EPTEVE Corporation - Page 1517
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Impervious
Canada4200 Posts
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
Terror of Molden Heath | ||
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Impervious
Canada4200 Posts
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Divine-Sneaker
Denmark1225 Posts
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34491 Posts
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jopirg
United States81 Posts
If you don't have extra ISK laying around you're doing something wrong, and I'm a bad because I'm putting mine to work? Are you really so space poor that you can't wait a day to cash out your LP? Margin trading is one of the few ways to make money in EVE that's better than FW. The reason "the minerals I mine are free" is stupid is because you're reducing your ISK/hour by not counting the hours spent mining. Selling your LP items yourself multiplies your ISK/hour. Lets say it takes you one hour to make a million LP running FW missions, and you can sell this LP to buy orders for one billion ISK, your ISK/hour is 1 billion ISK an hour. (are you following me, do I need to slow down?) Now lets say you spend two fucking minutes setting up your own sell orders at 10% higher, (you don't even need an alt or trading know how to do this) your ISK/hour is now 1.06 billion per hour. As the volume increases so does the efficiency, and 10% really is the lowest you should go, 15-20% isn't hard at all. So tell me, how does making higher ISK an hour make me a dumbass? | ||
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Impervious
Canada4200 Posts
On April 14 2013 06:24 jopirg wrote: Are you fucking kidding me, we're hating on margin trading now? If you don't have extra ISK laying around you're doing something wrong, and I'm a bad because I'm putting mine to work? Are you really so space poor that you can't wait a day to cash out your LP? Margin trading is one of the few ways to make money in EVE that's better than FW. The reason "the minerals I mine are free" is stupid is because you're reducing your ISK/hour by not counting the hours spent mining. Selling your LP items yourself multiplies your ISK/hour. Lets say it takes you one hour to make a million LP running FW missions, and you can sell this LP to buy orders for one billion ISK, your ISK/hour is 1 billion ISK an hour. (are you following me, do I need to slow down?) Now lets say you spend two fucking minutes setting up your own sell orders at 10% higher, (you don't even need an alt or trading know how to do this) your ISK/hour is now 1.06 billion per hour. As the volume increases so does the efficiency, and 10% really is the lowest you should go, 15-20% isn't hard at all. So tell me, how does making higher ISK an hour make me a dumbass? And you are completely missing the point. Good job. | ||
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Johnny Business
Sweden1251 Posts
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On April 14 2013 06:24 jopirg wrote: Are you fucking kidding me, we're hating on margin trading now? If you don't have extra ISK laying around you're doing something wrong, and I'm a bad because I'm putting mine to work? Are you really so space poor that you can't wait a day to cash out your LP? Margin trading is one of the few ways to make money in EVE that's better than FW. The reason "the minerals I mine are free" is stupid is because you're reducing your ISK/hour by not counting the hours spent mining. Selling your LP items yourself multiplies your ISK/hour. Lets say it takes you one hour to make a million LP running FW missions, and you can sell this LP to buy orders for one billion ISK, your ISK/hour is 1 billion ISK an hour. (are you following me, do I need to slow down?) Now lets say you spend two fucking minutes setting up your own sell orders at 10% higher, (you don't even need an alt or trading know how to do this) your ISK/hour is now 1.06 billion per hour. As the volume increases so does the efficiency, and 10% really is the lowest you should go, 15-20% isn't hard at all. So tell me, how does making higher ISK an hour make me a dumbass? Calling members of the hatchery space poor. Hahahahaha. HAHAHAHAHAHA. | ||
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34491 Posts
On April 14 2013 06:29 Johnny Business wrote: Orandos is hating on everyone trying to stop his business making money of lazy people. That's not Orandos... And I don't really see where he's calling Hatchery poor. | ||
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419
Russian Federation3631 Posts
Now lets say you spend two fucking minutes setting up your own sell orders at 10% higher, (you don't even need an alt or trading know how to do this) your ISK/hour is now 1.06 billion per hour. ok, 6% of 60 minutes = 3.6 minutes, so its maybe slightly better? but you inevitably get .01'd so I suspect that you end up spending more than 3.6 minutes setting up sell orders (log in time + checking time + changing orders all factors into this). here is Impervious's point. If you could make 60m in 2 minutes doing margin trading, then you could theoretically make 1.8b/hr doing said margin trading (which would make it better than being farmer pig). Of course the analogy sorts of breaks down because you have to turn over 18b in volume + set up the sells in one hour of pay attention time, which is probably going to be difficult. then again, you could just pay lazy farmers for their LP, then you could convert and sell at 10% margin...if that really beats 1b/hr I'd be shocked. Margin trading is one of the few ways to make money in EVE that's better than FW no really, it isn't. See above. Especially if you are playing jita games. | ||
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Mandini
United States1717 Posts
On April 14 2013 07:10 419 wrote: people tend to wildly overestimate how much money they actually make from margin trading, and similarly underestimate the time they invest into it ok, 6% of 60 minutes = 3.6 minutes, so its maybe slightly better? but you inevitably get .01'd so I suspect that you end up spending more than 3.6 minutes setting up sell orders (log in time + checking time + changing orders all factors into this). here is Impervious's point. If you could make 60m in 2 minutes doing margin trading, then you could theoretically make 1.8b/hr doing said margin trading (which would make it better than being farmer pig). Of course the analogy sorts of breaks down because you have to turn over 18b in volume + set up the sells in one hour of pay attention time, which is probably going to be difficult. then again, you could just pay lazy farmers for their LP, then you could convert and sell at 10% margin...if that really beats 1b/hr I'd be shocked. no really, it isn't. See above. Especially if you are playing jita games. 10% margin on buying LP is pretty dumb. Thankfully i was making a lot more, sometimes even 20 times that. It probably beat 1b/hr of effort in putting up the orders, but definitely not 1b/hr of constant time. If I wanted to go on a binge of pve for 20 hours, I would definitely choose FW over LP purchasing, but as something to put an hour or two in every few days, I was quite happy with what I did. I'm not sure as to the volumes for FW items, but there is a point at which you have so many faction mods that putting them all into buys would be extremely detrimental to profit margins. You cant just pump 200 gyros to buys without adverse effects. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On April 14 2013 07:05 Firebolt145 wrote: That's not Orandos... And I don't really see where he's calling Hatchery poor. Are you really so space poor that | ||
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jopirg
United States81 Posts
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
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Body_Shield
Canada3368 Posts
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jopirg
United States81 Posts
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
On April 14 2013 06:24 jopirg wrote: Are you fucking kidding me, we're hating on margin trading now? [1] Are you really so space poor that you can't wait a day to cash out your LP? [2] Margin trading is one of the few ways to make money in EVE that's better than FW. [3] The reason "the minerals I mine are free" is stupid is because you're reducing your ISK/hour by not counting the hours spent mining. Selling your LP items yourself multiplies your ISK/hour. [4] Lets say it takes you one hour to make a million LP running FW missions, and you can sell this LP to buy orders for one billion ISK, your ISK/hour is 1 billion ISK an hour. (are you following me, do I need to slow down?) Now lets say you spend two fucking minutes setting up your own sell orders at 10% higher, (you don't even need an alt or trading know how to do this) your ISK/hour is now 1.06 billion per hour. As the volume increases so does the efficiency, and 10% really is the lowest you should go, 15-20% isn't hard at all. [5] So tell me, how does making higher ISK an hour make me a dumbass? [6] You seem pretty worked up about some random person's opinion about you. Not to mention a random "spacepoor" person. Maybe you have other problems you should work out aside from your concepts of economics in EVE. [1] You completely missed the point - multiple times, actually. Let's look at the exchange you had in a more focused way. On April 14 2013 04:31 jopirg wrote: ..there are more than a few things going for more than 1k ISK an LP as long as you're willing to use your own sell orders. On April 14 2013 04:36 Impervious wrote: If you are trying to do anything other than basing your LP calculations off of buying off of sell orders, and selling to buy orders, then what you are not doing is taking this margin trading into account... On April 14 2013 05:01 jopirg wrote: ...it really takes no additional time (????) and I make an extra ~20% from all my LP... and from everyone Else's LP. On April 14 2013 05:03 Impervious wrote: You're not making an extra 20% off of the LP, you're making that off of trading the margins on those items. There is a difference. On April 14 2013 05:06 jopirg wrote: I get 20% more than you do when I trade in my LP, why does it matter? The real value of an item you want to buy is the value of the lowest sell order. The real value of an item you want to sell is the highest buy order. These should be the fundamental concepts of your understanding of economics in EVE. You say something more or less like "I can artificially inflate the value of my LP by utilizing buy/sell orders". But you're not inflating the value of the LP, you're injecting additional effort and making additional money off that effort. You're not making more money off LP, you're making more money off playing trader. You really actually fail to see the difference and even ask straight out why it matters. It matters because your perception of the economics of the situation is skewed. You are basically tricking yourself into thinking you're getting extra money for nothing. You even say this yourself. [2] Calling someone from Hatchery spacepoor is straight-up rejection of reality - which actually goes hand in hand with your concept that the real value of an item you want to sell is whatever you can sell order it at (eventually). [3] This is a big rejection of reality again. I'll share with you a terrible secret of making money in EVE using the marketplace. There are quite literally thousands of traders just like you, who have the same concept of EVE economics and the same ideas about how to get rich. They think they're the few -, the financial elite - and that their money comes at the expense of the ratting and missioning proletariat. They'd never dirty their hands doing such coarse manual labor - except for greed, obviously. But in reality, they are spending a lot of effort (despite what they all claim) making pennies. Can you make money doing margin trading? Absolutely. Can you make a lot of money this way? That depends entirely on your perception of what constitutes a lot of money. When you're brand new to EVE, doing level 2 missions seems like pretty decent money. You can afford to buy destroyers really easily in only a handful of missions. Then again, someone running level 4's seems like a stupendous amount of income. And then when you hear about the fabled wizardry of marketmancers, your brain practically collapses at the unfathomable sums they can magic up. When I was new to EVE, this was the transformation I took. I learned (from someone else) about selling ammo using mission LP. At the time, it was really good money, especially at low volume (which is what I was dealing with). This was before the LP devaluation patch that changed missions away from using agent quality etc. When the patch came through, I had a fair sum of money (or so I figured) and decided to get into contract trading (something else I learned from yet another person). This was before faction/deadspace items existed on the marketplace. They could only be bought and sold using contracts. The advantage here to using the marketplace is that no one is going to unlist their contract and .01 you - or at least very few that are being rational about it. The other thing is that the contract market price differentials were extreme from region to region. So you could buy a bunch of stuff in one region, ship it over to another region and make sometimes 50% or more. The interface helped you do this since you could see the prices of every contract in every region (something you can't do in the EVE market). When they patched contracts, I had quite a lot more money than I started with and was probably one of the richer members of Hatchery. I honestly didn't know what to do with the money to make more of it. Mission LP was still a thing because Hatchery had worked it out to a foolproof routine. I figured I'd go back and have a try at margin trading - the original thing I'd heard you could make oodles of money with. I'm going to be entirely straightforward and say that margin trading is an extremely good way to make money when you have hardly any (but more than 0) - and an extremely bad way to make money when you have a lot. This is completely counter to "common" knowledge about margin trading, but I'll explain why. Let's say you have 10 million ISK you're willing to throw into the market. You can probably very easily make that into 20 million with one or two cycles of buy --> sell. If you have 100 million, it might be a bit harder to make it into 200 million with 2 cycles. Margin trading, you're effectively making a percentage of the value of an item. There are exceptions, but you're generally limited to making percentages on the value of items because to do otherwise would violate the normal mathematics of volume trade. You even say yourself that "10% really is the lowest you should go" because you have an understanding that you can't add arbitrary value to items - it works based on percentage. Consider your 10% minimum rule. Now if you're buying and reselling something that costs 10m ISK, you're only going to be making 1-2m ISK per cycle per item (less when you take into account taxes, .01ing etc.). If you do this with something that costs 100m, you can make 10-20m per cycle. Except it doesn't work that way. In general, the higher absolute value items are, the more tightly the margins squeeze closer. This is a phenomenon accounted for by applying special circumstances to the mathematics. There are some items which temporally violate this generality because they are affected by factors essentially "outside" of simple volume trade considerations. The highest-end items obviously don't follow this since they are constrained by rarity more than anything else. But everything between officer items and T1 junk follow the pattern of becoming less efficiently traded (in terms of percentage) as their absolute price rises. Let's look at 1b ISK. We'll use Drakes and say you can buy about 20 Drakes. You could probably sell 20 Drakes in 2 days in Jita or 1 day somewhere else ("somewhere else" meaning "you are doing more work to move Drakes which costs time/money") without breaking a sweat. How about 10b ISK. That's 200 Drakes. You'd have lots of trouble selling that in a day in Jita, even if you spent lots of time .01ing and babysitting. How about 100b? 2000 Drakes. Ain't gonna happen. From my experience with margin trading, everything starts to break down when you've got ~10b ISK into cycles. You have to have a diverse set of items that you're moving in order to guarantee turnover. All these items require overhead (unless you can somehow memorize all the figures associated with them). All this overhead requires time that could be spent doing something else. When you log in to your trading account guy and see you wallet has bumped significantly, you feel good about yourself. You feel like you did something that required intelligence and that you accomplished something. But you're not making much money, especially considering the amount of time spent overall researching and managing (and re-researching) market effects. So with margin trading, you're stuck right up against 10b ISK (imo - some can do better if they're more efficient/clever about it than I was). After a while, I just couldn't sink more than 15b into the market and expect a reasonable amount of ISK back. It just started piling up in my wallet. If you insist on sticking to the market, you can do much better than margin trading (so much better...) by manipulating prices on items. This takes a bit more research and planning but a lot less time, and you can throw significantly more money into it. As a simple repeatable example, I once sold about 100 Drakes in one day for 66m which I had bought for varying prices lower than 49m. I bought ~80% of those Drakes in one sitting over the course of an hour and the rest here and there while I "waited" for the price to go up. No babysitting, no monitoring, no daily routine. That's just one item over essentially the course of 2 days (with some downtime in between those 2 days). There are few more which have more or less infamy associated with them. When manipulating prices of items, the general pattern is you buy them all at once (you can't buy them consistently over time, it doesn't work), then sell them all at once. There is no work in between unless you are doing something fancy like manipulating related items. There is no particular percentage barrier and the mathematics do not follow normal volume trade rules so you can put lots of money into a single product and still get good returns. But even that pales in comparison to the amount of money you can make from FW. Even the lowest level of FW LP generation makes more money than being "clever" on the market. [5] The bolded statement is an indication that something is wrong with your analysis. As the number of operations of an action increases, the efficiency decreases. This is true in every facet of human existence. It's true in mathematics, it's true in physics, and it's true in economics. I think the whole point that you're missing is that instead of spending time (trust me, I know it's more than 2 minutes) messing with market orders, you could spend that time doing more FW. If you're at a point where "efficiently selling" your FW goods makes sense to you, you're not doing enough FW to be making any real money. [6] If you're doing FW correctly, you end up with what is basically a high-volume hoard of FW items. If you spend time "efficiently selling" every one of these items, you will have spent your time inefficiently - you could just hoard more FW items and drop them into buy orders. /edit - word correction | ||
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Nub4ever
Canada1981 Posts
On April 14 2013 04:31 jopirg wrote: It's not bad, but you can get better if you want to put in a little more legwork. Go to http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/lpstore/ and look up 'Tribal Liberation Force' there are more than a few things going for more than 1k ISK an LP as long as you're willing to use your own sell orders. I could but I don't have too long, I don't have a hauling alt atm and my sub only lasts for so much longer... so if anyone would be up for this PM me ! | ||
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Impervious
Canada4200 Posts
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