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United States1216 Posts
On February 06 2012 11:29 Warri wrote:
I thought it would be more compared to ratting/npc bounties tbh. So i guess, if there were no incursions alot of that would be in mission rewards and npc bounties anyway, so incursions nbd c?
Indeed, confirmed. I was certainly expecting it to be more. Though to be fair I've never quite understood the apprehension about the amount of money flowing in from incursions.
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United States7481 Posts
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On February 06 2012 13:34 abominare wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 11:29 Warri wrote:
I thought it would be more compared to ratting/npc bounties tbh. So i guess, if there were no incursions alot of that would be in mission rewards and npc bounties anyway, so incursions nbd c? Indeed, confirmed. I was certainly expecting it to be more. Though to be fair I've never quite understood the apprehension about the amount of money flowing in from incursions.
I think a lot of the whining stems from the fact that this isk is seen as pretty risk free. At least ratting in null other players have the option to attack you, even though the chance of being attacked deep in friendly null is less than the chance of being suicide blackbirded.
Although as shown earlier today, even deep in friendly null you can still lose your ratting titan.
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Grats on the titan kill guys, but why the hell was the jammer offline?
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Maybe they cynoed in another titan which wanted to rat that day and forgot to turn it back online.
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Oh that's right they nerfed jump bridges. I totally forgot about that, haven't lived in 0.0 for quite a while
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On February 06 2012 16:31 Mandini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 13:34 abominare wrote:On February 06 2012 11:29 Warri wrote:
I thought it would be more compared to ratting/npc bounties tbh. So i guess, if there were no incursions alot of that would be in mission rewards and npc bounties anyway, so incursions nbd c? Indeed, confirmed. I was certainly expecting it to be more. Though to be fair I've never quite understood the apprehension about the amount of money flowing in from incursions. I think a lot of the whining stems from the fact that this isk is seen as pretty risk free.
Ok, yes, people may whine about this. But that's because they're bad. With mission ISK, you can remove practically every cent of it from the game by converting LP. And there's significant incentive to do this because you can spend some ISK into the nether and get a lot more ISK in value out of selling LP items.
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You get way more reward isk than you need to convert LP. One mission gives roughly 3million reward+bonus and 7k LP, whereas gyros for example cost 90k LP and 36m ISK, so you have the ISK covered just by the rewards. So any bounties you get are additional. And you know that 99% of the peope full clear 
Im not saying that incursions arent adding any money to the pool, but it is far far less than what i thought. If there were no incursions i bet there would just be at least 4tn more in bounties instead.
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On February 06 2012 23:42 Warri wrote:You get way more reward isk than you need to convert LP. One mission gives roughly 3million reward+bonus and 7k LP, whereas gyros for example cost 90k LP and 36m ISK, so you have the ISK covered just by the rewards. So any bounties you get are additional. And you know that 99% of the peope full clear Im not saying that incursions arent adding any money to the pool, but it is far far less than what i thought. If there were no incursions i bet there would just be at least 4tn more in bounties instead.
You've done a lot to prove my point so I'll just expand on the comments I made.
Yes 99% of people full clear, but we're talking about Domis drawing room aggro and going afk or Megathrons ABing up to each enemy, webbing it, and finally killing it. It takes a huge amount of time to generate those bounties (which is roughly 10m for a mission with "good" bounties). This gives the sink mechanics in the game "enough" time to mitigate the total ISK in the game. Shitty argument but it seems to work OK given the inflation stats in the past.
In addition, most people don't efficiently convert their LP. They will store up a huge amount of it and just decide one day to mass convert it and carry to market. They're more likely to go for easy conversions (conversions where the value is very apparent [i.e. right click view market details]) like implants which sink significantly more ISK than conversions like gyros.
Also, let's look at this from the other direction. Let's say you're right and that missions are some horrible ISK printing market destroying machine. Incursions are still far worse. So this argument does not work in their defense.
On February 06 2012 22:54 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 16:31 Mandini wrote:On February 06 2012 13:34 abominare wrote:On February 06 2012 11:29 Warri wrote:
I thought it would be more compared to ratting/npc bounties tbh. So i guess, if there were no incursions alot of that would be in mission rewards and npc bounties anyway, so incursions nbd c? Indeed, confirmed. I was certainly expecting it to be more. Though to be fair I've never quite understood the apprehension about the amount of money flowing in from incursions. I think a lot of the whining stems from the fact that this isk is seen as pretty risk free. Ok, yes, people may whine about this. But that's because they're bad. With mission ISK, you can remove practically every cent of it from the game by converting LP. And there's significant incentive to do this because you can spend some ISK into the nether and get a lot more ISK in value out of selling LP items.
Just to clarify my position here:
Easy access to ISK does not damage the game. So, to me, the argument that incursion ISK is too easy (and should therefore be removed) is something I don't care about. If it's too easy or too hard to access ISK/value, it's a balance or design issue.
Printing huge amounts of ISK into the game without providing a directly related sink for that ISK does damage the game by devaluing all the ISK that currently exists in the game. If the game has a total of 90 Trillion ISK, and some game mechanic allowed the players to print 10 Trillion ISK (with sinks factored in) over a year, that would represent ~10% inflation for the year. If you disagree that printing ISK is bad, then you will not understand or agree with my other arguments.
Easy access does kind of matter here, but it is not the root cause of the damage. If only 10 players had access to incursions, they could incursion their little hearts out and have almost no effect on the total game economy. The fact that incursions are generally easy access is not bad in itself (remember, it's a balance/design issue), it just highlights and underscores their broken way of printing money into the game.
If they changed incursions so that they gave less ISK and more LP (i.e. enough to sink the ISK you make), then they would no longer be damaging the economy, and it would just be a matter of balance (yet another omg you can make too much/little ISK in high/low/null).
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For comparison, the only game mechanic that allows you to print ISK besides incursions is wormhole loot being bought by NPCs. All other forms of ISK printing have sinks associated with them (like huge alliance fees in null etc.).
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You dont need sov to rat and the amount of rats you can kill is limited by your time, not by the amount of rats.
You generate ISK by doing exploration because 1) there are bounties and 2) overseer effects are bought by npcs.
Hell even insurance generates ISK because you get like tripple the money back that you paid if you die.
I know that people take a long time to mission, but how much time is wasted by fleets not getting anything from the incursion because the others did a little bit more dps. How much time is wasted because you lack a 9th or 10th fleet member. How much time is wasted because your silly drake fit doesnt get accepted into the fleet for half the day in which you could have missioned. My point is, if there were no incursions a lot of those 8tn would be in additional bounties, so the actually effect incursions have isnt that huge. And btw, the amount of people producing implants with LP isnt that high, since their still about .5k isk/LP, just like about any other caldari item.
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On February 07 2012 00:36 Warri wrote:
You dont need sov to rat and the amount of rats you can kill is limited by your time, not by the amount of rats. [1]
You generate ISK by doing exploration because 1) there are bounties and 2) overseer effects are bought by npcs.
Hell even insurance generates ISK because you get like tripple the money back that you paid if you die. [2]
I know that people take a long time to mission, but how much time is wasted by fleets not getting anything from the incursion because the others did a little bit more dps. How much time is wasted because you lack a 9th or 10th fleet member. How much time is wasted because your silly drake fit doesnt get accepted into the fleet for half the day in which you could have missioned. [3]
My point is, if there were no incursions a lot of those 8tn would be in additional bounties, so the actually effect incursions have isnt that huge. [4]
[1] Someone somewhere pays sov, the exception being NPC null, where it's more profitable to do missions anyway. Not sure if I'm mistaken or don't understand the game mechanics, but when I went around looking for anoms in Delve, most systems were completely empty or had 1 low-level anom in them. So it seems to me that you can't rat whenever you want, and it is based on the amount of rats (i.e. respawn rate of some kind).
Also this has nothing to do with incursions.
[2] The items that you get for exploration can only be sold on contracts, so you will be paying contract fees in addition to the other sink mechanics in the game. Also you can't farm insurance and there has been significant analysis of its effect on the economy in the past (the upshot being that insurance is a small blip in comparison to basic sink mechanics).
Nothing to do with incursions.
[3] If everyone was terrible at the game, no one could even do incursions. Or everyone could do incursions but in twice the time period. I see what you're saying, but why not just address the mechanic itself? I mean, surely people will only get better at running incursions thereby eventually invalidating this argument entirely.
[4] I'm arguing against incursions out of principle. Saying that "hey this other stuff is less/more broken too so why not just accept incursions" is not something I am terribly convinced by. CCP should also fix wormhole loot and overseer effects should be bought and used by players.
Basically, inflation is bad, and anything that makes more inflation rather than less inflation is bad, and I'm against it based on this.
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United States7481 Posts
yeah truesec of npc null sucks so it's really shitty for ratting. i think most npc null regions have really bad anom spawns too, although i don't know if that's directly related to truesec
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He was FC, he gets to write the BR.
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On February 07 2012 00:58 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2012 00:36 Warri wrote:
You dont need sov to rat and the amount of rats you can kill is limited by your time, not by the amount of rats. [1]
You generate ISK by doing exploration because 1) there are bounties and 2) overseer effects are bought by npcs.
Hell even insurance generates ISK because you get like tripple the money back that you paid if you die. [2]
I know that people take a long time to mission, but how much time is wasted by fleets not getting anything from the incursion because the others did a little bit more dps. How much time is wasted because you lack a 9th or 10th fleet member. How much time is wasted because your silly drake fit doesnt get accepted into the fleet for half the day in which you could have missioned. [3]
My point is, if there were no incursions a lot of those 8tn would be in additional bounties, so the actually effect incursions have isnt that huge. [4] [1] Someone somewhere pays sov, the exception being NPC null, where it's more profitable to do missions anyway. Not sure if I'm mistaken or don't understand the game mechanics, but when I went around looking for anoms in Delve, most systems were completely empty or had 1 low-level anom in them. So it seems to me that you can't rat whenever you want, and it is based on the amount of rats (i.e. respawn rate of some kind). Also this has nothing to do with incursions. [2] The items that you get for exploration can only be sold on contracts, so you will be paying contract fees in addition to the other sink mechanics in the game. Also you can't farm insurance and there has been significant analysis of its effect on the economy in the past (the upshot being that insurance is a small blip in comparison to basic sink mechanics). Nothing to do with incursions. [3] If everyone was terrible at the game, no one could even do incursions. Or everyone could do incursions but in twice the time period. I see what you're saying, but why not just address the mechanic itself? I mean, surely people will only get better at running incursions thereby eventually invalidating this argument entirely. [4] I'm arguing against incursions out of principle. Saying that "hey this other stuff is less/more broken too so why not just accept incursions" is not something I am terribly convinced by. CCP should also fix wormhole loot and overseer effects should be bought and used by players. Basically, inflation is bad, and anything that makes more inflation rather than less inflation is bad, and I'm against it based on this.
1. im talking about belt rats and signatures.
2. Overseer effects anyone? You cant farm insurance no, but its ISK getting into the game.
Yes, this has nothing to do with incursions, so what? The question is, if there were no incursions, what would those people do with their time? Thats right, farm money through other means anyway.
3. Incursions have a hardlimit. Only so many spawn at a time and only so many sites are in each system. If 50 people contest one vanguard site only one of them will get the iskies. It doesnt matter how good you are, at leasst you will be spending the 2 minutes for warps and taking gates and locking things. No matter how better people get at it, the amount of isk/time is limited and probably already at the limit.
4. True, but MY point is exactly that incursions arent as bad as people say. The isk getting into the game didnt suddenly tripple or quadruple, but only increased by maybe 5-10%. Its not like there was an equillibrium and incursions suddenly broke it.
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The argument isnt for the amount of isk being injected into the economy, its the amount of isk added minus the amount of isk taken out. Incursions add isk without a good way of taking it out. At least null has sov fees, explo loot has contract fees, and missions have lp conversions that take away a good deal. Incursions dont have these sinks, you dont get a ton of lp from each site. Therefore the net amount of isk added is significant, where the rest of the isk injection methods are less so.
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Lalalaland34483 Posts
Contract costs for explo loot is significant? :/
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Lalalaland34483 Posts
On February 07 2012 01:02 Antoine wrote:
yeah truesec of npc null sucks so it's really shitty for ratting. i think most npc null regions have really bad anom spawns too, although i don't know if that's directly related to truesec
Syndicate worst region in eve, QED.
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I don't think anyone outside CCP can say definitively how much of a problem Incursions are, but:
They are better ISK than L4 missions, and in a lot of cases better than 0.0 anoms
They became popular a little over 6 months ago
In the past 6 months inflation has been much higher than I recall it ever being. It's not just PLEX, you can look at JFs, towers or trit. I don't remember trit being at 4.40 or whatever it's at now since maybe 2008 or 2009 which was before the bots had pushed it down to the absurdly low 2.7 levels.
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EPT
