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The best comparison is cheesing. It's a perfectly viable strat, noobs all say it's lame, but they lost and you won. Are you playing to win? or playing for some other reason? DoTA pubs all have made up rules in their heads, like '20min NR' in SC.
In leagues and competitive play, it's perfectly acceptable. There, everyone agrees that they'll use every means possible short of cheating to win. If a structure can be attacked, then it's perfectly acceptable to run to it and attack it at any time. All the 'exploitative' moves have been hard-coded to not work anymore. It's like cheese/allin in proleague or a tournament - a win's a win.
If you play to beat the other guys, then do it, just don't expect BNet pubbers to understand why you're not following their made up rules. Then again, if you play to win, why are you playing pub BNet games.
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Um because wards and tp doesn't stop back door anymore, the general accepted rule is that if the game is past 60 mins in pubs/pugs, you are free to back door, basically like Alv said, to break stalemates and turtles.
Back door is not a fair strategy because nothing else in the game forces the other team to suddenly change strategy/gameplay as quickly as backdooring. If you are powerful enough to back door safely, chances are its going to take 2-3 heroes to stop you effectively, as in actually keep you from killing what you intend to kill. To drag 2-3 heroes from one side of the map to the BD location is utterly ridiculous.
If you are winning and you backdoor, then you are just a general douchebag, people who say otherwise have never been backdoored themselves. If you think about it, there are heroes who can easily backdoor screw you before 20 mins and get a lane down regardless of whatever you do, because they can tie down your team the entire mid game. Chen, Enchant, CM/Harb, Pugna, Axe backdooring or creep skipping your towers will not be fun.
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On May 29 2009 12:01 Kaneh wrote:
The best comparison is cheesing. It's a perfectly viable strat, noobs all say it's lame, but they lost and you won. Are you playing to win? or playing for some other reason? DoTA pubs all have made up rules in their heads, like '20min NR' in SC.
In leagues and competitive play, it's perfectly acceptable. There, everyone agrees that they'll use every means possible short of cheating to win. If a structure can be attacked, then it's perfectly acceptable to run to it and attack it at any time. All the 'exploitative' moves have been hard-coded to not work anymore. It's like cheese/allin in proleague or a tournament - a win's a win.
If you play to beat the other guys, then do it, just don't expect BNet pubbers to understand why you're not following their made up rules. Then again, if you play to win, why are you playing pub BNet games.
What kind of shitty leagues are you playing where backdooring is legal the entire game? Nobody backdoors unless they need to (assuming they can in the first place).
And its not akin to cheese, read this thread before you post again. Its akin to hold lurker and allied mines. Losing your towers quickly in high level play means you lose any space to farm and gives them absolute freedom to gank.
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How can you be powerful enough to backdoor safely and have it take 2-3 heroes to stop you?
Wouldn't that mean the other team let you free farm too much anyway so it technically WOULD NOT MATTER?
I still don't see how you can' t see a backdoor coming with good ward placement and a TP scroll to your tower. Explain this please?
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is awesome32269 Posts
On May 29 2009 11:31 MYM.Testie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 11:29 IntoTheWow wrote:
Wow, this thread has 50 views and 13k views... *head explosion*
Sorry meant replies
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On May 29 2009 12:06 Ace wrote:
How can you be powerful enough to backdoor safely and have it take 2-3 heroes to stop you?
Wouldn't that mean the other team let you free farm too much anyway so it technically WOULD NOT MATTER?
I still don't see how you can' t see a backdoor coming with good ward placement and a TP scroll to your tower. Explain this please?
some heroes can just backdoor with neut creeps (enchant, chen, etc.), but warding properly gives you a free kill every time they try if you flank properly in their exit routes.
if someones gonna go try and tickle some towers solo, i don't see why you can't just counter push outnumbering 5v4. you did choose the heroes you did for a reason, and a guaranteed missing hero on the other side is pretty advantageous. glyph has a somewhat long cooldown, but for a serious backdoor attack, it should suffice.
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On May 29 2009 12:07 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 11:31 MYM.Testie wrote:On May 29 2009 11:29 IntoTheWow wrote:
Wow, this thread has 50 views and 13k views... *head explosion* Sorry meant replies
Too late. Head exploded. Now I'm just an autonomous body posting on tl.net.
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good point. I'd assume any sort of 5v4 push while the other guy is trying to backdoor would result in a massive rape of the other time and some tower->rax loss.
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What about back doors with like furion teleporting making trees, and having pit lord bring the whole team in to pwn the base in 5 seconds? This would cause all 5 heros in your base under 10 seconds, no amount of wards will help you there.
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given that they've picked pitlord and furion (lol), just roll over them.
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yeah but... they have furion and pitlord. it would be easy to stop their push :p
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I suppose, but then again my experience is from ar pub games. So lets say both teams have bad heroes, whats the opinion on super bding as I described.
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furion needs no help, just use the ultra spicy dc build imo
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On May 29 2009 12:41 xDark.Carnivalx wrote:
furion needs no help, just use the ultra spicy dc build imo
DO ELABORATE<3
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On May 29 2009 12:44 paper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 12:41 xDark.Carnivalx wrote:
furion needs no help, just use the ultra spicy dc build imo DO ELABORATE<3
ask mr.tastie, if he remembers
! better yet, ask awara, if he's still around, i pissed him off doing it one time
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On May 29 2009 11:15 Alventenie wrote:
Its generally not accepted except in specific cases (such as outer towers being in deny range and the opposing team doesn't kill it, that's their own fault for not noticing)
I've read in higher level dota play, TDA+, backdooring is allowed. Only in public games and some other lower level places is it not. It sounds to me like the public dota community figured out a way to outlaw dota cheesing.
>.>
On May 29 2009 12:02 Judicator wrote:
Back door is not a fair strategy because nothing else in the game forces the other team to suddenly change strategy/gameplay as quickly as backdooring. If you are powerful enough to back door safely, chances are its going to take 2-3 heroes to stop you effectively, as in actually keep you from killing what you intend to kill. To drag 2-3 heroes from one side of the map to the BD location is utterly ridiculous.
So it's inconvenient. Icefrog made it so towers you hadn't gotten to yet are invulnerable. If he wanted to outlaw bd'ing, he'd implement the same kind of coding he has that doesn't let you attack rosh--but he didn't. If he does it in 6.6, I'll eat my words. Until then, I think teams should develop strategies and habits that take into account all possibilities that can occur with in the game, whether thats carrying tp scrolls/having some dedicated defenders.
F9 and look at the linked rules--bd'ing is allowed.
In my specific case, an -rd game, my team had chosen a majority of early-game heroes. Our strategy was to push as hard and as fast as we could early game because as soon as the 50 min mark hit we wouldn't be able to win team fights. The point of the game we were at was well past the 60 min mark, and we had pushed down every lane of theirs except one. We'd killed the tower already. So I bottled an illusion rune with mirana, and with aid of lothars and leap got right next to their rax undetected. I wiped it out, caused mega creeps and gg.
They were pushing bottom (their good rax were top) and had I stayed top to fight, I would have just died or fired an arrow or two that wouldn't really amount to anything. I also looked through their items and saw not a SINGLE one of them had a tp that didn't have BoT. They would have finished us with that push. Instead I took the last strategy that could result in a win and used it. If I had tried pushing top from where the creep waves were, I never would have made it in time.
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I dont see the problem. It would be kind of stupid for you to fight headfirst into their strategy. Sounds like they were sore losers to me.
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On May 29 2009 12:48 xDark.Carnivalx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2009 12:44 paper wrote:On May 29 2009 12:41 xDark.Carnivalx wrote:
furion needs no help, just use the ultra spicy dc build imo DO ELABORATE<3 ask mr.tastie, if he remembers ! better yet, ask awara, if he's still around, i pissed him off doing it one time
15 TREES!
AMAZING!!!
;P
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TESTIE
IS FUCKING
CUNTBUCKETFAGGOTNUB
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On May 29 2009 12:55 Ace wrote:
I dont see the problem. It would be kind of stupid for you to fight headfirst into their strategy. Sounds like they were sore losers to me.
But my OWN TEAM was getting on me. We had just had 2 previous team fights where we initiated and got all our stuns off and they still killed all 5 of us for 1 maybe 2 people. I was the one who explained the strategy and called the ganks the entire game up to that point, and everybody still called me noob at the end. I was the only person in that game thinking about the metagame.
I mean honestly...wtf? Are there any dota communities where I don't have to deal with this kind of retardation?
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EPT
