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On May 24 2011 11:56 Khelz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:52 JeeJee wrote:
mmr works, if you can't get out of a certain mmr range (given an adequate number of games), you belong there, that's all Yeah, looking now I am only 21 games in but it feels like I've played 100 at this point. I'm warding, farming pretty well, getting kills and it all counts for nothing when top is 0/11 combined and practically suiciding. So aggravating.
20 games is a decent enough sample. if your win rate is around 50%, then the rating you're at is the rating you belong at right now. nothing more to it. i'd wager you will move up in a while, but not because you suddenly get better teammates, but because you will get better as a result of getting used to the game. (after all, these are your first 20 games of hon)
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On May 24 2011 11:56 Khelz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:52 JeeJee wrote:
mmr works, if you can't get out of a certain mmr range (given an adequate number of games), you belong there, that's all Yeah, looking now I am only 21 games in but it feels like I've played 100 at this point. I'm warding, farming pretty well, getting kills and it all counts for nothing when top is 0/11 combined and practically suiciding followed by the whole ''this game is stupid'' leaving. So aggravating.
I found over time i naturally rose out of the 1500 bracket, admittedly the 1600 bracket isn't a god send but its a fair bit better. The trick is to play with either 1/2 mates or to communicate nicely with your team. Nicely being the keyword. The moment that you act aggressive all sort of shit explodes in a pub game.
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On May 24 2011 11:53 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:36 Judicator wrote:
Find people to play with. Like really, match making as nice as it is in the right direction still fails miserably compared to a well-run in-house league, I really don't know why S2 can't implement a GUI for IHL management and graft it into their chat/lobby system.
Edit:
Just to put it into perspective for those of you who don't know, the best places to find PUGs for the semi-competitive and competitive are still on IRC for DotA despite the leaps and bounds that IHLs have undergone since the first IHCS, which is kind of sad.
Edit 2:
This is also why I find the MM system and stats system horrid for these kind of games. Pairing up 10 semi-random people together in a 5v5 is akin to chopping your own dick off when just 1 person can swing the game dramatically. That makes it extremely difficult for newbies to get into it.
And if you are expecting the "coaching" system to help for Dota 2...just think of people like me raging at you, telling you what to do, but doing so intensely? And that's coming from people who actually know what to do, but instead getting paired up with a coach that's like one of the billion "skilled" DotA players from NA with some of the shittiest manners? Yeah. gee judicator, why do you think quakenet went up????????????????? 
Gee rabidch, quakenet is how old? And fuck using the IRC system, its like pimped out game, still using IRC to effectively communicate.
Edit:
And JeeJee's use of "aggressive" will include the following at the very least: asking questions, telling them not to dive towers, telling them to not gank with a carry and asking them to farm, telling them to pay attention to the minimap, telling them to not run towards a 3 man gank, then explaining why the two of you will die to said gank.
That's all aggressive in a pubbers eye.
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The Gummy Award for being Gummy.
Edit: YAY ME!
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On May 24 2011 12:01 SirMilford wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 11:56 Khelz wrote:On May 24 2011 11:52 JeeJee wrote:
mmr works, if you can't get out of a certain mmr range (given an adequate number of games), you belong there, that's all Yeah, looking now I am only 21 games in but it feels like I've played 100 at this point. I'm warding, farming pretty well, getting kills and it all counts for nothing when top is 0/11 combined and practically suiciding followed by the whole ''this game is stupid'' leaving. So aggravating. I found over time i naturally rose out of the 1500 bracket, admittedly the 1600 bracket isn't a god send but its a fair bit better. The trick is to play with either 1/2 mates or to communicate nicely with your team. Nicely being the keyword. The moment that you act aggressive all sort of shit explodes in a pub game.
i hope you attribute your raise of mmr from 1500 to 1600 not to better teammates but to your own improvement. it's pretty important actually, to recognize things you did well or are doing well now that you weren't before.
there isn't a thing like "hellhole mmr range". there's just differences in skill. 1400s gives headaches to 1600s because they're bad. 1600s give headaches to me for the same reason. likewise, i give headaches to 1900s because i'm bad. all is relative, obviously.
if you're without wax better than the mmr range you're at, you will crush the games and rise quickly to your true mmr, no matter what. this has been proven many times by many different people.
@judi i think you're getting your names confused i only tend to mention why they fucked up after they do it, not before. sticks better that way, plus they have time to think about it while they're dead.
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On May 24 2011 12:34 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 12:01 SirMilford wrote:On May 24 2011 11:56 Khelz wrote:On May 24 2011 11:52 JeeJee wrote:
mmr works, if you can't get out of a certain mmr range (given an adequate number of games), you belong there, that's all Yeah, looking now I am only 21 games in but it feels like I've played 100 at this point. I'm warding, farming pretty well, getting kills and it all counts for nothing when top is 0/11 combined and practically suiciding followed by the whole ''this game is stupid'' leaving. So aggravating. I found over time i naturally rose out of the 1500 bracket, admittedly the 1600 bracket isn't a god send but its a fair bit better. The trick is to play with either 1/2 mates or to communicate nicely with your team. Nicely being the keyword. The moment that you act aggressive all sort of shit explodes in a pub game. i hope you attribute your raise of mmr from 1500 to 1600 not to better teammates but to your own improvement. it's pretty important actually, to recognize things you did well or are doing well now that you weren't before. there isn't a thing like "hellhole mmr range". there's just differences in skill. 1400s gives headaches to 1600s because they're bad. 1600s give headaches to me for the same reason. likewise, i give headaches to 1900s because i'm bad. all is relative, obviously. if you're without wax better than the mmr range you're at, you will crush the games and rise quickly to your true mmr, no matter what. this has been proven many times by many different people. @judi i think you're getting your names confused i only tend to mention why they fucked up after they do it, not before. sticks better that way, plus they have time to think about it while they're dead.
I agree with you to some degree. I definitely have room for improvement but there's also a very noticeable difference between my play and my teammates as of late. I've had a few that don't even buy items when the game starts -_- I just disagree that I ''belong'' with ''them''.
Silhouette no items till 13 minutes....
I guess it just hasn't been my week, I think the free-to-play week also aggravated the situation a lot. IE feed mid 66 kills for the hell of it. Just had a game with a decent group of players that picked champs appropriately (we won by a large margin) and I had a Pebbles and Corrupted Disciple that played well. (PK on Pebbles, smart initiations, wards, good mia calls, etc). There's hope I guess, my friend seems to think things will improve greatly now that the free week is over. Seems it really inflated the bracket with bads more than I had thought.
I'll have all Summer to work at it! Woohoo!
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On May 24 2011 12:34 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 12:01 SirMilford wrote:On May 24 2011 11:56 Khelz wrote:On May 24 2011 11:52 JeeJee wrote:
mmr works, if you can't get out of a certain mmr range (given an adequate number of games), you belong there, that's all Yeah, looking now I am only 21 games in but it feels like I've played 100 at this point. I'm warding, farming pretty well, getting kills and it all counts for nothing when top is 0/11 combined and practically suiciding followed by the whole ''this game is stupid'' leaving. So aggravating. I found over time i naturally rose out of the 1500 bracket, admittedly the 1600 bracket isn't a god send but its a fair bit better. The trick is to play with either 1/2 mates or to communicate nicely with your team. Nicely being the keyword. The moment that you act aggressive all sort of shit explodes in a pub game. i hope you attribute your raise of mmr from 1500 to 1600 not to better teammates but to your own improvement. it's pretty important actually, to recognize things you did well or are doing well now that you weren't before. there isn't a thing like "hellhole mmr range". there's just differences in skill. 1400s gives headaches to 1600s because they're bad. 1600s give headaches to me for the same reason. likewise, i give headaches to 1900s because i'm bad. all is relative, obviously. if you're without wax better than the mmr range you're at, you will crush the games and rise quickly to your true mmr, no matter what. this has been proven many times by many different people. @judi i think you're getting your names confused i only tend to mention why they fucked up after they do it, not before. sticks better that way, plus they have time to think about it while they're dead.
There are, in fact, "hellhole" mmr ranges because of at certain ranges, the variance of the games is a lot higher than for other ranges. Being in a hellhole doesn't mean it's "impossible" to get out, it just means that it might take more games on average because the difference in your skill from your current mmr is a smaller factor in whether you win or lose compared to whether you have a purposeful griefer or a BR feeder on your team. (Other team might have one and you will auto-win).
MMR over the long term is an unbiased estimator of skill level but it's not a high-precision measure because it is so sensitive to high variance games.
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A 1500 player MIGHT get "stuck" at 1200 due to teammates for a FEW games, but if they're "really" 1500 then they should be able to carry easily. I would never, ever get stuck at 1200 even solo. I can mid carry with any hero at that bracket and win, with almost any item build as well.
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On May 24 2011 12:57 Ganfei2 wrote:
A 1500 player MIGHT get "stuck" at 1200 due to teammates for a FEW games, but if they're "really" 1500 then they should be able to carry easily. I would never, ever get stuck at 1200 even solo. I can mid carry with any hero at that bracket and win, with almost any item build as well.
Thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster I'm not that low. I guess I'm just overreacting, if i can go from 1580 to 1440 in like seven games I'm sure I can pull myself out with a couple hard carry games. Just going to be a PITA.
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On May 24 2011 12:52 Gummy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 12:34 JeeJee wrote:On May 24 2011 12:01 SirMilford wrote:On May 24 2011 11:56 Khelz wrote:On May 24 2011 11:52 JeeJee wrote:
mmr works, if you can't get out of a certain mmr range (given an adequate number of games), you belong there, that's all Yeah, looking now I am only 21 games in but it feels like I've played 100 at this point. I'm warding, farming pretty well, getting kills and it all counts for nothing when top is 0/11 combined and practically suiciding followed by the whole ''this game is stupid'' leaving. So aggravating. I found over time i naturally rose out of the 1500 bracket, admittedly the 1600 bracket isn't a god send but its a fair bit better. The trick is to play with either 1/2 mates or to communicate nicely with your team. Nicely being the keyword. The moment that you act aggressive all sort of shit explodes in a pub game. i hope you attribute your raise of mmr from 1500 to 1600 not to better teammates but to your own improvement. it's pretty important actually, to recognize things you did well or are doing well now that you weren't before. there isn't a thing like "hellhole mmr range". there's just differences in skill. 1400s gives headaches to 1600s because they're bad. 1600s give headaches to me for the same reason. likewise, i give headaches to 1900s because i'm bad. all is relative, obviously. if you're without wax better than the mmr range you're at, you will crush the games and rise quickly to your true mmr, no matter what. this has been proven many times by many different people. @judi i think you're getting your names confused i only tend to mention why they fucked up after they do it, not before. sticks better that way, plus they have time to think about it while they're dead. There are, in fact, "hellhole" mmr ranges because of at certain ranges, the variance of the games is a lot higher than for other ranges. Being in a hellhole doesn't mean it's "impossible" to get out, it just means that it might take more games on average because the difference in your skill from your current mmr is a smaller factor in whether you win or lose compared to whether you have a purposeful griefer or a BR feeder on your team. (Other team might have one and you will auto-win). MMR over the long term is an unbiased estimator of skill level but it's not a high-precision measure because it is so sensitive to high variance games.
Nah, I think you are mistaken. It has been shown time and time again. A 1650 player gets S2'd down to 800 rating, gets back up to 1550 with a 90% winrate upon which he starts to lose more games (since he's approaching his true mmr). 1900 player resets his account to 1500 and smashes his way to 1800s with a high winrate. Both of these were entirely solo mm. there are several other examples.
You might lose the occasional game due to having 4 dedicated feeders on your team, I'm not denying that. But you won't ever 'get stuck' at a rating you don't belong at.
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You also can't blame bad team mates because the other team is just as likely to get bad team mates so assuming that you are better than everyone else the chance of you getting someone bad is 1/4 and the chance they have a bad team mate is 1/5
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On May 24 2011 13:15 GhostKorean wrote:
You also can't blame bad team mates because the other team is just as likely to get bad team mates so assuming that you are better than everyone else the chance of you getting someone bad is 1/4 and the chance they have a bad team mate is 1/5
So in this case with the 1/5 up and 1/4 down, your random walk has a positive expected value if you're better than your current MMR. What I meant in my previous post about variance can be seen in the following:
If you win every single game, the time it takes you to get to net X victories is X games. If every game is chiefly controlled by a 4/9 chance of a feeder being on your team and a 5/9 chance of a feeder being on the other team, the net expectation for the game is that you gain 1/9 net victories per game. To get those net X victories, you need to play 9X games. That's what I mean by my assertion that hellholes do exist at lower levels. It takes longer to get your MMR up because the controlling factor is the presence of a griefer as opposed to how good you are (I have won a game solo when a devourer on our team fed the opponent's magebane 25 times on purpose, while throwing grief hooks everywhere to save the other team, but only that one time. Usually somebody just dc's as a result of the griefing).
To make this example a little more concrete, let's assume it takes a net 5 victories to get your MMR from 1200 to 1300. If the controlling factor is the presence of a griefer, then even assuming you're better than your current MMR, this 100 point gap will take you 45 games. And when almost half of your games end up with a griefer/feeder/troll/first-time-on-character/no-ward-scout it does start to feel like hell.
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On May 21 2011 23:15 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2011 23:09 tomatriedes wrote:
Speaking of Dota Sven is due for a buff imo. I mean why would you choose Sven when you can choose ES, whose stun is far better and whose ulti is 5x better. Cause you never played a Sven or a ES. ES does one thing better than Sven, and that's zone control, Sven does everything else better. ES tops out in effectiveness at pretty much 11 in the flow of a game (some could argue 9), Sven does not.
I guess I must be playing him wrong because I felt like I couldn't have as much impact in the game with Sven. I mean with ES once I get dagger, I found the blink-ulti-fissure-totem combo could do a huge amount of damage at once and really set up a team battle. But with Sven I felt like I would stun and then run in and attack with him but he's not doing that much damage quick enough. Maybe I need to spend more time to farm and get better items for him? I get vanguard, wand, treads, then BKB and by then there doesn't seem to be much time to farm. I think without vanguard and BKB he dies pretty quick though.
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On May 24 2011 14:45 Gummy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 13:15 GhostKorean wrote:
You also can't blame bad team mates because the other team is just as likely to get bad team mates so assuming that you are better than everyone else the chance of you getting someone bad is 1/4 and the chance they have a bad team mate is 1/5 So in this case with the 1/5 up and 1/4 down, your random walk has a positive expected value if you're better than your current MMR. What I meant in my previous post about variance can be seen in the following: If you win every single game, the time it takes you to get to net X victories is X games. If every game is chiefly controlled by a 4/9 chance of a feeder being on your team and a 5/9 chance of a feeder being on the other team, the net expectation for the game is that you gain 1/9 net victories per game. To get those net X victories, you need to play 9X games. That's what I mean by my assertion that hellholes do exist at lower levels. It takes longer to get your MMR up because the controlling factor is the presence of a griefer as opposed to how good you are (I have won a game solo when a devourer on our team fed the opponent's magebane 25 times on purpose, while throwing grief hooks everywhere to save the other team, but only that one time. Usually somebody just dc's as a result of the griefing). To make this example a little more concrete, let's assume it takes a net 5 victories to get your MMR from 1200 to 1300. If the controlling factor is the presence of a griefer, then even assuming you're better than your current MMR, this 100 point gap will take you 45 games. And when almost half of your games end up with a griefer/feeder/troll/first-time-on-character/no-ward-scout it does start to feel like hell.
and yet, if you're significantly better than the rating you're at, a single feeder doesn't matter much. if a single feeder (barring exceptional circumstances) is enough to cause you to lose 100% of the time, you're not really that much better than the rating you're playing at.
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Why would you get vanguard on hammer, I dont get it he has no lack of armor or HP.
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On May 24 2011 15:02 Dacendoran wrote:
Why would you get vanguard on hammer, I dont get it he has no lack of armor or HP.
But even more hp and damage reduction never hurts. Unless you're martyr and are trying to land the killing blow with Q.
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On May 24 2011 14:45 Gummy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 13:15 GhostKorean wrote:
You also can't blame bad team mates because the other team is just as likely to get bad team mates so assuming that you are better than everyone else the chance of you getting someone bad is 1/4 and the chance they have a bad team mate is 1/5 So in this case with the 1/5 up and 1/4 down, your random walk has a positive expected value if you're better than your current MMR. What I meant in my previous post about variance can be seen in the following: If you win every single game, the time it takes you to get to net X victories is X games. If every game is chiefly controlled by a 4/9 chance of a feeder being on your team and a 5/9 chance of a feeder being on the other team, the net expectation for the game is that you gain 1/9 net victories per game. To get those net X victories, you need to play 9X games. That's what I mean by my assertion that hellholes do exist at lower levels. It takes longer to get your MMR up because the controlling factor is the presence of a griefer as opposed to how good you are (I have won a game solo when a devourer on our team fed the opponent's magebane 25 times on purpose, while throwing grief hooks everywhere to save the other team, but only that one time. Usually somebody just dc's as a result of the griefing). To make this example a little more concrete, let's assume it takes a net 5 victories to get your MMR from 1200 to 1300. If the controlling factor is the presence of a griefer, then even assuming you're better than your current MMR, this 100 point gap will take you 45 games. And when almost half of your games end up with a griefer/feeder/troll/first-time-on-character/no-ward-scout it does start to feel like hell.
You are assuming two things: 1. There will be exactly one griefer/feeder in every game and 2. The side with less feeders win every game. You are also forgetting about the skill difference between the two teams and most importantly, luck with what heroes your teammates feel like playing that game. Sorry for my bad explanation with the 1/4 1/5 I meant it as a specific example of one scenario
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On May 24 2011 15:38 GhostKorean wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 14:45 Gummy wrote:On May 24 2011 13:15 GhostKorean wrote:
You also can't blame bad team mates because the other team is just as likely to get bad team mates so assuming that you are better than everyone else the chance of you getting someone bad is 1/4 and the chance they have a bad team mate is 1/5 So in this case with the 1/5 up and 1/4 down, your random walk has a positive expected value if you're better than your current MMR. What I meant in my previous post about variance can be seen in the following: If you win every single game, the time it takes you to get to net X victories is X games. If every game is chiefly controlled by a 4/9 chance of a feeder being on your team and a 5/9 chance of a feeder being on the other team, the net expectation for the game is that you gain 1/9 net victories per game. To get those net X victories, you need to play 9X games. That's what I mean by my assertion that hellholes do exist at lower levels. It takes longer to get your MMR up because the controlling factor is the presence of a griefer as opposed to how good you are (I have won a game solo when a devourer on our team fed the opponent's magebane 25 times on purpose, while throwing grief hooks everywhere to save the other team, but only that one time. Usually somebody just dc's as a result of the griefing). To make this example a little more concrete, let's assume it takes a net 5 victories to get your MMR from 1200 to 1300. If the controlling factor is the presence of a griefer, then even assuming you're better than your current MMR, this 100 point gap will take you 45 games. And when almost half of your games end up with a griefer/feeder/troll/first-time-on-character/no-ward-scout it does start to feel like hell. You are assuming two things: 1. There will be exactly one griefer/feeder in every game and 2. The side with less feeders win every game. You are also forgetting about the skill difference between the two teams and most importantly, luck with what heroes your teammates feel like playing that game. Sorry for my bad explanation with the 1/4 1/5 I meant it as a specific example of one scenario
Hey, it's not so unreasonable, I think the same things when I play DotA with you.
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So, now that free play is over I've decided to purchase this game.
Problem is, online payments have really 0 culture in Hungary, and to top that off, my father is extremely suspicious about them too (well, I can agree with him - with the recent hacks that happened to Sony for example, I'd definitely just use a different credit card, not the one I use daily - if I even had one ).
With that said, is there any other way to purchase this game, some form of retail payment maybe? It's not the monetary factor, 30$ is not that much I'd say...
I'm even willing to swap with someone who didn't try SC2 / wants another account (not that I'd find that many on a SC / SC2 forum lol I haven't used it for the last 6 months, so it's fresh after the ladder reset if anyone is interested in the Euro ladder).
Any kind of help is appreciated.
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EPT
