EPT[Guide] The Starcraft Progamer Trading Card Game - Page 14
| Forum Index > General Games |
|
MutaDoom
Canada1163 Posts
| ||
|
Gustav_Wind
United States646 Posts
| ||
|
SiegeTanksandBlueGoo
China685 Posts
P.a. I fucking love you. | ||
Atrioc
United States1865 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [sneakpeak] + ![[image loading]](http://i43.tinypic.com/qxtb93.png) I should have up for download tomorrow! Hopefully this will make it easier for those guys who are working on making a playable online version. | ||
|
Cube
Canada777 Posts
| ||
|
SiegeTanksandBlueGoo
China685 Posts
| ||
|
Lhefriel_Medies
United States28 Posts
On June 17 2009 07:49 Sleight wrote: Baby is there because you need to have a basic and you don't want to have to play Oov into the booth, though he should be GoGo. He NEEDS 5 stamina because plenty of guys deal 2 each time or deal 2 and they could be your weak match. In case of a poor draw, you want to make sure Ganzi isn't exposed before you have at least another card. You'd rather play Gogo in the box turn 1, then play Oov for oov ad nauseum for Ganzi and put an Energy on Ganzi. Then you can immeditately GG Gogo/MVP and bring out Ganzi. Also, there are no other cards more useful than a basic with zero/cheap GG cost. I jsut missed Gogo. My bad. The 2nd list will be forth coming once Atrioc updates the cards. It's pointless because the above list is just the flat out best deck period. This format however is already obsolete. There are a few flaws with your argument. The first is pretty clear, in that the second basic does not need 5 stamina. In respect to statistics, the cards are all self-contained, which means that a stamina of 4 is more than acceptable so long as the card has no weaknesses. Of the cards that I mentioned, beyond GoGo, both Saint and Hoejja were Terrans, and fit all of your requirements. (At least. I'm not going to go over my choices so thoroughly when there were already at least two other options) Hoejja has 5 stamina anyways, so the point is moot, and Saint has only four stamina, but no weak matchup so that's an unnecessary consideration. So you had many options, not just one more, so if it was an unintentional build mistake then it was a fairly sloppy one. The second is that even if there were no other options, and a player such as thezerg and Lomo would be greatly preferable to Baby regardless. You would be taking a risk in certain matchups, certainly, but that's far less significant than the fact that a player like Baby would potentially ruin explosive draws. Being forced to use the energy for the turn, that should have gone to Ganzi, to retreat Baby would be devastating to the combo time, and introduce a much greater element of luck as OSL Selections might have to be wasted simply to dig for energies. It would also allow to deck to run even fewer energies, giving the possibility for a few more blank trainers to slow the opponent down, such as Netizens or Progamer Equipment, or to fit in the MSL Selections necessary for the mirror. Proper metagaming would probably eliminate all most all of the risks involved, as there are an extremely limited number of basic players that can deal three damage, and thezerg has no weak matchups, and very few Zerg progamers that deal two damage immediately. If it was absolutely terrible it would still be necessary, as it's necessary regardless to prepare with the greatest care for the mirror, if you really believe that you have the best deck and unless you believe that no one else could have possibly come up for the same build as you. For example, the copies of Aura of Silence in the sideboard of the recent Cascade Swans decks. If you had come in without optimizing your build against what you consider the best deck, or at least considering the eventuality seriously, it would be highly possible that you would simply lose if I had included thezerg and you had not. So even pretending that you had no other option but to accept thezerg or Lomo, it just seems like a clear mistake not to use them. The third point that you used in defense of Baby was the protection of Ganzi; it really doesn't matter if Ganzi is exposed. At 6 stamina, he will last at least a single hit from all basic progamers, and at least two from all that don't happen to be Protoss. On the play, you'll get two activations from him, which is more than enough, and on the draw you will have at least one and to be honest it should be that hard to go off even with only a single activation. And it seems unlikely that you'll come against a Protoss anyways since almost all of the basic Protoss are terrible. In most cases, at worst, an Oov in the booth can be used to stall the combo and protect Ganzi already. So if Ganzi is your only basic, then you aren't in terrible shape anyways, since you can easily draw into a second, and if he isn't, even if Oov is the other, you're in great shape. It isn't like you expect to get more than a few activations off of Ganzi to begin with, and especially later on, it's surprising if you need more than one. Fourth, I'm not even sure how that ideal draw you presented is relevant as I don't see how it effects my points at all, let alone should be taken into consideration. If anything, it helps my argument since putting Baby in the booth and chaining Oovs into Ganzi is substantially worse than putting in thezerg and chaining Oovs, as you would be forced to delay the initial Ganzi activation, taking a huge risk in a mirror while only eliminating a minor one against two progamers, with which both reside on a coin flip and require the use of terrible cards by your opponent to begin with. And you might as well update the list for the mirror. There's no point in not discussing it, since the most likely improvement would simply be hard counters for other decks since any other fix would neuter the strategy entirely. Also, could I have a few test goldfishes? I assume that you proxied the deck for testing, and while I can't imagine any sort of satisfaction with Baby, I'm also highly curious as to how the deck plays out, since while it seems fast it does seem like luck plays an overwhelming role, since the critical cards are in fairly low quantities (4x Oov, 4x Ganzi, 4x OSL Selection, which is reasonable but without mulliganing seems like it could lead to huge misses), and the necessity of luck on the first OSL Selection (not getting too many blanks). I can't at the moment, so I'm wondering how well and how consistently the deck plays since it seems like getting lucky with both the starting hand and the first OSL selection still seems to be up the air. Just theorycrafting I'm not even sure if the format needs to be fixed for a deck like this; it seems like just proper metagaming and MSL Selections to bust setups should be good enough to play against this deck given how inconsistent it seems mentally. Sorry for the doubt here, but I just need to see it in action for a deck like this. I would have to compare the feeling that it gives me to the Knoll-Swath decks (Gassy Knoll all the way to TSPS) that were in Standard a year or so ago (I haven't played recently so I can't comfortably give a more current example), and it just seems like there's a huge possibility to just bust the deck with proper play and slight metagaming. | ||
|
anotak
United States1537 Posts
and somebody called it tendrils storm!!! i fukken love combo decks, though i prefer swath storm... I MUST PLAY THE COMBO DECK 10 colors of land though woahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh what is this give this man a beta key! | ||
|
Sleight
2471 Posts
So that's all I have to say about that. Stop wasting your time. Luck plays 0 part in it. Goldfish the deck. You see an average of 15 cards on turn 1 and 30 by turn 2. How is there luck? If you draw no card draw, you need 1 Oov or Ganzi + 1 Energy or Fan in the first 8 cards to still successfully see half your deck by turn 2. If you have Sc, you need the above in the top 10. If you have TLPD, you will see 30 cards or so by turn 2. if you have OSL, you will see a minimum of 15 and get to rid yourself of wasted cards and get a mathematically better draw unless you pitch 4 different pieces of Bonjwa. Actually try it. If you don't have a ganzi in play, a tlpd in hand, AND 3 of the Bonjwa pieces, you OSL it and just go nuts. Blanks are irrelevant because you see INFINITE cards. Play the deck. You can't theorycraft math. The simple fact is that you see 1/4th of your deck turn 1. Cards like Fan, TLPD, Oov, and Ganzi all exponentially improve your draws each turn. Try the it out. Consider this. With a 60 card deck you have 1/15 shot of getting any single 4 of. So lets start there. Read the following if you'd like to see why Medies is being ridiculous in suggesting there is anything but incredible statistical certainty in playing this deck. On a side note, the odds of seeing at LEAST 1 of a 4of in the top 10 of a 60 card deck is over 40%. + Show Spoiler + 60 cards: SCII removes itself and shows you 2 move always, so you can subtract the 4 SC and 4 additional nameless cards from the -functional- portion of the deck, as even if they are energies, you have increased the density of Bonjwa left in the deck. 52 cards: Fan removes itself and puts a plains in your hand, decreasing the deck an additional 4 cards 48 cards: Oov will always remove an additional 4 cards from your deck at minimum, so that means 1 Oov = 5 cards fewer to draw, leading to 43 cards: TLPD replaces itself from the deck without any price, meaning anytime you draw it, you effectively drew any card you want because you will always have 2 additional cards leading to 39 cards: Ganzi functions the exact same as TLPD, only requiring you have 1 of 12 cards (1 of any energy/fan) and he is able to put the special in your hand, replacing itself and removing 1 card from your deck every turn he is active, meaning the first 1 should remove 2, but regardless, only the first Ganzi 'really' counts even though multiples mean you will get one easy. 38 cards So what is left in that 38? Well, there are the Bonjwa cards, 20 of them. So excluding those, the functional decksize is 18. Meaning if, by some miracle, you never see a single Bonjwa and just burn through purely card drawing, you have better than a 50% shot of getting a piece each draw step worst case scenario. Yes that's accurate. if you actually look at the cards in the deck, there are only 16 cards in the deck that aren't win conditions or don't push you through the deck faster, but the redundant Ganzi's don't count quite as much. Also OSL is left out of the equation because the math involved in a random 7 card hand from a deck of 52-48 is more than I care to do. Needless to say, that actually makes the deck's functional size even smaller. 5 Test goldfishes with Baby as some 0 cost GGer as per request. + Show Spoiler + Hand 1: MVP 2 Energy 1st MSL 2nd MSL SCII TLPD Play MVP as my game, draw for my turn getting MSL 3. SCII drawing Oov MVP, Oov->Oov->Oov->Oov->Ganzi, play Ganzi, retreat MVP, Energy on Ganzi This is a guaranteed turn 3 win. Playing it safe, activate Ganzi and get SCII. Turn 2, draw 3rd MSL, doesn't matter, SCII->Energy,3rd MSL (if i had hit TLPD or OSL 1 or Savior I would have won turn 2). Ganzi for TLPD, Turn 3, draw a blank, 2 TLPD's pitching the extra Bonjwa cards you drew off SCII, the MVP in hand, and the blank I drew for the turn. GG. Seeing as a turn 2 win is very possible depending on draws, I got back the cards, shuffled the deck and went ahead for that. TLPD->OSL Selection, OSL into Gogo, OSL Selection, Ganzi, SCII, 3rd and 1st MSLs, and Fan Cheerfuls. Fan Cheerful for an energy. SCII into Savior, Energy. OSL Selection, drawing Fan, TLPD, OSL Sel, 1st Osl, Energy, MVP, baby Fan for Energy, TLPD for Fan for an Energy, OSL drawing 1st Msl, Savior, SCII, TLPD, 2nd MSL, 3rd MSL, Gogo. TLPD pitching scii and gogo for the 1st Osl and a turn 2 kill. One more for you. 1st, 2nd, 4th MSL TLPD MVP Energy Oov Obviously a turn 3 kill at the latest. Mvp as your guy, drawing TLPD, Oov chain into Ganzi, retreat MVP for Ganzi, activate getting SCII. Draw Energy, SCII into SCII, Fan. Fan for Energy, SCII drawing Gogo, Ganzi. TLPD pitching gogo ganzi for Savior, TLPD for 1st OSL pitching 2 Energies. Turn 2 kill because I hit a second SCII in the top 4 cards. If I hadn't hit any SCII, or Savior/1st Osl, I would have just activated ganzi getting a second SCII and then turn 3 double TLPD. Another? Hand: Mvp 2 3rd Msl's, 1st Osl Fan Cheerfuls Ganzi Energy Play Mvp. Draw Savior. Fan for energy, Ganzi, swap, Energy, activate getting OSL Seleciton. Turn 2->Draw Savior. Osl Selection into 2 Gogo, Mvp, 1st Msl, 2nd MSL, MVP, and Oov. Oov chain and end with Gogo. Ganzi for OSL Selection. The worst draw ever and I've seen 23 cards before turn 3. Turn 3 ->Draw TLPD for my turn. TLPD into Fan into Energy, OSL Sel into Energy, 1st & 2nd MSL, Gogo, Savior, OSL, and Fan. Fan into Energy, OSL Sel into 1st Osl, 2nd MSL, Ganzi, TLPD, 1st MSL, MVP, SCII. SCII into OSL Sel and TLPD. TLPD pitching Ganzi, MVP for SCII. SCII drawing 3rd MSL, 1st MSL. TLPD discard the extra 1st OSL and OSL Selection getting Savior. How lucky I get one of the 2 pieces I was missing, right? I only had 17 cards left in my deck before TLPD. So i instead had myself draw 2 blanks in the form of MVP and Ganzi. Oh shucks, but in my deck is 1 more each of 1st OSL, 1st MSL, Savior, 2nd MSL, and 3 3rd OSLs. And there are only 14 cards left. So i just tlpd getting a Fan for an Energy (12 cards left) and OSL Sel, leaving 5 cards left in my library. Drawing 2 Energy, Savior, 3rd, 2nd and 1st MSLs, and SCII. The cards left in my deck are 2 more 3rd MSLs, the 1st Osl I need, a TLPD, and an SCII. So if I draw ANY combination of those cards except 2 3rd MSLs, I win the game instantly. And I don't, 3rd MSL, and TLPD. TLPD pitching Energies getting the 1st Osl and a turn 3 kill with an SCII and a 3rd MSL only left in the deck. Yeah. Its luck. And yes... I did play those correctly. TLPD for Fan for Energy is the correct play prior to OSL Selection. | ||
|
Enteris
United States51 Posts
New versions of older players to represent when they were at their peak. Like an S class July when he was Muta micro king! Something like that. Also, I never played the Pokemon TGC but this sounds like some fun. Great work! | ||
|
Gustav_Wind
United States646 Posts
So is 4x auto SCII hype... even if you are not trying to win in a degenerate way, they both help your deck do the same thing every single time | ||
|
Atrioc
United States1865 Posts
Running 4x Fan Cheerfuls is fine if you want - it has the drawback of being completely vulnerable to disruption decks that are heavy on Korean Netizens and Path of the Night, combined with the Team cards you lose from paying GG costs you could very easily run out of team cards necessary to power your best guys. Plus anyone going for a single-team deck has no use for a Fan Cheerful. | ||
|
Gustav_Wind
United States646 Posts
On June 18 2009 03:34 Atrioc wrote: SC2 hype and OSL Group Selection are getting a slight modification for when the eStro expansion comes out that will make them more of a tactical decision when used rather than just an easy choice with no cost. Running 4x Fan Cheerfuls is fine if you want - it has the drawback of being completely vulnerable to disruption decks that are heavy on Korean Netizens and Path of the Night, combined with the Team cards you lose from paying GG costs you could very easily run out of team cards necessary to power your best guys. Plus anyone going for a single-team deck has no use for a Fan Cheerful. Sleight's list is single-team and it has 4x Fan Cheerfuls. It thins your deck. I know it isn't strictly better than the Team Cards it replaces, but I'm just pointing out that it often is an improvement, especially for lists running a lot of Team Cards. | ||
|
Gnaix
United States438 Posts
| ||
|
Lhefriel_Medies
United States28 Posts
I goldfished five times as well. + Show Spoiler + One: OSL OSL Hype Hoejja Fan Cheerfuls Hoejja Woongjin Play 1 Hoejja, keeping the other in my hand. Fan Cheerfuls for a Woongjin. SC2 Hype, drawing into Hoejja and a Swamp. OSL Selection into: Island, Mountain, Forest, Fan Cheerfuls, OSL Selection, SC2 Hype, Woongjin SC2 Hype into Woongjin and Fan Cheerfuls. Deciding not to thin the deck down to 2 effective energies in case I need one for Ganzi, or even 4 I decide to not use the Fan Cheerfuls. I have nothing and no way of making Savior from the three pieces I have at the moment, and have an OSL so the decision is easy. OSL Selection into: OSL Selection, Hoejja, MVP, TLPD, Island, Mountains, Plains, Swamp I decide to go fishing anothing time, since I'm still one card off of a win and have an OSL Selection anyways. OSL Selection into: 3x Woongjin, Forest, Plains, Fan Cheefuls, MVP Still nothing. I don't even have a Ganzi to try to clock out of it. I have seen 35 cards on turn one, but due to the nature of OSL Selection I still have not managed a win. Two: TLPD Ganzi Fan Cheerfuls Hoejja MVP MVP Fan Cheerfuls Ganzi goes in the booth, I play none of the blank 0 GGers since I'm assuming that I'm on the play and might want a bench placement for a second Ganzi just in case. TLPD discarding two of the blank 0 GGers for a third Fan Cheerfuls. I play all three Fan Cheerfuls, attach a Woongjin to Ganzi. I have nothing, so I Ganzi for OSL Selection and play it. OSL Selection into: Island, Mountain, Swamp, Forest, TLPD, OSL Selection, Hoejja Obvious win here. But this is exactly what I was talking about; I OSL Selectioned, got lucky and ended up with four pieces, no repeats, and a TLPD. There was nothing here to suggest that I got anything but lucky, but that's the benefit of playing a combo deck. Three: Woongjin Woongjin Woongjin Ganzi MVP Swamp Mountain Ganzi in the booth, attach a Woongjin, an then there's no choice but to Ganzi for an OSL Selection and play it. OSL Selection into: Swamp, Mountain, Island, Plains, Ganzi, Oov, Hoejja Another lucky OSL. Ganzi will win the next turn provided that Idra or some such does not such Trainers down. Both times I somehow managed to get 4 pieces with no duplicates, and I have no idea if I can call that anything but luck. (Taking a point from FakeSteve's book and saying that a post responding to this should include "Muffin Top" so I know that you've read what I've written before responding.) Four: Forest Forest Swamp Woongjin MVP Hoejja Fan Cheerfuls I think that it's safe to say that this is a losing hand? MVP and Hoejja go into the booth and on the bench arbitrarily, and save for random lucky topdecking any deck should be able to get Idra online or some other way of shutting this deck down by the time it starts to be anything similar to a threat. Incidentally, Fan Cheerfuls, and then the next few topdecks would be: SC2 Hype Island Fan Cheerfuls Oov Island Five: Woongjin Swamp OSL OSL MVP MVP Hoejja MVP in the booth, nothing to do but OSL. OSL Selection into: Mountain, Island, Island, Swamp, Woongjin, OSL Selection, Oov Oov - Oov - Oov - Oov - Ganzi, Woongjin on Ganzi, Ganzi into the booth, and OSL Selection one more time. TLPD TLPD Island Mountain Woongjin Fan Cheerfuls Ganzi This is probably too good to throw away since a win is just possible here next turn with Ganzi's powers (SC2 Hype, play both TLPDs, and there are just enough cards for another TLPD courtesy of Ganzi next turn), but again, a certain element of luck involved here since I would have been screwed had I not gotten Oov and the second OSL, and in the second OSL managed to get two TLPDs and 2 distinct pieces. Again, not tremendously lucky but with so many blanks even a draw like this which was fairly marginal required some luck to pull off. In summary, I went off 3 out of five times, two of which were just plain luck, not even having required any hand manipulation after a good OSL before winning. Even considering getting flat out lucky twice out of five times as acceptable deviation, which I would highly doubt, that's still only decent, not amazing. And that's not considering at all the possibility of disruption like Idra or any possibly counters introduced or even just knocking Ganzi out before the second activation could hit. I also never had to face a situation where I was stranded with an Oov in the booth (my only basic), or having a hand full of blank Bonjwa pieces, not getting cut off by being forced to Ganzi for necessary OSLs, all of which seem like distinct possibilities. As it stands right now, it seems like there's no way this deck could have a go off rate of greater than 70% goldfishing, if even that, with an optimal build with no cards dedicated to hate (MSL Selection). Not certain if it really is the best deck in the format without proper testing rather than goldfishing, and there probably needs to be some hate out there given the dearth of utility abilities to begin with, but from five preliminary tests this is nothing anywhere close to broken. For a traditional comparison, TES and SI both seem appropriate. Both have the capability and consistency to kill turn two at the latest with very few fizzles and have almost no blanks, and include hate in their basic builds. Compared to this, which consists primarily of blanks, contains no hate, and still seems inconsistent, they seem almost strictly more powerful in a fundamentally more explosive ruleset (no mana costs, Ganzi, unlimited Trainers per turn). And neither of those decks is considered overwhelming in their format. Given the ability of other decks to find hate as well, this doesn't seem anywhere near as broken as you're making it out to be. It should be just as easy for another deck to dig for an Idra on turn one, and with a slightly more powerful attack could easily just shut you down and kill you slowly while you hold a hand entirely full of blanks hoping to topdeck into a completed Bonjwa. And with other, better hate cards introduced the concept even seems like it could be laughable. A good deck? Considering the inherently slower nature of this game, perhaps. Overwhelming? I highly doubt it. I disagree with numerous other points that you've made but I'm short on time at the moment as I'm on vacation so I'll address them later. This has already taken me around 20 minutes to write, and I am short on time, but my silence is not consent. | ||
|
Gustav_Wind
United States646 Posts
You can almost always find Ganzi early. There are 12 cards that either are Ganzi or tutor for him and 8 extremely efficient card drawers to find one of those 12. The times where you failed to find him on turn 1 are the exception, not the other way around. In a contest between this deck and a deck with a "fair" strategy it's a very, very heavily weighted coin flip in the favor of the Bonjwa deck. Even if they manage to knock out your first Ganzi and you haven't won already you should be in a position where you can draw out of it before they can knock out the rest of the Oovs on your bench. I can't believe you are using comparisons to magic decks to make your point. The reason storm decks aren't broken in their format is because cards like Force of Will and Duress/Thoughtseize exist. You know, meaningful ways to interact on turns 1-2. The best your opponent can do to you here is play MSL selection and give you a fresh 7 to work with. | ||
|
I8PP
Canada186 Posts
| ||
|
Sleight
2471 Posts
Furthermore, you cannot activate Ganzi and use the card in the same turn. He has to 'attack' to do it, from my understanding, and you have to end your turn afterwards. This isn't Magic, you don't get 2 main phases, or at least, that's how the rules propose it. Your play was incredibly inaccurate. Apparently you are not playing my list. I play with 8 Energies and in game 3 you see 9 in your first 16 cards. So yeah. You can't play a different list and treat it as the same. Furthermore, the way the game is set up, you have to play your guy BEFORE you know if you are playing first. So yeah, none of this "Well I ganzi blind cause I'm playing first". If you want, we can connect over MWS or something and I'll just beat you every game for awhile. I'll give you a card for card list and all you have to tell me is the number of MSL in your deck. | ||
|
fijosh
Czech Republic68 Posts
Thanks for the awesome work btw! | ||
|
Cube
Canada777 Posts
edit: wait i missed the bit about me losing sorry | ||
| ||
