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On May 31 2009 12:28 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2009 08:34 Alventenie wrote:On May 31 2009 08:27 nbtnbt5 wrote:
tps>backdoor
simple as that If your team is raping in team fights late game and is pushing lanes, why should it be that the opposing team can turn around and back door with a clinkz or gondar and win because they cant win team fights. That is absolutely retarded to think that because the team is winning and has all lanes pushed that the opposing team is magically allowed to bd for mega creeps to turn the game around. to be fair it's just another tactic. take guildwars for instance, it is actually a VERY good comparison in this case. the standard play is 8v8 gvg (im talking before expansions, dunno what shit came after), you go to middle (lanes), fight over flag (creeps, hk's), get morale (items) if you can keep flag, push into their base, kill npcs (towers) and finally kill guild lord (rax/tree) to win the game. see how great this compares to a standard dota game? and for a while, that's how this was. then Te (or maybe someone else did it first) came around with split teams, where they'd have some of their guys running around the back sniping the NPC bodyguards (aka towers) so that they can kill the guild lord (aka rax/tree) without having to fight the other team in 8v8 and win the game. aka exact same as backdoor, this comparison turned out better than i thought. what did the gw community do? whine? ban this? no of course, that would've been fucking retarded (like dota), they adapted instead and the gameplay got deeper. dota's just fairly bad that's all.
1)pretty certain WM developed it.
2)split builds were used to break apart immobile spike teams.
3)NPC =\= DotA Tower.
4)A better comparison would be a runner that could solo bodyguard/GL in 10 seconds, which you know would be fucked.
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I would just pick windrunner / clinkz every game if BDing was allowed, let's see how fun that would be!
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from icefrog:
"First, I want to thank everyone for their emails in the past week or so. Things have been kind of hectic lately. Even though I usually don't like to give a schedule, you guys have been very patient. My plan is to release 6.60 in early June and I am doing my best to make sure that there are no further delays. If a feature or change still needs more work, I'll try to save it for the next version instead so I can get this in your hands asap.
Here is a list of a few of the things to expect in 6.60. There will be many new items (at least 5) and improvements or remakes to current items. You can also expect lots of ability changes on old heroes, a couple hero remakes and a new hero or two. A new regeneration system for structures will be active only when they are attacked without creeps/corpses nearby (more detailed infomation on the mechanics for this in the changelog). Naturally there will be the usual balance, bug and visual fixes that come with every update. That is just a brief summary; there are a lot more interesting miscellaneous changes and features, but I'll save the rest for the changelog.
As always, feel free to let me know what things you do and don't like, feedback and suggestions are very important to me. Thanks again for the patience and I hope you guys enjoy the map."
and for the bd lovers:
A new regeneration system for structures will be active only when they are attacked without creeps/corpses nearby (more detailed infomation on the mechanics for this in the changelog)
sounds like something against bd?...
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On May 31 2009 21:54 L wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2009 12:28 JeeJee wrote:On May 31 2009 08:34 Alventenie wrote:On May 31 2009 08:27 nbtnbt5 wrote:
tps>backdoor
simple as that If your team is raping in team fights late game and is pushing lanes, why should it be that the opposing team can turn around and back door with a clinkz or gondar and win because they cant win team fights. That is absolutely retarded to think that because the team is winning and has all lanes pushed that the opposing team is magically allowed to bd for mega creeps to turn the game around. to be fair it's just another tactic. take guildwars for instance, it is actually a VERY good comparison in this case. the standard play is 8v8 gvg (im talking before expansions, dunno what shit came after), you go to middle (lanes), fight over flag (creeps, hk's), get morale (items) if you can keep flag, push into their base, kill npcs (towers) and finally kill guild lord (rax/tree) to win the game. see how great this compares to a standard dota game? and for a while, that's how this was. then Te (or maybe someone else did it first) came around with split teams, where they'd have some of their guys running around the back sniping the NPC bodyguards (aka towers) so that they can kill the guild lord (aka rax/tree) without having to fight the other team in 8v8 and win the game. aka exact same as backdoor, this comparison turned out better than i thought. what did the gw community do? whine? ban this? no of course, that would've been fucking retarded (like dota), they adapted instead and the gameplay got deeper. dota's just fairly bad that's all. 1)pretty certain WM developed it. 2)split builds were used to break apart immobile spike teams. 3)NPC =\= DotA Tower. 4)A better comparison would be a runner that could solo bodyguard/GL in 10 seconds, which you know would be fucked.
1) maybe. u know my memory isnt the greatest  we played te much more often than we played wm due to timezones so i can only imagine i saw it there first/most often
2) sure and backdooring can be intended to split teams the same way in dota. who are u gonna send back, ur initiator? ur carry? etc.
3) close enough, they even shoot at u !
4) no not really. firstly doesn't matter if its a solo, and secondly, 10 seconds in guild wars is not the same as 10 seconds in dota. plus there's no glyphs or tp's in gw anyway iirc.
but yeah echo + that necro's balance hp skill was pretty lulz. too bad that was changed
also that bd fix looks retarded ?
so 17 (or however many) seconds after your creeps die in their base you might as well get the hell out since all the buildings will be regenerating super fast?
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1) WM were the pioneers of the split build because (quite honestly) their players weren't as good as most of the euro/NA players in 8v8 fights or tactics. They needed an edge, so they forced people to develop superior vent management. Basically the idea was to just give up the flag and thin out NPCs, then wait for VoD and win via combined pressure of BG/Archer/GL with the VoD shout. Spike builds could still spike at that point, but since people had the VoD buff, pressure was much stronger and let warrior centric builds dominate because they were easier to split with and could tank/dps very well during VoD. Not really for Jee Jee, but backround for people who wanted to know what we're talking about.
2) well, backdooring splits teams in a far different manner than it does in GW. In GW you don't have invisible or hyper fast characters that you can't see splitting off, and a team at the flagstand can see exactly where your opponents are at (besides on fire island, but the split on fire island is fucking retarded anyways). I mean, that adds another point: if you had a shit build against split, you could fire island your guild hall and force them into an 8v8 fight (which is what most aoe pressure/E/mo runner or spike builds did). You also can't have that hero TP back and carry after an initiation up your ramp in GW; losing 2 people while you're getting pressured at your GL and losing bodyguards is serious.
Apart from the fact that you can lock out reliance on spike before the game even starts with guild hall choice, killing a bodyguard didn't do much. Unlike dota, where a hero becomes exponentially stronger with levels and money, heros in GW played at a maximum of a 50% deficit, and even that was rare because people would be out of the game at that point. The majority of spread was between +10 and -10. If guild wars, for instance, let you get morale boosts for every NPC kill which affected damage as well as health (up to, say 150%), and each NPC gave 10%, that would be a roughly analogous situation. Additionally, sending someone back to stop NPC gank against 2 heros was simple. if they ran Mo/x or x/Mo + 1 more merc, you could send back a single monk and invalidate 2 of their players. Splitting was NOT favorable against teams that could stop it because of the flagstand buffs, which would allow the 6+runner mid or 4+runner to push against the 3 middle npcs.
3) no, lol. towers would be closer to bodyguards, which are actually useful in stopping pressure before the VoD clump/shout.
4) that's the point. Stuff died slower and you had far more complete information. I mean, grenth's balance would have been fucking retarded with assassin teleport skills, and that's the way it is in dota. I've fought against the grenth spike a number of times, but unlike BDing, you can see what group composition your opponent has asap. The guy's running 4 necros and isn't using tainted flesh on any? The guy's not spiking with shadow? 0 of the necros are revealing their elites? You know that shit is coming, and you know their team has no chance to win besides that. When people split to attempt to cut the GL out (and they do) the opponents clearly see they're against 6 people, not 8, and 1 person nullifies that offence, not 4, nor does the GL die in 10~ seconds.
And that 'bd' fix is retarded too.
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"CLOSE THIS FUCKING THREAD, START DOTA, PRESS F9
???????????????
READ THE FUCKING RULES"
is what i want to say, but since i don't want to get b&, i'll help you out.
1. there is no such thing as backdoor, if someone complains, tell them they suck and spam the chat with something like... QQ MORE SENTINAL.
2. thats it.
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On June 01 2009 03:50 jodogohoo wrote:
"CLOSE THIS FUCKING THREAD, START DOTA, PRESS F9
???????????????
READ THE FUCKING RULES"
is what i want to say, but since i don't want to get b&, i'll help you out.
1. there is no such thing as backdoor, if someone complains, tell them they suck and spam the chat with something like... QQ MORE SENTINAL.
2. thats it.
lol =(
obviously there is such a thing as backdoor, what do you think this thread is about
also linking tda rules, classy.
also @ L, yeah there's few differences, but really, a lot of them are similar in gw as well. if you see they have a furion or like clinkz or some shit, you're aware of the possibility, similar to seeing a necro-heavy build. If you're pushing all their lanes and winning team fights (the scenario alv presented) you have full map control and can see a bd coming (furion tp i suppose being the exception, but part of that is even hard-coded in dota to be forbidden anyway, you can't just tp into an enemy base as furion)
my whole point is that it was a tactic that was eventually phased out (iirc) because people became too good at raping the teams who try it (and also they stopped using builds that would get raped by it like e/mo spam or whatever). that's not to say it didn't dominate for a while, and it was annoying as fuck to play against. it made everyone better players though
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why did you edit out your oh-so-very-enlightening replies? 
QQ more indeed
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On June 01 2009 03:56 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2009 03:50 jodogohoo wrote:
"CLOSE THIS FUCKING THREAD, START DOTA, PRESS F9
???????????????
READ THE FUCKING RULES"
is what i want to say, but since i don't want to get b&, i'll help you out.
1. there is no such thing as backdoor, if someone complains, tell them they suck and spam the chat with something like... QQ MORE SENTINAL.
2. thats it. lol =( obviously there is such a thing as backdoor, what do you think this thread is about also linking tda rules, classy. also @ L, yeah there's few differences, but really, a lot of them are similar in gw as well. if you see they have a furion or like clinkz or some shit, you're aware of the possibility, similar to seeing a necro-heavy build. If you're pushing all their lanes and winning team fights (the scenario alv presented) you have full map control and can see a bd coming (furion tp i suppose being the exception, but part of that is even hard-coded in dota to be forbidden anyway, you can't just tp into an enemy base as furion) my whole point is that it was a tactic that was eventually phased out (iirc) because people became too good at raping the teams who try it (and also they stopped using builds that would get raped by it like e/mo spam or whatever). that's not to say it didn't dominate for a while, and it was annoying as fuck to play against. it made everyone better players though
But that's the thing, against any build with clinks, furion, SA, gondar, CK, nearly anyone with a blink, naga, anyone with lothars and high dps... etc. can potentially backdoor you, and what do you do? Well, you hope he fucks up and you get a kill on him so you can push before he resses. Bad defensive gameplay.
And splitting was never phased out: shitty teams who didn't know how to split properly stopped doing it, but WM came in second during the world championship with the build, and LastEvil ran a specific counter to it (LOL GALE ON EVERYONEEEEEEEE). In dota you bring 5 heros to the table in 3 lanes. In GW, you bring 8 characters, a map, 4 skill trees and 8 skills on each character as well as 3 weapon sets to each game. I mean, I understand what you're trying to say, that adapting is the way to go, but there's nothing to adapt to. If tping was instant, hero strength didn't scale up so quickly, ramps had trebuchets to clear them, etc I'd agree.
But just go back to grenths. That's the way dota with BD plays out. That's why it was removed.
Edit: WM was in the second championship and split there too. They also won that championship. IQ's game 3 play was a 100% attempt to backdoor the GL, which failed because the entire WM team was sitting there, but that's another story.
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Grenth spike was so noob :/
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EPT
