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On October 03 2020 13:19 misominja wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2020 12:21 kramvti wrote:On October 03 2020 07:31 misominja wrote:On October 03 2020 01:43 kramvti wrote:On October 03 2020 01:36 ProMeTheus112 wrote: its funny cause during D3 dev it was said by representatives that "skill trees were (thankfully) a thing of the past" or such thing, glad this attitude has disappeared skill trees can be great D3 was made in a way to try to make it approachable to the masses. This includes respecs to your heart's content, simplified systems, and leads to a lack of depth. At least they seem to be looking a bit more towards players that actually like playing arpg's rather than trying to get everyone to play arpg's. Why cant you just spec whatever you want in Diablo 3? Can you do that in Diablo 2, and its just as effective as every other build? Making every build the 'same effectiveness' means there is no reason to bother to be creative. I quit D2 when they introduced respec and got rid of Iron Maiden. At least there, it took a modicum of effort to actually do a respec. Having no cost to those types of changes makes it boring to me. I could click every talent in Diablo 2 and have every spell avaible at any point. How does this have any depth/creativity? Why cant you be creative picking 6 spells?
Clicking every spell in the tree is the way to make a weak character. So, you have to think a bit past your nose to get much of anything done in the late game. Adn you cannot do this at 'any point'. You had to invest in thre prerequisites to get the later ones down the line.
Though I did have several characters that made use of all 16 hotkeys.
One point you made unintentionally was right. Creativity usually is at its height WITH restrictions. Great artists don't use every medium, the tend to be the greatest in 1 medium, for example.
On October 03 2020 22:26 Simberto wrote: And i would say that creativity is greatly impacted if the cost of attempting new stuff is very high.
If you cannot respec in any way, that means that any time you try something new, you have to invest hours upon hours into grinding up a new character, just to most likely notice that the new thing you tried is shit. Few people will do that. Most people will just look up some cookie cutter build that they know works, and play that.
If the game is good, you would not spend many hours playing it, trying new things to do? Really? Maybe this is the difference between the older generation of players and the newer generation. Even running trough every quest, in every difficulty, doing end boss runs before changing difficulties etc, at a semileisurely pace was a couple of days.
I also enjoyed running through the lower difficulties with a new idea. It allowed me time to actually understand what were the weaknesses of the character. What were the best options to mitigate immunities and the like. Which monsters were going to be the most dangerous etc. If you just jumped to hell difficulty, you would be unprepared for this in a lot of ways. Sure, I get that you don't want to spend a slew of time doing this, but why should you be rewarded perpetually for NEVER doing it?
Even when I quit, there were still people crying about Pit Vipers. The ones that followed cookie cutter builds and called it a day died to these a lot. I rarely did...why? because I tested a lot of damage mitigation stuff with them, and found that integer damage reduction was the way to go. Most god tier items actually lacked this attribute. This is probably more well known now, but it was not then. And I am still sure that people rip to them and think they are OP.
On October 03 2020 21:43 heronn wrote: D2 skill system is max skill + synergies, there is nothing complex in it. Patch 1.10 destroyed D2 imo.
There was a lot of room in this system. Just because many can't do anything but copy others doesn't mean the game ends there. Take a look at the Lacerator weapon. It gives Amplified damage on hit, but also makes monsters flee at a higher rate. Ever think of making a character around them? I did. And made a character I have never seen duplicated, nor a guide ever made to. Hint: It was a barb.
Also. 1.10 is essentially the ONLY patch that ANY mod worth a fart has been made on. Take a look at the ones that are still around today. They are all based on 1.10. It has nothing to do with the syngergy system, it has to do with what was softcoded, and thereby much more accessible to the modding community. Peter Hu? actually went TO the modding community and asked what they wanted most...how times have changed.
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On October 04 2020 02:40 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2020 21:43 heronn wrote: D2 skill system is max skill + synergies, there is nothing complex in it. Patch 1.10 destroyed D2 imo. i dont disagree patch 1.10 destroyed a lot, but you can still do the more in depth stuff at least : s and you can still benefit from that in some ways such as being more able to solo any mobs in hell due to having attacks with multiple elements etc but because 8Players is always more efficient since only +50% mob health per player (patch 1.10 too, down from +100%) and more.. patch 1.09 best represents D2 depth it seems eh. limited respec (implying cost etc) can be pretty good i agree but i think there are still some pros to not being able to do that. You don't have to end up with a very weak character if the game is well balanced. and if leveling up isn't crazy long it's not so difficult to start up some new chars and build different using all stuff on the way. idk personally i like that, but if most players don't then uh w/e. I mean yeah when you play HC after you die you'll restart anyway so. why need to be able to fully respec at little or no cost if the game is well made fun and challenging from the start and balanced so you can't necessarily end up with a super weak char for example. unless you go crazy all in on some specific thing and it's just not versatile enough or w/e.
I think that's the crux of it. People simply don't have as much time to spend on a single game any more because internets and shit. Personally I find respec to be a great idea, for when you're really used to certain character (you like the name, you have some unique achievements, the char has some notoriety in the community etc.) and don't feel like creating a new one but you'd still like to tweak/experiment (especially when new patches come out). I just think both D2 and D3 took a wrong approach. Limited respec as in D2 is, well, limited (what if you respec every patch and 4th patch comes along?). Unlimited free respec makes your choices meaningless (as discussed in depth previously).
Personally I'd be all for a system that allows you unlimited respecs but to each respec would require you to clear some hard end game content, gather some rare materials etc. I would also make it that the materials needed are only being dropped when you actually start the 'respec quest', which you can't repeat until you actually respec (and respeccing to the same spec doesn't count, so you can't abuse it by having respec materials in abundance). You can do it unlimited times but each respec will require some significant effort on your part.
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On October 04 2020 09:26 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2020 02:40 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On October 03 2020 21:43 heronn wrote: D2 skill system is max skill + synergies, there is nothing complex in it. Patch 1.10 destroyed D2 imo. i dont disagree patch 1.10 destroyed a lot, but you can still do the more in depth stuff at least : s and you can still benefit from that in some ways such as being more able to solo any mobs in hell due to having attacks with multiple elements etc but because 8Players is always more efficient since only +50% mob health per player (patch 1.10 too, down from +100%) and more.. patch 1.09 best represents D2 depth it seems eh. limited respec (implying cost etc) can be pretty good i agree but i think there are still some pros to not being able to do that. You don't have to end up with a very weak character if the game is well balanced. and if leveling up isn't crazy long it's not so difficult to start up some new chars and build different using all stuff on the way. idk personally i like that, but if most players don't then uh w/e. I mean yeah when you play HC after you die you'll restart anyway so. why need to be able to fully respec at little or no cost if the game is well made fun and challenging from the start and balanced so you can't necessarily end up with a super weak char for example. unless you go crazy all in on some specific thing and it's just not versatile enough or w/e. Personally I'd be all for a system that allows you unlimited respecs but to each respec would require you to clear some hard end game content, gather some rare materials etc. I would also make it that the materials needed are only being dropped when you actually start the 'respec quest', which you can't repeat until you actually respec (and respeccing to the same spec doesn't count, so you can't abuse it by having respec materials in abundance). You can do it unlimited times but each respec will require some significant effort on your part. yeah something like this pretty good yeah i mean i like to play many different games, i dont necessarily think of playing a ARPG only for some amount of time though I would do that when i'm into it for sure. I just think of it like the full journey matters and the way that you build up your chars during the journey matters, you have to prepare for some things and overcome some challenges to make it work, use what you collect on the way which varies and may make you tweak your build etc, and that's why i feel like something is lost if you can just respec afterwards anyway, especially when it's free. Cause then you can just go for whatever build that destroys the early phase then switch to something else and it's like you play less of the long run game, it kinda resets after some point instead, the choices you did before didn't matter or mattered little or just less. But if there is some cost to it it's good, effort sure for each reset or some smaller effort for a smaller reset, or better yet a cost that has some long run significance. Like if you never reset at all you actually gain something. Say when you respec you lose x% total stat points or something like that. I would like that. For example say you want to reset your strength points, only them get refunded (could be 25% of them) and you can respend them but you lose some little % of that. Not gonna make you actually weak unless you fully reset multiple times [say you lose 1 stat point for a partial refund out of a total of about 400 stat points]. If you actually fully reset multiple times your char isn't what it was built like at all in the first place so if you want a stronger char should make a new one. I would like that. Eh, just my opinion^^ (even more practical : you can choose to lose 1 total stat point for refunding X stat points and re allocating them. X could be about 10, or 15 or 20 or 25 or w/e depending on how you want to effect characters who use this mechanic. Similar thing for skill points if there are or not if their power is based on stat points or w/e system so that resetting some skills implies some long term cost) Leveling doesn't have to take 100s of hours. Your achievements during leveling may determine the total power of your character at the "end" where you gain much less power per time and maybe set for other objectives.
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I dislike the idea of making a character permanently weaker for respeccing, that is basically the same as forcing you to grind up new characters to try new stuff. Losing some of your stat points on each respec basically means the same as not allowing you to respec at all, at least to me.
I like there being some cost to it, though, because as others have said, if you can constantly and instantly respec for free, your character doesn't actually feel as if it is has any notable spec in any way.
I think my preferred way would be some cost that is repeatable, but takes a bit of effort to regain. Maybe Losing 1-5% of your total XP or something like that.Or just one level worth of XP. Or level scaling gold, if gold is actually valuable in any way. Makes it not that bad at lower levels, but actually a lot of effort once you are really far up there. And it allows you to just play, spend some points, try out stuff, and then change your mind.
The problem with hard endgame content would be that you can only respec once you are able to clear that hard endgame content, so players would be really annoyed if they felt that their character is to weak to clear that content due to their shitty build.
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A cube recipe with some less farm intensive drops and vendor ingredients (as gold sinks) for a respec is probably the best solution imo. Since it can easily be tweaked by inrceasing or decreasing the drop rates and adjusting the gold amount.
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Genuinely surprised that nobody postet this yet
https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/diablo4/23583664/diablo-iv-quarterly-update-december-2020
+ Show Spoiler +TABLE OF CONTENTS Introduction
Skills Tree
Primary Stats
Weapon Types
Item Qualities
Legendary Affixes
Uniques
Hello, and welcome once again to the Diablo IV Quarterly Update—our last for 2020!
Progress on the game continues at a steady clip and we’re excited about several big updates and revisions that the team’s worked on for a long time that we are trying to complete before the holidays. Today’s topic centers on one such major revision, which also happens to be the most requested topic this year: Itemization.
Items are the lifeblood of Diablo. They are the element of the game that captures your imagination and keeps you playing and wondering, “What if?” after you put the game down. Whether it’s anticipating the next piece of perfectly rolled godly gear or kicking around item combinations in your head like a mad scientist, items are undoubtedly a major part of what makes Diablo so compelling and so different from other games.
Understanding how important it is to get itemization right, we paid special attention to early player feedback about this part of the game. We knew that many more iterations awaited between what we showed you at BlizzCon 2019, our follow-up blogs, and the final game release. We also knew from past Diablo entries that we will need to have the time and resources to make these iterations—thankfully, we have that baked into our current schedule. Getting all of your feedback encouraged us to move some of that iteration time forward so that we could get our newest direction in front of you sooner.
Lead Game Designer Joe Shely is going to walk us through all of our major itemization updates today. We’ve reviewed every aspect of itemization from top to bottom and reworked elements that we felt weren’t living up to their potential—from the individual stats that our classes tap into to the visual representation of items in your inventory. Of course, it’s still early and we still have lots more playtesting and iterating to do, but we think this direction puts us down a more solid foundational path and we couldn’t be happier to share it with you today.
You can keep tabs on what we’re up to on social media, and as always, please tell us what you think of this update on our forums and all your favorite places to talk Diablo! We’re probably hanging out there too, and we’ll continue to look out for popular topics to tackle in future blogs.
Speaking of which, our next update will take place during BlizzConline, rather than in blog form. We’ve read speculation about what it could be and want to ensure you that it is something chunky indeed. Without spoiling the surprise, Iet’s just say it involves a new version of the campfire scene we showed you last BlizzCon.
Thank you all, and see you in Hell!
-Luis Barriga,
Game Director, Diablo IV
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Today we're going to look at some changes to items in Diablo IV and update you on a few things we've shared in our previous development blogs. In deciding what changes to make, we focused on three core ideals:
First, we want to strengthen class identity by providing intuitive fantasy hooks. Items and skills that lean into the fantasy of your class are best. Second, we want to support deeper customization through our itemization. Items should support and enhance your class, not define it. Finally, we’re landing on overall depth somewhere between Diablo II and Diablo III. We aim to provide years of things to discover and countless ways to build a class. Skill Tree Since releasing the last quarterly blog post on the skill tree, we've been reviewing all of your feedback. Our team has also had a lot of hands-on time with our skill trees in frequent internal playtests, including an extended progression playtest. Based on this, we're confident that it's a solid direction, so we're going to iterate on it and make further improvements. For example, we're increasing the clustering of related skill nodes, so players don't have to go across the tree to find skill upgrades for their builds.
The ability to re-specialize or 'respec' your skills is a tricky one to balance. Like many of you, we want choices to matter and characters to feel different from each other—not just one click away from being identical to all the others. We also want to encourage players to experiment with different skills when they start playing, and discover builds that are right for them. In Diablo IV, you will be able to respec your skills and passives. The number of times you can do this will be unlimited, but it won’t be free. It will be easy to do when you first start a character; as your character grows, the effort and cost required to respec will grow too. In the end-game, changing your build will require a significant investment, to appropriately match the time and effort you’ve put into defining your character.
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Primary Stats In our last blog, we agreed with your feedback that too much of a character's power came from the items they wore. And we liked the imagery conjured by the phrases “Angelic Power” and “Demonic Power,” but they didn't reinforce the fantasy of what being a Barbarian, a Sorcerer, or a Druid is all about. So we went back to our roots and looked at the classic RPG elements of early Diablo games. What are you really doing when you wade through a horde of monsters and emerge a level higher on the other side? You're training; you're practicing a skill; you're getting better at what you do. Becoming stronger, and smarter.
After gaining a level, our barbarian has received 5 Stat points and 2 Skill points to spend.
When you gain a level, you'll receive points to spend in Strength, Intelligence, Dexterity, or Willpower, along with your skill points. Of course, most Barbarian builds are going to benefit from a healthy measure of Strength, but as you build out your character and decide on skills and synergies you'll want to mix in other attributes.
As a Barbarian, each point of Strength will increase the damage of your skills, while Willpower improves Fury generation, and Dexterity grants critical chance. Meanwhile, as a Sorceress, Intelligence increases skill damage, Willpower grants critical chance, and Dexterity hastens mana recovery. Each stat also confers a secondary defensive bonus.
You can supplement your character's stat build with items to give you a little more Willpower here, a little more Strength there, but the vast majority of your stats will come from how you choose to spend your points.
And here's where it gets really interesting. Many of the nodes in each class skill tree have additional effects if you meet specific primary stat thresholds. You'll get the baseline effect of these nodes when you spend the skill points to unlock them, but get enough of the corresponding primary stat and the bonus effect will activate.
You'll want to think carefully about how to allocate your stat points to activate these effects.
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Now, let's talk items!
Weapon Types As we hinted at in our last blog, we're making substantial changes to core itemization.
We’ll start by looking at the many different weapons available to classes in Diablo IV. Our weapon types look visually distinct and have meaningful effects on gameplay through features like the Barbarian's Arsenal. We've also done a lot of work in the game engine to make weapons feel more real and physical, like the Barbarian carving a trough through the ground with their mace during Upheaval.
Characters in Diablo IV use their weapons to perform skills and channel magical power.
But something was still missing. Wands should be faster than quarterstaves, and swords and maces should do different things. To see what that feels like in action, we've added weapon speeds and inherent characteristics to all weapons in our latest internal test environment.
Two different weapon choices for a level 20 Sorceress.
In general, one-handed weapons excel at letting you attack and reposition quickly, while slower two-handed weapons deal more damage. You can really feel the differences between them.
You can opt for a Staff to cast more damaging Frost bolts, or a Wand to channel them more quickly.
In addition to speed, each type of weapon has an inherent physical characteristic. For shields this is block value, meaning that any shield you find in Sanctuary is going to have block, in addition to any magical affixes it may have. As physical properties, these traits are consistent across all weapons of the same type and cannot be modified.
The physical characteristics of a weapon are shown above the separator in item tooltips. Here we see examples of a shield, wand, and axe.
You might notice another thing about these items: they're high-resolution renders of the actual equipment. In a game like Diablo, icons are important. They often contribute as much to the identity of a cool piece of loot as the in-game representation on your character. Items that don't appear on your character, like rings, are defined by their icons. We've upgraded all of them.
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Item Qualities We’ve also made some exciting changes to the game’s item qualities. Philosophically, we like the clarity of analysis afforded by clearly understood item tiers. In other words, we think players of all skill levels benefit from not having to scrutinize every single item that drops to see if it might be an upgrade for them—blue Magic items are good, but yellow Rares are usually better. There’s a great feeling of progression when you graduate into items with greater complexity, more powerful effects, and cooler looks as you level up. And the game-changing powers found on the Legendary items in Diablo III are exciting and offer many possible effects that just aren't possible with regular affixes.
That said, we don't want to end up in a place where the right decision is to ignore every item that doesn't have a glowing orange sky-beam.
So, we're making a lot of exciting changes here. We’re increasing the potential power of individual affixes on Magic items. We're increasing the maximum number of affixes on Rare and better items in the endgame. Legendary affixes now roll randomly (Yes, really!) on Legendary Items. And Unique items will replace Mythics.
Magic items can now have the most powerful regular affixes, while Rare items get up to five, and Legendary items have four regular affixes and one legendary affix.
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Legendary Affixes You can think of Legendary items as Rare items with one affix replaced with a legendary effect. These new legendary affixes work just like regular affixes, in that they can roll randomly on different items and in different slots. Many can be used by any class, while some are specific to a particular class.
Can't decide between making your Chill effects Freeze faster or more damaging ground effects for your boots? No problem! Legendary affixes aren't restricted to a specific slot.
You'll notice a variety of our affixes in the examples above, including elemental resistances and sockets for gems and runes, which can appear on items in place of another affix. And of course, Attack comes from your weapons while Defense comes from your armor. With the increase to the maximum number of affixes available on items, we'll also be adding new affixes to the game to make sure there's plenty of diversity.
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Uniques Unique items are making a comeback in a big way in Diablo IV. We're embracing the fantasy of these build-around items with completely fixed affixes, heavily thematic and usually class-specific powers, and distinctive looks.
Three Unique items available at level 20. A Unique will always appear with the same affixes.
We still like the idea of Mythic items, but we don't want to create an item quality that invalidates all others, so they're out for now. One of the things we loved most about them was the promise of getting random legendary powers on an item, so we folded that into our baseline legendary design.
With the addition of the skills and passives tree, primary stat points, and changes to items in Diablo IV, we can’t wait to see all the builds you’ll create. Maybe you'll focus on skills augmented by Uniques we designed, create something from scratch out of different legendary affixes, discover a creative pairing of primary stats with specific skills, or even incorporate the odd Rare or Magic item to maximize a specific affix to great effect.
We’re excited to read through the community feedback on the updates in this blog. As always, please remember that none of this is final as the game is still actively in development. Your constructive discussions around these features will continue to help Diablo IV, and we greatly appreciate your support and thoughts about the game. We will continue working on itemization throughout the development of Diablo IV and we are looking forward to seeing you at BlizzConline next year! We have lots to share in 2021 regarding some of our other features and we can’t wait to tell you all about them.
-Joe Shely,
Lead Game Designer, Diablo IV
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Thank the gods! They finally listened to reason and made something I'm actually looking forward to. Still not liking the open world aspect of it (I'm really only interested in playing single player) but it's a minor gripe compared to stats/skills/items. I only hope they introduce a way to play it solo without needing an internet connection (adding LAN would be amazing).
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back towards diablo 1 in almost all ways, looking like a game I would buy
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So it seems they are going to be unveiling a new character soon.
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On December 17 2020 00:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So it seems they are going to be unveiling a new character soon. You are as 0ldsch00l c00l as it gets, arent you?
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On December 17 2020 00:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So it seems they are going to be unveiling a new character soon.
I thought Blizzcon? Still 2 months away
My guess is next Char is a girl. Bow type. Somewhere between DH and Amazon
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On December 17 2020 00:31 jojomi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2020 00:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So it seems they are going to be unveiling a new character soon. You are as 0ldsch00l c00l as it gets, arent you? You probably quoted the wrong comment? Either way, that's not... a meaningful comment?^^
I appreciate the general direction, especially the idea of Leg > Rare > Magic not being true in general. Somehow seems a bit inconsistent with their "we dont want you to have to look at every item" idea at first glance, but if they go back to the way base items worked in D2, this makes sense. Is there any information available on what we can expect in terms of base item diversity/implementation?
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As long as it's not make or break a build with one specific item/ set I am fine with the itemization in general.
Weird that Diablo Immortal was "almost" finished Blizzcon 2018 and now we have 2021 and still nothing. I think Chang has lost his phone :/
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Well , after I took a week out of work for D3 and not being able to play due to server issues and once finally playable the game was meh , I am coming in to D4 with 0 expectations , BUT my hype meter is going slightly up as time goes by , and my inner D2 gamer Is starting to care more and more about D4 , won't be day 1 purchase no matter what it looks like pre release (who am I kidding.... but it will be a raged day 1 buy) , but as this looks like a do or die for the franchise I hope they can put together a great game that can give POE a run for its money.
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It's pretty weird how they associate high AS with high repositioning ability when in reality high AS means you spend more time attacking and less time moving. Fast attack animation is the one they are looking for. In general I like the idea of making weapon types unique by giving them unique properties, but +4% crit is like the opposite of unique especially if stats give crit chance and you can get a lot passively. I get that people associate high AS with high crit, but that's imo mainly a rogue/dex class thing and not something I imagine when I'm thinking of a sorcerer. Even with "barrage" builds I expect the class more to create damage by cascading magic missiles f.e. than by critting with spells.
That being said overall the general direction seems decent to me and more communication with playtesters can only be a good thing.
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No surprise. Doubt we will actually see Diablo IV release within 3 years.
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Thats insane. I think man its got to be out in 2022 then but people were really expecting it to come out in time for xmas last year. What an absolute mess of an empire blizzard has turned into this last decade.
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Maybe we can get the D2 remake in the interim. Especially now that they took on a team that's actually produced good quality stuff for this purpose.
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