EPTmake sure to stop by 30 minutes early for a lesson on engagements with kDallas!!! more info can be found at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/cs-go/493824-community-guides
Team Liquid Community Nights - Page 33
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The easiest way to participate is to hang out in Teamspeak. (Server is: teamliquid.typefrag.com:5310) North America servers connection info Dallas: New York:European server connection info connect teamliquideu.game.nfoservers.com:27015; password tl Next NA Community Night- Every Saturday at 02:00 GMT (+00:00) | ||
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
make sure to stop by 30 minutes early for a lesson on engagements with kDallas!!! more info can be found at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/cs-go/493824-community-guides | ||
yamato77
11589 Posts
I will wreck these 10-mans. | ||
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Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
gl hf dudes. | ||
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ArtyK
France3144 Posts
On September 05 2015 06:42 dfs wrote: Tryhards. RIP then. It's actually turning out a lot like NA/EU community night, so you're welcome to join without necessarily being part of the "team". It always take some time to even find 10 players so if you can be there at 8pm (tuesday and thursday) maybe we'll be able to start sooner for once x) We usually have the same 6-7 guys each time but the others are often different people switching | ||
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m4gdelen4
United States416 Posts
It was super hard but a refreshing break from solo-queing. | ||
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
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m4gdelen4
United States416 Posts
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drgnak
27 Posts
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Camail
United States1030 Posts
Today was really fun, more people need to come and not give a fuck sometimes. I really enjoy the learning and the standard 10 man but at the end I really like just messing around. Glad I was a part of 2 really sick come backs, we all played really solid. <3 Nagi for not being disappointed in us. | ||
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m4gdelen4
United States416 Posts
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Nagisama
Canada4481 Posts
On September 05 2015 19:37 m4gdelen4 wrote: I missed the lesson before our sesh. Can anybody the lesson into a couple tips? "The whole point of the game is to kill the other guy before he can kill you, therefore, you need to improve on your hand-eye coordination (mouse movement to click heads better), and reaction time (to click heads faster)." "Eventually you're going to hit a skill ceiling based on your hand-eye coordination, you can improve it by working out/doing certain physical activities, and PRACTICE." "Gold Nova+ is basically clicking heads faster than the other person" "DMG+ is basically reacting at clicking heads faster than the other person" "SMFC+ is use of nades and dodging (movement skills) to avoid dying while at the same time trying to kill the other guy faster" "GE+ is team coordination + positioning, so you can kill the other person better than they can kill you" Sorry that's all I remember. | ||
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drgnak
27 Posts
EDIT: Also: Don't obsess over positioning until you can click heads fast. | ||
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Camail
United States1030 Posts
I kinda think that a complete focus on aiming until supreme is rather boring. There are plenty of things to learn as you play, the NA scene is often criticized for focusing too much on aim as a whole anyway. So maybe a caveat is needed anytime the advice above is given. Right now I get the impression that aim is the foundation, then we add on all the other skills like space control, player psychology, timings, teamwork, etc. on top of that. I wan't to question that model and show possible weaknesses. It isn't as important that an alternative is convincingly given, but if you happen to like the more holistic way of thinking that'd be great. The first problem is rather shallow, but important if we're on the topic of educating people and helping them improve. Even simplifying aiming to "clicking heads" can be misguiding to people who are being introduced to levels of play that are higher than the ones they understand, leaving them unable to avoid pitfalls and falling prey to unknown unknowns. They might start trying to rely on flick, taking wide angles, simplifying everything else and making bad habits that are gonna take awhile to break. Which is evident when Adren's most important lesson about aiming is about relying on consistent principles of mouse movement rather than inconsistent skill shots. Practical issues, but not much more than practical issues. This is not directed at the lesson itself, just the summary. However, this next point is. It's not about any specific point made in the lesson, because all the practical advice and concrete examples were spot on (I would expect nothing less). I want to think more about the very first thing you have to do in order to go down the road focused so much on aim. Maybe we are looking at the reduction of csgo mechanics all wrong? Aim is obviously crucial, but it has always left a bad taste in my mouth when we reduce our game to brain dead trigger skills in an effort to distill the fundamentals of the game. If we strip everything down and choose to look at csgo purely as a crosshair on a head, we make a grave mistake. I've learned a lot about competition by playing fighting games, and that community reduces their games in a completely different way from NA csgo. You reduce fighting games to a neutral game, and offense, and a defense, and their are types of players and ways of acting that are baked into the fundamentals of play. Reactions are crucial, combos and max damage are crucial, but that they are not the only two foundational/fundamental properties of fighting games. Footsies are a fundamental skill of fighting games, and they are so much more complex than a simplified mantra of "get your opponents health to zero"; so I think our simplified mantra of "get your opponents health to zero" is rather archaic. The most important thing that I want people to see is the structure of the aim-centric perspective. It is not a strict reduction of csgo and its winning conditions. A true reduction would not come down to merely aiming, we know this because either team can technically win without killing a single person. So it stands to reason that what actually makes you win is by letting the bomber explode within a specific time, or preventing the bomb from exploding in a specific time. This doesn't mean that aim-centric believers are now forced to jettison aim as a fundamental skill. What it means is that there is something else in addition to the simplest win condition that is being considered when you choose to use aim as the foundation. And if that is the case, then the aim-centric belief has no special ground as a reduction of the game's fundamental properties. At the very least this opens up the door for other game properties to become as important as aiming. I'm a much bigger fan of learning each aspect of the game at the same time, or at least as evenly as possible. As your aim gets better you will open up more opportunities in space control so it isn't perfectly even, but this method encourages you not to narrow your education to a single aspect of the game. So I dislike the concept of pushing your physical limits as far as they can go, then going for the brain. If that style of learning clicks for you, or you just want to frag out, sure go ahead. If you put a ton of hours into this game, then the learning is mostly going to come organically; you pick up parts of the game faster than others depending on who you are and what you enjoy doing in the game. So if you like learning smokes, but you're only gn4, then learn why each smoke is good, figure out why timings matter when throwing smokes, learn that part of the game because it interests you. You aren't learning improperly. Maybe you gain a deeper understanding of how people rotate, and how to tell when they rotate and discover their patterns because they react a certain way to the smokes you throw. The fact that your aim hasn't gotten better because of this doesn't mean you have stagnated, you are still a better player regardless of where your aim skill is at. I'd rather have a gn4 that can smoke the bottom of banana from t spawn in 11 seconds than a gn4 who doesn't (I can make a video of my set up for anyone who wants it, it's very forgiving). This is by no means an accusatory post, I don't believe that any of the players involved are aim-fiends that care solely about aim (seeing as how everyone openly agrees that higher skill levels require better game knowledge). This is an open letter to make people think more about how we see our game, and maybe to stimulate discussion about discovering what the fundamental properties actually are, as opposed to holding onto the old food pyramid-esque model where aiming is the only complex carbohydrate. TL;DR - Reducing the foundation of csgo to aim seems drastic and under developed, maybe we don't have to just focus on aim until we get supreme? This is food for thought for both educational methods and overall understanding. | ||
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No0n
United States355 Posts
I would like to just say, I agree that the game is not just about aim. I would suggest learning the skills all together instead of one at a time, but since the lesson was focusing on one area of the game, I think it's fine for the person teaching to put their belief in that aiming being the most important in engagements is a fair conclusion. Personally, though, I don't find that to be the case. | ||
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
That is why in Starcraft you focus on learning macro first, keeping ur money low and having basic build orders. Your ability to drop harass or Vulture micro(and knowing the correct timings for this) pales in comparison to your need to learn how to macro. That is why in Dota you focus on learning the correct item builds and practicing csing first. You can make the right rotations(and mind you this is hard to ''practice'') but if you have no farm or go the incorrect item builds then it doesn't matter. Also I am not even sure why all of this is posted here lmao | ||
Ragnarork
France9034 Posts
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Nagisama
Canada4481 Posts
On September 10 2015 20:00 Kipsate wrote: Also I am not even sure why all of this is posted here lmao Think it's cause I summed up what the lesson thing was in here cause someone asked. But yeah, I agree, aim is one of the most important fundamentals of CS. While I don't think it has to be only aim until supreme, I'd say at least DMG/LE. Until you get to a certain level of aim, you can't execute any strat, or reliably do anything because you simply can't kill the other person before they kill you. Doesn't matter what smokes/flashes you know. If you blind the guy, but still don't have the aim to move out and kill him in the time they're blind, you die. That said, sure "focus only on clicking on heads" is extremely simplified. Aim isn't actually all about flick shots and quick reactions. They help for when things happen unexpectedly, but aim primarily involves crosshair placement, movement, recoil/burst control, and physical practice. Have to develop the muscle memory to make sure your hands can move where you want them to. | ||
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Camail
United States1030 Posts
As you get better at execution (aka aim) the strats you can do open up, the angles you can reliably hold increase and your space control becomes much stronger because you can lockdown areas of the map. That is all true, but I feel like waiting until higher ranks to develop any non-aim skills is equivalent to waiting until you master the English sentence structure before you start writing. Just because you can't execute reliably doesn't mean you should be ignoring everything else. It looks like most people think that there are other fundamental skills than aim, but when you consider that aim is the executional skill, it holds highest importance when you have to decide on which fundamental skills to learn. I'm saying that aim is a fundamental part of the game, and that it is the execution part of the game, but there are principles you can learn along side aim and if they interest a new player I would not admonish them for learning them. Not in spite of aim, or instead of aim. So all of these scenarios where a lack of aim makes all your other skills useless are not relevant to this post. The number of non-aim skills you learn might end up being dictated by your current level of aim, but it would be rather odd for the non-aim skills to have 0 importance until you get to DMG/LE, then all of a sudden they becomes useful. The jump is not THAT drastic. I just want the non-aim skills to have an above 0 relevance to people learning the game. You don't have to be amazing at aiming to understand where to plant the bomb and how to get into crossfire situations. So you might lose 50% of them by being outshot, that does not invalidate the lessons learned. And seeing as this topic is spawned from a community night thing and a post in this thread I still think it's on topic enough to be here. | ||
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Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
I haven't DMed since I first started playing... Just no time + lazy. | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
You dont play expecting to 1 tap USP flick rushing T's regardless of positioning, but damn its nice when it happens. | ||
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