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Laserist
Turkey4269 Posts
On January 29 2015 23:39 -Archangel- wrote: 20 to 30 fps is enough for normal eye to not notice it. This is not true. Human eye couldn't distinct the discontinuity of an on/off visual signal above 25 times per second(basically combine them together) but it is possible to notice the fps difference between 20 to 30 especially if it differs in time. After 30 it becomes increasingly harder to notice and 60+ means the person is lying. | ||
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hariooo
Canada2830 Posts
On January 30 2015 01:34 -Archangel- wrote: Yes, you will notice 20 fps to 60 fps but probably not 30 to 60. Maybe it is different in FPS games. I stopped playing those many years ago. I only play RTS and RPG games now. Most Twitch streams are 30 fps and there is no noticable problems in any games. Also I think it is more noticable if FPS is not constant but goes up/down a lot, even if it does not drop below 30. Videos are not the same as games. Frame timing is not an issue in pre-rendered videos whereas they make all the difference in games which spit out frames in real-time. That's why 60fps video looks smoother than any 60fps game. On January 30 2015 01:49 Laserist wrote: This is not true. Human eye couldn't distinct the discontinuity of an on/off visual signal above 25 times per second(basically combine them together) but it is possible to notice the fps difference between 20 to 30 especially if it differs in time. After 30 it becomes increasingly harder to notice and 60+ means the person is lying. Everyone thinks that until they try a 120hz monitor. You can see it on the desktop. It's obvious. I can do a blind A-B test of it no problem. You're like the kind of person who denies global warming. "Well I don't understand it so everyone else must be lying". | ||
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Ljas
Finland725 Posts
Now there's a link that never goes out of use. Here's another one, so you can see 30 and 60 side by side. Edit: Basically, people are still clinging on to that graph which says the human eye can't see the monitor flickering above 25 or so frames per second, like it's everything that matters in the smoothness of it. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
I played 2v2 with 1 hard AI on my side, 2 on the other and almost only built Beta Commandos (1 supply) to get as many units as possible. Once I got above 100 of them FPS started to go down, with 150 commandos my FPS was down in the 20s. Shouldn't be significant in 1v1s where you don't build 150 commandos, but yeah, there is room for improvement. Then again, I think SC2 also starts to drop in FPS with 150 marines around. Also, Hard AI is too easy. I basically 1v2'd them with pure commandos. Edit: Forgot, I also had all graphic settings maxed. Edit2: Redone the experiment with minimum graphic, no change, so it's CPU bound, not GPU bound. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20342 Posts
On January 30 2015 00:23 ZeromuS wrote: I only played single player so far and I don't notice it, my FPS counter I dont think has ever gone that low? The FPS meter stays higher, but the frametimes are extremely inconsistent so that the perceived experience is worse. That pic has an average of 44fps on meter, yet a very significant portion of frames take longer than 33ms (1/30'th of a second, 30fps) Also yes, I am wondering if most of the slowness is due to the low fps rather than game speed. Even pressing menu has input lag. I have the most problem with dragging the camera using mouse, it's very unresponsive and jerky and i can't really control it effectively You absolutely cannot see the different between 100 and 110 fps you lying liar. Cool, wanna bet? Especially with a side by side video or a toggle switch it's not hard. I don't think it's possible to physically detect anything higher than 125 fps. We can detect smoothness improvements up to well beyond double that. However even at thousands of frames per second, variances in smoothness or input lag are detectable where raw framerate itself is not. I'm used to 60 fps, so that feels smooth enough for me, but when I see people streaming at 125 fps it's almost as if I'm watching something liquid, can't describe it in any other way. You have >60hz screen? Anyway, 100->110 is very, very subtle, but I guess when you have perfect sight (analogous to hearing; the difference between 2 semitones) I guess it's doable. Bad eyesight is mostly measured by inability to focus, especially at certain distances etc (too close or too far) and not really by your ability to process what you see AFAIK. To see a 10% difference in framerate (like 60 to 66) you'd have to know what to look for and be pretty sensitive, but a wider one like a 1.3 - 1.5x gap should be immediately obvious to anyone, even if they have no idea what they're doing or looking for Yes, you will notice 20 fps to 60 fps but probably not 30 to 60 Doubling framerate is a huge difference and if you don't notice 30 to 60 or 60 to 120 with the hardware to display it, you have some kind of problem with the way your brain processes motion. If it bothers you or not is another story. Most Twitch streams are 30 fps and there is no noticable problems in any games. There's a huge difference between media at 30fps and actual gameplay. 30fps on a movie is sampled exactly every 33.33ms, and not at a random assortment of frametimes that average out to be 30 frames per second, which naturally adds a lot of smoothness to the video. You're also not interacting with it at all - which is the biggest point, the input lag and variable input lag or low framerates and highly variable frametimes make it very difficult to do tasks that are easy and fast on better performing games/engines. | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On January 30 2015 02:38 Crownlol wrote: Is there a good comparison for how this game differs from SC2? Like, what are the big selling points? Why should I buy this when I have HoTS installed? It's slower, so even with low APM you can keep up. Resource management is simplified, more akin to Supreme Commander. It's less micro intensive, more army movement than unit movement. The Goo faction is very different to the other 2 factions, far more different than Zerg are different to Protoss and Terran. In general, it's less stressful than SC2 and rewards very different skillsets. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On January 30 2015 02:44 Morfildur wrote: It's slower, so even with low APM you can keep up. Resource management is simplified, more akin to Supreme Commander. It's less micro intensive, more army movement than unit movement. The Goo faction is very different to the other 2 factions, far more different than Zerg are different to Protoss and Terran. In general, it's less stressful than SC2 and rewards very different skillsets. To be more precise with low APM you can keep up in Macro. But if your opponent is microing well and you cannot, you will still lose. You will not get like in sc2 where you opponent has 2x your army but you will still lose engagements. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
Care not to fight trolls too much though. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20342 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xn1wMCI.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TDhwWpH.png) lategame 2v2 vs ai ~ Haswell @4.5ghz, 15% of frames slower than 30fps having a lot of fun, on that one map where you have the two narrow passages in the middle you can extend conduits down to near the middle of the map and build a sea of artillery turrets and it will completely cover both of the passages. I'm not sure if the goo artillery unit outranges those towers, but if not then it'll probably get nerfed because with flying anti-air + vision, i have no idea how to deal with someone who splits the map in half like that :D | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On January 30 2015 05:39 Cyro wrote: lategame 2v2 vs ai ~ Haswell @4.5ghz, 15% of frames slower than 30fps having a lot of fun, on that one map where you have the two narrow passages in the middle you can extend conduits down to near the middle of the map and build a sea of artillery turrets and it will completely cover both of the passages. I'm not sure if the goo artillery unit outranges those towers, but if not then it'll probably get nerfed because with flying anti-air + vision, i have no idea how to deal with someone who splits the map in half like that :D Epic units. 2 Purgers will break through anything. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20342 Posts
On January 30 2015 05:55 -Archangel- wrote: Epic units. 2 Purgers will break through anything. Takes 'em a little while to get there though. I can drop conduit there and make a dozen artillery turrets with very minimal army. This is just speaking from experience against AI though because i have not played ranked multiplayer yet. It's not so much of a "Ha, you can't kill me" as much as an early-midgame "i can invest, arbitrary number, 1k resources - and you'll need like 4k resources worth of stuff to attack either me or my ally unless you bypass it completely somehow". The AI tends to not do that, at least the beta/human AI, which allows you to build a craptop of extractors and then max out with a bunch of epic units and walk over them. I've not played many games though, i only tried that once against med/hard AI (not even 2 hards). Overall i'd say the AI in this game is better than in sc2, but maybe there's some ways that a player could overcome this situation that the AI will just not do. | ||
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Cheren
United States2911 Posts
On January 30 2015 02:06 Ljas wrote: http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm Now there's a link that never goes out of use. Here's another one, so you can see 30 and 60 side by side. Edit: Basically, people are still clinging on to that graph which says the human eye can't see the monitor flickering above 25 or so frames per second, like it's everything that matters in the smoothness of it. Side-by-side is easy to tell, but if I go to twitch, open a random stream, right click on it and click "video playback settings" I find I'll have only guessed the FPS correctly about 70-80% of the time. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
 .Oh well if epic units are on nothing can beat the Purifier that is constantly healed by goo artillery. I love the human base mechanics so much though. To bad they scrapped the idea for the Protoss Cannon. Well unless your not Protoss. Don't have alot of problems with Grey Goo performance wise and I think a few graphics driver updates will increase performance. But I am used to 30 fps and lower, since my computer was usually never high end. Playing at 60 fps for the first time, was like wtf what is this it looks like the game i used to play but everything is handling way better. But so many people talk past each other on the fps discussion anyway. Some are all about the eyes, others are about how a game handles. Cinemas would probably also use more pictures. But 30 pictures is fast enough to make almost every human brain think its fluid. And more pictures would mean more cost per second. Just imagine the poor anime artist that would need to draw 60 pictures per second instead. Anyway selling action games as feeling and looking better in 30 fps is weird at first. But hey if you want to sell good graphics on a weak system, you need to start cutting somewhere. And why in the hell would you spend time on making the game look better for high end computers if the console guys have harder times to pirate something and pay up to 20 euro more. And you can get away with it by starting a silly discussion where all answers can be correct under certain circumstances. Would be less of an issue if there wouldn't be a console war that is won by the lowest console price. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10794 Posts
The few games I tried I obviously built way to much stuff on one base which really messed me up, it seems like a better idea to get as strong of an economy by expanding as much as possible before building any units really is a really good idea. The thing that has me really confused is how many tech upgrades there are, I will have to really take the time to understand all of them. The beta seems like the most simplistic / easiest race to play in this game ( It is funny they remind me of Protoss lol ) . I have only one skirmish so far with the Goo and a few games with the Beta, the Beta seem really really strong so far but I will have to play more to better understand. Can't wait to get home and play more tonight, last night I was only able to stream for an hour and some of that I played a couple missions on the campaign ( I NEVER play campaigns in any RTS games but DAMN the Cinematics and the graphics are AMAZING ! Really blew me away! ) I'll be streaming again tonight for a solid 5-6 hours this time, going to play a few more skirmishes, a few unranked matches, then go ahead and jump into the mass laddering. www.twitch.tv/telecomgaming (Starting at about 12:30 PM EST - 1:00 AM EST to 6-30 AM EST)] I would really love people to watch and give me constructive criticism to help me improve. Hope to see yall tonight...don't worry, I will play through the campaign before starting stream, doesn't seem people want to see that ^^ | ||
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Lambykinz
United States11 Posts
 I really got into RTS games when I first played Age of Empires 2, and then I started playing StarCraft II afterwards. This game however looks a lot different from RTS games I've seen in the past, and the Goo faction in particular is fascinating. Age of Empires 2 has a lot of different civilizations but they only really differ from each other in a few ways, so getting used to the three completely different races in StarCraft II was hard to get used to at first. But this game looks really nice, three wildly different factions, with the Goo being especially different from the others. Gah I really want to play this game, too bad my laptop is not up to handling it...in the meantime however I'm going to devour as much coverage regarding this game as possible so I can get as close as possible to playing it without actually playing it  | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On January 30 2015 07:44 GGzerG wrote: I'm not having any performance issues, It seems that the beta can expand faster than humans or the goo, is this true? And I had this one guy expand like 3-4 vs me in before getting any units (This was in unranked, I don't know how normal this is but he said that he scouted to see I wasn't getting many expansions) and he said that It is normal to expand a few times before building any units, he said he does this every game. (I don't know how good he was but it seems like a good idea) The few games I tried I obviously built way to much stuff on one base which really messed me up, it seems like a better idea to get as strong of an economy by expanding as much as possible before building any units really is a really good idea. The thing that has me really confused is how many tech upgrades there are, I will have to really take the time to understand all of them. The beta seems like the most simplistic / easiest race to play in this game ( It is funny they remind me of Protoss lol ) . I have only one skirmish so far with the Goo and a few games with the Beta, the Beta seem really really strong so far but I will have to play more to better understand. Can't wait to get home and play more tonight, last night I was only able to stream for an hour and some of that I played a couple missions on the campaign ( I NEVER play campaigns in any RTS games but DAMN the Cinematics and the graphics are AMAZING ! Really blew me away! ) I'll be streaming again tonight for a solid 5-6 hours this time, going to play a few more skirmishes, a few unranked matches, then go ahead and jump into the mass laddering. www.twitch.tv/telecomgaming (Starting at about 12:30 PM EST - 1:00 AM EST to 6-30 AM EST)] I would really love people to watch and give me constructive criticism to help me improve. Hope to see yall tonight...don't worry, I will play through the campaign before starting stream, doesn't seem people want to see that ^^ Top players all go 1 refinery than 1 factory and build units most of the time. Good players will rush you if they see 2 or more refinery early. Goo will destroy you each time if you go 2 refinery and they decide to all in (they can park units outside your factory and kill anything that comes out instantly. You can probably get away with 2 refinery on really big or 4 player maps. But meta is still being developed. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
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Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
Can someone recommend a good stream, or perhaps some videos that show decent level gameplay? | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On January 30 2015 08:43 Spaylz wrote: I'm honestly tempted to buy the game just to support the RTS scene. I don't know that I would play it that much. Can someone recommend a good stream, or perhaps some videos that show decent level gameplay? This guy is a Master Terran in sc2. http://www.twitch.tv/kruxxen_ | ||
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