On July 12 2023 07:50 Latham wrote: Why so many of us quit around level 80... not only is the content mindbogglingly repetitive, but also we hit the gear wall, which is explained here:
I don't think Diablo was ever a franchise where you would spend countless hours on a single character. While I do agree with some of the points they're making (no longer dropping low tier gear when you're high level) I also think that gear drops should depend on both the player level and monster level (kinda hard to do with level scaling but still). I also don't think there should be endless grind involved. I'm perfectly fine with playing 2-3 weeks when a new season starts and then dropping the game until next season comes along.
If they start introducing endless gear grind, dailies, weeklies etc. it then stops being a game and instead becomes a chore. In Lost Ark it was kinda atrocious (gotta do this stuff twice a day/week on every character or you'll fall behind too much).
There are other games to play and activities to enjoy, I don't think every game should somehow turn into another full time job and I'm actually glad right now D4 isn't designed around people who sink 10+ hours/day into it.
On July 12 2023 07:50 Latham wrote: Why so many of us quit around level 80... not only is the content mindbogglingly repetitive, but also we hit the gear wall, which is explained here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2tn1OZSnZA
I don't think Diablo was ever a franchise where you would spend countless hours on a single character. While I do agree with some of the points they're making (no longer dropping low tier gear when you're high level) I also think that gear drops should depend on both the player level and monster level (kinda hard to do with level scaling but still). I also don't think there should be endless grind involved. I'm perfectly fine with playing 2-3 weeks when a new season starts and then dropping the game until next season comes along.
If they start introducing endless gear grind, dailies, weeklies etc. it then stops being a game and instead becomes a chore. In Lost Ark it was kinda atrocious (gotta do this stuff twice a day/week on every character or you'll fall behind too much).
There are other games to play and activities to enjoy, I don't think every game should somehow turn into another full time job and I'm actually glad right now D4 isn't designed around people who sink 10+ hours/day into it.
curiously enough is exactly what you write there what i enjoyed in D3s seasons.
pick a char and build, assemble it, push keys until i reached my goal or it felt too annoying, if i really want to ill start a new char and repeat but at latest after 2-3 weeks i didnt touch the game until the next season
sadly due to the rather tedious lvling process i am not exactly sure if i even play season 1, but to be fair after the ~15 seasons i played in D3 i start to get annoyed by seasons in general, i really hope a more innovative ARPG comes around the corner sometime soon with a fresh idea, cause the "industry standard" of starting over every couple months has really become quite stale for me
On July 12 2023 07:50 Latham wrote: Why so many of us quit around level 80... not only is the content mindbogglingly repetitive, but also we hit the gear wall, which is explained here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2tn1OZSnZA
I don't think Diablo was ever a franchise where you would spend countless hours on a single character. While I do agree with some of the points they're making (no longer dropping low tier gear when you're high level) I also think that gear drops should depend on both the player level and monster level (kinda hard to do with level scaling but still). I also don't think there should be endless grind involved. I'm perfectly fine with playing 2-3 weeks when a new season starts and then dropping the game until next season comes along.
If they start introducing endless gear grind, dailies, weeklies etc. it then stops being a game and instead becomes a chore. In Lost Ark it was kinda atrocious (gotta do this stuff twice a day/week on every character or you'll fall behind too much).
There are other games to play and activities to enjoy, I don't think every game should somehow turn into another full time job and I'm actually glad right now D4 isn't designed around people who sink 10+ hours/day into it.
I do agree some of his ideas in the video need to be refined. If the loot drops according to the player's level, its a participation award. Better for it to scale with enemy level so its actually a reward for doing some of the hardest content in the game. The points about shitty gear (white, blue, sacred) STILL dropping past level 90 when you're exclusively looking for ancestral, uniques & legendaries is annoying, but I think that's a problem caused by no in-built loot filter. Last Epoch has a GREAT in-game, built-in customizable loot filter. With one flick of the wrist you check a box and all whites/blues disappear immediately reducing visual clutter. In PoE trash still drops past 86 (soft cap for gear), but it doesn't clutter the screen and you don't even know its there since you don't see it. Another point is scaling all the way up to 100 might be too much, but as it currently stands, getting GG-endgame gear at level 58ish is a bit too early for my liking. They definitely need to add another AFFIX TIER that is on items past level 75 all the way up to 84/85/86 where the curve should flatline. PoE has 9 tiers of basic affixes for their items (here: mana shield) iLvl 3: 11-28 (Protective) iLvl 18: 27-42 (Strong-Willed) iLvl 20: 38-55 (Haku lvl 2) iLvl 30: 43-55 (Resolute) iLvl 30: 56-74 (Haku lvl 4) iLvl 44: 56-67 (Fearless) iLvl 60: 68-79 (Dauntless) iLvl 72: 80-91 (Indomitable) iLvl 84: 92-100 (Unassailable)
while Diablo 4 has only 6: 1 1 - 149 item power 2 150 - 339 item power 3 340 - 459 item power 4 460 - 624 item power 5 625 - 724 item power 6 725 and above item power
Or either like the guy in the video said, modify either the roll floor or the roll ceiling for items. if an item can roll anywhere between [10% - 25% Critical Damage] in the last item power tier, make the level 70 items roll [10%-25%] but the level 95 item roll [20%-25%].
I don't want to see dailies/weeklies either. Also maybe respect my time and don't make me regrind Renown every season? I don't mind the strongholds because they're pretty unique and so rare, but the amount of shitty little side quests that reward you with only 20 renown while providing you with essentially no world-building is atrocious. They definitely went for quantity over quality here. There were a handful of side-quests I really enjoyed exploring like where Lilith's summoning took place, what happened to Diablo 2's Paladin that we played, a nod towards Diablo 3's Crusader (Johanna) but these were so far and few between like shining pearls, swimming in a sea of mire made up of useless fetch or kill quests that didn't build the world at all...
I'm with you guys. If Diablo 4 keeps my interest over the long run, I think I'm going to play 1-2 seasons per year. I want to binge for 1-2 weeks then play sporadically after I hit the wall where gear doesn't upgrade as often. I don't want dailies, weeklies and other stuff like that. I like that interview where they said they were aiming for season content to be in the 80-100 range to complete.
On the topic of gear filtering, I still pick up all rares to vendor. Enchanting gets expensive and it's a big gold sink in the endgame. I do hope they can give us fewer, but better loot drops. There are way too many affixes currently in the game. D2 and D3 went different ways in their itemization but both were easier on the loot sorting department. Almost all other ARPGs I've played (Hades is an exception), loot sorting was a total chore. It's a pace killer in D4.
Which quest was the one about the D2 Paladin? I remember Johanna and the Lilith summoning quests but I don't quite remember that one.
PoE has shown you don't need to keep people engaged 24/7 for weeks/months. You just need to get them back for play a bit every new season and buy whatever new cosmetic pack is out.
On July 14 2023 01:35 Latham wrote: Another point is scaling all the way up to 100 might be too much, but as it currently stands, getting GG-endgame gear at level 58ish is a bit too early for my liking.
I have to agree with Asmongold here that seeing higher tier gear at lower levels isn't necessarily bad (unless it becomes common). It's nice to have some "Oh wow!" moments when you get something real nice for yourself on occasion. Just make it so it's pretty much impossible to deck yourself out in full BIS gear at level 60.
So maybe like the "power level bubble" explained in the video but with 0.1% chance of dropping something from one cell beyond the bubble.
On July 14 2023 03:26 andrewlt wrote: There are way too many affixes currently in the game. D2 and D3 went different ways in their itemization but both were easier on the loot sorting department.
I do agree with this. Damage to close, distant, vulnerable, crowd controlled, stunned, immobilized, slowed, chilled, frozen, burning, whatever enemies etc. It's just way too specific which gives you a ton of affixes and thus reduced chance of getting the affixes you want and more stuff to sift through.
It also creates those weird scenarios you need to create to reach your max potential, where on the fifth hit of specific skill you will obliterate enemies that have been previously oiled up while you're standing in a pool of holy water on a moonless night in a cave at the bottom of the lake. No one really needs that. ARPGs should be simple fun that don't require a lot of mental gymnastics and overlong setups. Sure, maybe if you want to push some world records and be at the top 1% or something but not for 99% of players. Like the necro blood orb bone spirit build used for Uber Lilith where you one-shot her but need to be casting blood wave for 53 minutes before you start the fight.
The game is so dark. I died again. The bosses become impenetrable as the scaling factor doesn't allow for simple solo play. I think the number 4 is stigmatized in the Diablo community, but it's not like this is Diablo 666.
On July 14 2023 01:35 Latham wrote: Another point is scaling all the way up to 100 might be too much, but as it currently stands, getting GG-endgame gear at level 58ish is a bit too early for my liking.
I have to agree with Asmongold here that seeing higher tier gear at lower levels isn't necessarily bad (unless it becomes common). It's nice to have some "Oh wow!" moments when you get something real nice for yourself on occasion. Just make it so it's pretty much impossible to deck yourself out in full BIS gear at level 60.
I think whats nice and amazing is being able to find items / build defining items at a certain level or meaningful items that you can use even in lategame due to something they offer. If the chance of finding really great gear at 60 ( in terms of rares) is there and increases with higher level content I wouldnt mind that either but right now you are basically looking for min/maxing when not even in endgame content which feels very poor.
I didnt find a weapon upgrade in like 35 levels (65 to 100) which is just a sad feeling
I cancelled my preorder after the beta then I got wasted and my sub got the best of me so I brought it again at retail and have been playing on and off. Still to this day have not beaten it. I know I'm going to put a little more extra game into it before I hang it up and won't have any regrets. I was a hardcore D2 player playing FT
On July 16 2023 06:24 Bub wrote: I cancelled my preorder after the beta then I got wasted and my sub got the best of me so I brought it again at retail and have been playing on and off. Still to this day have not beaten it. I know I'm going to put a little more extra game into it before I hang it up and won't have any regrets. I was a hardcore D2 player playing FT
What do you mean by "beaten it" ? Finish campaign? Reached WT4? Killed Uber Lilith? Reach lvl 100?
I really need to finish the campaign today but it's such a chore... It's pretty boring, running back and forth between zones I've already been in feels like I'm just running in circles doing stupid errands instead of progressing. The whole structure of it is rather weak, the fact that you can do the first 3 acts in any order robs it of any sense of urgency. "If you don't do this we're all doomed! But it's OK to go on a lengthy journey somewhere else first."
The characters are irritating and even the villains leave much to desire. I'm not really thrilled by the prospect of defeating Elias for the 5th time or however many it'll be now...
Imo it's pretty good once you get out of the desert. But I agree that the open world and level scaling isn't really doing it any favors, it just made me feel a bit lost and made progression less noticeable.
Which is a shame, because imo it does a lot of things right. I pretty much liked all the side quest stories I've played so far, I think the main quest story is pretty decent and I somewhat cared about Donan and even Lorath. To some extend I could even understand Elias and Lilith makes some half-decent points later on. I think the quest design mostly makes sense.
But overall you either ride from point to point and largely ignore mobs on the way or it feels like you're on the road forever, which is very unsatisfactory. And the party is mostly too distracted by their own problems and vendettas to really get the ball rolling at first and while that's somewhat by design (to show how weak and easily broken humans are) it also weakens the progression in the first 2/3rds of the campaign.
I think what I find kinda discouraging is that after all this traveling (I'm over halfway in Act V now, at the Tree of Whispers) you end up pretty much right next to the area where you start the game.
It maybe wouldn't be this bad if the campaign was actually a bit more on-rails experience. They should move away from the open world concept in the beginning, just open up a few key areas as you progress through the campaign and then whole world opening up once you've completed the campaign (altars of lilith and sidequests should also only really appear once you've completed the campaign). Sure, it probably wouldn't feel so grand and all but I think it might be way more enjoyable if it were a bit more contained in the beginning with more options opening up at the end (that includes dungeons, cellars and such).
I felt like Acts 1-2-3 were good. Act 4 was completely unnecessary. Act 5 felt like a huge slog. I was constantly groaning and going "are we there yet?" in my mind.
I could not bond with Dolan or the teenager chick at all. Both felt extremely annoying. Lorath was an edgy Deckard, but I'll take him over that obnoxious child and self-doubting baggage of a Horadrim any day of the week.
On July 14 2023 01:35 Latham wrote: Another point is scaling all the way up to 100 might be too much, but as it currently stands, getting GG-endgame gear at level 58ish is a bit too early for my liking.
I have to agree with Asmongold here that seeing higher tier gear at lower levels isn't necessarily bad (unless it becomes common). It's nice to have some "Oh wow!" moments when you get something real nice for yourself on occasion. Just make it so it's pretty much impossible to deck yourself out in full BIS gear at level 60.
I think whats nice and amazing is being able to find items / build defining items at a certain level or meaningful items that you can use even in lategame due to something they offer. If the chance of finding really great gear at 60 ( in terms of rares) is there and increases with higher level content I wouldnt mind that either but right now you are basically looking for min/maxing when not even in endgame content which feels very poor.
I didnt find a weapon upgrade in like 35 levels (65 to 100) which is just a sad feeling
I got lucky with an ilvl 817 weapon somewhere in the 70s (I think) and am still using it at level 96. Can't find anything comparable even though its affixes leave something to be desired. I had streaks of luck getting good affixes early on, which meant I barely upgraded anything in the 80s and 90s. I do hope they tweak rng eventually to give better chances at better rolls as monsters gain in levels. If their stated goal is something like 60-100 hours per season, there is no reason to make it such a crapshoot.
On July 17 2023 21:53 Manit0u wrote: I really need to finish the campaign today but it's such a chore... It's pretty boring, running back and forth between zones I've already been in feels like I'm just running in circles doing stupid errands instead of progressing. The whole structure of it is rather weak, the fact that you can do the first 3 acts in any order robs it of any sense of urgency. "If you don't do this we're all doomed! But it's OK to go on a lengthy journey somewhere else first."
That's pretty much the modern RPG right there. 20 hours main story, 100 hours of sidequests. At some point, you ignore the main villain to fight an even stronger being who is minding his own business in the middle of nowhere while romancing 10 different people and rebuilding your hometown and hopping to alternate dimensions and where am I in the story again? NGL, the Japanese ones where you ignore the world ending threat for a week to do homework are my guilty pleasure.
On July 18 2023 04:55 Manit0u wrote: I think what I find kinda discouraging is that after all this traveling (I'm over halfway in Act V now, at the Tree of Whispers) you end up pretty much right next to the area where you start the game.
It maybe wouldn't be this bad if the campaign was actually a bit more on-rails experience. They should move away from the open world concept in the beginning, just open up a few key areas as you progress through the campaign and then whole world opening up once you've completed the campaign (altars of lilith and sidequests should also only really appear once you've completed the campaign). Sure, it probably wouldn't feel so grand and all but I think it might be way more enjoyable if it were a bit more contained in the beginning with more options opening up at the end (that includes dungeons, cellars and such).
Just noodling around with an alt on my brother’s account
Elements I do like for sure. The open-world though I feel it’s some of the biggest drag, especially combined with the scaling.
You never get that feeling I got with say, Breath of the Wild where you journey to some area you’re not meant to be, maybe get your ass kicked, maybe through skill or subterfuge you hang with the enemies there. Or load the fuck up with heals to try and blitz the freezing areas before you’ve got the items that make you immune to cold.
Also as the quests are so heavily marked and super linear, I don’t feel they mesh super well with an open world kinda gig.
Been like 15 years at least since I played D2, so my accuracy may be off but as a kid first playing it it was super cool to hit that Act 2, that new tileset and have that feeling of exploration and adventure, even if ultimately it wasn’t super deep. Also on a tangent the Arcane Sanctum was cool as fuckkk
Got some cube, gotta find Tal’Rasha’s tomb, there’s dummy tombs and all that kind of stuff.
If you’re going to do the open world stuff, make it a bit more open. Explore a bit on top of the combat loop. Try to uncover clues in mysteries and have them spawn in differing locales, that kinda stuff.
Or keep it fully linear and tighter. I’m kinda OK with either.
At present I feel it’s an open world game with no real reason to be an open world game. Although I am digging the core gameplay and some of the quests and general story/presentation too.
Finished the campaign and did the capstone dungeon. Campaign overall is kinda OK except for the problems already outlined: 1. It's way too long and some parts feel unnecessary and could've been dropped without any loss. 2. World is too open too soon. 3. Characters are kinda weak, especially Nyrelle.
It still kinda feels a bit disjointed though. From the RP standpoint and locations it looks like druid would fit the world the most, story-wise I think blood necro would be a perfect fit and for exploration with all the climbing and acrobatics I always regretted I'm not a rogue.
In the end, after some experimenting around I'm happy I went with fire sorc build as it avoids all of the problems of ice and lightning sorcs. The only downside is that your clear speed isn't as good but at least it's constant and safe. Perfect build for lazy people that don't want to click too much or worry about twitch reflexes and missing your skills. It doesn't matter if there's 100 enemies or just 1 your gameplan is exactly the same, also doesn't matter how long the fight lasts as you basically never run out of mana and always do damage and heal at the same time without even targeting enemies so can focus on the mechanics. Capstone dungeon boss was the first time I had to use more than 1 potion in a fight lol.
EPT
