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On April 05 2009 04:54 zizou21 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 02:37 ASAzerg wrote:
I talked to some Koreans and they said, back in high school, almost all their schoolmates play SC. I think this insane popularity among teenagers is what makes e-sport what it is in Korea today. Just my 2 cents. So wait, because SC is popular it is popular?? brilliant
???? 'popular is popular'? Wow, you just post some really stupid thing, kid. Let me go the extra detail so you can comprehend it.
When SC first came out, it became so popular in Korea that majority of teenagers were playing it. This insane popularity is what gave birth to Starleagues and turning e-sport in Korea into what it is today, which is a huge entertainment industry that generate nation-wide audience and million dollars revenues. Now hopefully you won't reply with another nonsense.
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There's a lot that needs to be done differently in order for eSports to be successful. The eSports community in general is just full of people trying to make some fast cash, there also seems to be a complete lack of professionalism as well. (Foreign Scene)
There's also a big problem developer wise. Developers/leagues would need to work together in order for eSports to truly be successful. Games need to be changed/upgraded to keep interest alive, but they still need to be fundamentally the same game to keep things simple. Starcraft 2/Call of Duty 800 are not the answers, CS:Source was a good try, but they really shouldn't have changed how the game itself actually played out.
The situation right now with eSports is the same as if the NFL had no control over the game/rules of football and were forced to change the game completely every few years. It just wouldn't work :/.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On April 05 2009 06:18 zizou21 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 06:03 Bill307 wrote:On April 05 2009 04:54 zizou21 wrote:On April 05 2009 02:37 ASAzerg wrote:
I talked to some Koreans and they said, back in high school, almost all their schoolmates play SC. I think this insane popularity among teenagers is what makes e-sport what it is in Korea today. Just my 2 cents. So wait, because SC is popular it is popular?? brilliant What? He's just reaffirming that SC is a successful e-sport in Korea because it is immensely popular. And I found his post informative. Unlike your post which is completely pointless. ...
On April 05 2009 06:03 Bill307 wrote:
What? He's just reaffirming that SC is a successful e-sport in Korea because it is immensely popular. And I found his post informative.
Unlike your post which is completely pointless.
...
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I think esports in North America specifically has to be concentrated on online competition more. Let's face it, unlike Korea, most major cities in North America have small pockets of gamers, 20-30 who will come out for fun events. You want to reach out to those communities outside with the 1.5-3 million populations as well. Most being large suburbs, none of those sky scraper cities.
You will also be going up against kids who would rather have fun at the park, play some sports and b-ball, soccer instead of sittin around for a nice game of StarCraft. Maybe cyber cafes here have to reach out, and not just have PCs, but have Xbox and Ps3 competitions as well. But yah, it's gotta all be online, with better organization there and easier ways to register and play.
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I think the issue zizou raised is more "if popularity is so important, you need to break down the factors which go into it to provide a suitable suggestion for SC2".
He's shown that's there's an obvious level of circularity in your analysis. SC WAS popular during the time around its release, but is that the reason its an e-sport? It obviously can't be the sole factor based on the fate of other popular games which failed to make it, but it clearly counts for something.
Edit: Why was BW on EVERYONE's plate at the same time? Why was it a social event? Why was it a good fit with the tv networks? Why did it draw crowds? etc.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On April 05 2009 08:05 L wrote:
I think the issue zizou raised is more "if popularity is so important, you need to break down the factors which go into it to provide a suitable suggestion for SC2".
He could have done that without calling ASAzerg stupid, though. =P
Anyway, didn't FakeSteve write an essay on the rise of SC as an e-sport in Korea, or something? I'm pretty sure he did. I don't know where it is, though. (One can probably Google TLnet for it, I guess...)
On April 05 2009 08:03 Phantom wrote:
I think esports in North America specifically has to be concentrated on online competition more. Let's face it, unlike Korea, most major cities in North America have small pockets of gamers, 20-30 who will come out for fun events. You want to reach out to those communities outside with the 1.5-3 million populations as well. Most being large suburbs, none of those sky scraper cities.
You will also be going up against kids who would rather have fun at the park, play some sports and b-ball, soccer instead of sittin around for a nice game of StarCraft. Maybe cyber cafes here have to reach out, and not just have PCs, but have Xbox and Ps3 competitions as well. But yah, it's gotta all be online, with better organization there and easier ways to register and play.
I disagree: if you move everything online, then you lose all the social benefits of offline gaming. Wouldn't it be easier to compete with other sports if gaming provides the same opportunities to socialize?
Actually, besides no lag and no hacking, the only other benefit of having tournaments played offline is the ability for the players to socialize with each other in-person. Therefore, e-sports organizations should promote this advantage.
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I think it's simple. It needs to get on a major tv station.
I'm thinking ESPN Cyber.
99.9% of people don't really give a shit because they can't identify with pro gamers. If there was a tv show about it that introduced the tournaments, told background stories of select favorite players, drew you in, etc - then people would become much more interested.
Kinda like poker.
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On April 04 2009 11:27 Bill307 wrote:
So I was sitting on the can playing with myself
when i read that it scared me.
Also, good thoughts I think WCG should drop GH and VF and pick up SF2 (unless they already have it, in which case i'm blatantly homosexual)
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On April 04 2009 16:43 benjammin wrote:
No TV station (in America, at least) operates like MBC/OGN do with regard to commercials, and I'm sure there's probably some bullshit FCC regulations about maximum time without a commercial. You could never air a game in full, especially when its length is indeterminable.
Every live sporting event has a way to fit commercials in. For tennis matches, ESPN sometimes airs an entire set (30-60min) without commercials. I'm sure they could make SC work.
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On April 05 2009 09:32 travis wrote:
I think it's simple. It needs to get on a major tv station.
I'm thinking ESPN Cyber.
99.9% of people don't really give a shit because they can't identify with pro gamers. If there was a tv show about it that introduced the tournaments, told background stories of select favorite players, drew you in, etc - then people would become much more interested.
Kinda like poker.
If you look at MLG, they stream their coverage online because it's the only way they can get a high amount of viewers seeing as something like 98% of their fans are 18-32 year old males. The only way to get their fans to tune in is if they put it online, a tv show wouldn't be able to pull in the ratings as their target audience don't watch that much tv. That's why sites like hulu.com exist, look at the shows that you can stream there and you'll realise that it's easier to get young males to tune in online. In America at least, and I guess it would be the same for most of the rest of the world.
The show that MLG broadcast on their website is actually very much like you described, with pre and post game interviews, knowledgeable commentators that can fill the viewers in with player transactions and rivalries etc.. It's all quite well done, I suppose they have some things right. Could someone explain why MLG might fall to the same problems as the other gaming leagues?
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On April 05 2009 09:46 SonuvBob wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2009 16:43 benjammin wrote:
No TV station (in America, at least) operates like MBC/OGN do with regard to commercials, and I'm sure there's probably some bullshit FCC regulations about maximum time without a commercial. You could never air a game in full, especially when its length is indeterminable. Every live sporting event has a way to fit commercials in. For tennis matches, ESPN sometimes airs an entire set (30-60min) without commercials. I'm sure they could make SC work.
I'm fairly certain commercials aren't regulated anyway, other than by the networks. Hence why you see a lot of "commercial free" or "limited commercial" programs on big networks. Think about it this way... if you buy an hour long time slot, there will be probably 3 commercial breaks. If you want your program to run commercial free, you simply buy the 3 commercial time slots too. This isn't feasible in most cases because it would cost too much to buy the time slots, but if you're broadcasting an original series (for example, if ESPN were to make a televised show), you obviously don't have to pay for your own time.
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Eh that kind of thinking is why it won't work. Because they want instant ratings rather than building an audience. You can't just HAVE pedigree built into something. Starcraft in Korea now has like 9+ years behind it. Look at the early days and its clear it was cheaply done, cheesy, etc. But it got better because they refined everything and focused on what the casual audience wants(Drama, a story) but without forsaking the legitimacy of the events so that the players and hardcore audience find it appealing as well.
Personally I doubt progaming could work on TV over here for another 5-10 years until TV ratings continue to slide(They already are) to the point where commercials are different; not set up to be 9+ minutes of every 30 minutes of programming and some networks decide to put a genuine focus on quality. Right now we are in the cash-in phase with all the reality programming and huge amount of shit commercials, much like the music/radio industry.. Shit will change eventually.
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On April 05 2009 10:48 SevGaming wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 09:46 SonuvBob wrote:On April 04 2009 16:43 benjammin wrote:
No TV station (in America, at least) operates like MBC/OGN do with regard to commercials, and I'm sure there's probably some bullshit FCC regulations about maximum time without a commercial. You could never air a game in full, especially when its length is indeterminable. Every live sporting event has a way to fit commercials in. For tennis matches, ESPN sometimes airs an entire set (30-60min) without commercials. I'm sure they could make SC work. I'm fairly certain commercials aren't regulated anyway, other than by the networks. Hence why you see a lot of "commercial free" or "limited commercial" programs on big networks. Think about it this way... if you buy an hour long time slot, there will be probably 3 commercial breaks. If you want your program to run commercial free, you simply buy the 3 commercial time slots too. This isn't feasible in most cases because it would cost too much to buy the time slots, but if you're broadcasting an original series (for example, if ESPN were to make a televised show), you obviously don't have to pay for your own time.
Yeah, I'm assuming/hoping the FCC thing was a joke. :p
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On April 05 2009 10:48 SevGaming wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 09:46 SonuvBob wrote:On April 04 2009 16:43 benjammin wrote:
No TV station (in America, at least) operates like MBC/OGN do with regard to commercials, and I'm sure there's probably some bullshit FCC regulations about maximum time without a commercial. You could never air a game in full, especially when its length is indeterminable. Every live sporting event has a way to fit commercials in. For tennis matches, ESPN sometimes airs an entire set (30-60min) without commercials. I'm sure they could make SC work. I'm fairly certain commercials aren't regulated anyway, other than by the networks. Hence why you see a lot of "commercial free" or "limited commercial" programs on big networks.
This is true but for the big networks you won't see them giving up commercial time when they have a certain amount of "built in" viewership. ie, people just flipping through the channels trying to find something to watch. It also pisses off the sponsors/people who buy ad time.
I mean they have all this shit down to such a science that its really hard to get compelling programming because they know all the tricks to squeeze revenue out of cheaply made, terrible programming anyway.
I'd say maybe ESPN2 or some startup channel could do it certainly. Would be tough though. It would be more likely that a network would record games and edit them, much like watching poker or something. You watch 8 hours of poker in 30 minutes. Unfortunately for something like SC this pretty much sucks.
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On April 05 2009 08:33 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 08:05 L wrote:
I think the issue zizou raised is more "if popularity is so important, you need to break down the factors which go into it to provide a suitable suggestion for SC2". He could have done that without calling ASAzerg stupid, though. =P Anyway, didn't FakeSteve write an essay on the rise of SC as an e-sport in Korea, or something? I'm pretty sure he did. I don't know where it is, though. (One can probably Google TLnet for it, I guess...) Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 08:03 Phantom wrote:
I think esports in North America specifically has to be concentrated on online competition more. Let's face it, unlike Korea, most major cities in North America have small pockets of gamers, 20-30 who will come out for fun events. You want to reach out to those communities outside with the 1.5-3 million populations as well. Most being large suburbs, none of those sky scraper cities.
You will also be going up against kids who would rather have fun at the park, play some sports and b-ball, soccer instead of sittin around for a nice game of StarCraft. Maybe cyber cafes here have to reach out, and not just have PCs, but have Xbox and Ps3 competitions as well. But yah, it's gotta all be online, with better organization there and easier ways to register and play. I disagree: if you move everything online, then you lose all the social benefits of offline gaming. Wouldn't it be easier to compete with other sports if gaming provides the same opportunities to socialize? Actually, besides no lag and no hacking, the only other benefit of having tournaments played offline is the ability for the players to socialize with each other in-person. Therefore, e-sports organizations should promote this advantage.
Okay, then allow for in game voice chat. It's just harder for most North American cities because the way they are built. I'd attribute to the large success of the college starcraft league to the fact that you have these early to mid 20s students gathered in one location, but were the split back into their home towns, it would be much harder to get the same success. each one of those colleges could prob hold a decent lan tournament, but back to their cities, not as easy. Compare person per km from korea to the states, it's huge. even if most of the population in the states live in large cities, it doesn't compare.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On April 05 2009 13:17 Phantom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 08:33 Bill307 wrote:
I disagree: if you move everything online, then you lose all the social benefits of offline gaming. Wouldn't it be easier to compete with other sports if gaming provides the same opportunities to socialize?
Actually, besides no lag and no hacking, the only other benefit of having tournaments played offline is the ability for the players to socialize with each other in-person. Therefore, e-sports organizations should promote this advantage. Okay, then allow for in game voice chat.
...............................................................
I don't mean to offend, but... I pointed out the social benefits of playing offline that you lose online, and your solution is to use voice chat? My mind is blown..... I don't even know what to say.....
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SC in korea works because it was built from the ground up by small-timers organizing tournaments in PC cafes. The entire scene was spawned and is sustained by its fanatical fanbase, which boils down to the game itself every single time. Trying to emulate that success without the appropriate foundation is a horrible idea, and is why CPL folded, why CGS folded, and why MLG will inevitably suffer the same fate.
SC2 is the only interesting prospect, but the game must be good enough to create that fanatical fanbase. It has an advantage in that it's StarCraft's sequel and a lot of the groundwork necessary is taken care of. All these other leagues are exactly like when SpikeTV tried to invent a new basketball; all the marketing in the world couldn't salvage that trainwreck. The entire idea of marketing "e-sports" as a whole is such a misguided approach, it's like all these people just don't care where their money goes.
There seems to be this idea that since StarCraft or whatever players are getting paid $x somewhere in the world, other people playing video games for a living are entitled to a similar amount. Too bad that's not how this stuff works. So many of the efforts being put forth seem to be very forced, blatant attempts to cash in on a fad. Makes me shake my fucking head.
That is too fucking true, ESWC, WCG etc. all seem to treat gaming as some sort of gimmick. Their tournaments are boring and dysfunctional. These days I only watch Korean eSports.
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On April 05 2009 15:24 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2009 13:17 Phantom wrote:On April 05 2009 08:33 Bill307 wrote:
I disagree: if you move everything online, then you lose all the social benefits of offline gaming. Wouldn't it be easier to compete with other sports if gaming provides the same opportunities to socialize?
Actually, besides no lag and no hacking, the only other benefit of having tournaments played offline is the ability for the players to socialize with each other in-person. Therefore, e-sports organizations should promote this advantage. Okay, then allow for in game voice chat. ............................................................... I don't mean to offend, but... I pointed out the social benefits of playing offline that you lose online, and your solution is to use voice chat? My mind is blown..... I don't even know what to say.....
okay reading from your replies to me, you've only said that it offers the chance for people to socialize. That's it for 'social benefits'. what's so ridiculous about voice chat? vent channels support communities in a very positive way.
i'm guessing tho when you say offline events, you must draw a lot from your TL lan experiences at yonge and finch or something. i'm saying yes, okay you can get 15-20 people show up for that. but even then, 5-10 of those people drive out at least 20-30 minutes to meet you there. where in Korea, you could probably have 15-20 live 10-15 minute WALK from the area you want to chill at. geographical limitations make for live events very hard.
you remember the TFL operating in toronto several years ago? that is one of the most successful lan organizationers i've seen, and now it's dead. I don't know why, but I think further inquiry into that topic might help boost your discussion here. i'll try to find out why when i have more time.
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tbh the only games I find fun to watch are RTS and Fighting games, and RTS by a long shot...there really should be more emphasis placed on competetive RTS gaming in the global e-sports scene as they're by far the most enjoyable to watch.
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Until professional gaming becomes mainstream enought to attract sponsors that aren't related to software companies the games will be dictated by sponsors looking to promote their respective games.
WCG will do fine (but not spectacular) imo whilst it maintains the popular games like SC, CS and War3, but until Western attitude towards e-sports shift to a spot where mainstream sports today are (like basketball, tennis etc) it will just be another niche entertainment market like the WWE.
E-sports will be successful as the gaming generation slowly becomes the leaders of the future and attitudes towards gaming change.
Just imagine Inc in 30 years time as CEO of ESPN.
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EPT
