EPT"Not gonna get you a fancy car~"
The Official Street Fighter 4 Thread - Page 18
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SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
"Not gonna get you a fancy car~" | ||
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Fishball
Canada4788 Posts
Holy shit, I'm about to throw my controller; Some combos are so damn hard to perform with the controller. I need a good arcade stick. Any recommendations? Are the ones sold in EB Games good enough? | ||
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iloveroo
Canada294 Posts
On February 23 2009 13:31 MCMcEmcee wrote: you're complaining about spending extra money on a stick when EVERYBODY who plays fighting games and wants a stick has already spent ~$100+ on a stick back in like the PS2 era? If you want a stick, save some money and buy one, don't whine that you have to buy it separately. lol? im not whining, i was just bitching about it lawl | ||
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SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
On February 24 2009 04:51 Fishball wrote: Didn't have much time to play yet, and I've only played a few offline games, and now playing in challenge mode to learn the "basics". Holy shit, I'm about to throw my controller; Some combos are so damn hard to perform with the controller. I need a good arcade stick. Any recommendations? Are the ones sold in EB Games good enough? If you are learning, yeah the Madcatz SE is cool cause its just 60bux I assume you are PS3? Another alternative is the HRAP3 but it's a bit more expensive. and the MC TE lol And both are easily moddable to REAL PARTS if you decide to get even more seriouz @iloveroo: same shit? | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12249 Posts
On February 24 2009 01:16 freelander wrote: what? I don't get this sentence every 2D fighter the throw input is the same as the throw escape input He was comparing to SF2's forward+P or forward+K producing a throw, but those were inescapable. So, if SF4 had the same throw system as SF2, what would the escape be assuming they wanted to add one? Forward+P or Forward+K? That would make them too easy to escape by accident. Two-button throws and escapes requires a conscious effort. | ||
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SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12249 Posts
On February 24 2009 02:16 Trumpet wrote: I don't know what version of 3rd Strike you played, but the one everyone else did had almost no links whatsoever, and definitely no hard, exact button presses unless you're trying to SGGK, kara shoryukens, or something else that even SBO level players screw up. People who've never played fighting games before can do 3rd Strike combos, so I really don't get where you're coming from on that one. (Speaking from experience here. Taught someone how to do Chun's cr. mk to super in their first 5 minutes of touching any fighter ever.) In your example combo, you're doing some unnecessarily long poke string (which also requires that you start pretty much on top of them) then are doing the full old DP motion (has been shorted to df, df to make things easier) then hitting pp for the DP, and I have no idea which character needs to EX that uppercut to combo into ultra, none that I know of, canceling it with a focus dash and doing an ultra. For a combo supposed to point out how hard stuff is, you could learn this in a minimal amount of time. Especially if you cut out the extra shitty jabs etc that only cut down damage and mess with spacing, and the EX uppercut that's there to burn meter and make the combo sound more complex than it is. I'm assuming this is supposed to be like a Ryu ultra combo made annoyingly harder for argument's sake, but that's the beauty of this kind of combo system, you have a ton of choices for how you want to combo. That same combo can be done cr. lp, cr. fp, df, d, df (extremely easy motion), punch of your choice (I use mp so I never accidentally EX, since this combo system lets me get away with that), mp+mk, f, f, 2xqcf+PPP. The cr. fp could also be a cr. mk, a cr. mp, a second cr. lp, etc. How easy do you want combos to be? About the ps2 things, seriously, my roommate does uppercut fadc ultra combos all day with hardly any trouble, only one I've seen him have trouble with is the guile ultra. R1 = HP, R2 = HK, L1 = PPP, L2 = KKK. I 100% guarantee that if you can't do it on a playstation controller, you couldn't do it on stick. Only exception to that is kara cancels (which you can work around in 3s by binding an L button to whatever you want to kara with). It's different, but not that bad. If you're really having trouble doing combos consistently since it's so new / different, pick a character that can do bnb combos easier. Abel, for instance, can ultra off his cr. hp, doesn't get much easier than that. Sagat has that lovely forward + hk after FADCs that gives you all the time in the world to do your inputs. The hardest thing Dhalsim ever requires of you is a tiger knee'd teleport. His challenge mode hard combos are three hits -_- Compared to a game like StarCraft, execution in SF4 is pretty lenient. The fact that you can't combo like top Japanese players on your first 3 days of SF4 doesn't make it hard, it makes it your first 3 days of SF4. From a forum of people who train their hands to dance around a keyboard at 200+ APM, I did not expect this  http://forums.shoryuken.com ! The top forum on that site is dedicated 100% to SF4 :> Re: SF3 combo system, I was mainly referring to the incredibly long strings of moves. Even though their damage was marginally better than easier alternatives, they were still staples of high level play and something for me to aspire to. Ricky Ortiz used to be my coworker, and one day he reluctantly agreed to play some of us in 3S, so in one match he used Yun and did one of those ridiculous 15-hit juggles. So I'm seeing his hands flip and fly and zoom all around the stick, and it's just baffling to me how that has to become ingrained in a person's muscle memory over a presumably long period of time for some characters to really become dangerous. I'm coming from the point of view of someone who played SF pretty casually. Again to refer back to 3S, I'd do something like Ken jumping HK, cr.mk, qcfqcf+K, or st.mp, st.hp, lp.srk, some decent parry strings, and LP SRK~LP SRK kara cancel at like 25% success rate. Completely average across the board and totally wannabe-high-level status. That's something I hope to improve for SF4, and it's a bit daunting to know that I'm going to have to invest considerable time in it to compete. The main problem I'm running into is button layout. It's more difficult for me to do qcf qcf PPP (L1 button) on a controller than qcf qcf PPP on a stick. It's more difficult for me to hit MP+MK on a controller than a stick. This means that I almost never do any focus attacks at all and I'm sure that's hindering my growth by quite a bit. It's more difficult for me to do a SPD on a controller than a stick. Basically stick wins out in every scenario. I'll probably just buy someone's Tekken 5 stick and use that. I have some pretty high APM in Starcraft but I find that it doesn't necessarily translate well to SF. It's possible that it just takes practice and I'm a little impatient, like you were saying, but I found it easier to get high APM quickly in Starcraft than precision timing in SF. | ||
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Fishball
Canada4788 Posts
On February 24 2009 05:19 SayaSP wrote: If you are learning, yeah the Madcatz SE is cool cause its just 60bux I assume you are PS3? Another alternative is the HRAP3 but it's a bit more expensive. and the MC TE lol And both are easily moddable to REAL PARTS if you decide to get even more seriouz @iloveroo: same shit? Haha, I have no idea what these brands are. So I do assume they are available in EB Games Store? Also, I thought arcade sticks were around 35-40 bucks, but the ones you recommended are 60 and up. The cheaper ones suck? If so, how bad? I don't really need to mod anything, I just want to be able to play the game and make moves "I want to make" with relatively ease. | ||
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SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
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Ginseng
United States268 Posts
You shouldn't really be complaining about the pricing of sticks like the others said, since in order to really be satisfied with your stick, you gotta be prepared to spend money. If you gimp out on quality, you're gonna be throwing fits all the time. | ||
Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On February 24 2009 05:23 Excalibur_Z wrote: He was comparing to SF2's forward+P or forward+K producing a throw, but those were inescapable. So, if SF4 had the same throw system as SF2, what would the escape be assuming they wanted to add one? Forward+P or Forward+K? That would make them too easy to escape by accident. Two-button throws and escapes requires a conscious effort. Dude... reading your posts here is like reading the SC2 forum.  First of all, you shouldn't be talking about a game that came out in the 80s and using that as an example of why 1-button throws are bad, when there are lots of more recent games that have 1-button throws and allow you to break them using the exact same input. Even SF2:ST allows you to "throw break", except that it only reduces the damage. Second, the throw command in SF2 and other 1-button-throw games always requires you to use the strongest attack buttons, e.g. heavy punch and heavy kick. Almost no one is going to throw break "by accident" because those moves are almost always the slowest ones: they'll get beaten by quicker moves at close range so almost no one (experienced) will be mashing them at that range. Third, even with 2 button throws you can throw break without attempting a throw. E.g. in SF3:3s and in SF4, you simply crouch and press throw. This gives you an attack instead of a throw, but it will also break throws. | ||
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
On February 24 2009 07:26 Ginseng wrote: Horis are terrible, and Madcatz sticks are probably sold out and back ordered at all store locations at the moment. Mine is back-ordered until Mid-March supposedly :/ so I'm playing on my baddy Hori with an inpin converter. Depends on which Hori you get- HRAPs have at least a Sanwa JLF stick in 'em which makes 'em better than the crappy $60 Horis. | ||
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On February 23 2009 23:02 freelander wrote: 2 button throw is worse imo instead of doing a slow ass move because you fucked up, you just do a fast whiff animation What? Example: in 3s a number of characters have close hp and hk moves that both come out fast and are safe on block. Example: in 3s the throw whiff is 21 frames, still plenty of time to get punished. It only looks fast because the animation usually looks like the guy is just standing there idle: in reality they cannot block. (Which is imo a bad thing: it should be obvious when the character is recovering from a whiffed throw and when that recovery ends, but that's a failure of graphics, not of 2-button throws.) Moreover, if you think the animation is too fast, then isn't that a problem with the animation and not a problem with 2-button throws? Personally, I dislike the whole concept of a button changing its purpose depending on how close or far away you are from your opponent. Not only can it be very irritating at times, it also goes against the principle of giving the player precise control over their character. I should be the one telling the game that I want to throw, or that I want to do far-mp and not close-mp (because only the former links into Ken's SA3 in 3s): instead, the game is telling me what I am doing. | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12249 Posts
On February 24 2009 07:45 Bill307 wrote: Dude... reading your posts here is like reading the SC2 forum. First of all, you shouldn't be talking about a game that came out in the 80s and using that as an example of why 1-button throws are bad, when there are lots of more recent games that have 1-button throws and allow you to break them using the exact same input. Even SF2:ST allows you to "throw break", except that it only reduces the damage. Second, the throw command in SF2 and other 1-button-throw games always requires you to use the strongest attack buttons, e.g. heavy punch and heavy kick. Almost no one is going to throw break "by accident" because those moves are almost always the slowest ones: they'll get beaten by quicker moves at close range so almost no one (experienced) will be mashing them at that range. Third, even with 2 button throws you can throw break without attempting a throw. E.g. in SF3:3s and in SF4, you simply crouch and press throw. This gives you an attack instead of a throw, but it will also break throws. I was hoping this thread would be a little more accommodating of newcomers =] After all this is an SC site with a high level of understanding of SC, so newb nonsense in an SC thread here shouldn't really be tolerated. I'd expect some level of elitism if I were posting on SRK about fighting games, but not here. I'm pretty newb at SF though (apparently), I'm one of those guys who opens with fierce/roundhouse and relegates use of weaker buttons to combos. I also don't play fighting games outside of SF and Soulcalibur :O Sorry if I'm shitting up the thread but this is just one casual's perspective. | ||
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zizou21
United States3683 Posts
OK say you are fighting a shoto, namely Ken the faggot. Now, suppose this shoto were to JUMP kick you -->But you block it! Now, he tries to crouch kick you. The only way to block this low kick is to CROUCH block, correct? If you crouched block in anticipation of his crouch kick, and he instead neutral heavy kicks you in the dome, you need to be neutral blocking (as opposed to crouch blocking) to block this standing heavy kick, RIGHT? Hopefully this is all correct so far but to be honest I'm sure it is not. my question is: Does it boil down to a 50% chance to know whether to crouch/standing block his (next) kick? | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
On February 24 2009 07:45 Bill307 wrote: Dude... reading your posts here is like reading the SC2 forum. First of all, you shouldn't be talking about a game that came out in the 80s and using that as an example of why 1-button throws are bad, when there are lots of more recent games that have 1-button throws and allow you to break them using the exact same input. Even SF2:ST allows you to "throw break", except that it only reduces the damage. Second, the throw command in SF2 and other 1-button-throw games always requires you to use the strongest attack buttons, e.g. heavy punch and heavy kick. Almost no one is going to throw break "by accident" because those moves are almost always the slowest ones: they'll get beaten by quicker moves at close range so almost no one (experienced) will be mashing them at that range. Third, even with 2 button throws you can throw break without attempting a throw. E.g. in SF3:3s and in SF4, you simply crouch and press throw. This gives you an attack instead of a throw, but it will also break throws. Technically it's true SF2 has no throw break. It's only Super Turbo (and Sirlin Turbo) with throw breaks, not even SSF2. And lots of the world still plays Championship Edition--on 2DF more games of CE have been played than ST--, and Hyper Fighting isn't dead either, so you can't equate SF2 to ST. Also, it's character-dependent what buttons are throws, and many characters have throws on MP and MK. You can throw break with all buttons but LP and LK even if your character doesn't throws on those buttons. A common tactic in certain situations in lower-mid levels of play is to walk forward with Chun and mash MP because her s.mp and cl.mp are godly pokes that also have good frame advantage (she can link s.mp into s.mp lol) and her MP throw does about 1/4 life unteched. So it's free option select poke/throw/tech throw. | ||
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
On February 24 2009 08:08 zizou21 wrote: Hey I know this is a probably the most nubbish question you've ever heard being asked. Not to mention it probably suffers from all kind of defects OK say you are fighting a shoto, namely Ken the faggot. Now, suppose this shoto were to JUMP kick you -->But you block it! Now, he tries to crouch kick you. The only way to block this low kick is to CROUCH block, correct? If you crouched block in anticipation of his crouch kick, and he instead neutral heavy kicks you in the dome, you need to be neutral blocking (as opposed to crouch blocking) to block this standing heavy kick, RIGHT? Hopefully this is all correct so far but to be honest I'm sure it is not. my question is: Does it boil down to a 50% chance to know whether to crouch/standing block his (next) kick? No, you don't. You can low block mid hitting moves, you only need to block high for moves that hit high (jumping normals and a small selection of grounded overheads). Another way to look at it- there are three hit levels in SF. Low - must block low (crouch block) High - must block high (stand block) Mid - block either way | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
On February 24 2009 08:08 zizou21 wrote: Hey I know this is a probably the most nubbish question you've ever heard being asked. Not to mention it probably suffers from all kind of defects OK say you are fighting a shoto, namely Ken the faggot. Now, suppose this shoto were to JUMP kick you -->But you block it! Now, he tries to crouch kick you. The only way to block this low kick is to CROUCH block, correct? If you crouched block in anticipation of his crouch kick, and he instead neutral heavy kicks you in the dome, you need to be neutral blocking (as opposed to crouch blocking) to block this standing heavy kick, RIGHT? Hopefully this is all correct so far but to be honest I'm sure it is not. my question is: Does it boil down to a 50% chance to know whether to crouch/standing block his (next) kick? Normal ground attacks (not low sweeps) you can block crouching or standing. However, Ken and some other characters do have special ground attacks that must be blocked high (called overheads). You're right that in this situation generally you need to guess which way to block. There are many such 50/50 situations in fighting games, so your goal is to avoid getting into the receiving end of them. Actually, it's not really 50/50 as the opponent can try to throw you or do something else too, but you get the point. That said, ground attacks that are overheads typically come out fairly slowly, so if you're looking out for it you can usually block it correctly (offline). In your situation, start blocking low and switch to high blocking if you see the overhead start to come down. Actually, in many situations with blocking overheads, you can hit the enemy out of it before it hits you--for example, use a dragon punch-type move that starts quickly. | ||
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On February 24 2009 08:02 Excalibur_Z wrote:I was hoping this thread would be a little more accommodating of newcomers =] After all this is an SC site with a high level of understanding of SC, so newb nonsense in an SC thread here shouldn't really be tolerated. I'd expect some level of elitism if I were posting on SRK about fighting games, but not here. I'm pretty newb at SF though (apparently), I'm one of those guys who opens with fierce/roundhouse and relegates use of weaker buttons to combos. I also don't play fighting games outside of SF and Soulcalibur :O Sorry if I'm shitting up the thread but this is just one casual's perspective. Usually when I talk to casual players, they ask if their impressions are true rather than asserting them as true, e.g. "Wouldn't 1-button throws make it easy to throw break accidentally?" You, on the other hand, state all of your impressions as fact. Given that this is a site with a high level understanding of SC, with the newb nonsense that comes with it, I'd expect you to know the difference between these two approaches and how they are received by others.  | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
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