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Biff The Understudy
France7914 Posts
Also I still can’t find an invious counter to seaguards early gale. Hate those guys every game a bit more. Finally, Morathi sucks. The AI brings armies with 5 phoenixes and 3 great eagles and tries immediately to snipe her out of the sky. Maybe the whole dark pegasus thing was not such a great idea.. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21905 Posts
On February 02 2018 00:41 Biff The Understudy wrote: Dark elve question: how do you guys use shades, and why would they be so superior to darkshards? Also I still can’t find an invious counter to seaguards early gale. Hate those guys every game a bit more. Finally, Morathi sucks. The AI brings armies with 5 phoenixes and 3 great eagles and tries immediately to snipe her out of the sky. Maybe the whole dark pegasus thing was not such a great idea.. Shades are armor piercing damage, which is huge because of the reduction in normal damage by armor. | ||
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B.I.G.
3251 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7914 Posts
On February 02 2018 00:47 Gorsameth wrote: Shades are armor piercing damage, which is huge because of the reduction in normal damage by armor. Yes but so are dark shards. | ||
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Archeon
3260 Posts
On February 02 2018 00:41 Biff The Understudy wrote: Dark elve question: how do you guys use shades, and why would they be so superior to darkshards? Also I still can’t find an invious counter to seaguards early gale. Hate those guys every game a bit more. Finally, Morathi sucks. The AI brings armies with 5 phoenixes and 3 great eagles and tries immediately to snipe her out of the sky. Maybe the whole dark pegasus thing was not such a great idea.. The main thing with shades is that they've got 50%+ dps more than every other ranged infantry (including darkshards) while dealing 80% AP. In difference to most AP missile infantry they are also archers (and have close to 2x the dps of handgunners and thunderers), which allows them to shoot over walls and over your troops, so no massive line of fire problems which counterbalance those gunpowder units. The fact that they are invisible somewhat counterbalances their lower range (still higher than DS) and they stand tight enough to barrage decently. They are also decent melee combatants and while you should keep them out of melee fights as much as possible, their melee stats aren't bad by any means. They are good enough to melee most archers and Lotherns f.e. if you want to. Which all in all allows for armies like 4 dreadspears, 3 bolt throwers, Lord and 12 shades, which should murder all armies you'll encounter throughout the playthrough at 2/3rds the cost of most t5 armies and will go out with close to zero losses from siege battles. Morathi isn't the strongest LL, but the fastest unit in the game IIRC. If they want to snipe her either kite until you won the ground battle or just fly in circles over your army where your ranged troops should shoot them down. And yes, Shades aren't the best at dealing with Seaguards, they only tie vs shielded ones in ranged combat because of LSGs 55% shield. But the fact that one of the two units takes less than half damage and it's still tied is a telling sign how good shades are. I still use boltthrowers to deal with seaguards or focus other targets at the start, outside of the gates the AI usually doesn't have more than 2 or 3 stacks of them and they aren't more threatening than other archers. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7914 Posts
On February 02 2018 01:42 Archeon wrote: The main thing with shades is that they've got 50%+ dps more than every other ranged infantry (including darkshards) while dealing 80% AP. In difference to most AP missile infantry they are also archers (and have close to 2x the dps of handgunners and thunderers), which allows them to shoot over walls and over your troops, so no massive line of fire problems which counterbalance those gunpowder units. The fact that they are invisible somewhat counterbalances their lower range (still higher than DS) and they stand tight enough to barrage decently. They are also decent melee combatants and while you should keep them out of melee fights as much as possible, their melee stats aren't bad by any means. Which all in all allows for armies like 4 dreadspears, 3 bolt throwers, Lord and 12 shades, which will murder all armies you'll encounter throughout the playthrough at 2/3rds the cost of most t5 armies and will go out with close to zero losses from siege battles. Morathi isn't the strongest LL, but the fastest unit in the game IIRC. If they want to snipe her either kite until you won the ground battle or just fly in circles over your army where your ranged troops should shoot them down. Interesting. What kind of shade do you recommend? Great weapons? | ||
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Archeon
3260 Posts
If you want a more standard melee line add some X-bow-corsairs which are a much better melee unit while still providing ranged dps. I'd only consider great weapons if you don't bring dreadspears or blackguards and are scared of large amounts of shock cavalry/dragons. But don't expect them to perform good in melee vs Chaos knights or dragons, Shades' armor is their major problem. On average it's much cheaper to just have 4-6 lancers than increasing the upkeep of the majority of the army by 15%. And honestly 4 lancers 12 (bare) shades 3 artillery should still deal with ease with pretty much everything especially if you've got Morathi or an Arc to deal with artillery. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7914 Posts
From what I read here and there, they are not really better than dark shards when it comes to simply shooting at stuff. They have higher damage but less models. They are also way more expensive. I guess I'll mix and use shades to sneak around ennemy armies and murder artillery and archers. For simple range support, it looks like DS with shields are a bit better, and perform much better when it comes to skirmisher duels. | ||
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akatama
Romania982 Posts
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Archeon
3260 Posts
On February 02 2018 03:34 Biff The Understudy wrote: Thing is that they are quite good (apparently very good for GW variant) in melee. From what I read here and there, they are not really better than dark shards when it comes to simply shooting at stuff. They have higher damage but less models. They are also way more expensive. I guess I'll mix and use shades to sneak around ennemy armies and murder artillery and archers. For simple range support, it looks like DS with shields are a bit better, and perform much better when it comes to skirmisher duels. Shades have 88% of Shards' models and 47.8% more damage. A full Shades stack is at 204dps compared to 156.4 from shards. They also have slightly more range and slightly more armor-pen % just from base stats. So yes, they are significantly better at simply shooting at stuff. As a result shades are about even to shielded darkshards in skirmisher fights but will fight it out quicker. And yes, price-wise they are a t4 unit and as such shouldn't be rushed. But outside of WE which I can't test they are the best archer/gunmen stack in the game. They aren't just strong because of their gimmicks and versatility, they are strong and have their gimmicks and are versatile. On February 02 2018 01:09 B.I.G. wrote: Should you use shades the same way as sea guard then? LSG are better vs shock cav and worse as archers. But due to their dps you can field armies consisting of mostly Shades and you usually play them like archers if that was the question. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7914 Posts
On February 02 2018 05:32 Archeon wrote: ^which is the reason you usually pair them with anti-large/charge defense vs large, like all archer units. Dreadspears and Blackguard are both rock-solid. Shades have 88% of Shards' models and 47.8% more damage. A full Shades stack is at 204dps compared to 156.4 from shards. They also have slightly more range and slightly more armor-pen % just from base stats. So yes, they are significantly better at simply shooting at stuff. As a result shades are about even to shielded darkshards in skirmisher fights but will fight it out quicker. And yes, price-wise they are a t4 unit and as such shouldn't be rushed. But outside of WE which I can't test they are the best archer/gunmen stack in the game. They aren't just strong because of their gimmicks and versatility, they are strong and have their gimmicks and are versatile. LSG are better vs shock cav and worse as archers. But due to their dps you can field armies consisting of mostly Shades and you usually play them like archers if that was the question. Oh well, I bow to science :-) From what I understand, shades with no upgrade as elite firing squad to support one’s frontline and maybe shades with great weapons as ninja squad to silence hell canons and other shenanigans. | ||
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Archeon
3260 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/w3ZiLJg.jpg) If you don't want that level of micro sth like 4-6 blackguard, 2 hydras/dragons, 8-10 shades and 3 bolt is a strong doom-stack. If vanguard deployment wasn't as bad as it is ninja play would be much more viable. Overall it's much more convenient to snipe artillery with dragons/black arcs/flying Lords than to weaken your deathball with units that might get charged if they don't run fast/wait long enough. | ||
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
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Archeon
3260 Posts
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Latham
9563 Posts
RoR and LoL were OK I guess, for when in a pinch. Now I'm trying to have a go with Tyrion on hard/hard. How do you guys build your legendary lords? I tend to go for route marcher (that sweet 10% IMS on campaign map) and then go hard into Weapon strength and Attack improvements for the lord himself. Backtrack for armor and only then start working on army leader traits. Do any of you go for battle leader (red trait line) and campaign map (blue trait line) instead of focusing on character stats (yellow traits - attack/defense/HP) ofc I pick up mounts whenever I can and the unique traits. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21905 Posts
After that it depends on the faction and LL. Some have the potential to become utter beasts if you go down the yellow line. (like Tyrion). I found Settra to be noticeable weaker in combat and since your army is also weaker then most other factions (at the start esp) I went down the army line for him | ||
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
Blue line has some essential stuff for at least one army (e.g., whoever's gonna be fighting Chaos really needs lightning strike) and some stuff (replenishment) that everyone needs. Magic I try to get as many spells as I can practically use fully upgraded (2-3 per caster depending on arcane conduits in play), beelining for conduit until I get that. Then you can dick around with them and give them whatever (mounts usually important for caster mobility, but it depends on your army's overall mobility). Yellow line to strengthen lords is either (1) spare points to keep them in the fight, (2) buffing up one of the great fighters like Tyrion, Durthu, Grombrindal, etc., (3) as necessary depending on local conditions (e.g. Khalida v.s. vampires early needs to be strong to quickly dispatch lords and watch their armies crumble, or on the other side vamp lords need to be tough). | ||
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Archeon
3260 Posts
Else it's a bit dependent, but I almost always buff army. Having 16 stats more on your basic infantry for 3 points will give you much more value than having 12 attack on a lord that doesnt do much before his mount anyways. Wizardry is decent, but outsourceable and still noticeably weaker than dumping empire soldier's hitrate vs my empire spearmen from 30 to 22% (-25%) and increasing my hitrate from 28 to 36% (+29%). Leveling up the Lord as a fighter is fun, but noticeably weaker imho. Tomb king is a really well made faction imo that incorporates a lot of the things I didn't like about the normal factions. It's finally useful to tech up everywhere, high tier units are really desirable and being at your hero cap feels meaningful. It also feels less bad to try units out because you are stacking multiple high-tier production buildings anyways. Raiding your own territory is still stupidly efficient, but oh well. | ||
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akatama
Romania982 Posts
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