EPTI'd tend to agree dailies don't sound like a good idea.
Diablo IV - Page 32
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
I'd tend to agree dailies don't sound like a good idea. | ||
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Miragee
8657 Posts
On September 28 2022 00:41 ProMeTheus112 wrote: I think season pass is also just a way for the dev to get a (optional) income if you keep playing the game which just has to help with continuing the maintenance and development over a long period of time. CS:Go doesn't have season pass but loot crates and has abysmal anti cheating lul. Last I played it anyway. Technically it does get a income so it doesn't have to be that way but w/e. I'm all for some optional way to donate to dev to support a game so that's one way to do it.. I'd tend to agree dailies don't sound like a good idea. I mean, that's exactly the problem that was brought up though? The pass is designed to keep you playing. It's an extrinsic incentive as opposed to an intrinsic incentive that would inherently be fun. I'm all for an optional way to donate, especially without any MTX. But I suppose this wouldn't work as a f2p model because people need the feel of having bought something specifically, even if that means attaching an arbitrary monetary value to some pixels. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On September 28 2022 01:20 Miragee wrote: I mean, that's exactly the problem that was brought up though? The pass is designed to keep you playing. It's an extrinsic incentive as opposed to an intrinsic incentive that would inherently be fun. I'm all for an optional way to donate, especially without any MTX. But I suppose this wouldn't work as a f2p model because people need the feel of having bought something specifically, even if that means attaching an arbitrary monetary value to some pixels. I just think it doesn't have to be exclusive there can be a pass and the game is fun to play and you play it for that reason but then you just happen to get some pass progression by playing even when not looking at the pass which is what happens in these games so it doesn't matter. Here there is character boost included in the free pass so it's going to matter how you get to the boosts and what the boosts are but it could be you just get some regular progression just by playing quite normally.. will have to see how it's done I think. If I give an example in D2 you may get to boost all or any of your characters by farming many possible locations sometimes in any difficulty with any of your characters with item drops which you transfer or trade, there's no daily and there's freedom in the way to do it so it's not like you have to complete that one or few specific quests daily to trigger that boost and it's fine. So depends how it's done I guess^^ | ||
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Simberto
Germany11798 Posts
Nowadays, the way to make more money is to milk more money from the players you already have. So the design goals shift. If you sell XP boosts, there is an incentive to make boostless XP so low that it is less fun to play that way. If you sell cosmetics, there are incentives to make the stuff you find in game look less cool. Then you have mechanics to make people come back every day, because those are the people who spend the most. Instead of a fun machine that you buy once, the game becomes a money milking machine that is just fun enough to keep you playing, but which also hides fun, or the idea of fun, behind more spending. And it is actively designed with that goal in mind. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On September 28 2022 01:28 Simberto wrote: And furthermore, it perverts the design space. In oldschool gaming development, making the game fun was the most important thing, because fun games tend to sell more, and thus make more money. Nowadays, the way to make more money is to milk more money from the players you already have. So the design goals shift. If you sell XP boosts, there is an incentive to make boostless XP so low that it is less fun to play that way. If you sell cosmetics, there are incentives to make the stuff you find in game look less cool. Then you have mechanics to make people come back every day, because those are the people who spend the most. Instead of a fun machine that you buy once, the game becomes a money milking machine that is just fun enough to keep you playing, but which also hides fun, or the idea of fun, behind more spending. And it is actively designed with that goal in mind. Yeah I definitely would never play a game that offers paid boosts like Lost Ark? Seems like the game may be not bad but I will never play it cause it has that flaw same with D:Immortal (much worse i guess?) etc. Exactly for the reason you said + more. (I suppose Lost Ark players would argue it's basically about subscribing to the boost but I'm not sure about the details seems pretty complicated) But when it's cosmetics I don't really care. Are the basic items ugly? If so and it feels overall kinda bad, that could make me want to leave that game and play another instead. But sometimes it just doesn't matter cause the basic items are just fine.. or better in their own way. Pubg basic clothes have better camo, basic weapons are just fine. Valorant basic weapons are fine. Some skins are pretty cool including free ones.. I understand what you mean with mechanics making people come back every day can be wrong, as opposed to just making the game fun. If the game is actually well made it can just be straight out fun though can't it? That's how I feel about the games I played that have season passes or cosmetic shops. I mean I remember when I kept playing SC and I realized wtf i'm gonna keep playing this more hundreds or thousands of hours and I only bought the game once, I wouldn't mind supporting with more to keep it working. Which I kinda did by buying it several times but now the devs are putting these in the games for that reason also so it doesn't have to be bad. Idk. I realize which dev we're talking about ofc lul I guess I'm just saying will see. | ||
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jgfjhgjhgrtz
1 Post
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On September 28 2022 07:07 jgfjhgjhgrtz wrote: Why cant YOU just play the game how you want? It's a multiplayer game you're part of a game world with other players, same reason why you'd be affected by others cheating if there are systems that reward players for doing something you don't like, it's going to affect you too. + entire systems may be designed to enforce or favour these etc so it would even likely affect you single player (there is no single player in this case if i understand correctly) (also its not subscription based.. its kinda the point of such season passes, they're just optional and have a free part). | ||
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aseq
Netherlands3996 Posts
On September 28 2022 01:28 Simberto wrote: And furthermore, it perverts the design space. In oldschool gaming development, making the game fun was the most important thing, because fun games tend to sell more, and thus make more money. While I agree, the way I picture 'oldschool gaming development' here would be a couple nerds in a garage that have a good time making a game lots of people enjoy playing. As soon as other means of income but just selling games were possible, they would be considered by any decent sized game company. I've always followed this Diablo Discussion(TM), even though I think it's endless, since there are always people who prefer this or that and any game company (bigger than 10) nowadays has the task of considering what is the best setup for making money. The game hardly has any skill. And any difference in skill level is hard to measure, there are no systems in place for this. So it's not a competitive game, therefore it should be fun to play. However bad you are, putting in hours always nets you progress. Leveling your character gives you a feeling of progress which is a dopamine train. Any other player being able to jump you in progress by paying nets in a feeling of unfairness or disappointment. So it's up to the game company to make the decision whether they're they going to allow any spending advantages outside of only cosmetics. And which ones, players being able to just buy levels on their character would feel a lot worse than them being able to level 20% faster with a monthly pass. But is being able to buy an axe that hits harder worse or better than this? I think that professional studios are extremely aware of all of this, and weigh off these options against revenue. Keeping the majority of the players happy is important, but making a profit is always going to be of the biggest importance, especially a bigger studio. Moral of the story: since we're playing dumb games that waste our time, should we really be bothered about this so much? | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On September 28 2022 09:15 aseq wrote: The game hardly has any skill. And any difference in skill level is hard to measure, there are no systems in place for this. So it's not a competitive game, therefore it should be fun to play. However bad you are, putting in hours always nets you progress. Leveling your character gives you a feeling of progress which is a dopamine train. Any other player being able to jump you in progress by paying nets in a feeling of unfairness or disappointment. So it's up to the game company to make the decision whether they're they going to allow any spending advantages outside of only cosmetics. And which ones, players being able to just buy levels on their character would feel a lot worse than them being able to level 20% faster with a monthly pass. But is being able to buy an axe that hits harder worse or better than this? I think that professional studios are extremely aware of all of this, and weigh off these options against revenue. Keeping the majority of the players happy is important, but making a profit is always going to be of the biggest importance, especially a bigger studio. Moral of the story: since we're playing dumb games that waste our time, should we really be bothered about this so much? My sorta simple answer to this is, likely one of the main skills in a ARPG can be managing your inventory in general, which in multiplayer context usually includes trading within the economy of your server. The basic damage that being able to pay for generating anything but cosmetics does is that it drastically reduces the value in actually playing the game. You're not trading game value and ability at managing inventory against other players anymore but money which is likely more easily earned by not playing the game lul. Combat skills can be real in ARPG i am quite sure but it depends tremendously on game difficulty (+depth). If you would think that Elden Ring can take skill, you can see how a Diablo game can take skill as well even just in PvM or PvE. It just so happens that sometimes the endgame or some parts of the game can become really easy because you may become OP, but that doesn't mean the way to it wasn't engaging a sense of skill (and it doesn't necessarily have to be the case that your character can ever be OP, either. Low game difficulty or endgame difficulty usually gets me to quit). Then there is PvP. Most Pvp players in D2 I'm sure would agree there is a sense of skill there.. Being a RPG, when in a unbalanced situation you might just take super easy wins, but that's not always the case. Now skill depends on the depth of the "match ups", which are potentially different character to character, and your ability to recognize the plays. tldr I think skill exists in combat in RPGs as well as inventory management and tweaking stats, etc. Anyway all the info they gave on D4 buyables, is that its fully cosmetics. The pass is progressed by playing and you can unlock its cosmetic rewards by paying, and if you don't pay you will get all the character boosts for free. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17719 Posts
On September 30 2022 07:27 ProMeTheus112 wrote: The pass is progressed by playing and you can unlock its cosmetic rewards by paying, and if you don't pay you will get all the character boosts for free. It's not free though. Sure, you don't spend money on it but now you're investing time and effort (not to mention mental health if progressing the pass requires you doing specific things that you might not want to do at the moment - seriously, fuck daily/weekly tasks). Or they can do even worse things, like in DI, where you got some pass that ticked every day but if you missed a day you were screwed. Hate things like that. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On September 30 2022 10:10 Manit0u wrote: It's not free though. Sure, you don't spend money on it but now you're investing time and effort (not to mention mental health if progressing the pass requires you doing specific things that you might not want to do at the moment - seriously, fuck daily/weekly tasks). Or they can do even worse things, like in DI, where you got some pass that ticked every day but if you missed a day you were screwed. Hate things like that. Sure yeah lets see how it is. Maybe you get pass progression just and only by leveling up any time or something. Or maybe something else that's fun or doesn't put much extra constraints or w/e (such as.. salvaging uniques or salvaging rare stuff could be sorta). Maybe also the boosts are small and you don't need to pursue them to get to your goals faster anyway etc idk. | ||
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HGFRZETE
1 Post
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Manit0u
Poland17719 Posts
On September 30 2022 17:29 HGFRZETE wrote: 1. Screwed? Like in you are no longer able to play the game properly? In what game do you had to do all those chores? Be specific 2. Remember when "daily" in diablo 2 was so time consuming that a vast majority of people were running bots? 3. Can you please explain why Path of Exiles shits the bed that quickly after a new season? It doesnt have all those "chores", does it? Let alone the amount of possible build variations should provide half a year of gameplay, or? Jesus fucking Christ. Will you just go away and never leave your troll cave ever again? And I will answer your questions to maybe shut you up once and for all: 1. I can no longer play the game properly when I have to do specific stuff in specific time window (aka: gain 10 levels, find 3 rare items etc. and it resets your progress when you skip a day or something). You can see such stuff in plenty of games (take Dota 2 pass for example). 2. I don't give a shit about people running bots. I never were and never will. I enjoyed D2 at my own pace and a lot of other people did. Bots were also only present in the online sphere, which I didn't really touch in D2. 3. I don't know almost anything about PoE since I've never played it (tried it a bit during the beta and decided it's not for me) and I have no idea why you keep bringing it up. I'm not interested in league, seasonal or any form of competitive play in my ARPG. I also have a bit of an OCD and am a completionist in things I like so all those FOMO practices only generate anxiety in me and lead to depressive states. Edit: And before anyone starts with arguments like "You can just ignore the pass/season and enjoy your game" please stop. There are whole teams of psychologists and designers making sure this stuff is virtually impossible to ignore. First thing that you see when you log in is some special limited time offer and/or current pass progress, then there's bazillion exclamation marks all over your UI which require you to click through 5 different menus to make them go away because even if you won't take any offer they have to make sure you've at least seen them. For me it's impossible to enjoy a game like that and there are people who are much worse but mental health of their customers is of no concern to gaming companies it seems. It used to be that if the game was good you played it, if it was bad you didn't and forgot about it. Now even if the game is good you have 5 different "games" inside of it that are simply horrible, which generates conflicting emotions. | ||
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Archeon
3265 Posts
Like why would you reduce normal mob exp to the point where slaying monsters is far less important than getting your quest exp in an ARPG? Why would you make loot chances plummet once you find a few uniques and then reset at the next day? Why would you reduce the exp you get when you're ahead of the server? The whole game is built as one big daily quest that makes playing past a certain amount of hours a day pretty much worthless, so it's an exemplary case for how monetization can invade design space. The fact that Blizz made tons of cash with it will mean that I'll take a second and a third look at d4 before I buy it. | ||
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jfgjtfrztrfg
1 Post
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kjhkjzurtgfh
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8842 Posts
im just gonna wait for fellow tlers to sacrifice themselves for the bros and see what the reviews are. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
1] similar games usually encounter technical issues on launch due to unpredictable and untestable affluence and D3 had big outcry from players due to that. I've seen most wow servers even the private ones with the best teams usually have some few crashes at launch etc. It seems to me the best way to avoid that is to gradually increase how many players can log in on start to alleviate the technical issues so I suppose that may also be why they'd be doing the early access stuff. Now to put this on pay is a bit awkward as opposed to just gating either by queues at first (maybe annoying queue wait for players though) or just randomize who gets to play earlier or something but if they're only doing this on season 1 and launch of game, then it won't matter on the next seasons. So if one doesn't like it they could just wait season 2 to start playing and watch how it goes I guess. I definitely wouldn't like to see this headstart given on every season to accounts bought for more doubt that's the case though. 2] I didn't know about these trade restrictions. I feel like having some stuff being restricted from trading somehow sounds all right, however for all the best items to be entirely restricted from trading sounds slightly disappointing because that sounds like trading may not give you much benefit in the end. However it kinda helps players who don't really want to trade and since getting to the point where you're able to grab the best stuff matters, and the gear that you can actually trade helps you getting there, then there would still be benefit to trading so, that could be fine too. (tbh even vanilla Wow is kinda like this and trading in wow is fun, beneficial and interesting but I still definitely felt like there's too much limit as you cannot access over 80% of the best gear at all unless you engage in the raids that reward it, didn't want to do raids, eventually as patches progress the raid gear becomes OP vs the other gear etc). It's very nice I think when you can freely trade some of the best stuff because it gives you a ton more option as to how you're going to get the best stuff for your character. One risk is that some of best stuff becomes too easy to farm and becomes a kinda easy or best profit, or becomes too cheap so that all characters can trade for it kinda early and become OP or it's too common and it's too easy to max out on gear etc. Good to know there is trading in the game. I'm getting a feeling that some of the best stuff may be automatic drops from specific quests or bosses which isn't necessarily as exciting as rare random drops from many possible places, also it could be kinda like wow where the drop chance is specific to a boss or quest and also low so you'll just want to repeat that one thing many times to eventually get it but will see. | ||
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KobraKay
Portugal4269 Posts
Not even RSL is brave enough to sell headstarts and that one is a gacha game expert in selling stuff to the players without them noticing much. Plarium will be blushing if they never thought of this one xD | ||
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