with an SCII and a 3rd MSL only left in the deck.
Yeah. Its luck.
And yes... I did play those correctly. TLPD for Fan for Energy is the correct play prior to OSL Selection.
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I've got to make a request, maybe for a future expansion.
New versions of older players to represent when they were at their peak. Like an S class July when he was Muta micro king!
Something like that.
Also, I never played the Pokemon TGC but this sounds like some fun. Great work!
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See guys, Fan Cheerfuls are good.
So is 4x auto SCII hype...
even if you are not trying to win in a degenerate way, they both help your deck do the same thing every single time
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United States1865 Posts
SC2 hype and OSL Group Selection are getting a slight modification for when the eStro expansion comes out that will make them more of a tactical decision when used rather than just an easy choice with no cost.
Running 4x Fan Cheerfuls is fine if you want - it has the drawback of being completely vulnerable to disruption decks that are heavy on Korean Netizens and Path of the Night, combined with the Team cards you lose from paying GG costs you could very easily run out of team cards necessary to power your best guys.
Plus anyone going for a single-team deck has no use for a Fan Cheerful.
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On June 18 2009 03:34 Atrioc wrote:
SC2 hype and OSL Group Selection are getting a slight modification for when the eStro expansion comes out that will make them more of a tactical decision when used rather than just an easy choice with no cost.
Running 4x Fan Cheerfuls is fine if you want - it has the drawback of being completely vulnerable to disruption decks that are heavy on Korean Netizens and Path of the Night, combined with the Team cards you lose from paying GG costs you could very easily run out of team cards necessary to power your best guys.
Plus anyone going for a single-team deck has no use for a Fan Cheerful.
Sleight's list is single-team and it has 4x Fan Cheerfuls. It thins your deck.
I know it isn't strictly better than the Team Cards it replaces, but I'm just pointing out that it often is an improvement, especially for lists running a lot of Team Cards.
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Can you have 4x of each of the bonjwa cards?
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I was seriously amazing by your goldfishes. It seemed like you had every single card you needed at every exact moment. Almost too good to be true. So, to confirm it for myself, I did a personal test in MWS to confirm it. My results were quite different from yours. As a note, I used lands for Savior and the pieces, and just won when I had all five rather than dealing in specifics. As such I'll use the land names rather than specifying which piece is which.
I goldfished five times as well.
+ Show Spoiler +
One:
OSL
OSL
Hype
Hoejja
Fan Cheerfuls
Hoejja
Woongjin
Play 1 Hoejja, keeping the other in my hand. Fan Cheerfuls for a Woongjin. SC2 Hype, drawing into Hoejja and a Swamp.
OSL Selection into: Island, Mountain, Forest, Fan Cheerfuls, OSL Selection, SC2 Hype, Woongjin
SC2 Hype into Woongjin and Fan Cheerfuls. Deciding not to thin the deck down to 2 effective energies in case I need one for Ganzi, or even 4 I decide to not use the Fan Cheerfuls. I have nothing and no way of making Savior from the three pieces I have at the moment, and have an OSL so the decision is easy.
OSL Selection into: OSL Selection, Hoejja, MVP, TLPD, Island, Mountains, Plains, Swamp
I decide to go fishing anothing time, since I'm still one card off of a win and have an OSL Selection anyways.
OSL Selection into: 3x Woongjin, Forest, Plains, Fan Cheefuls, MVP
Still nothing. I don't even have a Ganzi to try to clock out of it.
I have seen 35 cards on turn one, but due to the nature of OSL Selection I still have not managed a win.
Two:
TLPD
Ganzi
Fan Cheerfuls
Hoejja
MVP
MVP
Fan Cheerfuls
Ganzi goes in the booth, I play none of the blank 0 GGers since I'm assuming that I'm on the play and might want a bench placement for a second Ganzi just in case. TLPD discarding two of the blank 0 GGers for a third Fan Cheerfuls. I play all three Fan Cheerfuls, attach a Woongjin to Ganzi. I have nothing, so I Ganzi for OSL Selection and play it.
OSL Selection into: Island, Mountain, Swamp, Forest, TLPD, OSL Selection, Hoejja
Obvious win here. But this is exactly what I was talking about; I OSL Selectioned, got lucky and ended up with four pieces, no repeats, and a TLPD. There was nothing here to suggest that I got anything but lucky, but that's the benefit of playing a combo deck.
Three:
Woongjin
Woongjin
Woongjin
Ganzi
MVP
Swamp
Mountain
Ganzi in the booth, attach a Woongjin, an then there's no choice but to Ganzi for an OSL Selection and play it.
OSL Selection into: Swamp, Mountain, Island, Plains, Ganzi, Oov, Hoejja
Another lucky OSL. Ganzi will win the next turn provided that Idra or some such does not such Trainers down. Both times I somehow managed to get 4 pieces with no duplicates, and I have no idea if I can call that anything but luck. (Taking a point from FakeSteve's book and saying that a post responding to this should include "Muffin Top" so I know that you've read what I've written before responding.)
Four:
Forest
Forest
Swamp
Woongjin
MVP
Hoejja
Fan Cheerfuls
I think that it's safe to say that this is a losing hand? MVP and Hoejja go into the booth and on the bench arbitrarily, and save for random lucky topdecking any deck should be able to get Idra online or some other way of shutting this deck down by the time it starts to be anything similar to a threat.
Incidentally, Fan Cheerfuls, and then the next few topdecks would be:
SC2 Hype
Island
Fan Cheerfuls
Oov
Island
Five:
Woongjin
Swamp
OSL
OSL
MVP
MVP
Hoejja
MVP in the booth, nothing to do but OSL.
OSL Selection into: Mountain, Island, Island, Swamp, Woongjin, OSL Selection, Oov
Oov - Oov - Oov - Oov - Ganzi, Woongjin on Ganzi, Ganzi into the booth, and OSL Selection one more time.
TLPD
TLPD
Island
Mountain
Woongjin
Fan Cheerfuls
Ganzi
This is probably too good to throw away since a win is just possible here next turn with Ganzi's powers (SC2 Hype, play both TLPDs, and there are just enough cards for another TLPD courtesy of Ganzi next turn), but again, a certain element of luck involved here since I would have been screwed had I not gotten Oov and the second OSL, and in the second OSL managed to get two TLPDs and 2 distinct pieces. Again, not tremendously lucky but with so many blanks even a draw like this which was fairly marginal required some luck to pull off.
In summary, I went off 3 out of five times, two of which were just plain luck, not even having required any hand manipulation after a good OSL before winning. Even considering getting flat out lucky twice out of five times as acceptable deviation, which I would highly doubt, that's still only decent, not amazing. And that's not considering at all the possibility of disruption like Idra or any possibly counters introduced or even just knocking Ganzi out before the second activation could hit.
I also never had to face a situation where I was stranded with an Oov in the booth (my only basic), or having a hand full of blank Bonjwa pieces, not getting cut off by being forced to Ganzi for necessary OSLs, all of which seem like distinct possibilities.
As it stands right now, it seems like there's no way this deck could have a go off rate of greater than 70% goldfishing, if even that, with an optimal build with no cards dedicated to hate (MSL Selection). Not certain if it really is the best deck in the format without proper testing rather than goldfishing, and there probably needs to be some hate out there given the dearth of utility abilities to begin with, but from five preliminary tests this is nothing anywhere close to broken.
For a traditional comparison, TES and SI both seem appropriate. Both have the capability and consistency to kill turn two at the latest with very few fizzles and have almost no blanks, and include hate in their basic builds. Compared to this, which consists primarily of blanks, contains no hate, and still seems inconsistent, they seem almost strictly more powerful in a fundamentally more explosive ruleset (no mana costs, Ganzi, unlimited Trainers per turn). And neither of those decks is considered overwhelming in their format.
Given the ability of other decks to find hate as well, this doesn't seem anywhere near as broken as you're making it out to be. It should be just as easy for another deck to dig for an Idra on turn one, and with a slightly more powerful attack could easily just shut you down and kill you slowly while you hold a hand entirely full of blanks hoping to topdeck into a completed Bonjwa. And with other, better hate cards introduced the concept even seems like it could be laughable.
A good deck? Considering the inherently slower nature of this game, perhaps. Overwhelming? I highly doubt it.
I disagree with numerous other points that you've made but I'm short on time at the moment as I'm on vacation so I'll address them later. This has already taken me around 20 minutes to write, and I am short on time, but my silence is not consent.
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I did some goldfishing of my own and found that attacking twice with Ganzi almost always leads to a win. Since it's realllly easy to find ganzi between 4 ganzi, 4 oov, 4 tlpd, and 4 osl selection, it means that the deck goes off extremely consistently.
You can almost always find Ganzi early. There are 12 cards that either are Ganzi or tutor for him and 8 extremely efficient card drawers to find one of those 12. The times where you failed to find him on turn 1 are the exception, not the other way around.
In a contest between this deck and a deck with a "fair" strategy it's a very, very heavily weighted coin flip in the favor of the Bonjwa deck. Even if they manage to knock out your first Ganzi and you haven't won already you should be in a position where you can draw out of it before they can knock out the rest of the Oovs on your bench.
I can't believe you are using comparisons to magic decks to make your point. The reason storm decks aren't broken in their format is because cards like Force of Will and Duress/Thoughtseize exist. You know, meaningful ways to interact on turns 1-2. The best your opponent can do to you here is play MSL selection and give you a fresh 7 to work with.
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Is there a hand limit when ending your turn? If there isn't, would you consider putting one in?
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Hold up. The test games Medies played were embarassing misplays. You can't actually give credit to your goldfishing if you do things like TLPD for a 3rd fan cheerfuls when you DONT HAVE GANZI. TLPD for Oov chain for Ganzi. Come on. You NEVER don't Fan Cheerfuls unless there are 0 energy left. No wonder you can't win with an amazing hand G5. All you have to do is TLPD for OSL and OSL again and you WILL win. You don't stop OSLing until you have 3 pieces AND either TLPD or SCII with an active Ganzi. There is no luck. There is drawing your deck and playing it appropriately.
Furthermore, you cannot activate Ganzi and use the card in the same turn. He has to 'attack' to do it, from my understanding, and you have to end your turn afterwards. This isn't Magic, you don't get 2 main phases, or at least, that's how the rules propose it.
Your play was incredibly inaccurate. Apparently you are not playing my list. I play with 8 Energies and in game 3 you see 9 in your first 16 cards. So yeah. You can't play a different list and treat it as the same. Furthermore, the way the game is set up, you have to play your guy BEFORE you know if you are playing first. So yeah, none of this "Well I ganzi blind cause I'm playing first".
If you want, we can connect over MWS or something and I'll just beat you every game for awhile. I'll give you a card for card list and all you have to tell me is the number of MSL in your deck.
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what if we play to 6 retirements and i have only five progamers in my deck, the rest being bonjwa cards and special cards?
edit: wait i missed the bit about me losing sorry
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I made an Apprentice patch for this, so people can use that to play online until there's a better solution. You can download the zip with Apprentice and the patch here: http://rapidshare.com/files/246134451/Apprentice.zip
Just unzip everything into a folder and you should be able to run it. When you're in the Deck Editor you can look for SC-Starcraft under the Expansion dropdown and hit the check mark to filter out the MTG cards. To play against someone, one of the players has to give the other their ip and select 'waiting for a call', then hit OK before the other player tries to call them.
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is awesome32274 Posts
On June 19 2009 12:07 shadowryu wrote:I made an Apprentice patch for this, so people can use that to play online until there's a better solution. You can download the zip with Apprentice and the patch here: http://rapidshare.com/files/246134451/Apprentice.zip Just unzip everything into a folder and you should be able to run it. When you're in the Deck Editor you can look for SC-Starcraft under the Expansion dropdown and hit the check mark to filter out the MTG cards. To play against someone, one of the players has to give the other their ip and select 'waiting for a call', then hit OK before the other player tries to call them.
wut! So, anybody want's to play? I suck but we should get the ball moving so we can make something out of this : ]
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51449 Posts
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51449 Posts
anyone for a game? pm me your ip if you are.
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51449 Posts
meh
apprentice suuuuuuucks, can't even get to connect to someone.
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totally deserving of a beta key haha
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Im trying a way to make this playable on Magic Work Station (I already make the SC Set... but when I tray to make a Deck MWS keeps crashing) I will try to fix that and try it with a friend... if that works i will post how to play on MWS =D
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Ok guys. I got it to work on MWS. The advantages of using this over Apprentice is 1. it's a bit easier to connect to people to play and 2. YOU GET TO USE THE PICTURES. which is awesome.
Okay, so this is how you set it up (for Windows):
1). Download these files:
http://rapidshare.com/files/246511053/StarCraft_TCG.zip - card info + renamed card images
http://www.magicworkstation.com/download/mws094f.exe - Magic Workstation installation
http://mwsgames.com/download/mtg_gamepack.exe - MTG Card Database
2). Unzip the zip file. You should get a folder named STA containing card images and a text file called "StarCraft TCG.txt".
3). Install Magic Workstation by running the mws094f.exe. (Obviously you can skip steps 3 and 4 if you already have MWS)
4). Install the MTG Card Database by running mtg_gamepack.exe.
5). Open the folder containing Magic Workstation. (This folder should be in Program Files, unless you told it to install somewhere else). Find the folder called "Pics" and put the folder STA in that folder.
6). Open Magic Workstation. Click on a card in the top area to select the Master Base. Go to Tools -> Analyze/Add/Remove Sets. Click on the Add New Edition tab.
7). Enter STA as the Edition Key, and something like StarCraft TCG for Edition Name (Edition Name doesn't matter, as long as you can identify it).
8). Click "Get data from text Spoiler" (do not hit "Mark cards as custom created"). For Path to Spoiler, hit the browse button and select the StarCraft TCG text file. Hit Next Page, then hit Add Edition. A window should pop up saying 112 cards added. (if it says "Error: current grid must be master-like type", it means you did not select the top area, which is the Master Base). The cards should be added.
9). Save the Master Base by selecting it and hitting Ctrl+S, or hitting the Save button. Close Magic Workstation and reopen it. This step is important.
10). Go to View -> Simple (Apprentice like) Card Filter. Select StarCraft (or whatever you named the set) as the expansion and hit apply filtering. (The regular Card Filter also works).
At this point if all you see are StarCraft cards and the card pictures show up you should have done it successfully. You should be able to make a deck and play other people online. To test by yourself, do Game -> Test Deck in solo mode. To connect online, do Game -> Connect to Opponent, and join the mwsgames.net server. Have one person make a game and have the other person join. Go to www.mwsgames.com for more information on the software.
A few notes:
- I did not enter attacks, weakness/strengths, and GG cost into the card information since the pictures have the information on them. I did enter card type, the progamers' Stamina (represented as mana cost), and their Class, Race, and Team because that information lets you sort the cards. If you guys think it is really necessary for me to enter the card information then I'll do so.
- I couldn't figure out how to make it work correctly without installing the MTG card database. If you have an improved method let me know.
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daaaaam nice just dl'd it
gonan play it now on mws names sung_moon
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On June 20 2009 14:27 sung_moon wrote:
daaaaam nice just dl'd it
gonan play it now on mws names sung_moon
You want to play a game right now?
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On June 20 2009 14:31 Gustav_Wind wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2009 14:27 sung_moon wrote:
daaaaam nice just dl'd it
gonan play it now on mws names sung_moon You want to play a game right now?
sure testing it out on solo right now
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51449 Posts
anyone for a game?
apparently i can't host because it shows my lan ip -_-
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names sung_moon with Starcraft TCG TL on my game post
also on mwsplay.net
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On June 20 2009 14:38 GTR wrote:
anyone for a game?
apparently i can't host because it shows my lan ip -_-
A game on mws or apprentice?
You can host/play online with mws by connecting to their server, so you don't need to use your ip address
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51449 Posts
On June 20 2009 14:40 Gustav_Wind wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2009 14:38 GTR wrote:
anyone for a game?
apparently i can't host because it shows my lan ip -_- A game on mws or apprentice? You can host/play online with mws by connecting to their server, so you don't need to use your ip address
MWS.
How do I do this server crap?
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On June 20 2009 14:40 GTR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2009 14:40 Gustav_Wind wrote:On June 20 2009 14:38 GTR wrote:
anyone for a game?
apparently i can't host because it shows my lan ip -_- A game on mws or apprentice? You can host/play online with mws by connecting to their server, so you don't need to use your ip address MWS. How do I do this server crap?
do Game -> Connect to Opponent and hit call. Find my game on the list of games. my username is Gustav Wind
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GTR and Gustav, if you guys are going to be on for a bit, I'm going to download MWS and play some games as well if that is alright.
EDIT: name will be d1sh0ng
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51449 Posts
just beat sung_moon, anyone else want to game?
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United States1865 Posts
Oh this is awesome
I'll get on tomorrow and game it up.
@gustav
so will be possible to alter cards or add new cards easily? A lot of cards get fixed typos / rewrites in the eStro expansion, not to mention the new cards that come with it, and I was hoping those could be included in the online version.
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I'll play GTR
EDIT: In mwsgames.net if anyone wants to play.
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51449 Posts
basic-based decks are just imbalanced
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On June 20 2009 15:27 Atrioc wrote:
Oh this is awesome
I'll get on tomorrow and game it up.
@gustav
so will be possible to alter cards or add new cards easily? A lot of cards get fixed typos / rewrites in the eStro expansion, not to mention the new cards that come with it, and I was hoping those could be included in the online version.
altering cards wouldn't be easy but adding new ones would be. It would be doing steps 6-10, plus putting the folder containing the pictures in the Pics folder.
Did you come up with anything as far as balancing goes? Assuming Bonjwa+Ganzi is banned, Path of Night + Korean Netizens is just obnoxious.
It seems like Jaedong or Iris+Kwanro are the only good progamers.
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51449 Posts
Still on MWSPlay, I want to try a new deck.
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On June 20 2009 16:02 GTR wrote:
Still on MWSPlay, I want to try a new deck.
I don't have another deck =P if you don't mind playing against it again I'll play
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51449 Posts
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Btw if anyone wants my current list here it is
+ Show Spoiler +
4 Iris
4 Kwanro
4 Iloveoov
4 Starcraft 2 Hype
4 TLPD
4 OSL Group Selection
4 Liquipedia
4 Korean Netizens
2 The Path of the Night
3 Poor Coaching
1 Tears of the Moon
1 Andromeda
21 CJ Entus
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im on MWSplay now with game named progamer TCG,.
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51449 Posts
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Got rolled by GTR, my deck really doesn't work in this format with lots of removal and Haymaker style basic progamers.
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Haha GTR did you switch to the Haymaker deck? =P
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51449 Posts
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I'm gonna make a Jaedong Dance deck.
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51449 Posts
i did it, got brutalised by gustav's deck.
just couldnt get jd up fast enough.
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I'm still up for games; I wanna see if the deck I have is actually as good as I think
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I'm almost certain S-Class is too slow for these Haymaker progamers.
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51449 Posts
On June 20 2009 16:48 d1sh0ng wrote:
I'm almost certain S-Class is too slow for these Haymaker progamers.
yes, it's impossible for s-class cards to be good until a pokemon breeder-esque card arrives.
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GTR are you playing with MWS? Please how do you play online?
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51449 Posts
On June 20 2009 16:53 Malongo wrote:
GTR are you playing with MWS? Please how do you play online?
tools -> connect to opponent -> mwsplay
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51449 Posts
sigh if you are going to join games please don't use obscure names.
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wait how do you install this (im absolutely noob )
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I'm not sure at this point whether JD beats Haymaker
I feel like the best deck will be a combination of the two, but I haven't figured it out yet
Also Horang2 might be really good
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On June 20 2009 17:41 only.her0 wrote:
anyone on mws?
d1sh0ng and I still are
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using same name, game called starcraft if u wanna play
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Now I'm not sure what the correct number of Path of Nights is... I've cut down to 2 in my deck
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Oh please can someone change the font in the cards im going blind. Black small font over dark background is so bad. Ill try to make a deck anyways.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
It can't get better then this folks.
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51449 Posts
still looking for games on mswplay, msl seems to be not running well.
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If we get free updates on this card game I'll play it
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On June 20 2009 19:20 GTR wrote:
still looking for games on mswplay, msl seems to be not running well.
I'm up for some games, I'll test a Jaedong build
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51449 Posts
On June 20 2009 19:41 Gustav_Wind wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2009 19:20 GTR wrote:
still looking for games on mswplay, msl seems to be not running well. I'm up for some games, I'll test a Jaedong build
go on, i just faced a trolling idiot anyway.
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51449 Posts
excuse me?
you attacked therefore it ended the turn.
don't make up rules out of your ass.
not going to bother playing with imbeciles like you.
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when you pay for the GG cost those cards stay in play or have to be discarded?
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Question for you Atrioc:
Does KOing your own Progamers count towards your opponent's total?
This was very relevant in a game involving Horang2 and Nada =(
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On June 20 2009 20:36 NukemDuke wrote:
When you level up progamers IE basic > A > S Does the damage go away, or does it stay?
This.. i need that answer
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On June 20 2009 21:15 FranzF1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2009 20:36 NukemDuke wrote:
When you level up progamers IE basic > A > S Does the damage go away, or does it stay? This.. i need that answer
The damage stays.
btw I have a Jaedong list that I think is decent, though I don't think it's quite optimal...
it might be better than haymaker... I haven't tested the two against each other yet
+ Show Spoiler +
4 Jaedong
4 Nada
4 Baby
3 MVP
4 Iloveoov
4 Starcraft 2 Hype
4 OSL Group Selection
4 TLPD
2 Poor Coaching
4 Korean Netizens
4 Liquipedia
19 Hwaseung Oz
Path of Night ended up being bad for some reason... it feels wrong to cut all of them but during the games they were never useful, and liquipedias often were.
I also just realized that Horang2 destroys Haymaker (Iris and Kwanro are both weak against Protoss). Awkward...
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u should try magic workstation it works with MTG but to make new editions u just have to create a .txt with all the cards name/abilityes/etc and install on the program and if u want pictures u can put them there to, then u can play i didnt read all but i guess its similar, with mws u control all your moves so it works with more games than MTG.
http://www.magicworkstation.com/.
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i have a game of this up on MWS if anyone wants to play
mwsplay that is
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United States1865 Posts
On June 20 2009 20:53 Gustav_Wind wrote:
Question for you Atrioc:
Does KOing your own Progamers count towards your opponent's total?
This was very relevant in a game involving Horang2 and Nada =(
Currently the NaDa card is completely and totally fucked because of a typo that requires him to deal 10 damage to his own bench instead of 1 damage.
However, yes, any progamers on your side that are KO'd/Retired automatically counts towards your opponents total no matter how it happens.
On June 20 2009 20:42 Malongo wrote:
when you pay for the GG cost those cards stay in play or have to be discarded?
Discarded
On June 20 2009 19:45 NukemDuke wrote:<Player 42> Pusan does 6 damage <GTR> No it doesn't <GTR> FFFFFF <System> Player Lost
I dont quite know the situation here but I do want to clarify that the Pusan card does not get an additional 1 damage for each damage counter on him, but simply that if he has any damage counters at all, he deals +1 damage.
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HAHA this is hysterical and awesome at the same time
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On June 20 2009 21:31 Gustav_Wind wrote:The damage stays. btw I have a Jaedong list that I think is decent, though I don't think it's quite optimal... it might be better than haymaker... I haven't tested the two against each other yet + Show Spoiler +
4 Jaedong
4 Nada
4 Baby
3 MVP
4 Iloveoov
4 Starcraft 2 Hype
4 OSL Group Selection
4 TLPD
2 Poor Coaching
4 Korean Netizens
4 Liquipedia
19 Hwaseung Oz
Path of Night ended up being bad for some reason... it feels wrong to cut all of them but during the games they were never useful, and liquipedias often were.
I also just realized that Horang2 destroys Haymaker (Iris and Kwanro are both weak against Protoss). Awkward...
I'm fairly sure thinking about it now that iloveoov, a Terran Basic, and a Terran A-Gamer MUST be used in any deck that uses S-Class. The search with oov is much needed to keep pace with the Haymaker deck. In an untested format, speed and aggression is always popular and any other deck must be able to either:
A: Keep up
B: Hold off the aggression, stabilize, and set up their win condition
So then Gustav, I think your lineup of Baby, Nada, and oov is the engine needed for any S-Class deck. With attacks that require no specific Team Card, they can still attack and do good damage. Thanks for the ideas, I'm going back into the lab.
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United States8476 Posts
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i was thinking of programming this in java with internet play but I guess theres no reason to since it works on magic workstation?
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how to make a deck? i have done verything already and got all my cards and everything filtered, i just dont know how to select those cards to make a deck now ^^
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well im online, just having problems finding your game ^^
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Im online if someone want to play
Name: Franz
Game: Starcraft
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O man, I clicked on this when there were 2 pages and thought it was so awesome...here I am again and its on 18!!!
Theres also been updating even though the contest is over...nice! =)
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On June 21 2009 02:50 Atrioc wrote:
Currently the NaDa card is completely and totally fucked because of a typo that requires him to deal 10 damage to his own bench instead of 1 damage.
LOL wow. It's a typo. I guess I should have known...
the thing is it would never be relevant for me, as his 2 cost for 4 is much better than 4 non-hwaseung for 7 in this format, but it was because GTR was using Horang2 =(
Horang2 >>>> Nada, GG... Horang2 is so good but I can't figure out his place in the metagame.
Atrioc, if you want to make edits to the pictures and rerelease them, just make sure to change all the names of the pictures to the right format (Cardname.full.jpg).
On June 21 2009 04:53 d1sh0ng wrote:
So then Gustav, I think your lineup of Baby, Nada, and oov is the engine needed for any S-Class deck. With attacks that require no specific Team Card, they can still attack and do good damage. Thanks for the ideas, I'm going back into the lab.
Yeah, I missed Nada on first pass because his second attack was so ludicrous, but 2 colorless for 4 is quite efficient relative to the power of the other A-class. (The other A-class terrans are pretty embarrassing compared to Nada).
Oov is really good to tutor for your pieces, but the reason I put him in that deck was because he's an insanely good attacker once you have Jaedong out. That way you can leave Jaedong on the bench safely and just hurl 6 damage Oovs at them.
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is awesome32274 Posts
had some very fun games with Cube!
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i got some questions ^^:
- you attack on both in the same turn or each active progamer in their player´s turn?
- do progamer need to be active to use special abilities?
- special abilities of progamers can be used on enemies turn?
- gg can be used on enemies turn?
- why does the osl give 7 new cards, but the poker card gives 1 or 8. Poker cards looks so much weaker that i am not sure i understand them right
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Hmm, anyone wants to play?
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im waiting for someone to play.
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United States1865 Posts
On June 21 2009 09:50 Teejing wrote:
i got some questions ^^:
- you attack on both in the same turn or each active progamer in their player´s turn?
- do progamer need to be active to use special abilities?
- special abilities of progamers can be used on enemies turn?
- gg can be used on enemies turn?
- why does the osl give 7 new cards, but the poker card gives 1 or 8. Poker cards looks so much weaker that i am not sure i understand them right
#1 - You attack at the end of your turn. Attacking ends your turn so it is the last thing you do before your opponent does his turn.
#2 - The card should specify when the special ability should be used, but as a general rule - if it doesnt say that they need to be "in the booth / active" then you can use it even if they are on the bench. Some special abilities can only be used when a progamer is first played from the hand, but that should be specified on the card.
#3 - No, special abilities (unless it says so specifically on the card) cannot be used during your opponents turn.
#4 - No, you can only GG during your own turn in order to replace your active progamer with someone from your bench.
#5 - The OSL requires you to discard your hand in order to get 7 new cards - Poker has you shuffle your hand back into your deck, meaning you arent really losing the cards in your hand, they just go back into your deck and you can draw them later.
Thanks for the questions!
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Basing it off the Pokemon trading card game was a smart choice. I love the creativity of each card. Even Idra has his own card. :D
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I'm up for games currently if anyone happens to be on >.>
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51449 Posts
horang/andromeda is so imba. gust of wind needs to be included in the expansion definitely.
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On June 21 2009 17:52 GTR wrote:
horang/andromeda is so imba. gust of wind needs to be included in the expansion definitely.
Why is Horang good with andromeda...?
You up for some games right now?
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is awesome32274 Posts
On June 21 2009 06:54 Disastorm wrote:
i was thinking of programming this in java with internet play but I guess theres no reason to since it works on magic workstation?
Well online play without all the patching would be way better. If you have the time im sure that would get more people into the game. : p
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On June 21 2009 06:54 Disastorm wrote:
i was thinking of programming this in java with internet play but I guess theres no reason to since it works on magic workstation?
Well I don't want to download the whole magic workstation. But I'd play your version.
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Thx for answering my questions Atrioc =)
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Yes online play without dl/install/patching would be better, but come on guys... the process isn't that time consuming/annoying, and the files aren't that big >.>
that being said... if you still are interested in programming online play you should go ahead. People will definitely use it.
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I have a problem installing this stuff.
I wanna add the starcraft cards, I go into this Tool->Analyze/Add-> Add new edition menu.
I do everything as it was written here, but the next step button remains grey, so I can't click on it to add the cards.
HELP please
edit:
Solved now
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Oh, boy. Teamliquid community is so incredible, it never stops giving.
It would be absolutely amazing to be able to play this card game on-line. There would be a Teamliquid Card server, wouldn't it?
Thats so sweet!
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On June 21 2009 17:52 GTR wrote:
horang/andromeda is so imba. gust of wind needs to be included in the expansion definitely.
Horang is imba as is; Andromeda means you need no attached team cards to use him.
Also, python is overpowered; it can single handedly cripple any map based deck.
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Alright so I've got it going. Is anyone playing?
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Can poor coaching be used to return basic (unupgraded) progamers to your hand? It seems like its design is to recycle basic cards from A-Class & S-Class upgraded progamers.
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On June 22 2009 03:01 Abydos1 wrote:
Can poor coaching be used to return basic (unupgraded) progamers to your hand? It seems like its design is to recycle basic cards from A-Class & S-Class upgraded progamers.
Yes you can use Poor Coaching to return a Basic Progamer back to your hand. Keep in mind you can then play it to your bench immediately as it is a Basic Progamer. This lets you accomplish some nice plays.....
- Play Poor Coaching on TheRock with lots of damage on it. This allows you to replay TheRock with no damage on him.
- Play Poor Coaching on iloveoov to return him back to hand and replay him for another search. And oov loses all his damage as well.
You pretty much want to only use this on Basic Progamers. Keep in mind that any Team Cards are discarded and if you upgraded the Progamer you will lose your Basic and A-Teamer. You can also use this on your active progamer (unless they are the only progamer you control). So you can essentially use Poor Coaching on your active TheRock with 11 Damage, bring in Idra, replay TheRock, then GG Idra and you have a TheRock with no damage on him!
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Path of the night.
Can it be used to take cards from 2 DIFFERENT opponents progamers?
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On June 22 2009 04:21 Klive5ive wrote:
Path of the night.
Can it be used to take cards from 2 DIFFERENT opponents progamers?
Wording is ambiguous but I think the intention is one progamer.
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On June 21 2009 17:52 GTR wrote:
gust of wind needs to be included in the expansion definitely.
Seconded
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United States1865 Posts
Path of the Night is indeed 1 progamer only, so be sure to pick one that has 2 team cards or more on it.
Right now KeSPA interference can act as a psuedo-Gust of Wind if you need to stop people from getting to the safety of the bench.
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Can OSL Selection be played with 0 cards in hand to discard?
I would say no, because if you cannot pay the cost, the effect does not get activated.
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United States1865 Posts
On June 22 2009 04:47 Phelix wrote:
Can OSL Selection be played with 0 cards in hand to discard?
I would say no, because if you cannot pay the cost, the effect does not get activated.
You discard your whole hand regardless of how many cards are in it. So if the only card you have is OSL Selection, you can indeed still play it and get 7 new cards.
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This game is brilliant, thx atrioc
qnother question, what about for example by.hero, who can attack and make the enemy fatugue, can i use both abilities or do i have to decide?
Same with skyhigh. Also the abilities (to mfatigue or make the slump) must be used in my turn right ( regarding by.hero and skyhigh) ?
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On June 22 2009 04:49 Atrioc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2009 04:47 Phelix wrote:
Can OSL Selection be played with 0 cards in hand to discard?
I would say no, because if you cannot pay the cost, the effect does not get activated. You discard your whole hand regardless of how many cards are in it. So if the only card you have is OSL Selection, you can indeed still play it and get 7 new cards.
I played some games with Phelix. It was a lot of fun.
Here's my thoughts on some cards.
B-teamers- not being able to GG is silly. If you have more cards when b-teamers comes out you can just deck your opponent.
Path of the night- too powerful/slows the game massively.
Osl Selection - too powerful
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United States1865 Posts
On June 22 2009 06:07 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2009 04:49 Atrioc wrote:On June 22 2009 04:47 Phelix wrote:
Can OSL Selection be played with 0 cards in hand to discard?
I would say no, because if you cannot pay the cost, the effect does not get activated. You discard your whole hand regardless of how many cards are in it. So if the only card you have is OSL Selection, you can indeed still play it and get 7 new cards. I played some games with Phelix. It was a lot of fun. Here's my thoughts on some cards. B-teamers- not being able to GG is silly. If you have more cards when b-teamers comes out you can just deck your opponent. Path of the night- too powerful/slows the game massively. Osl Selection - too powerful
Can you clairfy what you mean about B-Teamer?
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On June 22 2009 06:20 Atrioc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2009 06:07 Klive5ive wrote:On June 22 2009 04:49 Atrioc wrote:On June 22 2009 04:47 Phelix wrote:
Can OSL Selection be played with 0 cards in hand to discard?
I would say no, because if you cannot pay the cost, the effect does not get activated. You discard your whole hand regardless of how many cards are in it. So if the only card you have is OSL Selection, you can indeed still play it and get 7 new cards. I played some games with Phelix. It was a lot of fun. Here's my thoughts on some cards. B-teamers- not being able to GG is silly. If you have more cards when b-teamers comes out you can just deck your opponent. Path of the night- too powerful/slows the game massively. Osl Selection - too powerful Can you clairfy what you mean about B-Teamer?
Well when it becomes the active progamer there is no way to force your opponent to attack it and it can't do any damage.
So they can just leave it there and deck you.
There should be the option to discard it at will.
While your there :p when you upgrade to A-class or S-class do you remove all damage counters or are they carried onto the new progamer?
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51449 Posts
Can you upgrade a B-Teamer to a A-Class card?
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On June 22 2009 04:47 Phelix wrote:
Can OSL Selection be played with 0 cards in hand to discard?
I would say no, because if you cannot pay the cost, the effect does not get activated.
Discarding is not part of the cost.
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On June 22 2009 06:44 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2009 06:20 Atrioc wrote:On June 22 2009 06:07 Klive5ive wrote:On June 22 2009 04:49 Atrioc wrote:On June 22 2009 04:47 Phelix wrote:
Can OSL Selection be played with 0 cards in hand to discard?
I would say no, because if you cannot pay the cost, the effect does not get activated. You discard your whole hand regardless of how many cards are in it. So if the only card you have is OSL Selection, you can indeed still play it and get 7 new cards. I played some games with Phelix. It was a lot of fun. Here's my thoughts on some cards. B-teamers- not being able to GG is silly. If you have more cards when b-teamers comes out you can just deck your opponent. Path of the night- too powerful/slows the game massively. Osl Selection - too powerful Can you clairfy what you mean about B-Teamer? Well when it becomes the active progamer there is no way to force your opponent to attack it and it can't do any damage. So they can just leave it there and deck you. There should be the option to discard it at will. While your there :p when you upgrade to A-class or S-class do you remove all damage counters or are they carried onto the new progamer?
Damage stays on the progamer
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Can you do 0 dmg?
Or do you always do 1 even if it's an opponents strong MU?
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is awesome32274 Posts
Anyone want to play? come to irc, or make a game with starcraft in its name ill join.
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is awesome32274 Posts
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa come on
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United States1865 Posts
On June 22 2009 06:46 GTR wrote:
Can you upgrade a B-Teamer to a A-Class card?
Yeah. It also counts as a benched progamer of any team (this really shouldve been written on the card, i'll update it) for attacks that get bonus damage for benched progamers (such as iloveoov, much, etc.)
On June 22 2009 07:04 Klive5ive wrote:
Can you do 0 dmg?
Or do you always do 1 even if it's an opponents strong MU?
Yeah you can do 0.
For example If your attack does 2 damage and your opponenet's strong MU is your type, then it will be -2 down to 0.
qnother question, what about for example by.hero, who can attack and make the enemy fatugue, can i use both abilities or do i have to decide?
Same with skyhigh. Also the abilities (to mfatigue or make the slump) must be used in my turn right ( regarding by.hero and skyhigh) ?
You pick 1 attack at the end of your turn and do its effects. You cant use both at the same time, but on the next turn you could choose the other attack if you wanted.
Those abilities both count as attacks (the "make slump" "make fatigue") etc. They just have no damage, but act excactly the same as any other attack and end your turn accoridngly.
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On June 22 2009 01:39 Abydos1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2009 17:52 GTR wrote:
horang/andromeda is so imba. gust of wind needs to be included in the expansion definitely. Horang is imba as is; Andromeda means you need no attached team cards to use him. Also, python is overpowered; it can single handedly cripple any map based deck.
Python is overpowered ...? I don't think map-based decks are playable anyway...
also I'm not sure why people are clamoring for Gust of Wind; there's a reason it was never printed again after base set in Pokemon
Some sort of Gust variant might be be good though
btw if anyone wants to play nowish I'll play
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On June 22 2009 08:03 d1sh0ng wrote:
I'll play.
game made
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Thanks for the rules confirmations.
On June 22 2009 07:54 Gustav_Wind wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2009 01:39 Abydos1 wrote:On June 21 2009 17:52 GTR wrote:
horang/andromeda is so imba. gust of wind needs to be included in the expansion definitely. Horang is imba as is; Andromeda means you need no attached team cards to use him. Also, python is overpowered; it can single handedly cripple any map based deck. Python is overpowered ...? I don't think map-based decks are playable anyway... also I'm not sure why people are clamoring for Gust of Wind; there's a reason it was never printed again after base set in Pokemon Some sort of Gust variant might be be good though btw if anyone wants to play nowish I'll play
You haven't played his deck, it's awesome.
Horang2 + Andromeda is very nasty to play against. The copycat is just lame and annoying.
I think my deck is slightly better though. It's just a haymaker deck with lots of card control and imbalanced progamers with low GG costs.
edit: sorry I DCed Abydos :S
If you're around or anyone else im still looking for a game.
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gj but wheres the savior card man!(other than bonjwa)
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is awesome32274 Posts
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On June 22 2009 08:24 IntoTheWow wrote:
Anyone here?
Oh I started playing dishong >.>
he's playing a reallllly slow deck
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On June 22 2009 08:24 IntoTheWow wrote:
Anyone here?
you crashed my game dude, any ideas how to fix it?
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On June 22 2009 08:36 Klive5ive wrote:you crashed my game dude, any ideas how to fix it?
If it just gave you some random error when you connected, just try again and it should work
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is awesome32274 Posts
On June 22 2009 08:36 Klive5ive wrote:you crashed my game dude, any ideas how to fix it?
I crashed? ...
Anyways, try connecting directly through IP adress.
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is awesome32274 Posts
Anyone knows if Flash's special works even if hes in bench?
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Ok I finished my game with d1sh0ng, anyone want to play?
Flash's special works on the bench.
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On June 22 2009 09:01 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2009 08:36 Klive5ive wrote:On June 22 2009 08:24 IntoTheWow wrote:
Anyone here? you crashed my game dude, any ideas how to fix it? I crashed? ... Anyways, try connecting directly through IP adress.
Yeah I phrased that really badly :s
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United States1865 Posts
On June 22 2009 09:02 IntoTheWow wrote:
Anyone knows if Flash's special works even if hes in bench?
It does
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I'll probably never play my Kal deck again. Gustav didn't seem to have fun playing. Sorry for that. He surrendered after he was left with 3 cards in his deck and I choked his Kwanro and he failed the coin flip for the attack.
With all the card draw, this deck could really cause problems, but it relies too much on coin flips. I think I'll put this deck aside, the point of this game is fun, and I don't think my opponents will have fun playing against this deck.
Here's a list for anyone who wants it...
4 TheRock
4 keke
4 iloveoov
4 By.Baby
4 Nada
3 Kal
4 Starcraft 2 Hype
4 OSL Selection
4 TLPD
4 Poor Coaching
4 Fan Cheerfuls
12 WeMade Fox
5 STX Soul
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On June 22 2009 09:23 d1sh0ng wrote:
I'll probably never play my Kal deck again. Gustav didn't seem to have fun playing. Sorry for that. He surrendered after he was left with 3 cards in his deck and I choked his Kwanro and he failed the coin flip for the attack.
With all the card draw, this deck could really cause problems, but it relies too much on coin flips. I think I'll put this deck aside, the point of this game is fun, and I don't think my opponents will have fun playing against this deck.
Here's a list for anyone who wants it...
4 TheRock
4 keke
4 iloveoov
4 By.Baby
4 Nada
3 Kal
4 Starcraft 2 Hype
4 OSL Selection
4 TLPD
4 Poor Coaching
4 Fan Cheerfuls
12 WeMade Fox
5 STX Soul
It's no problem really. I was just a bit frustrated that coin flips played such an important role =P
I don't think the deck is good if the opponent knows how to play against it, but that's hard to do as I messed up significantly several times during our match. I don't think the deck the deck breaks the format...
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No way does it break the format. It's still too slow for Haymaker, I only won because of misplays. I still think Haymaker and Jaedong Dance are still the best decks.
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I think this deck is very strong:
+ Show Spoiler +
4 By.Baby
3 Iloveoov
3 Idra
3 By.Great
2 Nada
4 Sea.Pure
2 Inter.Mind
4 OSL selection
4 SC2 Hype
4 Korean Nets
4 Path of the Night
23 WeMade FOX
Sideboard:
4 Python for use against Andromeda decks
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On June 22 2009 09:45 Klive5ive wrote:I think this deck is very strong: + Show Spoiler +
4 By.Baby
3 Iloveoov
3 Idra
3 By.Great
2 Nada
4 Sea.Pure
2 Inter.Mind
4 OSL selection
4 SC2 Hype
4 Korean Nets
4 Path of the Night
23 WeMade FOX
Sideboard:
4 Python for use against Andromeda decks
You want to play some games?
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On June 22 2009 09:52 Gustav_Wind wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2009 09:45 Klive5ive wrote:I think this deck is very strong: + Show Spoiler +
4 By.Baby
3 Iloveoov
3 Idra
3 By.Great
2 Nada
4 Sea.Pure
2 Inter.Mind
4 OSL selection
4 SC2 Hype
4 Korean Nets
4 Path of the Night
23 WeMade FOX
Sideboard:
4 Python for use against Andromeda decks
You want to play some games?
sure i'm online now
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If anyone wants to play, IM ntrSleight and we can rumble.
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Question, how much base damage does Ganzi's Attack do Atrioc?
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United States1865 Posts
On June 22 2009 10:49 d1sh0ng wrote:
Question, how much base damage does Ganzi's Attack do Atrioc?
Its base is 1 (iirc with an additional 2 if the enemy is S-class).
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United States47024 Posts
What's the current ruling on mulligans? The opponent *can* choose to draw again, or do they have to?
EDIT: On second thought, mulligans have to be by choice, otherwise this deck:
1x Tossgirl
9999999999999x SKT1 Team
Would win almost every game.
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On June 22 2009 11:13 TheYango wrote:
What's the current ruling on mulligans? The opponent *can* choose to draw again, or do they have to?
Also, what happens if both players don't have basics?
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United States1865 Posts
On June 22 2009 11:13 TheYango wrote:
What's the current ruling on mulligans? The opponent *can* choose to draw again, or do they have to?
Can choose. Its not meant to be a penalty in any way to the player that didnt mulligan, so if they dont want to take the card they dont have to.
On June 22 2009 11:18 Gustav_Wind wrote:
Also, what happens if both players don't have basics?
Then both players shuffle their decks and draw 7 new cards - basically just starting over with no penalty to either side.
EDIT: On second thought, mulligans have to be by choice, otherwise this deck:
1x Tossgirl
9999999999999x SKT1 Team
Would win almost every game.
All decks have to be 60 cards, no more or less! (As exciting as a multi-trillion card deck would be....).
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United States47024 Posts
On June 22 2009 11:38 Atrioc wrote:
All decks have to be 60 cards, no more or less! (As exciting as a multi-trillion card deck would be....).
Ah. Missed that. Was going on MTG experience that 60+ decks are legal. Still, it would be fun to do a 1x basic progamer deck, as something reminiscent of a mill deck.
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I dare someone to make a better one based on MtG where KT isn't discriminated against.
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nahm this game is great as it is, it is just sad to see that the minimal effort to play the game onlinw now seems to scare away all people. If this game would be playable at tl.net through java or whatnot this could become a huge success like the livestreams =)
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Well I was put off because at a glance I thought it was like MotG's own online player.
Which is a massive file and takes hours to downloads and update.
Actually it only takes about 5 minutes.
I'm on IRC if someone wants a game.
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is awesome32274 Posts
Hello, anyone wants to game? im on irc
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I'm back, just join the game i'm hosting....
you won't like my new deck :p
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Another basic qustions =) :
1) can i upgrade players who are active (fighting)
2) can i upgrade a progamer and bring him into the fight in then same round?
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is awesome32274 Posts
Yes for both im pretty sure.
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This is my Bonjwa deck. It's too strong:
+ Show Spoiler +
4 OSL Select
4 Poker
4 SC2 hype
4 TLPD
4 Path of the Night
4 Korean Nets
4 Poor Coaching
4 IloveOov
4 Keke
4 By.Baby
4 TheRock
10 Wemade FOX
1 Osl
1 Msl
1 Msl 2nd
1 Msl 3rd
2 Savior the Mastro
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is awesome32274 Posts
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holy shit. nice card game.
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United States1865 Posts
On June 23 2009 01:51 Klive5ive wrote:This is my Bonjwa deck. It's too strong: + Show Spoiler +
4 OSL Select
4 Poker
4 SC2 hype
4 TLPD
4 Path of the Night
4 Korean Nets
4 Poor Coaching
4 IloveOov
4 Keke
4 By.Baby
4 TheRock
10 Wemade FOX
1 Osl
1 Msl
1 Msl 2nd
1 Msl 3rd
2 Savior the Mastro
It seems like it would be hard to gather all 5 bonjwa cards in your hand if you only have 1 of each? Do you really run through your whole deck that quickly?
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On June 23 2009 03:24 Atrioc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2009 01:51 Klive5ive wrote:This is my Bonjwa deck. It's too strong: + Show Spoiler +
4 OSL Select
4 Poker
4 SC2 hype
4 TLPD
4 Path of the Night
4 Korean Nets
4 Poor Coaching
4 IloveOov
4 Keke
4 By.Baby
4 TheRock
10 Wemade FOX
1 Osl
1 Msl
1 Msl 2nd
1 Msl 3rd
2 Savior the Mastro
It seems like it would be hard to gather all 5 bonjwa cards in your hand if you only have 1 of each? Do you really run through your whole deck that quickly?
Yes, I run through the deck that quickly.
ITW can confirm, I think I had a turn 2 win in one of our games. Turn 3 at least.
With TLPD, OSL select, Poker, SC2 Hype and even Oov you just burn through cards. It's quite possible to chain OSL selects together with Poker and SC2 hype.
Even if you get unlucky on the Bonjwa cards the deck doesn't have much trouble staying alive. The rock and keke are very tough and coupled with poor coaching barely die at all.
I didn't even incorporate Horang2 which is even more broken because with 2 mana he becomes invincible. Also I've just realised I should have added Fan Cheerfuls too.
I really like the quick card drawing; it makes the game exciting and fast paced. But the Bonjwa mechanic is undoubtedly broken at the moment.
Edit:
I'm on IRC now if you want a game
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yeah the bonjwa decks are broken as hell
i played sleight's list a few games both against someone on irc and against myself
out of 10 games, i got several turn 1 wins, only once did i go past turn 3 (it was oddly enough turn 7, really bad draw I guess).
edit: personally i would prefer a more mtg-like game and thats what i originally expected when i read the thread title, pokemon seems very simplistic and stale to me (and very reliant on coinflips and other arbitrary sources of randomness). its a cool idea, but its sad that the most interesting deck to me is the broken combo deck that probably nobody would want to play against me. its like this game most of the decks have the boringness worse than mtg alara block constructed vs this one random bonjwa deck idea that probably didnt take sleight that long to create that is mtg-vintage-broken lolwtf.
seems like with the sleight deck, early game is when you shuffle your deck and flip the coin, midgame is when you draw and place your progamers (read: ganzi) down facedown, and lategame is turn 1.
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United States1865 Posts
OSL Select, SC2 Hype, and GanZi are all getting rewrites for the eStro expansion so that should slow the whole thing down dramatically.
For now I would just play with a gentleman's agreement to not use the Bonjwa mechanic as I'm getting pretty straightforward evidence that its too easy to get it out, when its original intention was to be quite difficult.
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On June 23 2009 04:26 Atrioc wrote:
OSL Select, SC2 Hype, and GanZi are all getting rewrites for the eStro expansion so that should slow the whole thing down dramatically.
For now I would just play with a gentleman's agreement to not use the Bonjwa mechanic as I'm getting pretty straightforward evidence that its too easy to get it out, when its original intention was to be quite difficult.
Please let us discuss changes and agree as a group. Don't do a Blizzard.
Be careful with SC2 Hype and OSL Select because as I said they make most decks more fun to play.
Some possible changes:
All Bonjwa cards are unique. 1 per deck.
TLPD can't be used to find Bonjwa cards.
OSL Select draws 6 cards.
Poker draws 2/7 (2,7 off-suit is the worst hand in Poker; so that fits)
Horang2.. copycat should be 2 mana and remove his 2nd ability.
The Rock.. Lower his health to 8 and change his 2nd attack.
Nada... Lower the damage of his first attack to 3 damage.
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i think the issue is more fundamentally with the game with how specials can be played for no cost, either they have to be useless to the point of boringness, or they will be broken as shit.
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United States1865 Posts
I'm definitely not making these changes randomly with no input.
I've sent a bunch of PM's (and talked some with ITW on IRC) about possible changes and what seems to need fixing. The GanZi change comes out of a long PM dialouge with Sleight.
To be more open: the current plan for OSL Select/SC2 Hype is to keep their same effect but add in a requirment that they cannot be played if you have already used another special card that turn, and you cant use special cards the rest of the turn after you play it.
This means the card have their amazing individual effect but cannot be massively chained through your deck by pulling multiple Sc2 hype / OSL Selects in a turn. It makes them more of a tactical choice without reducing their power (SC2 Hype - for instance - really had no drawback at all).
Thanks for your suggestions - the Horang2 and TLPD ones are really nice and seem to be the consensus among other people i've talked to! NaDa as well, though I dont know if his first attack should have its damage lowered or if its team card cost should be increased.
As for TheRock - what are your thoughts on a simple increase in his GG cost?
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On June 23 2009 04:45 anotak wrote:
i think the issue is more fundamentally with the game with how specials can be played for no cost, either they have to be useless to the point of boringness, or they will be broken as shit.
Wow, you give up easy.
I think the cost should be cards.
More aggressive decks will need to win fast or deck themselves. Powerful cards could come with the cost of discarding cards from your Library.
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On June 23 2009 05:04 Atrioc wrote:
I'm definitely not making these changes randomly with no input.
I've sent a bunch of PM's (and talked some with ITW on IRC) about possible changes and what seems to need fixing. The GanZi change comes out of a long PM dialouge with Sleight.
To be more open: the current plan for OSL Select/SC2 Hype is to keep their same effect but add in a requirment that they cannot be played if you have already used another special card that turn, and you cant use special cards the rest of the turn after you play it.
This means the card have their amazing individual effect but cannot be massively chained through your deck by pulling multiple Sc2 hype / OSL Selects in a turn. It makes them more of a tactical choice without reducing their power (SC2 Hype - for instance - really had no drawback at all).
Thanks for your suggestions - the Horang2 and TLPD ones are really nice and seem to be the consensus among other people i've talked to! NaDa as well, though I dont know if his first attack should have its damage lowered or if its team card cost should be increased.
As for TheRock - what are your thoughts on a simple increase in his GG cost?
Oh fantastic.
I really like the idea of SC2 Hype being the only special card that turn.
Making Nada more team coloured would make sense. The only general danger I see is that there are LOTS of teams in the game and when making a deck this limits your choices quite a lot. Basically I think there needs to be more colourless card.
Well TheRock can only really be used for stalling.
Also if you want to remove him you can use his attack to kill himself.
Basically the decks which would use Rock wouldn't really want to GG him anyway. "Poor coaching" for example is a good when used with Rock.
In General I like GG costs to be low because swapping progamers in and out brings a lot of tactics.
In the current set cards like Pure are really fun to use (even if he is overpowered). I'd like to see more 0GG cost cards in the next set.
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I think Osl Selection/TLPD are good examples of cards that should be similar to the support cards in pokemon where you can only play one a turn. I think the game as is could use some extra searching and some discard mechanics too (control in general); obviously these shouldn't be too strong. Stuff like reordering the top n cards of your deck. Here's some stuff I was brainstorming:
Preparation: Look at the opponents hand and choose one card to discard.
Mind Games: Discard one card at random: Your opponent discards two cards at random.
Also I think we could use a special to discard the current map and tone down python a bit; as is Python can pretty much single handedly shut down any map-based deck (and I'd personally like to see some more map based mechanics seeing play).
I'd also like to see more map cards and we were brainstorming some ideas for global effects the other day in irc. One idea that was brought up was a forge/evo/ebay card which you could somehow pump to increase that races attack (possibly only your players of that race, possibly all players); I'd suggested attaching energy to it (although that could be a little strong), there were thoughts of a counter mechanic with it.
Here's a couple ideas I had for global effects:
Good Scouting: Opponent plays with the top card of their library revealed
Contain: Your opponent can not attach team cards to their active progamer
Macro Game: The active progamer with higher stamina does +1 damage
Micro Game: The active progamer with lower stamina does +1 damage
Fast moving game: Slumping progamer's take 1 damage at the end of each turn (before check for not slumping)
And here's some ideas I had for maps:
Outsider: Active Progamers have "Discard (T): opp becomes fatigued"
Demon's Forest: Basic progamers can be played face-down (reveal them if this goes out of play, they become active, they take damage, or they are upgraded)
Battle Royal: Zerg have +2 stamina
Neo-Requiem: Attacks costing 2 or less energy do +1 damage (only if it does damage)
Blue Storm: Progamers can't attack on the turn they become active
Also, from what I've seen an energy discarding deck with Netizens and Path of the Night seems hard to counter; especially since there's nothing like counter spells or control like in magic to prevent your opponent from doing much.
I also think the game could use basic progamers of each race that are strong against each other race, ie. Terran's that are good v T, P, Z. Just something basic like:
XXX Cycle (Basic): 4 Stamina, (T): 1, Strong v YYY
to help provide some filler.
Lastly I'd love to see rarities added so we could have drafts and sealed play (not sure what the pokemon rules are regarding it).
Anyway, just my 2 cents so far; great work though, its nice to see a tcg based on progaming Althought I do agree with Anotak that I personally like the complexities of magic more so than what I've seen of the pokemon rules; the Pokemon ruleset seems to make more sense gameplay wise in simulating progaming though.
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On June 23 2009 05:16 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2009 05:04 Atrioc wrote:
I'm definitely not making these changes randomly with no input.
I've sent a bunch of PM's (and talked some with ITW on IRC) about possible changes and what seems to need fixing. The GanZi change comes out of a long PM dialouge with Sleight.
To be more open: the current plan for OSL Select/SC2 Hype is to keep their same effect but add in a requirment that they cannot be played if you have already used another special card that turn, and you cant use special cards the rest of the turn after you play it.
This means the card have their amazing individual effect but cannot be massively chained through your deck by pulling multiple Sc2 hype / OSL Selects in a turn. It makes them more of a tactical choice without reducing their power (SC2 Hype - for instance - really had no drawback at all).
Thanks for your suggestions - the Horang2 and TLPD ones are really nice and seem to be the consensus among other people i've talked to! NaDa as well, though I dont know if his first attack should have its damage lowered or if its team card cost should be increased.
As for TheRock - what are your thoughts on a simple increase in his GG cost?
Oh fantastic. I really like the idea of SC2 Hype being the only special card that turn. Making Nada more team coloured would make sense. The only general danger I see is that there are LOTS of teams in the game and when making a deck this limits your choices quite a lot. Basically I think there needs to be more colourless card. Well TheRock can only really be used for stalling. Also if you want to remove him you can use his attack to kill himself. Basically the decks which would use Rock wouldn't really want to GG him anyway. "Poor coaching" for example is a good when used with Rock. In General I like GG costs to be low because swapping progamers in and out brings a lot of tactics. In the current set cards like Pure are really fun to use (even if he is overpowered). I'd like to see more 0GG cost cards in the next set.
Cube (I think) had a nice RH3 deck that was swapping Terran progamers out that I liked. I think gg'ing is an important feature but shouldn't be too cheap that every deck is going to be using it. Also if gust of wind is too powerful maybe something like "GG the opponent's active progamer, they must pick a different progamer to become active (can't be used if they have no benched progamers)".
As for Nada 4 attack for 2 colorless is very powerful; reducing it to 3 damage seems fine or perhaps upping the cost (maybe adding some team cost to it).
Also, why did you remove the prize card mechanic that pokemon uses? It seems to be very influential in the flow of the game with card drawing.
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51449 Posts
Cube's RH3 deck is easily counterable with a Python/Anti-Terran deck (I made one and it just creamed him).
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United States1865 Posts
On June 23 2009 05:44 GTR wrote:
Cube's RH3 deck is easily counterable with a Python/Anti-Terran deck (I made one and it just creamed him).
Well haha yeah if you know what deck hes gonna run - but in general I dont think its a good idea to go in blind with a Python // Anti-Terran deck.
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Klive - you know that the Bonjwa cards are not Special cards right? You need to have all 5 in your hand at the same time in order to win, making your 1-ofs deck pretty pointless.
Also, running 4x Poker seems pretty loose unless you plan on winning most of your coin flips.
Atrioc - the changes you suggest to SC2/OSL seem reasonable. However, I don't actually think that SC2/OSL were problematic before, despite being extremely efficient card drawers, as long as there is not a mechanic like Bonjwa. Being able to OSL through your deck to Bonjwa win is bad for the game. Being able to OSL through your deck to set up is not when everyone can do it.
Abydos, Atrioc & everyone else: Just because the card draw/selection engine is really, really good does not make it bad for gameplay. In fact, I'd argue that it decreases the variance because it allows both players to get their decks to do what they are designed to do, every game.
Mechanics like disruption and coin flips, however, are obnoxious and bad for the game when poorly designed. Abydos, the Preparation and Mind Games card would be examples of cards that are both obnoxious and increase the variance in the game. Atrioc, cards like Pure often cause the game state to swing significantly on the result of a single coin flip.
Obviously the card draw/selection engine would cause problems if combined with cards like the ones Abydos suggested, or the Bonjwa card, but I argue that the problem is not with the card drawers.
Atrioc, I know you said that you are not just making changes randomly, but your PMs and IRC conversations are not accessible to the rest of us. So far everyone posting here is just saying things that need to be changed without giving reasons for why they are detrimental for gameplay. If you disagree with me argue your points with reasons to support them and I'll be glad to consider them.
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The rock is always used in combination with poor coaching, so that he can tank 11 dmg and comes fresh from hand without dmg.
Increasing gg cost wouldnt do too much.
Also i would like to give you more ideas to "nerf" those fast decks like
1) a map that does not allow special cards
2) a speical card as special card conter to conter only the positive effect of a soecial card ( in case of osl selec you must pay all you cards but u cannot draw any)
3) make special cards or palyers effects that forces youe enemy to discard some cards from his library.
this helps against bonjwa decks since 1 missing card screws you over
and
it also helps vs fast draw decks with poker/sc2hype/osl, because those decks use a huge amount of cards, in combination with dorced discarding those players will face the situation where he cannot draw anymore > gg
(note: the card could well be a doubled edge sword like "both players discard x cards from the top of their library" since if you are smart your deck will not be as fast as your enemies ^^ )
4) a card/ability to steal a card from thediscarded cards of your enemy, would work well together with the cards mentioned above+ osl/msl selec
Another thing maybe worth mentioning, except sea.shield and jaedong there are not much cards to conter "neizen" and night life"
"neizen and "night life" make the game "low eco".
This plus the fact that some of those ungradeable basic cards ( yes i am looking at you oov! and iris!) are almost on s-lvl cards with their great stamina and damage output makes it hard to get out later tier gamers.( edit: since i know now you can upgrade gamers in fights this might not be too true/accurate anymore )
At the end questions like always:
1)Can i upgrade a active and fighting progamer? ( before he attacks ofc^^ )
2) can for examplebackho fish me out 1 basic gamer per round into my hand when, and can he do it sitting on my bench? Or does it only work once and/or only when he is active fighting?
3) If my gamer is weak vs P , does it affect when i attack a P or only when i am getting attacked by a P?
4) If my jaedong is good vs z and attacks calm who is weak vs z do i get stacked bonus of +4 or only +2
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United States1865 Posts
On June 23 2009 07:16 Teejing wrote:
At the end questions like always:
1)Can i upgrade a active and fighting progamer? ( before he attacks ofc^^ )
2) can for examplebackho fish me out 1 basic gamer per round into my hand when, and can he do it sitting on my bench? Or does it only work once and/or only when he is active fighting?
3) If my gamer is weak vs P , does it affect when i attack a P or only when i am getting attacked by a P?
4) If my jaedong is good vs z and attacks calm who is weak vs z do i get stacked bonus of +4 or only +2
1. Yeah, as long as its not the same turn he was played from your hand (and you cant upgrade the same guy twice in one turn either)
2. Well the "OSL Tiebreakers" thing is one of BackHo's attacks, so it counts as an attack. You have to be the active progamer to use it, and it ends your turn once you use it.
3. Only when you are getting attacked. A good way to remember it is: when you are attacking - you never look at the Strong/Weak matchups of your own card, only the card that you are attacking.
4. Same answer as #3 - so no, you only get a bonus of +2 (from your enemy's weak MU). Strong matchups only help your own guys receive less damage, not dish out extra.
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Thx alot for answering =)
Are jangbi´s stalement, by.heroes "high apm", by greats "proy hatchery" the same? So all those abilities work like an attack with no dmg?
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On June 23 2009 07:16 Teejing wrote:
3) make special cards or palyers effects that forces youe enemy to discard some cards from his library.
this helps against bonjwa decks since 1 missing card screws you over
and
it also helps vs fast draw decks with poker/sc2hype/osl, because those decks use a huge amount of cards, in combination with dorced discarding those players will face the situation where he cannot draw anymore > gg
(note: the card could well be a doubled edge sword like "both players discard x cards from the top of their library" since if you are smart your deck will not be as fast as your enemies ^^
milling does not generate card [dis]advantage of any kind, if that's what you're implying, and milling is still a cheap/trivial cost
On June 23 2009 06:49 Gustav_Wind wrote:
Abydos, Atrioc & everyone else: Just because the card draw/selection engine is really, really good does not make it bad for gameplay. In fact, I'd argue that it decreases the variance because it allows both players to get their decks to do what they are designed to do, every game.
Mechanics like disruption and coin flips, however, are obnoxious and bad for the game when poorly designed. Abydos, the Preparation and Mind Games card would be examples of cards that are both obnoxious and increase the variance in the game. Atrioc, cards like Pure often cause the game state to swing significantly on the result of a single coin flip.
Obviously the card draw/selection engine would cause problems if combined with cards like the ones Abydos suggested, or the Bonjwa card, but I argue that the problem is not with the card drawers.
Atrioc, I know you said that you are not just making changes randomly, but your PMs and IRC conversations are not accessible to the rest of us. So far everyone posting here is just saying things that need to be changed without giving reasons for why they are detrimental for gameplay. If you disagree with me argue your points with reasons to support them and I'll be glad to consider them.
as a combo player in MTG, the bonjwa decks are by far the most interesting decks to me to play. Combo decks don't have to overpowered, the thing that makes this deck overpowered is being able to do everything for free in one turn. it's really cool to be able to play through all your deck like that, the part that's not cool is it being basically undisruptable/uncounterable by your opponent and possible on turn 1. i don't know though, in general the decks that aren't overpowered on the other hand seem to be boringly slow
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Fast decks use up alot of cards, when you force him to discard some more from his library he will end up with 0 cards in his library which is a lose condition
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United States47024 Posts
On June 23 2009 09:10 Teejing wrote:
Fast decks use up alot of cards, when you force him to discard some more from his library he will end up with 0 cards in his library which is a lose condition
Even if you played out 4x OSL Selection and 4x SC2 Hype, you still have 17 turns before you lose. That's fairly long by most TCG standards. And the chances that you will play out all 8 copies of those cards is very slim.
Mill doesn't affect the game-state. Unless your opponent is specifically building to mill you (not exactly easy, seeing as there's an extremely small number of relevant cards that do it), it has no effect on average on the game.
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Thats why i did suggest to implement such cards with the new cards coming, also you missed out msl selec/poker.
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is awesome32274 Posts
poor coaching is still broken with rock, even if you add gg cost.
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On June 23 2009 06:49 Gustav_Wind wrote:
Klive - you know that the Bonjwa cards are not Special cards right? You need to have all 5 in your hand at the same time in order to win, making your 1-ofs deck pretty pointless.
Also, running 4x Poker seems pretty loose unless you plan on winning most of your coin flips.
Atrioc - the changes you suggest to SC2/OSL seem reasonable. However, I don't actually think that SC2/OSL were problematic before, despite being extremely efficient card drawers, as long as there is not a mechanic like Bonjwa. Being able to OSL through your deck to Bonjwa win is bad for the game. Being able to OSL through your deck to set up is not when everyone can do it.
Abydos, Atrioc & everyone else: Just because the card draw/selection engine is really, really good does not make it bad for gameplay. In fact, I'd argue that it decreases the variance because it allows both players to get their decks to do what they are designed to do, every game.
Mechanics like disruption and coin flips, however, are obnoxious and bad for the game when poorly designed. Abydos, the Preparation and Mind Games card would be examples of cards that are both obnoxious and increase the variance in the game. Atrioc, cards like Pure often cause the game state to swing significantly on the result of a single coin flip.
Obviously the card draw/selection engine would cause problems if combined with cards like the ones Abydos suggested, or the Bonjwa card, but I argue that the problem is not with the card drawers.
Atrioc, I know you said that you are not just making changes randomly, but your PMs and IRC conversations are not accessible to the rest of us. So far everyone posting here is just saying things that need to be changed without giving reasons for why they are detrimental for gameplay. If you disagree with me argue your points with reasons to support them and I'll be glad to consider them.
Maybe I misread the rules, they're ambiguous. I read it as to play a Bonjwa card from your hand you must have already played all the titles.
It would weaken the deck no doubt.
Even if I needed them all in my hand I could win the vast majority.
I agree strongly with your other points.
Card drawing is important to the game and shouldn't really be nerfed. If anything there needs to be more ways to draw. Spells that remove cards slow the game down.
I also agree that coin-flips are very annoying and should be avoided.
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Also I wanted to add that I really don't like Path of the Night and Korean Netizens.
Those cards are too powerful and slow the game drastically.
On June 23 2009 09:38 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2009 09:10 Teejing wrote:
Fast decks use up alot of cards, when you force him to discard some more from his library he will end up with 0 cards in his library which is a lose condition
Even if you played out 4x OSL Selection and 4x SC2 Hype, you still have 17 turns before you lose. That's fairly long by most TCG standards. And the chances that you will play out all 8 copies of those cards is very slim. Mill doesn't affect the game-state. Unless your opponent is specifically building to mill you (not exactly easy, seeing as there's an extremely small number of relevant cards that do it), it has no effect on average on the game.
Cards like TLPD, FanCheerfuls, IloveOov all mill through cards and 17 turns is not a long time to survive in this format.
I really like the idea of having to kill your opponent fast or deck yourself.
On June 23 2009 12:52 IntoTheWow wrote:
poor coaching is still broken with rock, even if you add gg cost.
Agree.
Although I think it's TheRock that's broken, not poor coaching.
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United States1865 Posts
To clarify: You need all 5 bonjwa cards in your hand at the same time. You cant play them anywhere and wait until you get more - you have to play all 5 at once from your hand.
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On June 23 2009 15:56 Atrioc wrote:
To clarify: You need all 5 bonjwa cards in your hand at the same time. You cant play them anywhere and wait until you get more - you have to play all 5 at once from your hand.
So is it kind of like the exodia pieces in yugioh, where if you get all five you immediately win?
regardless, I need to check this out immediately
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The Bonjwa mechanic is not broken. You need 4of 5 cards that are useless until you actually win. OSL, SCII, TLPD, Ganzi are the problems. In MTG, you don't ban the kill card, you ban the engine. There was a series of decks that could 'go off' turn 1 or 2 and kill with 1 of 3 different cards or by just playing a lot of spells in Extended a couple years back. Turns out, it wasn't the kill, it was the card Tinker that let them generate card advantage that it didn't matter what they did, they'd end up overwhelming the opponent.
Atrioc changes are the most ideal. This way, Bonjwa combo is still viable and everyone gets an opportunity to still use the great effects of OSL or SCII but they will require very judicious timing.
And the Rock+Poor Coaching is not 'broken,' it is 'strong.' Broken wins the game. Strong is difficult to deal with. Bonjwa right now is 'broken.' As in, cannot be fixed. The Rock can be beaten and all it does is delay the game. It wins nothing and if meanwhile, you are going to town with any number of good strategies, you will survive, regardless of the increased game duration.
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Btw. what is up with all those coinflips? ^^
For example requim could easy be changed into a card that does not need coinflip, like
"each players ccan transfer 1 damage counter from 1 pro to another"
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Would it be possible to make the card game playable on the site? That would be dreamy...
Sad to see coinflips as a major mechanic in the game.
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I think map cards are a bit too weak right now, i would suggest that the plaer who plays a map card can draw a bonus card.
This could lead to some spam of map cards, but it always can be contered by the python cards.
Also if someone spams map cards in an extreme way he could very well run out of cards if combined with fast decks.
Maybe map cards would become too strong i do not know now, but right now they are not of any worth.
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On June 23 2009 20:59 Sleight wrote:
The Bonjwa mechanic is not broken. You need 4of 5 cards that are useless until you actually win. OSL, SCII, TLPD, Ganzi are the problems. In MTG, you don't ban the kill card, you ban the engine. There was a series of decks that could 'go off' turn 1 or 2 and kill with 1 of 3 different cards or by just playing a lot of spells in Extended a couple years back. Turns out, it wasn't the kill, it was the card Tinker that let them generate card advantage that it didn't matter what they did, they'd end up overwhelming the opponent.
Atrioc changes are the most ideal. This way, Bonjwa combo is still viable and everyone gets an opportunity to still use the great effects of OSL or SCII but they will require very judicious timing.
And the Rock+Poor Coaching is not 'broken,' it is 'strong.' Broken wins the game. Strong is difficult to deal with. Bonjwa right now is 'broken.' As in, cannot be fixed. The Rock can be beaten and all it does is delay the game. It wins nothing and if meanwhile, you are going to town with any number of good strategies, you will survive, regardless of the increased game duration.
You're contradicting yourself.
Cards like Horang2 and TheRock could be considered the "engine" for Bonjwa decks just as much as the card drawing mechanics.
When making a change you have to consider the effect it has. TheRock is boring and slows the game whilst OSL and SC2 allow all decks to function more swiftly.
The only thing more annoying than topdecking for turn on turn is facing TheRock.
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I think your reason for wanting to errata TheRock is because it is boring and annoying. In this format we have all TheRock can do is stall. I played a stall deck against Gustav_Wind and because of Korean Neitzens, I was unable to attack until the turn before Gustav conceded with a Kal that was sitting on the bench all game.
Sleight is completely right, there is nothing wrong with TheRock. I mean with the Haymaker deck just bring out Kwanro and just beat him down, they can't flip heads forever. I think people need to realize to throw out the concept of "fun" when determining a card to be broken. The Bonjwa mechanic is broken because it can win on Turn 2 because of the ease of card draw and search. All the TheRock does is make sure you don't die to a Haymaker deck in 5 minutes.
And to perserve the fun factor of the game because there are no tournaments I won't play this Kal deck any longer. I don't people being bored when playing me. But honestly I have more fun playing with/against a Stall deck than a Haymaker deck. Getting killed in 5 minutes just isn't fun to me. I like long drawn out games.
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On June 24 2009 00:02 Klive5ive wrote:
TheRock is boring and slows the game
On June 24 2009 01:23 d1sh0ng wrote:
I think your reason for wanting to errata TheRock is because it is boring and annoying.
Give this man a medal.
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Proving my point, the card is not broken is it boring and annoying.
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On June 24 2009 04:40 d1sh0ng wrote:
Proving my point, the card is not broken is it boring and annoying.
It proves you say moronic things, that's all.
We both agree that the Bonjwa mechanic is broken.
Doing the measure I mentioned, which includes nerfing the stalling cards solves the problem.
Nerfing the card drawing techniques could also solve the problem with other measures.
One solution makes the game more boring the other makes it less boring. Even you admit that TheRock is boring.
Now think about your position carefully. You are seriously advocating the boring approach when there are other options?
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On June 24 2009 03:16 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2009 01:23 d1sh0ng wrote:
I think your reason for wanting to errata TheRock is because it is boring and annoying. Give this man a medal.
lol'd
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The other option is frankly not needed. You are requesting a change of a card because you did not have a good time. Yes it slows the game down, but you can't shut out Stall as an archetype.
Right now the game is more geared towards a rush strategy with smaller basic progamers. TheRock works well in this format because of these basic progamers. They do not hit for a lot and take several turns to retire TheRock. This gives TheRock plenty of opportunities to use Unphased. I think power level of the S-Class progamers is very low which makes TheRock more powerful. In addition, the presence of Korean Neitzens and The Path of the Night make it even harder for the S-Class progamers to be effective. What this does is allows TheRock to soak up more damage. Flipping tails isn't the end of the world. If you had several effective S-Class progamers than could potentially one or two hit TheRock, you couldn't get away with flipping tails. And sure Poor Coaching would delay the retirement of TheRock, but that wouldn't stop a say S-Class breathing down your neck with a powerful attack next turn. Usually when someone thinks a card is too powerful its because other cards aren't able to be efficient. I think that is the case with S-Class and Neitzens/Path. Once we get S-Classes that are more powerful, TheRock will be less effective.
And you claim that TheRock is part of the "engine". My definition of the card engine are the cards used to set up your card combo. I will agree Horang2 can technically be a part of the engine if it copies Ganzi's search, but TheRock does not help achieve getting any of the bonjwa cards into your hand. It can stall to help draw into the engine but that is about it.
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could somebody in the know inform me whether stall is more akin to fog decks in mtg or control? anything like mtg control seems impossible in this system, a possible reason for combo decks to be broken...
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If this game cannot be played over tl.net i guess it is doomed to die =(
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United States17042 Posts
On June 25 2009 23:56 Teejing wrote:
If this game cannot be played over tl.net i guess it is doomed to die =(
I bet (Hope?) people are working on it xD
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is awesome32274 Posts
Nobody plays anymore?
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I'll play with anyone who wants to.
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51449 Posts
ETA on Expansion packs? I would play but the game is simply imbalanced at the moment.
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If i were to take the card game seriously it would require ditching the coinflip mechanic.
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WOW, i cant believe this is a real card game lololol. But im not surprised since it is so popular.
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true, coinflips should be erased from this game.
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