EPTThe Official Fighting Games Topic - Page 87
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pachi
Melbourne5338 Posts
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SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
On December 17 2008 07:49 pachi wrote: You used to consider GGPO as serious competitive alternative to a real life sit down? not entirely but it was at least like maybe practicable on | ||
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KOFgokuon
United States14899 Posts
On December 17 2008 07:50 SayaSP wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6fR5UtcTMA#t=9m49s ahahaha that was awesome | ||
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
Along with the things that Myrmidon posted, if you are getting relatively smooth games but your latency feels more noticeable than usual, you might want to turn down GGPO's delay- under options, there's a slider for "smoothing" (which is just delay to smooth out laggy games); IIRC it defaults at 2 frames, which is certainly enough to feel weird. Truth be told, 1 delay is playable enough for people with ~100ms or less; I play 0 delay pretty comfortably at ~60ms or so. That said, there is a host of delays that make the whole "old arcade games" netplay work in the first place- emulators have a few frames of delay, any kind of converter will have delay, there's obviously going to be some latency because it's the internet, etc. Some days, GGPO will just be hella laggy (even in games or with people that it normally wouldn't have problems with) and the only things you can do are put up with it or wait to see if it calms down later. anotak- Way to hug Alabama's nuts while offering nothing constructive to the discussion, as usual. GGPO not being a serious form of competition is "news" as old as Kailera being full of lag-abusing kids who downloaded some combo macros and think they're hot stuff. When several top players in the nation (not just your home state) seem to think GGPO is decent enough to draw them out and play against each other when every other netplay option in the past has just been a joke, I'd say that's a pretty good endorsement. And "practice" is more than just learning to do some B&B combo; GGPO can be valuable matchup experience. It can be useful for learning how to move properly. Stuff like that, stuff you can't learn in training mode, for when there isn't a gathering or an arcade or whatever to go and figure stuff out. Plus GGPO has by far the best international connections I've ever experienced; even if it isn't "serious competition," it's fun to randomly get to play Japanese 3S players or Chinese KoF players or whatever. One major factor for people getting good is playing and learning from lots of people (good and bad), which is why random Japanese arcade scrubs would be average/above average competitive players in the States based on skill-level. "Serious competition" isn't the only way to become a serious competitor. SayaSP- That's how I aspire to win all my Tager games. | ||
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pachi
Melbourne5338 Posts
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
On December 17 2008 08:39 pachi wrote: imho, gem fighter on ggpo is a legitimate competitive scene. I'm already practicing it for the inevitable GGPO Gem Fighter at Evo. | ||
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
Your Tager is looking a bit more confident in that vid than you did in the Arakune vids =p Random hint- after 623C, walk 6C > 5D, you can cancel 5D into 421[B] to get a bunch of free magnet bar; or you can cancel 5D into 623[C] to fish for a tech- more specifically, hold it long enough to pull them straight at you, release, and Buster them since you pulled them down to earth so fast with magnetism. Pretty easy to adjust it for a full-out mixup if they keep teching it poorly. lol @ Kira style A > A, pause, Buster~ Good backdash busters, too. | ||
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
On December 17 2008 08:36 MCMcEmcee wrote: anotak- Way to hug Alabama's nuts while offering nothing constructive to the discussion, as usual. GGPO not being a serious form of competition is "news" as old as Kailera being full of lag-abusing kids who downloaded some combo macros and think they're hot stuff. When several top players in the nation (not just your home state) seem to think GGPO is decent enough to draw them out and play against each other when every other netplay option in the past has just been a joke, I'd say that's a pretty good endorsement. And "practice" is more than just learning to do some B&B combo; GGPO can be valuable matchup experience. It can be useful for learning how to move properly. Stuff like that, stuff you can't learn in training mode, for when there isn't a gathering or an arcade or whatever to go and figure stuff out. Plus GGPO has by far the best international connections I've ever experienced; even if it isn't "serious competition," it's fun to randomly get to play Japanese 3S players or Chinese KoF players or whatever. One major factor for people getting good is playing and learning from lots of people (good and bad), which is why random Japanese arcade scrubs would be average/above average competitive players in the States based on skill-level. "Serious competition" isn't the only way to become a serious competitor. I haven't seen or heard about any top players for 3S on GGPO... Super Turbo yeah but not 3S. Laggy matchup experience isn't real matchup experience. | ||
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CynanMachae
Canada1459 Posts
On December 16 2008 10:51 SayaSP wrote: This video is mad funny WHERE ARE YOU AT Watched this almsot ten times now  Just amazing | ||
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
On December 17 2008 09:23 anotak wrote: I haven't seen or heard about any top players for 3S on GGPO... Super Turbo yeah but not 3S. Laggy matchup experience isn't real matchup experience. says the guy with barely any real matchup experience to begin with~ As for no 3S top players on GGPO, given that every top 3S player in the States has a relatively nearby arcade for their competition (and as far as I can tell, a lot of them don't even really play much casual 3S at this point, what with SF4 being out and Sirlin Turbo being the new online hotness), it's hardly surprising that they aren't on GGPO right now; there are better games to spend their casual time on. That said, I've seen fubarduck, Sabin, and a few other guys on GGPO back when GGPO 3S was a fairly recent thing. If you have a thriving arcade scene (or OWN an arcade, as it were), obviously you aren't going to feel as inclined to jump on the net and play more games very often, especially games where you've already got your competition nearby (and games you've played for so long that you don't really ever need to practice anyways). It's also probably just a stupid mentality from a lot of 3S players who think they're too good for online play in general; given that ST is actually strict in terms of timings and has a much more established history from which to build those kinds of egos, you'd think the situation would be reversed. omg I missed my kara-DP that I probably would have missed offline because I'm not as good as I think but now I can blame it on an extra few frames of latency instead omg | ||
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pachi
Melbourne5338 Posts
Anotak vs MCMcEmcee Bo9 at GGPO Gem Fighter WHERE YOU AT? | ||
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SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
On December 17 2008 08:44 MCMcEmcee wrote: I'm already practicing it for the inevitable GGPO Gem Fighter at Evo. I like my Sakura over ur Gief | ||
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
On December 17 2008 09:52 MCMcEmcee wrote: says the guy with barely any real matchup experience to begin with~ I don't know why you feel a need to insult me when I haven't said anything insulting to you before. You're also basing your opinions on my skill level on the very first time I ever played 3rd Strike at all and I still was figuring out the controls. Sure, that was a mere 3 months ago, but I've been playing for hours a day with people much better than me and I've been getting better every moment of it. Either way, talking shit about my skill level is out of line. Perhaps I was wrong about good players playing or not playing, but the average certainly seems quite low on there. 3S is a different game than ST. It also is simply less affected by lag because of the style of gameplay it has. The timings are certainly stricter (in ST) because of shit like random input windows and I'm quite aware of this. ST also just straight up doesn't lag as much. A plausible explanation for this is that ST is older so it likely has less data to transfer and probably faster because of this probably. In 3S, the lag is more likely to let you get away with things that the opposing player would normally block and/or punish (because of the decreased reaction time window), making matchup experience in my opinion, somewhat faulty. | ||
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
There are things that really ought to be a given (ex. Shoto sweep is punishable on block) but that isn't the kind of thing you should need much play time to figure out. What IS useful is seeing the ranges where a Shoto player uses their sweep, conditions where they will or won't go for it, what you can do to get them to do it, etc. Like Ken vs. Chun, sweep easily punishes whiffed bk+fierce on reaction, and it can "punish" Chun for pacing back and forth at her s.fierce range (Ken can also walk up sweep a whiffed s.fierce if it just barely whiffed, but that's kinda hard). Chun can of course just start "randomly" blocking low while she's doing the normal pacing thing, to see if she can draw out a sweep, or she can just make sure she's not in a position to whiff stuff. Or like, Yun/Yang jumps at Ken in a neutral situation. Frame data says "uppercut dat" and that is indeed the default reaction for a lot of people, but jump back j.RH on reaction to the jump is way easier/safer than trying to uppercut a divekick and generally more successful. Or Urien vs. Makoto, at around Makoto's max dash range Urien can anticipate a dash -> throw and do "random" c.fierce at that range if he expects her to dash; if he catches her, free juggle. It's not terribly hard to guess that Makoto wants to do dash -> throw once she gets into that sweet spot, either, if you know to be looking for it. These kinds of things are precisely what a no-pressure environment like GGPO is perfect for figuring out. Unless you're on some twisted faux Sirlin "PLAY TO WIN OMG" power trip or something, where the very thought of losing to overheads is the worst thing ever, there is a lot of opportunity on GGPO to be like "I wonder if Ken's s.jab beats Chun's s.fierce" (it does if your spacing is right, incidentally). All that to say that 3S is a fighting game, not a parry-situation minigame. GGPO is useful for learning how to play it like the former, not the latter. It's far more productive to be like "oh hey this move beats that move, I didn't know that" than to be like "omg I missed my hit-confirm lag makes this game pointless just like these guys I know said omg." | ||
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Trumpet
United States1935 Posts
Probably the best thing about GGPO though is that its free. Even if the matches aren't as perfect quality as they could be if you played only on arcade, it doesn't cost you the quarter per match or the gas to get back and forth from an arcade. You're getting a hell of a lot more than you're paying for | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + both round 2 and 3 are awesome | ||
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
Dogura too clutch, poor Slayer almost put it away a few times and then lost in like the most frustrating ways possible (lol wakeup horse CH into huge combo). Sad for me because that's the first time I've seen a Japanese Slayer use my color lol | ||
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H
New Zealand6138 Posts
Wow, that is ridiculously clutch I'd be pissed if I happened to be that Slayer | ||
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
On December 17 2008 13:00 MCMcEmcee wrote: The reason I bring that up is because useful matchup experience involves a lot of observing ranges/angles/move interactions over a large sample of matches, not just stuff you could find out by looking at a frame data chart and think "oh that's punishable." If you are a stage where you still don't know how to block certain moves or what is/isn't punishable by whatever moves, then you maybe are going to have trouble learning that on GGPO (though truth be told, a lot of blocking well is an anticipation/mind game thing more so than reaction thing). That is not an insult, it's just the way you talk about matchup experience heavily implies that you still aren't looking for the right things. There are things that really ought to be a given (ex. Shoto sweep is punishable on block) but that isn't the kind of thing you should need much play time to figure out. What IS useful is seeing the ranges where a Shoto player uses their sweep, conditions where they will or won't go for it, what you can do to get them to do it, etc. Like Ken vs. Chun, sweep easily punishes whiffed bk+fierce on reaction, and it can "punish" Chun for pacing back and forth at her s.fierce range (Ken can also walk up sweep a whiffed s.fierce if it just barely whiffed, but that's kinda hard). Chun can of course just start "randomly" blocking low while she's doing the normal pacing thing, to see if she can draw out a sweep, or she can just make sure she's not in a position to whiff stuff. Or like, Yun/Yang jumps at Ken in a neutral situation. Frame data says "uppercut dat" and that is indeed the default reaction for a lot of people, but jump back j.RH on reaction to the jump is way easier/safer than trying to uppercut a divekick and generally more successful. Or Urien vs. Makoto, at around Makoto's max dash range Urien can anticipate a dash -> throw and do "random" c.fierce at that range if he expects her to dash; if he catches her, free juggle. It's not terribly hard to guess that Makoto wants to do dash -> throw once she gets into that sweet spot, either, if you know to be looking for it. These kinds of things are precisely what a no-pressure environment like GGPO is perfect for figuring out. Unless you're on some twisted faux Sirlin "PLAY TO WIN OMG" power trip or something, where the very thought of losing to overheads is the worst thing ever, there is a lot of opportunity on GGPO to be like "I wonder if Ken's s.jab beats Chun's s.fierce" (it does if your spacing is right, incidentally). All that to say that 3S is a fighting game, not a parry-situation minigame. GGPO is useful for learning how to play it like the former, not the latter. It's far more productive to be like "oh hey this move beats that move, I didn't know that" than to be like "omg I missed my hit-confirm lag makes this game pointless just like these guys I know said omg." I do understand a lot of these concepts. And, perhaps I do lack matchup experience outside of one particular matchup. That matchup Ken vs. Dudley, Ken because I play Ken and nobody else ever, and Dudley, because my teacher plays Dudley and maybe Hugo when he wants to go easy on me. Though he has played other character briefly to show me matchups, and that's something that's pretty easy to pick up on. In one game against his Dudley, I learn more than I do in a hundred games online. He's probably the best 3rd Strike player in the Atlantic South outside of Florida at the moment (based on placings at impact clash and the various georgia tournaments and the Birmingham monthly). Sure, I've played plenty of Kens, Akumas, Yuns, Alexes, Qs (I don't know why this guy is so popular around here), and Makotos, and I demolish most of them (at least in casuals). As far as higher level tournament players I've lost to them plenty before, but it wasn't because of that particular matchup but rather just sloppy play in general by me. I understand what matchup specifics are. I know why standing fierce is good against Dudley (and at what positions) but not so much as good against most other characters. And I don't play by frame data of course, I use it to see IF things are possible in some ways, but of course I don't worship it. And what you mentioned isn't even that matchup specific, many characters love to dash up and throw (sure, it's a particularly really really good option for makoto), and knowing everyone's maximum dash range isn't that hard. And I understand what you're saying about conditions where a player will or won't use their sweep. What I'm saying is that lag will make these conditions different. And there are situations that I see to be much more difficult online (ex. punishing a Ken c.mk with corkscrew blow on reaction like my opponent does, unless he seriously doesn't expect c.mk at that moment (which is hard to do, considering how much I overuse c.mk to super)). What you said about punishing Chun's b+fierce is again, something that takes reaction time. Online you have less reaction time and naturally it'll happen less often. It's nowhere near as fast as corkscrew blowing c.mk so it still happens a lot probably... but again, situations arise because of the lack of punish or the lack of blocking of certain moves that mean that you're learning the game's psychology and yomi differently than the real game. And that means that you will not be able to read players as correctly when it comes down to it. It also means you won't be prepared for people who can do things on reaction like that. And people online also play expecting certain things to be safer so many use those much more, again making it further faulty experience. It's just not the same matchup anymore. | ||
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