When we moved to Delve, we discovered that the valued service of Black Frog would cost us little or makes no difference to 100 million isk per trip (340,000 m^3). Naturally we would seek alternatives such as using Interdiction Nullified t3’s and sharing space in a Black Frog shipment. However nothing would be more valued than a direct wormhole from ‘YZ9’ to any location in Empire space, even lowsec was not out of the question. So it came to be. Our first wormhole to ‘YZ9’ came from Gallente highsec, and we made use of it. Being a direct wormhole, there was little risk of an attack, and we loaded up my freighter with everything we could, including virtually all of my possessions; excluding my “For Sale” containers in Jita. This mission was an easy and uneventful one, the freighter jumping into nullsec, unloading, then immediately disembarking back through the wormhole, tearing the singularity a new one.
The next direct wormhole we found was 2 jumps into lowsec. Not a huge issue, we had people available for escort and webs, and so we went. Again we filled the freighter to the point of bursting with assorted goods. My freighter arrived at the highsec to lowsec point en route to the wormhole ahead of the escort fleet, so I had to make some time looking like I was auto-piloting and/or just going to the station in that system. One or two ships passed me by before I got the all clear to jump into low. This wormhole however dropped us off in our clone system of ‘319’, and provided small annoyance contracting and trading containers and packages when people logged on and off over the next few days. The return trip was not to be, this time the Delve Goonswarm had seen my freighter dock in their NPC station and they were obviously interested in this large juicy kinder-egg of loot goodness, besides the fact the freighter is a ~800 million isk ship. So in Delve the freighter stayed, cooling its massive engines in the, unsettling Blood Raider Station. The days and weeks passed one at a time, no wormhole sufficient for the 0.9 billion kg ship. Ship battles and Blood Raider missioning happening outside, with my freighter tucked safely away. Soon we grew weary of the required logistics of the Delve area, and the mentality of the nearby bears disgusted us to no end. Our thoughts strayed to memories long past, of Oddel with our brothers in arms Gunpoint Diplomacy, and the more recent Saranen with PODLA and Tuskers. The only thing deemed worth remembering so far in Delve was the Goonswarm invitation to protect one of the Freeport stations, which fell regardless, and their surprising willingness to cyno in their Nyx on random targets, and to warp it randomly to gates at range. We had some good fights, but many turned out to be mop up work. Still my freighter stayed With the new patch, supplying new deadspace invulns through easy complexes, the best place for this being Saranen area, many of us started moving out. Some went to Oddel to visit Lowsec Warlord, High King Uberlisk, too long had he been without comradeship, he had been getting the cold shoulder from Gunpoint, for reasons not entirely unknown to us.. Most others made their way to Saranen to farm the complexes and brutally murder those who traveled there thinking of making some quick isk. Still my freighter stayed. One by one, two by two, YZ9 became quiet. Still my freighter stayed. Several of us lingered, delayed by the effort required to move across the vast distance to Saranen, and so we probed. We probed and we probed, hopes rising and falling as each wormhole discovered either failed to provide a proper route, or the path entered through c3 class wormholes, which provided too small of entrances for the freighter to fit. It looked as if my poor freighter would have to be put down, reprocessed into raw materials and sold off piecemeal as rifters, and its contents charged to Black Frog for the trip back to highsec. This would cost me near one billion isk, so I kept probing, desperate hope and fear of this loss.
Through the black of 319 the probes rang out, Unstable Wormhole, warping my tired Anathema to the signature, I was un-expectant. Surely it will turn out to be another c3, or a c5 with a static c5 to another c5 with a static null as it had always been. It turned out to be a c5, at least worth investigating. No signs of life, however the intel reports showed small instances of activity, so they must have come from somewhere. Probes revealed many signatures, including an entrance to a c5, several POS’s came up on scan here, I had found life; I was not looking for life. I returned to the first c5, in hopes I had missed something, it turns out I had. An exit to known space, a glorious exit, lowsec Nagamonen (sp?). I looked at my map, only 2 systems between me and Caldari Highsec, a mere 7 jumps from Jita. Happily I reported this in our chat, Def volunteering his alt as a scout. Karah was less optimistic, and he reported that the system was also within two jumps of the infamous Tama. With info pages reporting high travel activity, my hopes fell, Def was optimistic again, telling me that there were low ‘in space’ numbers, and the outgate in that area was quiet as it was off the main trail, and Tama was in the other direction. Doing some initial recon, and pending my decision to put my freighter and all my possessions at risk of lowsec travel, I logged off for a while, waiting until a quieter time.
Upon logging back in the evening, Def reported that there was little traffic, an occasional pod or hauler, with a single 5.0 security tengu pilot probably too scared of his own shadow to stick around. Kwark had also logged in after our glorious Titan gank (As seen on Reddit: I support people who rat in Titans) and was in high spirits. I had plenty of space left after my gear so he charged me with some of his things. This had the unintended effect of raising the value of the cargo to probably around 10 billion isk, I was about to jump my freighter one jump across a nullsec gate, through a c5 wormhole, and 2 jumps through lowsec, just 2 systems away from Tama, with 10 billion worth of gear in the hold. I was not to be un-scouted, Kwark with his cloaky t3 lead the way, followed with the most intimidating ship, the Bhaalgorn. Having jumped gate into ‘319’, the Bhaalgorn’s dual webs instawarped my freighter to the NPC station to pick up the final package, upon undocking local started to increase. On dscan a Rapier appeared, followed by a Dominix, my freighter was still aligning on station, we couldn’t miss this opportunity. The Bhaalgorn’s webs ineffective because of the undocking speed, and horrible agility of the freighter. Come on girl, warp, warp. After what seemed like eternity the freighter entered warp and began the slow trip (lol 0.75 AU/s) to the wormhole, a sigh of relief. Upon landing, the freighter and the Bhaalgorn were 7.5km away from the wormhole, damn bookmarks, local increased again, they better not have this wormhole probed. The Bhaalgorn and my travel rifter reached the entrance range with no problem, however the freighter is slow as all hell, the Dscan constantly warning of imminent peril. The wormhole shimmered and the glorious Providence entered unknown space. The Bhaalgorn locked up the freighter and was sent warping with its webs. The wormhole was all quiet. With the providence entering a stationless system, with its expensive cargo, I returned to a nervous state. The next few jumps with our two scouts and the Bhaalgorn’s webs was uneventful and efficient. Unfortunately upon decloaking after we safely arrived in highsec customs decided to give me another scare since I had forgotten I had some illegal drugs on board, and I was charged the massive amount of 131,000 isk for my infraction. It was at this point that I had discovered that Kwark forgot to double pack his Vauger, Mach, t3 hulls/subsystems, and faction/deadspace fittings.
On February 07 2012 02:37 Mandini wrote: The argument isnt for the amount of isk being injected into the economy, its the amount of isk added minus the amount of isk taken out. Incursions add isk without a good way of taking it out. At least null has sov fees, explo loot has contract fees, and missions have lp conversions that take away a good deal. Incursions dont have these sinks, you dont get a ton of lp from each site. Therefore the net amount of isk added is significant, where the rest of the isk injection methods are less so.
Theres no isk sink from normal bounties which if IRC was still greater than the bounty payouts of incursions. I would be interested in seeing data on mission payout vs lp payment costs incurred, with the amount of runners who ultimately ignore LP might skew this interestingly enough.
Ultimately where this argument has issues is the concept of inflation. People have been programmed by the real world that inflation is always bad. The yardstick of measuring inflation is not only skewed in comparison to irl, but the notion of what levels would be bad for the economy are not easily translated.
I'd very much argue that inflation in the eve economy is of minor consequence compared to the magic pedestal most players put it on, hell I'd even argue that rather significant inflation is good for the game, which is all relative anyways. Certainly though a game plan that sinks was equal to generation would be a terrible game, since ultimately the money supply (or money in circulation, theres a distinction here though) would be effectively getting smaller every day.
On February 07 2012 02:37 Mandini wrote: The argument isnt for the amount of isk being injected into the economy, its the amount of isk added minus the amount of isk taken out. Incursions add isk without a good way of taking it out. At least null has sov fees, explo loot has contract fees, and missions have lp conversions that take away a good deal. Incursions dont have these sinks, you dont get a ton of lp from each site. Therefore the net amount of isk added is significant, where the rest of the isk injection methods are less so.
Theres no isk sink from normal bounties which if IRC was still greater than the bounty payouts of incursions. I would be interested in seeing data on mission payout vs lp payment costs incurred, with the amount of runners who ultimately ignore LP might skew this interestingly enough.
Ultimately where this argument has issues is the concept of inflation. People have been programmed by the real world that inflation is always bad. The yardstick of measuring inflation is not only skewed in comparison to irl, but the notion of what levels would be bad for the economy are not easily translated.
I'd very much argue that inflation in the eve economy is of minor consequence compared to the magic pedestal most players put it on, hell I'd even argue that rather significant inflation is good for the game, which is all relative anyways. Certainly though a game plan that sinks was equal to generation would be a terrible game, since ultimately the money supply (or money in circulation, theres a distinction here though) would be effectively getting smaller every day.
The sink for bounties can be tied to the sov payments.
Also, the total inflation on a certain wednesday was measured to be 950bn.
On February 07 2012 02:37 Mandini wrote: The argument isnt for the amount of isk being injected into the economy, its the amount of isk added minus the amount of isk taken out. Incursions add isk without a good way of taking it out. At least null has sov fees, explo loot has contract fees, and missions have lp conversions that take away a good deal. Incursions dont have these sinks, you dont get a ton of lp from each site. Therefore the net amount of isk added is significant, where the rest of the isk injection methods are less so.
Theres no isk sink from normal bounties which if IRC was still greater than the bounty payouts of incursions. I would be interested in seeing data on mission payout vs lp payment costs incurred, with the amount of runners who ultimately ignore LP might skew this interestingly enough.
Ultimately where this argument has issues is the concept of inflation. People have been programmed by the real world that inflation is always bad. The yardstick of measuring inflation is not only skewed in comparison to irl, but the notion of what levels would be bad for the economy are not easily translated.
I'd very much argue that inflation in the eve economy is of minor consequence compared to the magic pedestal most players put it on, hell I'd even argue that rather significant inflation is good for the game, which is all relative anyways. Certainly though a game plan that sinks was equal to generation would be a terrible game, since ultimately the money supply (or money in circulation, theres a distinction here though) would be effectively getting smaller every day.
The sink for bounties can be tied to the sov payments.
Also, the total inflation on a certain wednesday was measured to be 950bn.
Is a weak link, secondly that isn't inflation, thats just how much was 'printed' well net gain in printing which doesn't really give you an idea of inflation regardless.
On February 07 2012 02:37 Mandini wrote: The argument isnt for the amount of isk being injected into the economy, its the amount of isk added minus the amount of isk taken out. Incursions add isk without a good way of taking it out. At least null has sov fees, explo loot has contract fees, and missions have lp conversions that take away a good deal. Incursions dont have these sinks, you dont get a ton of lp from each site. Therefore the net amount of isk added is significant, where the rest of the isk injection methods are less so.
Theres no isk sink from normal bounties which if IRC was still greater than the bounty payouts of incursions. I would be interested in seeing data on mission payout vs lp payment costs incurred, with the amount of runners who ultimately ignore LP might skew this interestingly enough.
The way the game is designed now is that killing pirate NPCs creates money and the sink mechanics in the game are designed to remove this. Repair costs, broker fees, sales tax, seeded NPC sales (like containers and shit) etc. are (according to CCP) designed to balance the ISK introduced into the game by bounties.
On February 07 2012 02:37 Mandini wrote: The argument isnt for the amount of isk being injected into the economy, its the amount of isk added minus the amount of isk taken out. Incursions add isk without a good way of taking it out. At least null has sov fees, explo loot has contract fees, and missions have lp conversions that take away a good deal. Incursions dont have these sinks, you dont get a ton of lp from each site. Therefore the net amount of isk added is significant, where the rest of the isk injection methods are less so.
Theres no isk sink from normal bounties which if IRC was still greater than the bounty payouts of incursions. I would be interested in seeing data on mission payout vs lp payment costs incurred, with the amount of runners who ultimately ignore LP might skew this interestingly enough.
The way the game is designed now is that killing pirate NPCs creates money and the sink mechanics in the game are designed to remove this. Repair costs, broker fees, sales tax, seeded NPC sales (like containers and shit) etc. are (according to CCP) designed to balance the ISK introduced into the game by bounties.
Of course, I was simply pointing out the claim that incursions didn't have a direct sink like was claimed with all ofther in comes, I was simply pointing out that the sink was just part of the general sink concept that it didn't necessarily need a direct.
That said, the notion that money created needs an equal amount of money destroyed or sunk is silly. Of course there are mechanisms in place if it gets out of control and to keep it manageable but there's simply no real data that the influx of cash from incursion bounties has done anything detrimental to the whole of the economy, and is largely a false talking point when people complain about it.
On February 07 2012 02:37 Mandini wrote: The argument isnt for the amount of isk being injected into the economy, its the amount of isk added minus the amount of isk taken out. Incursions add isk without a good way of taking it out. At least null has sov fees, explo loot has contract fees, and missions have lp conversions that take away a good deal. Incursions dont have these sinks, you dont get a ton of lp from each site. Therefore the net amount of isk added is significant, where the rest of the isk injection methods are less so.
Theres no isk sink from normal bounties which if IRC was still greater than the bounty payouts of incursions. I would be interested in seeing data on mission payout vs lp payment costs incurred, with the amount of runners who ultimately ignore LP might skew this interestingly enough.
The way the game is designed now is that killing pirate NPCs creates money and the sink mechanics in the game are designed to remove this. Repair costs, broker fees, sales tax, seeded NPC sales (like containers and shit) etc. are (according to CCP) designed to balance the ISK introduced into the game by bounties.
...there's simply no real data that the influx of cash from incursion bounties has done anything detrimental to the whole of the economy, and is largely a false talking point when people complain about it.
You're right, there isn't any data either way. But I think instead of waiting for data to see if letting large amounts of unsinked ISK into the market is damaging, it makes more sense to put a sink into it to make it correspond with the other ISK faucets in the game.
On February 07 2012 02:37 Mandini wrote: The argument isnt for the amount of isk being injected into the economy, its the amount of isk added minus the amount of isk taken out. Incursions add isk without a good way of taking it out. At least null has sov fees, explo loot has contract fees, and missions have lp conversions that take away a good deal. Incursions dont have these sinks, you dont get a ton of lp from each site. Therefore the net amount of isk added is significant, where the rest of the isk injection methods are less so.
Theres no isk sink from normal bounties which if IRC was still greater than the bounty payouts of incursions. I would be interested in seeing data on mission payout vs lp payment costs incurred, with the amount of runners who ultimately ignore LP might skew this interestingly enough.
The way the game is designed now is that killing pirate NPCs creates money and the sink mechanics in the game are designed to remove this. Repair costs, broker fees, sales tax, seeded NPC sales (like containers and shit) etc. are (according to CCP) designed to balance the ISK introduced into the game by bounties.
...there's simply no real data that the influx of cash from incursion bounties has done anything detrimental to the whole of the economy, and is largely a false talking point when people complain about it.
You're right, there isn't any data either way. But I think instead of waiting for data to see if letting large amounts of unsinked ISK into the market is damaging, it makes more sense to put a sink into it to make it correspond with the other ISK faucets in the game.
I don't like linking these people, but nonetheless inflation
Conversely, you could sink all that money coming in and do the exact opposite and damage the eve economy either way. Considering eves lack of retirees or people who need to live off of the fixed interest of a certain pile of money, the inflation tolerance threshold for the economy is much larger than many would appreciate. I would consider it much more likely that the eve economy would be far more damaged by deflation more easily than erring on the side of caution with having inflation.
However, again I must stress that increasing and decreasing the printing press doesn't guarantee movement of inflation it only results in pressure one way or the other, another argument for increasing the money supply here is that propensity for money to inadvertently die because some one stopped playing as well as the introduction of new and more players requiring an enlargement of the money supply.
Edit: This of course reminds me of a saying my banking professor used to say, "you could put all the economists in the world in a line end on end and they'd still never reach a conclusion."
On February 07 2012 02:37 Mandini wrote: The argument isnt for the amount of isk being injected into the economy, its the amount of isk added minus the amount of isk taken out. Incursions add isk without a good way of taking it out. At least null has sov fees, explo loot has contract fees, and missions have lp conversions that take away a good deal. Incursions dont have these sinks, you dont get a ton of lp from each site. Therefore the net amount of isk added is significant, where the rest of the isk injection methods are less so.
Theres no isk sink from normal bounties which if IRC was still greater than the bounty payouts of incursions. I would be interested in seeing data on mission payout vs lp payment costs incurred, with the amount of runners who ultimately ignore LP might skew this interestingly enough.
Ultimately where this argument has issues is the concept of inflation. People have been programmed by the real world that inflation is always bad. The yardstick of measuring inflation is not only skewed in comparison to irl, but the notion of what levels would be bad for the economy are not easily translated.
I'd very much argue that inflation in the eve economy is of minor consequence compared to the magic pedestal most players put it on, hell I'd even argue that rather significant inflation is good for the game, which is all relative anyways. Certainly though a game plan that sinks was equal to generation would be a terrible game, since ultimately the money supply (or money in circulation, theres a distinction here though) would be effectively getting smaller every day.
The sink for bounties can be tied to the sov payments.
Also, the total inflation on a certain wednesday was measured to be 950bn.
Is a weak link, secondly that isn't inflation, thats just how much was 'printed' well net gain in printing which doesn't really give you an idea of inflation regardless.
But that's the question. Was the 950b net or gross? If it was net, it is inflation, as it's already adjusted for sinks.
On February 07 2012 02:37 Mandini wrote: The argument isnt for the amount of isk being injected into the economy, its the amount of isk added minus the amount of isk taken out. Incursions add isk without a good way of taking it out. At least null has sov fees, explo loot has contract fees, and missions have lp conversions that take away a good deal. Incursions dont have these sinks, you dont get a ton of lp from each site. Therefore the net amount of isk added is significant, where the rest of the isk injection methods are less so.
Theres no isk sink from normal bounties which if IRC was still greater than the bounty payouts of incursions. I would be interested in seeing data on mission payout vs lp payment costs incurred, with the amount of runners who ultimately ignore LP might skew this interestingly enough.
Ultimately where this argument has issues is the concept of inflation. People have been programmed by the real world that inflation is always bad. The yardstick of measuring inflation is not only skewed in comparison to irl, but the notion of what levels would be bad for the economy are not easily translated.
I'd very much argue that inflation in the eve economy is of minor consequence compared to the magic pedestal most players put it on, hell I'd even argue that rather significant inflation is good for the game, which is all relative anyways. Certainly though a game plan that sinks was equal to generation would be a terrible game, since ultimately the money supply (or money in circulation, theres a distinction here though) would be effectively getting smaller every day.
The sink for bounties can be tied to the sov payments.
Also, the total inflation on a certain wednesday was measured to be 950bn.
Is a weak link, secondly that isn't inflation, thats just how much was 'printed' well net gain in printing which doesn't really give you an idea of inflation regardless.
But that's the question. Was the 950b net or gross? If it was net, it is inflation, as it's already adjusted for sinks.