EPT[Guide] The Starcraft Progamer Trading Card Game - Page 11
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jodogohoo
Canada2533 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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ndralcasid
United States524 Posts
Here's my deck + Show Spoiler + Gamers(20): 4 ForGG 4 iloveoov 4 Iris 4 Kwanro 4 Tempest Map(4): 4 Andromeda Special(14) 4 Starcraft 2 Hype 3 Liquidpedia 3 TLPD 4 OSL Group Selection Energies(22) 12 CJ 10 KTF | ||
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I3oxerfan
215 Posts
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Celial
2602 Posts
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Splunge
Germany925 Posts
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nttea
Sweden4353 Posts
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SirKibbleX
United States479 Posts
Whenever the expansion comes out, please add some way to deal with Oz. July's new name for me: ArcanineZerg : D | ||
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SirKibbleX
United States479 Posts
On June 15 2009 12:53 Sleight wrote: For one, the above post is NOT the way to run a deck-simulation. It would take about a few days to get a simple Java app up and running to build and practice decks, but having user interface would take awhile. Using Magic Workstation is the winning plan. On that note, we should get a teamliquid server setup on it. And this man deserves all the beta keys. Sidenote: As a once Pro MTG player... I can safely say that there are actually 2 nigh unbeatable decks in the current environment. Sigh. And yes... I am qualified to make that decision, it took about 4 seconds to pick out ridiculous strategies. Also, just curious Sleight, but what deck do you think can beat Oz with the TLPD+OSL engine? I'm guessing Bonjwa... Gambling with mages never is. | ||
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Sleight
2471 Posts
Again. Please stop referring to Pokemon names, the game is a joke. This is based off pokemon, but, hopefully, it will end up much more dynamic. It is not in fact, pokemon, largely because of the increased random element and the fact that there isn't the same Rock-Paper-Scissors style of setup. Actual play skill will matter given the ungodly low power level of most of the cards and the lack of outlets for otherwise powerful engines. | ||
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Wivyx
Norway624 Posts
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Gustav_Wind
United States646 Posts
On June 16 2009 01:05 Sleight wrote: For one, don't call it Oak+CS, that's pokemon and oblique. You are referring to TLPD and OSL, I believe. The cards are unreal. But I haven't seen an Oz deck worth anything. Deck list? So far, I can safely say I have seen no deck actually pick out the easy winning strategies. The 2 lists Ive built should lead to 1 card being banned and 1 getting errata'd. Again. Please stop referring to Pokemon names, the game is a joke. This is based off pokemon, but, hopefully, it will end up much more dynamic. It is not in fact, pokemon, largely because of the increased random element and the fact that there isn't the same Rock-Paper-Scissors style of setup. Actual play skill will matter given the ungodly low power level of most of the cards and the lack of outlets for otherwise powerful engines. Iris/iloveoov/Kwanro + Andromeda haymaker? With TLPD, OSL, and SC2 Hype it should be easy to fill up your bench and have Iris and iloveoov do massive amounts of damage. Jaedong/Korean Netizens/Path of Night team denial? Once Jaedong is active, Path of Night is devastating. Light could be good in the deck but I'm not sure. Also not sure what the main damage-dealer would be. | ||
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PanoRaMa
United States5069 Posts
I was also thinking the sheer speed of Oov will be able to compensate for Oz builds simply cuz there are no equivalents of breeders right now meaning they couldn't get the Oz going by round 2. Like I said before, it'll depend largely on how the Oz decks are being used, whether or not Jaedong is the actual active player or not (haven't really looked to see if there were any other strong Oz players). The KeSPA Interference is going to be huge and is what I'm assuming replaces GoW. Sleight, why don't you just tell us what the imba deck is? If anything it'll contribute towards balancing, it's not like withholding this information is going to lead to get you anything. Also the lack of "otherwise powerful engines" probably has to do with the fact that this is a 105-card set. At the moment it's pretty much following more or less the same metagame flow as the original TCG, with it coming down to a few viable decks based on speed alone. Expansions brought a lot of depth once the concept of locking down as a form of disruption was introduced, obsoleting some archetypes, buffering some, and creating new. I can't speak for how it is once they started introducing more than the original 150 because that's around when I stopped, but until then (Neo set I believe?) the competitive scene wasn't so much RPS but rather understanding the metagame and adjusting to it as best as possible. But you seem to have a good idea about the original TCG, were you on the Pojo or original pokegym boards? Edit: One thing that should be mentioned though is that they introduced statistical variance to a great deal in the original card game (which is reflected here). Flipping coins is an awful way to go about a skill game, and imo should be limited as much as possible. There's already enough variance associated with "good draws" ;x. On June 16 2009 03:56 Gustav_Wind wrote: How come people aren't running 4x Fan Cheerfuls in every deck? Replacing 4 team cards with 4 Fan Cheerfuls is basically a strict improvement... If there ever comes a time when Specials can be locked down via a Progamer Special or a Map, etc. these sorts of Specials will be worthless. Prob the short answer for now is, removing 4 Team Cards from your deck makes you too low-econ for lack of better word (especially in the environment right now wherein the Specials selection is narrow and so most likely everyone will be running forms of Team Card disruption in their deck), and is not made up for the benefit of being able to search your deck for free. | ||
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SirKibbleX
United States479 Posts
If Neo-Medusa is out, can playing tempest potential retire an opposing Progamer? What if I also have a progamer that would be retired by 'disabling' the map momentarily? Can I create a two-turn map lock on Python with Tempest? Would I need to if I can disable the map any time I want? And how do things work if there are two opposing Tempests out (dear God, please don't let KTF clone him)? Anyways, as long as maps aren't giving you problems, it shouldn't be too challenging without a Gust of Wind or Warp Point (way to force a benched Tempest into the booth) to lock maps out, so there's really no need to use them aside from gaining an even greater advantage for yourself, which hopefully your deck should inherently have since your opponent has dead cards in his Maps. Here is the decklist I'm currently building to test: + Show Spoiler + Jaedong the Wizard of Oz 21 Progamers: S-class: 4 4x n.die.Jaedong A-class: 6 2x Light 2x Nada 1x Hiya 1x Jangbi Upgradable Basic: 8 3x Tempest 1x Baby 4x By-Great Non-upgradable Basics: 3 3x Iloveoov Special: 18 4 OSL Selection 4 TLPD 2 Korean Netizens 3 Path of the Night 2 Liquipedia 3 KeSPA interference Team Cards: 21 21 OZ Team ------------------------------------------- Team Card Economy might be a little low, but hopefully denial won't be prevalent enough that it will be a problem. If denial gets to be too serious a problem, I'll probably cut some more Basics and Liquipedia. Liquipedia-type cards have not served me as well as I would often like in other card games. Also there doesn't seem to be as much of a well-defined crucial breakpoint (70 hp in Pokemon, for example) for damage that needs to be dealt. With no forced bench swapping effects, Liquipedia also seems to lose a little of its appeal. Further, a deck that doesn't realistically see many opportunities for turn 1 insta-win "Cheesing" (such as Piano attacking an opposing iloveoov turn 1 with 2 liquipedias for an instant game win) doesn't really need the option. Since this is kind of an unknown metagame and all, however, I think 2 is fine for now :D Also, I'd like to highlight the fact that I think just the branching 'evolution' trees is enough to make this game much different from the pokemon scene was. Play will probably be much more elaborate thanks to a much tighter weakness system as well. Also, to answer why not everyone should use 4x Fan Cheerfuls, its because, ironically enough, the fact that the card selection is so good means that frequently players will want specific single cards in their deck to select for specific situations. When you only have sixty slots in your deck and you need to maximize your techs, economy, card selection engine, and instantaneous effects, you can very easily run out of space. Cheerfuls only give you a small bonus to your engine at the cost of precious slots. | ||
Atrioc
United States1865 Posts
On June 16 2009 06:08 SirKibbleX wrote: First of all, I'd like to get a really clear ruling on Tempest. MapHax.dec seems like it might be a little scary right now. For example, can I choose to disable only part of a map's effect, like just disabling Andromeda's -1 attack power function, but leaving on the extra Team Energy? If Neo-Medusa is out, can playing tempest potential retire an opposing Progamer? What if I also have a progamer that would be retired by 'disabling' the map momentarily? Can I create a two-turn map lock on Python with Tempest? Would I need to if I can disable the map any time I want? And how do things work if there are two opposing Tempests out (dear God, please don't let KTF clone him)? Anyways, as long as maps aren't giving you problems, it shouldn't be too challenging without a Gust of Wind or Warp Point (way to force a benched Tempest into the booth) to lock maps out, so there's really no need to use them aside from gaining an even greater advantage for yourself, which hopefully your deck should inherently have since your opponent has dead cards in his Maps. Here is the decklist I'm currently building to test: + Show Spoiler + Jaedong the Wizard of Oz 22 Progamers: S-class: 4 4x n.die.Jaedong A-class: 6 2x Light 2x Nada 1x Hiya 1x Jangbi Upgradable Basic: 8 3x Tempest 1x Baby 4x By-Great Non-upgradable Basics: 4 3x Iloveoov Special: 18 4 OSL Selection 4 TLPD 2 Korean Netizens 3 Path of the Night 2 Liquipedia 3 KeSPA interference Team Cards: 21 21 OZ Team ------------------------------------------- Team Card Economy might be a little low, but hopefully denial won't be prevalent enough that it will be a problem. If denial gets to be too serious a problem, I'll probably cut some more Basics and Liquipedia. Liquipedia-type cards have not served me as well as I would often like in other card games. Also there doesn't seem to be as much of a well-defined crucial breakpoint (70 hp in Pokemon, for example) for damage that needs to be dealt. With no forced bench swapping effects, Liquipedia also seems to lose a little of its appeal. Further, a deck that doesn't realistically see many opportunities for turn 1 insta-win "Cheesing" doesn't really need the option. Also, I'd like to highlight the fact that I think just the branching 'evolution' trees is enough to make this game much different from the pokemon scene was. Play will probably be much more elaborate thanks to a much tighter weakness system as well. Also, to answer why not everyone should use 4x Fan Cheerfuls, its because, ironically enough, the fact that the card selection is so good means that frequently players will want specific single cards in their deck to select for specific situations. When you only have sixty slots in your deck and you need to maximize your techs, economy, card selection engine, and instantaneous effects, you can very easily run out of space. Cheerfuls only give you a small bonus to your engine at the cost of precious slots. To clarify on Tempest's progamer ability (I will update the wording in the eStro expansion set): You can only disregard the map card as a whole, not any individual parts of it - meaning it basically does nothing for map cards like Andromeda where you had a choice to use it anyway. Its real intended purpose, and this will be its new wording, is to block any extra damage your opponent would receive from map cards when attacking your progamers. (As of now this would only apply to Tiamat/Tears of the Moon, but there will be more map cards like those in the future, increasing Tempest's potential) *edit* and I have to say "Jaedong the Wizard of Oz" is the best deck title name ever. | ||
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SirKibbleX
United States479 Posts
On June 15 2009 06:03 Trozz wrote: Yo man, Atrioc, Check out this card redesign. Text was hard to read. ![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v191/protrozz/12_Calm.jpg) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v191/protrozz/12_Calmdefault.jpg) Just thought I'd bring more attention to this redesigned template, possibly for use in the future versions or something! Every time trozz posts I think I pee just a bit. Kibble loves this stuff. If you need any help balancing, Atrioc, I have a lot of experience with TCGs including Magic (Onslaught on), Star Wars, Pokemon TCG (pre-Neo Genesis), Magi Nation, and Pokemon (post Diamond and Pearl: Secret Wonders) and I'd be willing to consult/test things/brainstorm. | ||
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Sleight
2471 Posts
My TCG background started right after pokemon got competitive and I made 700 over the first few months, and switched to MTG where i made 20 grand over around 3 years on my Limited playskill and some breakthroughs in Extended and Standard. I have since moved on to poker. Anyways... The fact is this. There is no good in me giving away how to break the format when it should be nixed immediately. The conversation needs to be between people with real backgrounds in TCG and Atrioc, because ultimately it is his baby and his say is important, on principle. I will give props to the Iris deck, its far and away the least dismal build idea posted thus far. | ||
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PanoRaMa
United States5069 Posts
i prob have more experience than you in ptcg AND poker keeping in mind I played the TCG when I was 10-12 years old. quit it with the retarded condescending attitude, god forbid you actually try to contribute to a constructive conversation w/o acting high and mighty. | ||
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Kyuukyuu
Canada6263 Posts
On June 16 2009 07:45 Sleight wrote: <self fellatio> cool story bro | ||
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Phelix
1931 Posts
A few concerns about some of the cards as they are too broken, and gives the controller too big of a hand advantage to abuse when played. Also, I think we need a good variety of maps, and a map searching card. We might have to wait until future sets and a ban list are created in order to balance this game, and hopefully this game could be a success. | ||
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