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On December 23 2017 00:09 Gahlo wrote:
Unskippable cutscenes are a sign of the times. Fighting is bad if you're bad at fighting. Owl response is perfect because the game wants to make sure you know what to do next so it makes sure you read what he's saying instead of blasting through the text.
You are 100% wrong. And the proof that you are 100% wrong is that all these things were changed in the next iterations of the franchise. If they weren't flaws, why were they changed ?
- that's true. Doesn't make it less of a flaw. They changed it in the next iterations of the franchise, you can now skip cutscenes.
- wrong. I'm great at fighting and I enjoy it. OOT fighting still sucked sometimes because of the sticky targetting and the camera. They fixed these two things in the next iterations of the franchise.
- that was their intention, and that was badly done. It is very, very far from perfect. The text appears very slowly, so you match the A button to try and make it quicker, and then the choice suddenly appear; what often happen is that you select the default option by mistake. They fixed it in the next iterations of the franchise: now you can make the text appear instantly by pressing a button, and there is a small gap when options appear so you don't select them by mistake.
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On December 21 2017 17:07 Laurens wrote:
Unfortunately I'm in the latter category, having played OoT after playing Twilight Princess (and every single handheld zelda), it's a solid last place on my list of best zelda games.
Come on Laurens, this is unnecessarily harsh.
Zelda 2 and Skyward Sword exist.
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On December 22 2017 09:11 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2017 00:43 Dark_Chill wrote:
Graphics aren't really a fair criticism, considering it's been such a long time since its release and 3d even back then looked like ass.
Story is standard. Nothing really special, Sheik was pretty cool.
Combat could be really, really bad sometimes because of the controls (holy shit the camera). I'm not going to post the Sequelitis review, but it is true that the only real thing enemies did apart from do a standard attack was block and wait for a long time. Bosses were all kinda nothing special, do the same strategy three times then win (Twinrova was cool for their mid-transform I guess). Dungeon design was fine too.
OoT is actually okay by today's standards, but there really is no reason to play it unless it's for the purpose of looking back at gaming history. TP blows it out of the water completely in most cases, and Majora's Mask beats it with a stick. Arin "Egoraptor" Hansen is absolute shit at Ocarina of Time. He doesn't even do the very simple stuff like take advantage of the jump slash to deal twice the damage - and that's baby stuff. He thinks the Deku Nuts are useless, but their entire purpose is to stun enemies so you can hit them. He's also completely oblivious about ways to kill enemies using the proper weapons, like using bombs to kill the Moblins on the way to the Forest Temple instead of using the hookshot. There's fast, effective ways to kill things in that game, but they take a little bit to learn. Then there's the slow, easy, safe way of doing it - the only way he knows how to play the game. And that's just a brief take on the combat. He's fucking shit at it.
Okay, for all the criticisms he took, saying "oh well you just played it wrong" is probably one of the worst arguments ever. You know what other game had players taking in those criticisms? Dark Souls. Another game heavily overrated (obviously for different reasons).
Let me clear on something. I referenced a specific thing from the review, about how most of the enemies will have a period of time where they simply can't be attacked, and you're simply waiting for them to attack or prepare an attack.
Saying he played it wrong is weak because you're just completely shutting down someone's opinion on an incredibly arbitrary basis.
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On December 23 2017 00:24 Rels wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2017 00:09 Gahlo wrote:
Unskippable cutscenes are a sign of the times. Fighting is bad if you're bad at fighting. Owl response is perfect because the game wants to make sure you know what to do next so it makes sure you read what he's saying instead of blasting through the text. You are 100% wrong. And the proof that you are 100% wrong is that all these things were changed in the next iterations of the franchise. If they weren't flaws, why were they changed ? - that's true. Doesn't make it less of a flaw. They changed it in the next iterations of the franchise, you can now skip cutscenes. - wrong. I'm great at fighting and I enjoy it. OOT fighting still sucked sometimes because of the sticky targetting and the camera. They fixed these two things in the next iterations of the franchise. - that was their intention, and that was badly done. It is very, very far from perfect. The text appears very slowly, so you match the A button to try and make it quicker, and then the choice suddenly appear; what often happen is that you select the default option by mistake. They fixed it in the next iterations of the franchise: now you can make the text appear instantly by pressing a button, and there is a small gap when options appear so you don't select them by mistake.
If you decide things are flaws because of the change in game paradigm since then, then no game ever looked good that doesn't have stunning 4K graphics. It's not a flaw for a game that is old enough to be going to college to have unskippable cutscenes.
You can turn Z targeting from toggle to hold - this was in Ocarina of Time itself.
You can hold A and get the same text speed up while not blowing through dialogue options.
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On December 23 2017 00:30 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2017 17:07 Laurens wrote:
Unfortunately I'm in the latter category, having played OoT after playing Twilight Princess (and every single handheld zelda), it's a solid last place on my list of best zelda games. Come on Laurens, this is unnecessarily harsh. Zelda 2 and Skyward Sword exist.
I liked SS :p but I can understand why someone hating motion controls wouldn't like it.
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On December 23 2017 00:41 Dark_Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2017 09:11 Gahlo wrote:On December 22 2017 00:43 Dark_Chill wrote:
Graphics aren't really a fair criticism, considering it's been such a long time since its release and 3d even back then looked like ass.
Story is standard. Nothing really special, Sheik was pretty cool.
Combat could be really, really bad sometimes because of the controls (holy shit the camera). I'm not going to post the Sequelitis review, but it is true that the only real thing enemies did apart from do a standard attack was block and wait for a long time. Bosses were all kinda nothing special, do the same strategy three times then win (Twinrova was cool for their mid-transform I guess). Dungeon design was fine too.
OoT is actually okay by today's standards, but there really is no reason to play it unless it's for the purpose of looking back at gaming history. TP blows it out of the water completely in most cases, and Majora's Mask beats it with a stick. Arin "Egoraptor" Hansen is absolute shit at Ocarina of Time. He doesn't even do the very simple stuff like take advantage of the jump slash to deal twice the damage - and that's baby stuff. He thinks the Deku Nuts are useless, but their entire purpose is to stun enemies so you can hit them. He's also completely oblivious about ways to kill enemies using the proper weapons, like using bombs to kill the Moblins on the way to the Forest Temple instead of using the hookshot. There's fast, effective ways to kill things in that game, but they take a little bit to learn. Then there's the slow, easy, safe way of doing it - the only way he knows how to play the game. And that's just a brief take on the combat. He's fucking shit at it. Okay, for all the criticisms he took, saying "oh well you just played it wrong" is probably one of the worst arguments ever. You know what other game had players taking in those criticisms? Dark Souls. Another game heavily overrated (obviously for different reasons). Let me clear on something. I referenced a specific thing from the review, about how most of the enemies will have a period of time where they simply can't be attacked, and you're simply waiting for them to attack or prepare an attack. Saying he played it wrong is weak because you're just completely shutting down someone's opinion on an incredibly arbitrary basis.
How is it arbitrary when the Deku Nuts are a) in the game *specifically to circumvent that* and b) given to you before you even encounter an enemy like that? He cried bullshit because Gerduo have a way to recapture you while you're just turtling behind your shield, yet refuses to use the item that lets him do the same and calls them worthless.
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On December 23 2017 00:52 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2017 00:41 Dark_Chill wrote:On December 22 2017 09:11 Gahlo wrote:On December 22 2017 00:43 Dark_Chill wrote:
Graphics aren't really a fair criticism, considering it's been such a long time since its release and 3d even back then looked like ass.
Story is standard. Nothing really special, Sheik was pretty cool.
Combat could be really, really bad sometimes because of the controls (holy shit the camera). I'm not going to post the Sequelitis review, but it is true that the only real thing enemies did apart from do a standard attack was block and wait for a long time. Bosses were all kinda nothing special, do the same strategy three times then win (Twinrova was cool for their mid-transform I guess). Dungeon design was fine too.
OoT is actually okay by today's standards, but there really is no reason to play it unless it's for the purpose of looking back at gaming history. TP blows it out of the water completely in most cases, and Majora's Mask beats it with a stick. Arin "Egoraptor" Hansen is absolute shit at Ocarina of Time. He doesn't even do the very simple stuff like take advantage of the jump slash to deal twice the damage - and that's baby stuff. He thinks the Deku Nuts are useless, but their entire purpose is to stun enemies so you can hit them. He's also completely oblivious about ways to kill enemies using the proper weapons, like using bombs to kill the Moblins on the way to the Forest Temple instead of using the hookshot. There's fast, effective ways to kill things in that game, but they take a little bit to learn. Then there's the slow, easy, safe way of doing it - the only way he knows how to play the game. And that's just a brief take on the combat. He's fucking shit at it. Okay, for all the criticisms he took, saying "oh well you just played it wrong" is probably one of the worst arguments ever. You know what other game had players taking in those criticisms? Dark Souls. Another game heavily overrated (obviously for different reasons). Let me clear on something. I referenced a specific thing from the review, about how most of the enemies will have a period of time where they simply can't be attacked, and you're simply waiting for them to attack or prepare an attack. Saying he played it wrong is weak because you're just completely shutting down someone's opinion on an incredibly arbitrary basis. How is it arbitrary when the Deku Nuts are a) in the game *specifically to circumvent that* and b) given to you before you even encounter an enemy like that? He cried bullshit because Gerduo have a way to recapture you while you're just turtling behind your shield, yet refuses to use the item that lets him do the same and calls them worthless.
When I was a kid, I loved OoT. That shit was fucking great. I still never used the deku nuts. Was I "playing wrong"? Is there a right way to play the game? I still managed to beat the game, and none of the waiting enemies really posed much of a challenge either way. Someone brought up the jump slash before doing more damage. You wanna know why I used it? It looked cool. Was I playing the game wrong because I was using my tools sub-optimally.
I was DMing for D&D a while ago and I set players up in a tavern to get more info for their upcoming mission. They proceeded to piss off a bunch of locals and not get anything. They were not playing wrong.
It's completely arbitrary where you decide to say "he's not playing right, his opinion is invalid".
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So today I went to a local store thinking I gotta buy some Christmas presents for the family. I found none, but I did end up buying a Nintendo Switch and three games (Mario, Zelda, Mario + Rabbids) for myself. It's the first console I've owned in a very long time.
I already started Mario Odyssey, seems fun so far.
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On December 23 2017 02:13 Dark_Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2017 00:52 Gahlo wrote:On December 23 2017 00:41 Dark_Chill wrote:On December 22 2017 09:11 Gahlo wrote:On December 22 2017 00:43 Dark_Chill wrote:
Graphics aren't really a fair criticism, considering it's been such a long time since its release and 3d even back then looked like ass.
Story is standard. Nothing really special, Sheik was pretty cool.
Combat could be really, really bad sometimes because of the controls (holy shit the camera). I'm not going to post the Sequelitis review, but it is true that the only real thing enemies did apart from do a standard attack was block and wait for a long time. Bosses were all kinda nothing special, do the same strategy three times then win (Twinrova was cool for their mid-transform I guess). Dungeon design was fine too.
OoT is actually okay by today's standards, but there really is no reason to play it unless it's for the purpose of looking back at gaming history. TP blows it out of the water completely in most cases, and Majora's Mask beats it with a stick. Arin "Egoraptor" Hansen is absolute shit at Ocarina of Time. He doesn't even do the very simple stuff like take advantage of the jump slash to deal twice the damage - and that's baby stuff. He thinks the Deku Nuts are useless, but their entire purpose is to stun enemies so you can hit them. He's also completely oblivious about ways to kill enemies using the proper weapons, like using bombs to kill the Moblins on the way to the Forest Temple instead of using the hookshot. There's fast, effective ways to kill things in that game, but they take a little bit to learn. Then there's the slow, easy, safe way of doing it - the only way he knows how to play the game. And that's just a brief take on the combat. He's fucking shit at it. Okay, for all the criticisms he took, saying "oh well you just played it wrong" is probably one of the worst arguments ever. You know what other game had players taking in those criticisms? Dark Souls. Another game heavily overrated (obviously for different reasons). Let me clear on something. I referenced a specific thing from the review, about how most of the enemies will have a period of time where they simply can't be attacked, and you're simply waiting for them to attack or prepare an attack. Saying he played it wrong is weak because you're just completely shutting down someone's opinion on an incredibly arbitrary basis. How is it arbitrary when the Deku Nuts are a) in the game *specifically to circumvent that* and b) given to you before you even encounter an enemy like that? He cried bullshit because Gerduo have a way to recapture you while you're just turtling behind your shield, yet refuses to use the item that lets him do the same and calls them worthless. When I was a kid, I loved OoT. That shit was fucking great. I still never used the deku nuts. Was I "playing wrong"? Is there a right way to play the game? I still managed to beat the game, and none of the waiting enemies really posed much of a challenge either way. Someone brought up the jump slash before doing more damage. You wanna know why I used it? It looked cool. Was I playing the game wrong because I was using my tools sub-optimally. I was DMing for D&D a while ago and I set players up in a tavern to get more info for their upcoming mission. They proceeded to piss off a bunch of locals and not get anything. They were not playing wrong. It's completely arbitrary where you decide to say "he's not playing right, his opinion is invalid".
When you were playing as a kid and loving it, you also weren't giving a critique of the game. You were saying "okay, I had fun." But if you're going to look at the fighting system as a whole and critique it in the same manner as Sequalitis, at least do it from a viewpoint that actually takes the full system into the picture. If you have a certain set of tools and you misuse them, you can't say the system is flawed in the same manner while being credible - it may not be perfect but the ground for the criticism is misinformed.
D&D is a different story entirely. Character motivation has 0 impact on Zelda and if they came back afterwards and said "we felt that was too tough, what gives?" your response would be "You pissed off the locals, who would/could have helped you and made it more difficult for yourself."
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Do we really have a bunch of hipsters in here trying to bash OoT, which is widely lauded as one of, if not the, single greatest game ever made?
I mean yea, mechanical improvements were made throughout the series. Brood War's mechanics are a pain in the ass and make things more difficult just for being more difficult. SC2 significantly improved those mechanics in a number of ways. Yet BW is still miles ahead of SC2 in terms of overall quality, and is also one of the best RTS's ever, even to this day.
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Cricketer12
United States14003 Posts
On December 23 2017 05:01 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Do we really have a bunch of hipsters in here trying to bash OoT, which is widely lauded as one of, if not the, single greatest game ever made?
I mean yea, mechanical improvements were made throughout the series. Brood War's mechanics are a pain in the ass and make things more difficult just for being more difficult. SC2 significantly improved those mechanics in a number of ways. Yet BW is still miles ahead of SC2 in terms of overall quality, and is also one of the best RTS's ever, even to this day.
BW is a bad example. It is relevant today because of it's mechanics.
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On December 23 2017 02:40 Gahlo wrote:
If you have a certain set of tools and you misuse them, you can't say the system is flawed in the same manner while being credible - it may not be perfect but the ground for the criticism is misinformed.
Well, yes and no. Egoraptor's argument is poorly constructed and he fails to make a compelling case against Ocarina. But in a more general sense, how the systems function when fully utilized is only half of how you evaluate gameplay systems. A lot of it is down to how the developers incentivize the player to utilize these systems, and how the gameplay feels at various points along the learning curve. If the game only feels good to play when you've mastered the systems, it's still not very good.
Mario Odyssey, for example, is fantastic in constructing it's levels to accommodate players at all stages of the learning curve with regard to it's controls. The platforming doesn't feel great just because it comes together when you learn everything, but because basically any feasible subset of different techniques a newer player could have learned gives a ton of options for traversal. The player never feels like they have to master everything for the game to be fun to play. They're slowly incentivized to pick up new techniques as they go, while always nonetheless having a massive number of things to do with the moveset they've already mastered.
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Liking or disliking a video game is entirely subjective. Personally, I grew up on the N64, I have 150+ N64 games, and I think OoT is not just the best N64 game created + Show Spoiler + but also that it's one of the best video games ever created, and I continue to play OoT every few years because I think the game is just that good. I love the deep storyline, the graphics are very good for 1998, the controls are intuitive, the soundtrack is phenomenal, etc. Furthermore, OoT is hailed by the video game community and critics as one of the best games of its time and is still remembered fondly as setting the bar for amazing games. All that being said, I don't expect everyone to agree with me (or the mainstream consensus) on which games are the best, are timeless, or even decent.
Some people think that a game is bad or overrated, and they're entitled to their opinion. Who cares? Personally, I just hope that everyone finds a game that makes them feel the way OoT made me feel.
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On December 23 2017 06:12 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2017 02:40 Gahlo wrote:
If you have a certain set of tools and you misuse them, you can't say the system is flawed in the same manner while being credible - it may not be perfect but the ground for the criticism is misinformed.
Well, yes and no. Egoraptor's argument is poorly constructed and he fails to make a compelling case against Ocarina. But in a more general sense, how the systems function when fully utilized is only half of how you evaluate gameplay systems. A lot of it is down to how the developers incentivize the player to utilize these systems, and how the gameplay feels at various points along the learning curve. If the game only feels good to play when you've mastered the systems, it's still not very good. Mario Odyssey, for example, is fantastic in constructing it's levels to accommodate players at all stages of the learning curve with regard to it's controls. The platforming doesn't feel great just because it comes together when you learn everything, but because basically any feasible subset of different techniques a newer player could have learned gives a ton of options for traversal. The player never feels like they have to master everything for the game to be fun to play. They're slowly incentivized to pick up new techniques as they go, while always nonetheless having a massive number of things to do with the moveset they've already mastered.
The problem people have is literally not using one of the first 2 items the game gives you and then complaining about the issue it solves. It would be the same thing as not using the bow/slingshot to kill flying things and instead using the hookshot and complaining that it doesn't hit all the time and flying enemies take too long to kill.
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On December 23 2017 06:12 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2017 02:40 Gahlo wrote:
If you have a certain set of tools and you misuse them, you can't say the system is flawed in the same manner while being credible - it may not be perfect but the ground for the criticism is misinformed.
A lot of it is down to how the developers incentivize the player to utilize these systems, and how the gameplay feels at various points along the learning curve. If the game only feels good to play when you've mastered the systems, it's still not very good.
this right here is my big strike against BOTW. i feel like this is the one thing that it completely sucks at and it primarily points back to a lack of real dungeons to provide a context to use the gameplay systems in.
every single player sandbox suffers from this problem. structure in games isn't a bad thing. it's there to provide the player a reason to play.
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On December 23 2017 00:30 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2017 17:07 Laurens wrote:
Unfortunately I'm in the latter category, having played OoT after playing Twilight Princess (and every single handheld zelda), it's a solid last place on my list of best zelda games. Come on Laurens, this is unnecessarily harsh. Zelda 2 and Skyward Sword exist.
Fair point on Zelda 2, I gave up on that game somewhere after the 2nd palace. The only one I played and didn't complete.
I was pretty disappointed by SS when it came out but it's still better than OoT for me, never had the motion control issues other people seemed to have  Only balancing across tightropes was dumb.
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On December 23 2017 06:12 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2017 02:40 Gahlo wrote:
Mario Odyssey, for example, is fantastic in constructing it's levels to accommodate players at all stages of the learning curve with regard to it's controls. The platforming doesn't feel great just because it comes together when you learn everything, but because basically any feasible subset of different techniques a newer player could have learned gives a ton of options for traversal. The player never feels like they have to master everything for the game to be fun to play. They're slowly incentivized to pick up new techniques as they go, while always nonetheless having a massive number of things to do with the moveset they've already mastered.
After spending more hours than I'd care to admit trying to do Darker Side of the Moon, nope. Compared to the rest of the game the difficulty on that is cranked up out of nowhere.
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It's also post-game, gated behind having 500 moons already, which should be a sign that it doesn't adhere to normal rules for learning curve/progression (as most post-game content doesn't). I'm not sure how it's a reasonable counterexample.
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quick google didn't get me any results on this so I figured I'll just ask in here:
is there a way to post more than just 1 screenshot per message? I know you can link your twitter/facebook and post screenshots without having to transfer right from your switch but with twitter you can post 4 pictures per post, right?
But I don't seem to find any option to add more than just 1 picture on the switch...
Is my only option to get them from the SD card to my phone/laptop and post from there if I want it all in one post?
//Somewhat unrelated but I got Xenoblade Chronicles 2 for Christmas and I like it so far. Only 2 hours in but maaaaan the voice acting is bad sometimes.
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The Switch is the best console ive ever had after the SNES
Yesterday i took a 3 hour plane and was playing a mainline Zelda/Mario game on it.
The Switch doesn't get the spin off or "small" games, it gets the full experience, and i can take it on a plane (or to the bathroom)
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EPT
