EPTWhat should WCG and E-Sports do differently? - Page 2
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Manbear
Canada306 Posts
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benjammin
United States2728 Posts
Games need to have a low entrance-level for people to be able to watch them. For all the intricacies of Starcraft, someone who has never watched the game can tell that player A makes a bunch of stuff and so does player B, and whoever still has stuff after they run into each other wins. You don't need strategical insight for the game to make sense. The same goes for Counter-Strike and the badly missed FPS dueling game (where is Q3?!!?). I'd argue that racing games fit into that too, and are fast-paced enough to be the only really viable sport simulator to ever be a decent e-sport. This might be a bit off-track, but I'll make a bold claim to the quote from FakeSteve: E-sports are never going to catch on in America. That grass roots element of the beginnings of Starcraft is impossible here, and probably only possibly in a city like Seoul. It'll never get on TV--how could it? No TV station (in America, at least) operates like MBC/OGN do with regard to commercials, and I'm sure there's probably some bullshit FCC regulations about maximum time without a commercial. You could never air a game in full, especially when its length is indeterminable. If history shows us anything, any time a major corporate sponsor gets involved e-sports they totally fuck it up. CGS pretty much ruined the American CS scene and made some of the best players just uncompetitive on an international level. I'm imagining MLG will manage a similar mess. Here's a brief New York Times article about the whole mess: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/02/sports/othersports/02video.html?scp=9&sq=gamer&st=cse Maybe I'm being overly cynical, but I never see it happening, there are too many factors weighing against it. Then again, who knows? Poker probably faced the same cynicism and look what happened. I just don't think there's any support. Game publishers are too content draining the wallets of all their customers to care about developing gaming as any sort of sport. Sad, but I think it's true. | ||
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Gliche
United States811 Posts
On April 04 2009 16:43 benjammin wrote: Game publishers are too content draining the wallets of all their customers to care about developing gaming as any sort of sport. Sad, but I think it's true. We can only hope that Blizzard doesn't go that way when SC2 hits shelves. I want to say more but no time, so i'll post later.. | ||
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Cesar2000
Sweden185 Posts
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On April 04 2009 16:43 benjammin wrote: However, to argue that racing is boring to watch and so are racing games is just preposterous to me. If you personally don't appreciate racing, that's fine, but it's a perfect thing to have in an event like this. Games need to have a low entrance-level for people to be able to watch them. For all the intricacies of Starcraft, someone who has never watched the game can tell that player A makes a bunch of stuff and so does player B, and whoever still has stuff after they run into each other wins. You don't need strategical insight for the game to make sense. The same goes for Counter-Strike and the badly missed FPS dueling game (where is Q3?!!?). I'd argue that racing games fit into that too, and are fast-paced enough to be the only really viable sport simulator to ever be a decent e-sport. It's true that I don't personally appreciate racing. However, my complaint about racing sims is about more than that. The problem with racing sims is that there is very little player-vs-player interaction. Now, before this post I had never seen a high-level racing game before, so I started to wonder: what if the guys bump into each other, and knock each other off-course? Or play mind games by blocking their opponent? In that case, I'd be wrong. So I did a quick Youtube search and I found this: ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? THE CARS GO RIGHT THROUGH EACH OTHER! Okay, I have to revise my position. The problem with racing sims is that there is ABSOLUTELY NO player-vs-player interaction. (Which is laughable, because real racing DOES involve a lot of racer-vs-racer interactions.) Frankly, it is a waste of time for WCG to run that tournament. A "two player" game is no different from two single-player games, so what's the point of having players "face off" against each other? Can you do ANYTHING to affect your opponent? I suppose you can shit-talk them before the game to piss them off, or put something in their food. But in the actual game, no, you can't. You're just playing single player. So if your opponent is better than you, then there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING you can do to win: you just have to play your best and pray to god that he fucks up. Now, as a spectator, how is WCG's tournament any different from watching these guys playing in single player on Youtube? The only difference is that they might crack under the pressure, or just randomly screw up and lose. That's it. Thing is, every other game in WCG is also going to have that kind of "entertainment" in it. But the other games (except Guitar Hero) offer so much more. For example, even if you've seen 10 different VODs on Youtube between, say, F91 and Nony, you're still going to want to watch them fight at WCG because you want to see how their strategies will unfold this time around, in addition to whether one of them will crack under the pressure. On the other hand, if you've seen both racer X and racer Y race on track T in single player, then you know exactly what their race "against" each other is going to look like: cracking under the pressure is the only uncertainty you have to look forward to. And that is why racing sims, Guitar Hero, and other single-player-times-two games are a waste of time in WCG. | ||
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benjammin
United States2728 Posts
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red.venom
United States4651 Posts
Less games as well. No one needs 10 games in a worldwide tournament. Its too much to focus on for the organization and when half the games are worthless its really just not benefiting anyone. I think on the player end they have fucked everyone over with less qualifiers, online only quals and all that. The whole problem is some qualifiers end up being like 5 people while others have a grip. IMO they should break up large land masses into simple regionals. USA could have 3. East, west, mid. Depending on turn out top 3-16 would go to a final tourney. Shit like that, no reason to try to have 20 qualifiers in all these random places with no players. Also actually paying people their travel fees and winnings would be nice rOFL! | ||
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
For fighting games, the US has just two qualifiers for SBO in Japan, one on the east coast and one on the west coast. And they have I think 2 to 4 for EVO in the US, again in major cities in different parts of the country. There is none of this "win a mini-tournament in bumfuck-nowhere and we'll pay you to travel to the national qualifier". Fighting game players have no trouble travelling to one of these 2 to 4 qualifier spots, or even just travelling to a major tournament that isn't a qualifier for anything. There's no reason why other game players can't do the same. | ||
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SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
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SevGaming
United States93 Posts
The most obvious thing I can think of to fix WCG is to hire competent admins that actually know what the games are. I played one of the BW admins a few months ago (Trev I think was his name), and I was speechless. He played at D level at best, was insanely BM, and had the nerve to say I mineral hacked after he lost. If these are the kinds of people they have refereeing games, then it's no wonder the events are in such bad shape these days. | ||
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SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
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SevGaming
United States93 Posts
On April 05 2009 00:42 SayaSP wrote: They don't have to be A+ to just referee lol but yeah understanding the game and etc is a must Yeah. This guy clearly didn't understand basic gameplay mechanics, as he thought I mineral hacked because my two-gas zerg was able to make more mutas than his one-gas zerg. I only made 1 muta more than he did, too. Likewise, there are plenty of players who know all about the game, but lack something else required to play well. Maybe reaction speed, or they just have trouble keeping up with what's going on. But I noticed the same thing when I was an admin on ICCup. None of the admins there (when I was still an admin) seemed to know anything about gameplay. I caught somebody maphacking (2v2 on Hunts, 6 games in a row this team double cannon rushed - each game straight to the opponents two bases), and the senior admins told me "antihack launcher is 100% hack proof. nobody can ever hack us" and dismissed the games as being luck. I also remember a replay I had to review of an A- vs an A. The A disconnected in the replay, and the A- got the points. However, the A had 3 bases to the A- one base, and the A- base minerals were about 600 from running out. Needless to say, it was hands down a win for the A player, and most likely the A- player drophacked him to avoid the loss. Senior admins reviewed the replay, and declared it a "clear win" for the A- player, because "he has 3 carriers". Apparently 3 carriers completely decimate 10 facts pumping gols. So yeah, from personal experience with most of the major leagues/tournies, I've definitely noticed that the level of common knowledge amongst the people running the events is extremely poor. A recent example that comes to mind is comparing the level of knowledge that WCG/ICCup admins have about BW with Frag Dominant. | ||
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ASAzerg
Canada33 Posts
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SevGaming
United States93 Posts
On April 05 2009 02:37 ASAzerg wrote: I talked to some Koreans and they said, back in high school, almost all their schoolmates play SC. I think this insane popularity among teenagers is what makes e-sport what it is in Korea today. Just my 2 cents. Lan cafes. SC/BW is a social event in Korea. | ||
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zizou21
United States3683 Posts
On April 05 2009 02:37 ASAzerg wrote: I talked to some Koreans and they said, back in high school, almost all their schoolmates play SC. I think this insane popularity among teenagers is what makes e-sport what it is in Korea today. Just my 2 cents. So wait, because SC is popular it is popular?? brilliant | ||
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On April 05 2009 04:54 zizou21 wrote: So wait, because SC is popular it is popular?? brilliant What? He's just reaffirming that SC is a successful e-sport in Korea because it is immensely popular. And I found his post informative. Unlike your post which is completely pointless. | ||
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zizou21
United States3683 Posts
On April 05 2009 06:03 Bill307 wrote: What? He's just reaffirming that SC is a successful e-sport in Korea because it is immensely popular. And I found his post informative. Unlike your post which is completely pointless. ... | ||
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Wohmfg
United Kingdom1292 Posts
The popularity came before the tournaments, or else there wouldn't be tournaments. Someone didn't start a tournament with a game that wasn't particularly popular, and then it became popular. But I think ASAzerg's point is a good one I believe there has to be a culture of gaming that is mainstream, which there just isn't in USA/Canada/Europe or where ever. I guess there won't be for a while. | ||
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GGQ
Canada2653 Posts
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