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The Official Street Fighter 4 Thread - Page 16

Forum Index > General Games
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Scooter
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States747 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-22 23:26:43
February 22 2009 22:36 GMT
#301
On February 23 2009 06:59 SayaSP wrote:
Scootz check out this match at about 5:50, gief vs sagat http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6220055


holy crap man, thanks for that. Nice find by the way, that shit came out... what... 2 days ago? One thing I found that zangief did shitton better than me was meaty splash into mixup/combo. Also when back to corner he punished with 360 Kick instead of SPD to put himself in Splash distance.

I never noticed it before since I'm used to 3S, but when Gief went cr.lk cr.lk cr.lk cr.lk ex ban flat, I shat bricks.

@ZoW

Honestly, use whatever is more comfortable. Some people play better with square gate at max potential and some don't. I am as comfortable on square gate as I am with circle gate (lulz marvel) but 360's, or rather 225's now, come out faster, cleaner, and more consistently for me on square gate than circle gate as contradictory as it sounds.

I gotta get one of my roomies to learn Sagat so that I can get that match-up down.

What characters are all yall maining?

edit: also lulz at the nico comments saying Zangi 2:8 Sagat

edit2: Oh yeaaah, 400 posts. So elite.
My unblocks gets yo curleh mustache wet のωの
sung_moon
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States10110 Posts
February 22 2009 22:52 GMT
#302
On February 23 2009 07:36 Scooter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2009 06:59 SayaSP wrote:
Scootz check out this match at about 5:50, gief vs sagat http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6220055


holy crap man, thanks for that. Nice find by the way, that shit came out... what... 2 days ago? One thing I found that zangief did shitton better than me was meaty splash into mixup/combo. Also when back to corner he punished with 360 Kick instead of SPD to put himself in Splash distance.

I never noticed it before since I'm used to 3S, but when Gief went cr.lk cr.lk cr.lk cr.lk ex ban flat, I shat bricks.

@ZoW

Honestly, use whatever is more comfortable. Some people play better with square gate at max potential and some don't. I am as comfortable on square gate as I am with circle gate (lulz marvel) but 360's, or rather 225's now, come out faster, cleaner, and more consistently for me on square gate than circle gate as contradictory as it sounds.

I gotta get one of my roomies to learn Sagat so that I can get that match-up down.

What characters are all yall maining?

edit: also lulz at the nico comments saying Zangi 2:8 Sagat


u should play trumpet... hes got a sick sagat...

if u want to play a rog msg me up
Forever Young
Scooter
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States747 Posts
February 22 2009 23:30 GMT
#303
Haha, check out this match at 1:25

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm6221255

Comment at the bottom says "Can't show lol"

Rest of the comments loling, saying "mosaic lol" cause they only use mosaics to cover up Peni and Pussi and extreme gore in Japan.
My unblocks gets yo curleh mustache wet のωの
MCMcEmcee
Profile Joined April 2008
United States1609 Posts
February 22 2009 23:31 GMT
#304
On February 23 2009 07:36 Scooter wrote:
What characters are all yall maining?

Viper, Sagat, Chun
pretty much play everybody to some level of proficiency, other than Dhalsim (who I just haven't bothered spending any time on, but having SF4 on console means I can learn him without losing $1 per game)
[iHs]MCMcEmcee@UFO | のヮの
ZoW
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3983 Posts
February 22 2009 23:40 GMT
#305
So Tougeki Damashii released a new tier list recently(Arcade only):

+ Show Spoiler +
S +

Sagat, Viper, Akuma, Zangief

S

Ryu, Boxer, Rufus, Blanka

A
Chun li, Dictator, Ken, Dhalsim, Abel, Honda, El Fuerte

B
Claw, Guile


the courage to be a lazy bum
sung_moon
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States10110 Posts
February 23 2009 00:00 GMT
#306
On February 23 2009 08:40 ZoW wrote:
So Tougeki Damashii released a new tier list recently(Arcade only):

+ Show Spoiler +
S +

Sagat, Viper, Akuma, Zangief

S

Ryu, Boxer, Rufus, Blanka

A
Chun li, Dictator, Ken, Dhalsim, Abel, Honda, El Fuerte

B
Claw, Guile




i dont c how blanka is higher than bison and ken..... im also surprised akuma is top tier
Forever Young
SayaSP
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Laos5494 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-23 00:23:43
February 23 2009 00:01 GMT
#307
@ZoW: posting old news lolol.

@Scooter: Chun, Sak, Viper. That order. Obviously I dabble with everyone else.

Edit: http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/6113/1235346231809.jpg
[iHs]SSP | I-NO-KI BOM-BA-YE | のヮの http://tinyurl.com/MLIStheCV , MLIS.
Scooter
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States747 Posts
February 23 2009 00:44 GMT
#308
On February 23 2009 09:01 SayaSP wrote:
Edit: http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/6113/1235346231809.jpg


this made me sad.

:[

On February 23 2009 08:40 ZoW wrote:
So Tougeki Damashii released a new tier list recently(Arcade only):

+ Show Spoiler +
S +

Sagat, Viper, Akuma, Zangief

S

Ryu, Boxer, Rufus, Blanka

A
Chun li, Dictator, Ken, Dhalsim, Abel, Honda, El Fuerte

B
Claw, Guile




is there a tier chart to go along with this? I can't see Viper having more advantaged matchups than Gief.

It's kinda sad, I've been grinding out splash, cr.lp cr.lp cr.lk ex ban flat non stop for the last 2 days. Links are harder than keeper-jin, I swear.

Is it possible to beat out SRK's with meaty splash? I've tried doing it really deep and really late (scraping their ass practically) and it still trades with Ken SRK. Amidoinitright?
My unblocks gets yo curleh mustache wet のωの
iloveroo
Profile Joined February 2009
Canada294 Posts
February 23 2009 00:45 GMT
#309
SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER QUICKLY PLEASE
I HAVE PS3 and i wasn't gonna get the joystick, cause i thought it would cost much more but then i don't know the price of it

so i was wondering, i heard that the game comes with the joystick, that cost $69.99.. am i correct? that if you decide to get the game w/ the joystick it will cost $69.99, or is it $69.99 for just the joystick.
Scooter
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States747 Posts
February 23 2009 00:56 GMT
#310
On February 23 2009 09:45 iloveroo wrote:
SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER QUICKLY PLEASE
I HAVE PS3 and i wasn't gonna get the joystick, cause i thought it would cost much more but then i don't know the price of it

so i was wondering, i heard that the game comes with the joystick, that cost $69.99.. am i correct? that if you decide to get the game w/ the joystick it will cost $69.99, or is it $69.99 for just the joystick.

the stick is probably 70 dollars on its own. If it came bundled for 70 dollars it's probably a really, really bad stick (you can't even build a cardboard stick for that much). The game costs 60 dollars on its own.
My unblocks gets yo curleh mustache wet のωの
iloveroo
Profile Joined February 2009
Canada294 Posts
February 23 2009 00:57 GMT
#311
On February 23 2009 09:56 Scooter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2009 09:45 iloveroo wrote:
SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER QUICKLY PLEASE
I HAVE PS3 and i wasn't gonna get the joystick, cause i thought it would cost much more but then i don't know the price of it

so i was wondering, i heard that the game comes with the joystick, that cost $69.99.. am i correct? that if you decide to get the game w/ the joystick it will cost $69.99, or is it $69.99 for just the joystick.

the stick is probably 70 dollars on its own. If it came bundled for 70 dollars it's probably a really, really bad stick (you can't even build a cardboard stick for that much). The game costs 60 dollars on its own.

thats stupid, both seperate.. screw that -.-
sung_moon
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States10110 Posts
February 23 2009 01:15 GMT
#312
On February 23 2009 09:57 iloveroo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2009 09:56 Scooter wrote:
On February 23 2009 09:45 iloveroo wrote:
SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER QUICKLY PLEASE
I HAVE PS3 and i wasn't gonna get the joystick, cause i thought it would cost much more but then i don't know the price of it

so i was wondering, i heard that the game comes with the joystick, that cost $69.99.. am i correct? that if you decide to get the game w/ the joystick it will cost $69.99, or is it $69.99 for just the joystick.

the stick is probably 70 dollars on its own. If it came bundled for 70 dollars it's probably a really, really bad stick (you can't even build a cardboard stick for that much). The game costs 60 dollars on its own.

thats stupid, both seperate.. screw that -.-


i think capcom and madcatz are doing something called business...

sucks taht when u buy a new TV a brand new DVD players comes free with it...
Forever Young
Scooter
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States747 Posts
February 23 2009 01:42 GMT
#313
Have you guys read Sirlin's article on detailing his criticisms of Street Fighter IV?

http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2009/2/22/a-few-things-about-street-fighter-4.html

+ Show Spoiler +


Street Fighter 4 is finally here, with several perfect 100/100 reviews. Here's a few things I noticed about the game.

In ranked matches, you can see the opponent's name before the match and kick them or reject the challenge. This allows you to cherry pick who you fight and negates the entire purpose of a ranked match.

In ranked matches (well, all matches) there is no double blind character select. This means the optimum strategy is often to wait until the opponent chooses first so you can counter-pick. This is a very annoying situation.

When lag inevitably happens in an online fighting game, there are different ways to handle it. Some SF4 matches I played had large input delay, maybe as high as 15 frames. This is the time between your button press and seeing the effect happen. Adding input delay is really the worst way to handle lag. GGPO's amazing netcode shows that avoiding input delay and hiding lag in other ways is the way to go. That technology has been readily available for years, so it's disappointing to feel input delay in an online match.

The button config screen is "the wrong way." The right way is for the screen to list functions, then you press the buttons you want to assign. The wrong way is to list buttons, then you scroll through lists of functions to assign. The reason that one way is right and the other way is wrong is pretty clear when you watch people try to configure buttons. I've had to watch what must be thousands of people do this over the years in all the tournaments I've helped run (not to mention local gatherings). When the config screen says "Jab" and requires you to press the button you want, you just press the upper left button on your stick (or whatever button on your gamepad). This is a one-step process. But if the screen lists "X" and then requires you to scroll through functions until you find jab, it requires a two step process. You have to know which button on your controller is labeled "X." When this screen is the right way, no one has to know if the upper left button happens to be X or A or B or whatever else.

If you think this is negligible, you have never seen people set buttons. The wrong way turns what should be a 3 second task into a fairly confusing affair. Yes I know the wrong way allows you to have lots of functions in your list, but this can be done the right way also.

On to gameplay issues. The jumps have strange acceleration to them. While that's subjective, look at Zangief's jump that seems to have the acceleration of a flea. (Incidentally, why does his splash not stay out the whole time in the air?). Also, getting hit out of the air is extremely floaty, which means it takes unusually long to get back to a state where you can actually move again. This "moving in jello" feel is reinforced by many throws that have dead time at the end when it seems like you should be able to move (see Vega's for example).

The size of the stages is extremely large relative to the size of the characters. This helps runaway tactics.

Optimizing for the 1% rather than the 99% case. There's two examples, the first is tech recover (quick get up from a knock down). 99% of the time, I want to get up fast, but this is the action that requires button presses. Why not admit that getting up fast is the intent and make it default, unless the player holds down some buttons to get up slow? That's how it works for Robo-Ky in Guilty Gear, by the way. Incidentally, don't the two kinds of get up timing only lessen the importance of knockdown by allowing you mess up the attacker's timing a bit? Like the decision to have large stages, this seems not to favor offense.

Next is the 2-button throw, a bad idea in fighting games with 2D gameplay. 3D Fighting games are different beasts, so they are excused here, but note that even Dead or Alive offers a macro to turn its 2 button throw into a 1 button throw...and maps that macro to a face button by default. Anyway, 2 button throws solve a non-problem that no one has ever actually had. That's the problem of accidentally throwing and being sad about it. Street Fighter 2, Guilty Gear series, and Street Fighter Alpha 2 all demonstrated that 1 button throws work just fine and don't actually create any problems. Adding a second button press just adds complexity where it's not necessary, and helps nothing. (Edit: it does add a throw whiff which could be a good thing, but simpler is still better...)

Other non-problems we might solve in 2D fighting games would be to make blocking 1 button and jumping 1 button (each are traditionally zero buttons). We certainly could add those button presses, but it would make more sense to reduce the button presses to as few as possible: zero to jump, zero to block, and one to throw.

It's especially unfortunate that Cammy's hooligan throw requires a 2-button throw in the middle to complete it. Why exactly is this necessary, rather than one button?

2 button throws actually introduce the problem of kara-throws, a bug from SF3 that we now have again in SF4. This is when you cancel a forward moving attack a frame or two into it with a throw command in order to greatly extend your throw range. Do the designers want a long throw range or do they not? If they don't kara throws shouldn't be in the game. If they do, then base throw ranges should be extended for all players, not just the ones who input a difficult command.

Another similar bug is the chain combo cancel bug. As an example, consider Sakura. Low short does cancel into special moves. But if you rapid fire the low short (do it 2 or 3 times quickly each one cancels the last) then you CANNOT cancel the last hit into a special. I'm not saying this is a problem at all, necessarily. This restriction is there for good reason: to prevent the game from degenerating into low short -> big damage stuff. It would make more sense to give players a reason to start combos with bigger moves sometimes. Guilty Gear does a great job of this by reducing your entire combo's damage by 20% for each low short. (Hey Guilty Gear players, I know I'm simplifying there.)

Ok so what's the problem, sounds good that you can't do low short, low short, special move, right? But you can do it. If you make the last short a link rather than a chain (do it slowly, but not so slow that it doesn't combo) then you can cancel it into a special move. So really, you can get around this restriction if only you have high dexterity skills. Now, this is also true in ST and SF HD Remix, but that's not so much intent as what we were stuck with. For an entirely new game, I'm surprised to see this still there. I'm even more surprised to see combos that use this in the challenge mode, meaning the developers know about it and accept that low short is really this powerful. SF4 Sakura, for example, can low short, (link), low short, ex shoryken, ultra. She can do a lot more than that, but you get the idea.

This issue of rapid fire moves using a bug to cancel into specials is actually minor compared to the next topic though, a topic that will dominate much of the game: link combos in general. The game is filled with difficult 1-frame links. These are moves that just barely combo into each other with 1/60th of a second timing. In high level play, players will master these and they become common. So Sakura doing low jab, (link), low fierce, short helicopter kick, (link) low short, ex shoryuken, ultra for 50% will be common. One friend of mine already does this combo in real matches after only 2 days of playing, as well as other scarily damaging combos off low short that involve hard links.

Other examples, Ryu can now link low short, low jab, low forward. He can also link low strong, low strong, low roundhouse. Linking is the name of the game, which actually makes the game closer to CvS2 than to 3s or ST. The effect of all these links is to hide the actual game behind an impenetrable wall of execution. If you practice (ie, develop 1p skills unrelated to strategy and unrelated to interaction with the opponent) then you gain access to the real game, a game of high damage off small hits, but only for the dexterous.

Of course some level of this is inherent in just about every fighting game. It's a question of how far to turn the knob towards 1p activities and away from strategy. Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo has dexterity requirements of course, but winning tournaments while using zero or very few link combos is entirely possible. That simply isn't the main focus of the game. The existence of many, many new links in SF4 shifts the focus toward that though.

Next up, we have ultras. All I'll really say here is that in real matches I find myself having to pump qcf x 2 over and over looking for the right moment to do the ultra. When I find that moment, I have to complete the qcf x 2 command with PPP. Let's hope I don't press PP in those moments, because that command gives me a super, which is an entirely different move. I'm not sure what qcf x 2 + PPP is doing in a "casual friendly game" in the first place.

Then there's focus canceling. The idea of paying half your meter to cancel a move is taken from Guilty Gear where it was called roman canceling. It's a wonderful mechanic in Guilty Gear, by the way. The command in that game is press any three buttons--I use PPP. This is actually pretty natural because when using a joystick, your right hand's natural resting position is on those PPP buttons usually. In SF4, the roman cancel command is medium punch + medium kick, then tap forward, forward. This is really awkward and a whole lot of inputs for one decision (the decision to roman cancel). I wish I could map this command to PPP or something, rather than having to do button presses AND double taps. There's many combos involving this that you'll need to be able to do to be competitive, so I'm not sure why this ended up requiring so many extraneous inputs.

When I read about the 100/100 scores, I see again and again how "simple and elegant" the game is. Two super meters, a 3-tier focus attack system, and all the complications above seem to fly in the face of that. Even more though, I hear how "casual friendly" it is. This is deeply mysterious and I'm not sure why this so often claimed. Not every game has to be casual friendly, so it would seem more honest to just explain how casual unfriendly all these things are. Qcf x 2 +PPP all the time, extra button presses to throw, extra button presses to roman cancel, and many, many extremely difficult link combos work in concert to create that impenetrable wall of execution between you and the actual game (the interaction between you and your opponent). I wish we could get rid of all this stuff and focus more on the gameplay itself.

Edit: I forgot to mention two more things. First, the unlocks. I'm very surprised to see basic functionality of the multiplayer game--the characters--locked behind tedious 1p tasks. I had to pay a tax of fighting the computer on easiest for long time just to get the core features of the game. (I did this picture-in-picture while watching episodes of Frasier.) I'm fully aware that casual players love unlocks, and that's why non-essential content like costumes, movies, icons, and titles are all perfectly fine to give as rewards for playing 1p content. But the *characters*? This steps on the toes of those wanting to play the multiplayer game by making our first experience with the game a very boring one. I wanted to hire a MMO gold farmer to do this for me.

And the last thing I should have mentioned here is that despite all these many problems, there is fun to be had in the game...


Sirlin's argument against intentional execution increase (MBS and Automine) have usually irked me, but he outlines some pretty good points, especially on quick-rise. I disagree that link combos are too much though, I think the dexterity requirement for executing huge combos is a good thing, as long as the combo is well designed (sakura 50% combo is bad).
My unblocks gets yo curleh mustache wet のωの
stiga
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States377 Posts
February 23 2009 01:58 GMT
#314
DAN THE MAN!!!

is a terrible player but hes a joke player
junny
Profile Joined October 2007
United States174 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-23 02:09:43
February 23 2009 02:08 GMT
#315
Good games Roman! Sorry about the last match, you air threw me out of my super and I was going to message you "WTF!!!!." But then the game froze in my pm box, lol. Anyway, I gotta stop jumping vertically against Cammy. I just eat a bunch of cannon spikes and kick myself for doing it every time. Also ball apparently loses to spinning kick projectile thing every time. so i can't just start out the match with a horizontal ball.
[X]Ken_D
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
United States4653 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-23 02:33:59
February 23 2009 02:14 GMT
#316
On February 23 2009 08:40 ZoW wrote:
So Tougeki Damashii released a new tier list recently(Arcade only):

+ Show Spoiler +
S +

Sagat, Viper, Akuma, Zangief

S

Ryu, Boxer, Rufus, Blanka

A
Chun li, Dictator, Ken, Dhalsim, Abel, Honda, El Fuerte

B
Claw, Guile




Someone that read Japanese was telling me, it isn't really a tier list. It is stats of characters from tournament results which would makes more sense.
[X]Domain - I just do the website. Nothing more.
[X]Ken_D
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
United States4653 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-23 02:26:38
February 23 2009 02:21 GMT
#317
On February 23 2009 10:42 Scooter wrote:
Have you guys read Sirlin's article on detailing his criticisms of Street Fighter IV?

http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2009/2/22/a-few-things-about-street-fighter-4.html

+ Show Spoiler +


Street Fighter 4 is finally here, with several perfect 100/100 reviews. Here's a few things I noticed about the game.

In ranked matches, you can see the opponent's name before the match and kick them or reject the challenge. This allows you to cherry pick who you fight and negates the entire purpose of a ranked match.

In ranked matches (well, all matches) there is no double blind character select. This means the optimum strategy is often to wait until the opponent chooses first so you can counter-pick. This is a very annoying situation.

When lag inevitably happens in an online fighting game, there are different ways to handle it. Some SF4 matches I played had large input delay, maybe as high as 15 frames. This is the time between your button press and seeing the effect happen. Adding input delay is really the worst way to handle lag. GGPO's amazing netcode shows that avoiding input delay and hiding lag in other ways is the way to go. That technology has been readily available for years, so it's disappointing to feel input delay in an online match.

The button config screen is "the wrong way." The right way is for the screen to list functions, then you press the buttons you want to assign. The wrong way is to list buttons, then you scroll through lists of functions to assign. The reason that one way is right and the other way is wrong is pretty clear when you watch people try to configure buttons. I've had to watch what must be thousands of people do this over the years in all the tournaments I've helped run (not to mention local gatherings). When the config screen says "Jab" and requires you to press the button you want, you just press the upper left button on your stick (or whatever button on your gamepad). This is a one-step process. But if the screen lists "X" and then requires you to scroll through functions until you find jab, it requires a two step process. You have to know which button on your controller is labeled "X." When this screen is the right way, no one has to know if the upper left button happens to be X or A or B or whatever else.

If you think this is negligible, you have never seen people set buttons. The wrong way turns what should be a 3 second task into a fairly confusing affair. Yes I know the wrong way allows you to have lots of functions in your list, but this can be done the right way also.

On to gameplay issues. The jumps have strange acceleration to them. While that's subjective, look at Zangief's jump that seems to have the acceleration of a flea. (Incidentally, why does his splash not stay out the whole time in the air?). Also, getting hit out of the air is extremely floaty, which means it takes unusually long to get back to a state where you can actually move again. This "moving in jello" feel is reinforced by many throws that have dead time at the end when it seems like you should be able to move (see Vega's for example).

The size of the stages is extremely large relative to the size of the characters. This helps runaway tactics.

Optimizing for the 1% rather than the 99% case. There's two examples, the first is tech recover (quick get up from a knock down). 99% of the time, I want to get up fast, but this is the action that requires button presses. Why not admit that getting up fast is the intent and make it default, unless the player holds down some buttons to get up slow? That's how it works for Robo-Ky in Guilty Gear, by the way. Incidentally, don't the two kinds of get up timing only lessen the importance of knockdown by allowing you mess up the attacker's timing a bit? Like the decision to have large stages, this seems not to favor offense.

Next is the 2-button throw, a bad idea in fighting games with 2D gameplay. 3D Fighting games are different beasts, so they are excused here, but note that even Dead or Alive offers a macro to turn its 2 button throw into a 1 button throw...and maps that macro to a face button by default. Anyway, 2 button throws solve a non-problem that no one has ever actually had. That's the problem of accidentally throwing and being sad about it. Street Fighter 2, Guilty Gear series, and Street Fighter Alpha 2 all demonstrated that 1 button throws work just fine and don't actually create any problems. Adding a second button press just adds complexity where it's not necessary, and helps nothing. (Edit: it does add a throw whiff which could be a good thing, but simpler is still better...)

Other non-problems we might solve in 2D fighting games would be to make blocking 1 button and jumping 1 button (each are traditionally zero buttons). We certainly could add those button presses, but it would make more sense to reduce the button presses to as few as possible: zero to jump, zero to block, and one to throw.

It's especially unfortunate that Cammy's hooligan throw requires a 2-button throw in the middle to complete it. Why exactly is this necessary, rather than one button?

2 button throws actually introduce the problem of kara-throws, a bug from SF3 that we now have again in SF4. This is when you cancel a forward moving attack a frame or two into it with a throw command in order to greatly extend your throw range. Do the designers want a long throw range or do they not? If they don't kara throws shouldn't be in the game. If they do, then base throw ranges should be extended for all players, not just the ones who input a difficult command.

Another similar bug is the chain combo cancel bug. As an example, consider Sakura. Low short does cancel into special moves. But if you rapid fire the low short (do it 2 or 3 times quickly each one cancels the last) then you CANNOT cancel the last hit into a special. I'm not saying this is a problem at all, necessarily. This restriction is there for good reason: to prevent the game from degenerating into low short -> big damage stuff. It would make more sense to give players a reason to start combos with bigger moves sometimes. Guilty Gear does a great job of this by reducing your entire combo's damage by 20% for each low short. (Hey Guilty Gear players, I know I'm simplifying there.)

Ok so what's the problem, sounds good that you can't do low short, low short, special move, right? But you can do it. If you make the last short a link rather than a chain (do it slowly, but not so slow that it doesn't combo) then you can cancel it into a special move. So really, you can get around this restriction if only you have high dexterity skills. Now, this is also true in ST and SF HD Remix, but that's not so much intent as what we were stuck with. For an entirely new game, I'm surprised to see this still there. I'm even more surprised to see combos that use this in the challenge mode, meaning the developers know about it and accept that low short is really this powerful. SF4 Sakura, for example, can low short, (link), low short, ex shoryken, ultra. She can do a lot more than that, but you get the idea.

This issue of rapid fire moves using a bug to cancel into specials is actually minor compared to the next topic though, a topic that will dominate much of the game: link combos in general. The game is filled with difficult 1-frame links. These are moves that just barely combo into each other with 1/60th of a second timing. In high level play, players will master these and they become common. So Sakura doing low jab, (link), low fierce, short helicopter kick, (link) low short, ex shoryuken, ultra for 50% will be common. One friend of mine already does this combo in real matches after only 2 days of playing, as well as other scarily damaging combos off low short that involve hard links.

Other examples, Ryu can now link low short, low jab, low forward. He can also link low strong, low strong, low roundhouse. Linking is the name of the game, which actually makes the game closer to CvS2 than to 3s or ST. The effect of all these links is to hide the actual game behind an impenetrable wall of execution. If you practice (ie, develop 1p skills unrelated to strategy and unrelated to interaction with the opponent) then you gain access to the real game, a game of high damage off small hits, but only for the dexterous.

Of course some level of this is inherent in just about every fighting game. It's a question of how far to turn the knob towards 1p activities and away from strategy. Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo has dexterity requirements of course, but winning tournaments while using zero or very few link combos is entirely possible. That simply isn't the main focus of the game. The existence of many, many new links in SF4 shifts the focus toward that though.

Next up, we have ultras. All I'll really say here is that in real matches I find myself having to pump qcf x 2 over and over looking for the right moment to do the ultra. When I find that moment, I have to complete the qcf x 2 command with PPP. Let's hope I don't press PP in those moments, because that command gives me a super, which is an entirely different move. I'm not sure what qcf x 2 + PPP is doing in a "casual friendly game" in the first place.

Then there's focus canceling. The idea of paying half your meter to cancel a move is taken from Guilty Gear where it was called roman canceling. It's a wonderful mechanic in Guilty Gear, by the way. The command in that game is press any three buttons--I use PPP. This is actually pretty natural because when using a joystick, your right hand's natural resting position is on those PPP buttons usually. In SF4, the roman cancel command is medium punch + medium kick, then tap forward, forward. This is really awkward and a whole lot of inputs for one decision (the decision to roman cancel). I wish I could map this command to PPP or something, rather than having to do button presses AND double taps. There's many combos involving this that you'll need to be able to do to be competitive, so I'm not sure why this ended up requiring so many extraneous inputs.

When I read about the 100/100 scores, I see again and again how "simple and elegant" the game is. Two super meters, a 3-tier focus attack system, and all the complications above seem to fly in the face of that. Even more though, I hear how "casual friendly" it is. This is deeply mysterious and I'm not sure why this so often claimed. Not every game has to be casual friendly, so it would seem more honest to just explain how casual unfriendly all these things are. Qcf x 2 +PPP all the time, extra button presses to throw, extra button presses to roman cancel, and many, many extremely difficult link combos work in concert to create that impenetrable wall of execution between you and the actual game (the interaction between you and your opponent). I wish we could get rid of all this stuff and focus more on the gameplay itself.

Edit: I forgot to mention two more things. First, the unlocks. I'm very surprised to see basic functionality of the multiplayer game--the characters--locked behind tedious 1p tasks. I had to pay a tax of fighting the computer on easiest for long time just to get the core features of the game. (I did this picture-in-picture while watching episodes of Frasier.) I'm fully aware that casual players love unlocks, and that's why non-essential content like costumes, movies, icons, and titles are all perfectly fine to give as rewards for playing 1p content. But the *characters*? This steps on the toes of those wanting to play the multiplayer game by making our first experience with the game a very boring one. I wanted to hire a MMO gold farmer to do this for me.

And the last thing I should have mentioned here is that despite all these many problems, there is fun to be had in the game...


Sirlin's argument against intentional execution increase (MBS and Automine) have usually irked me, but he outlines some pretty good points, especially on quick-rise. I disagree that link combos are too much though, I think the dexterity requirement for executing huge combos is a good thing, as long as the combo is well designed (sakura 50% combo is bad).


That was a good read. I miss the old way of assigning buttons. SFHD online for competition features is way better than SF4. Japan seems so behind in online . I strongly disagree with his statement about 2 button throws. On console, people can remap 2 button throws to 1 button like I do. IMO 2 button throws should be normal for all SF games, yes even his own game SFHD.
[X]Domain - I just do the website. Nothing more.
MCMcEmcee
Profile Joined April 2008
United States1609 Posts
February 23 2009 02:25 GMT
#318
shrug Sirlin saying standard Sirlin stuff, I like how that entire list of crap has the subtext "but it's not like that in the game I singlehandedly rebalanced with my infinite game design genius, WHO ELSE IN THE INDUSTRY HAS DONE AS MUCH"

Stuff like "omg two button throwz?" just makes no sense to me. There are plenty of other 2D fighters with 2 button throws and they are just fine. I fail to see how that makes the game worse or less friendly to new players. It's like, how is that "complex" when it's just... pushing 2 buttons at the same time. It's not like you aren't doing two separate inputs to do throws in SF2.

But whatever, if anybody who is important in the game industry thought Sirlin said enough valid points in between all the BS he spouts, he'd have had a hand in more than bad arcade-emulator console ports and a "rebalanced" ST that is a pretty sorry product anyhow. Dude couldn't even properly port ST to console with a team and all of a sudden he thinks he's hot stuff for... porting ST to console with bad graphics and questionable changes?
[iHs]MCMcEmcee@UFO | のヮの
anotak
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1537 Posts
February 23 2009 03:05 GMT
#319
On February 23 2009 11:25 MCMcEmcee wrote:
shrug Sirlin saying standard Sirlin stuff, I like how that entire list of crap has the subtext "but it's not like that in the game I singlehandedly rebalanced with my infinite game design genius, WHO ELSE IN THE INDUSTRY HAS DONE AS MUCH"

Stuff like "omg two button throwz?" just makes no sense to me. There are plenty of other 2D fighters with 2 button throws and they are just fine. I fail to see how that makes the game worse or less friendly to new players. It's like, how is that "complex" when it's just... pushing 2 buttons at the same time. It's not like you aren't doing two separate inputs to do throws in SF2.

But whatever, if anybody who is important in the game industry thought Sirlin said enough valid points in between all the BS he spouts, he'd have had a hand in more than bad arcade-emulator console ports and a "rebalanced" ST that is a pretty sorry product anyhow. Dude couldn't even properly port ST to console with a team and all of a sudden he thinks he's hot stuff for... porting ST to console with bad graphics and questionable changes?

hey man dont diss Udon's graphics.

But yeah keep dissing sirlin. I hate this talk that mechanics are "cheap". I see it on nearly every competitive gaming site (much less on teamliquid, not sure if that's odd or not). Mechanics are a valid part of competitive play and REALLY SHOULD BE.

And then he talks about how he went to Evo with no practice. Is it a coincidence that the man who is far too lazy to practice wants games to be about some bullshit vision of "strategy" as opposed to mechanics.
iloveroo
Profile Joined February 2009
Canada294 Posts
February 23 2009 04:04 GMT
#320
On February 23 2009 10:15 sung_moon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2009 09:57 iloveroo wrote:
On February 23 2009 09:56 Scooter wrote:
On February 23 2009 09:45 iloveroo wrote:
SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER QUICKLY PLEASE
I HAVE PS3 and i wasn't gonna get the joystick, cause i thought it would cost much more but then i don't know the price of it

so i was wondering, i heard that the game comes with the joystick, that cost $69.99.. am i correct? that if you decide to get the game w/ the joystick it will cost $69.99, or is it $69.99 for just the joystick.

the stick is probably 70 dollars on its own. If it came bundled for 70 dollars it's probably a really, really bad stick (you can't even build a cardboard stick for that much). The game costs 60 dollars on its own.

thats stupid, both seperate.. screw that -.-


i think capcom and madcatz are doing something called business...

sucks taht when u buy a new TV a brand new DVD players comes free with it...

lawl, who the fuck cares if they're doing business make the costumers happy ;o
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