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On November 24 2015 05:07 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 04:01 karazax wrote:
Yeah, but you kill Bastion a few times with Symmetra there is a good chance they change to something else or get stuck out of turret mode for significant amount of time. So that helps take care of Bastion being unfun for me as an opponent. The players picking him must think he is fun on some level or they wouldn't pick him. I suspect he will be a popular and sometimes frustrating to deal with random PUG pick and not see nearly as much play at higher levels where people know his counters well. Kind of like engineer on TF2. I play Tracer because everything else is insanely boring and I make it my business to go take out Bastion, which is pretty easy unless he has his ultimate (and often, even then). I'd say lots of things are unfun about this game though. Any of the other classes I play are slow and feel sluggish. If you die on defense, you have to run for 30 seconds before seeing anything happen (and since the game is so fast paced, 30 seconds feels like 30 minutes). If you're a squishy, Junkrat might kill you "by mistake" with random exploding stuff because they spam like crazy. Reinhardt is inherently bullshit. Symmetra will sometimes just place her little laser turret things and you'll be caught off guard and randomly die. It rarely feels imbalanced, just bullshit. As Tracer, I can safely say I've done things to people... things that would make me ragequit.
If you think Overwatch is spammy or that you have to walk a lot, never play TF2 rofl.
I feel like the randomness of dying felt high when I started playing OW but it has definitely dropped with more experience. But maybe that was because McCree had no damage drop-off when I first started haha.
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On November 24 2015 05:58 paper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 05:07 Djzapz wrote:On November 24 2015 04:01 karazax wrote:
Yeah, but you kill Bastion a few times with Symmetra there is a good chance they change to something else or get stuck out of turret mode for significant amount of time. So that helps take care of Bastion being unfun for me as an opponent. The players picking him must think he is fun on some level or they wouldn't pick him. I suspect he will be a popular and sometimes frustrating to deal with random PUG pick and not see nearly as much play at higher levels where people know his counters well. Kind of like engineer on TF2. I play Tracer because everything else is insanely boring and I make it my business to go take out Bastion, which is pretty easy unless he has his ultimate (and often, even then). I'd say lots of things are unfun about this game though. Any of the other classes I play are slow and feel sluggish. If you die on defense, you have to run for 30 seconds before seeing anything happen (and since the game is so fast paced, 30 seconds feels like 30 minutes). If you're a squishy, Junkrat might kill you "by mistake" with random exploding stuff because they spam like crazy. Reinhardt is inherently bullshit. Symmetra will sometimes just place her little laser turret things and you'll be caught off guard and randomly die. It rarely feels imbalanced, just bullshit. As Tracer, I can safely say I've done things to people... things that would make me ragequit. If you think Overwatch is spammy or that you have to walk a lot, never play TF2 rofl. I feel like the randomness of dying felt high when I started playing OW but it has definitely dropped with more experience. But maybe that was because McCree had no damage drop-off when I first started haha.
I played TF2, I felt the same way about it. I feel more vulnerable to a random junkrat thing as Tracer than I ever did as a scout though. That being said, I'm more of a CS guy, I'm sure experience would help, but certain things cannot be avoided. As for the walking, I don't recall walking that much in TF2. Maybe I was more patient back then.
And McCree sniping may have felt random (I didn't play back then), but at least it's hitscan. It takes some aim... (and luck, considering it's 20 tick)
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On November 24 2015 06:09 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 05:58 paper wrote:On November 24 2015 05:07 Djzapz wrote:On November 24 2015 04:01 karazax wrote:
Yeah, but you kill Bastion a few times with Symmetra there is a good chance they change to something else or get stuck out of turret mode for significant amount of time. So that helps take care of Bastion being unfun for me as an opponent. The players picking him must think he is fun on some level or they wouldn't pick him. I suspect he will be a popular and sometimes frustrating to deal with random PUG pick and not see nearly as much play at higher levels where people know his counters well. Kind of like engineer on TF2. I play Tracer because everything else is insanely boring and I make it my business to go take out Bastion, which is pretty easy unless he has his ultimate (and often, even then). I'd say lots of things are unfun about this game though. Any of the other classes I play are slow and feel sluggish. If you die on defense, you have to run for 30 seconds before seeing anything happen (and since the game is so fast paced, 30 seconds feels like 30 minutes). If you're a squishy, Junkrat might kill you "by mistake" with random exploding stuff because they spam like crazy. Reinhardt is inherently bullshit. Symmetra will sometimes just place her little laser turret things and you'll be caught off guard and randomly die. It rarely feels imbalanced, just bullshit. As Tracer, I can safely say I've done things to people... things that would make me ragequit. If you think Overwatch is spammy or that you have to walk a lot, never play TF2 rofl. I feel like the randomness of dying felt high when I started playing OW but it has definitely dropped with more experience. But maybe that was because McCree had no damage drop-off when I first started haha. I played TF2, I felt the same way about it. I feel more vulnerable to a random junkrat thing as Tracer than I ever did as a scout though. That being said, I'm more of a CS guy, I'm sure experience would help, but certain things cannot be avoided. As for the walking, I don't recall walking that much in TF2. Maybe I was more patient back then. And McCree sniping may have felt random (I didn't play back then), but at least it's hitscan. It takes some aim... (and luck, considering it's 20 tick)
Junkrat is pretty well designed to deal with the slippery heroes like Tracer though. Demoman can't exactly make a Scout stop moving, he just has to get good at airborne pill hits. I would say Tracer is also squishier than Scout as well (although certainly more slippery).
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i feel like bastion gets a ton of attention because he's the most basic example of counterpicking in the game. everyone has played a game where he got a lot of work done and most people have played games where he gets shut down. but every death is an opportunity to tweak your composition. picking up bastion against a comp that you're having trouble against that lacks any "bastion counters" is a good move. this is especially good when you're defending really near your base so you can repel an attack, then go back and switch off bastion, even if you don't die, in anticipation of bastion counters being present in the next enemy push
anyway, my point is that the whole game is supposed to be played like that. bastion is just the simplest most obvious example because when there's no counterplay, he's really strong, and when there is counterplay, he's really weak. this is true of everyone except not as extreme as it is for bastion. so even if you generally find static defense boring, it should be satisfying and fun to recognize an opportunity to pick bastion and to use him effectively and then switch off him. he might not be that fun to actually play, but to be the guy who can recognize the situation where he'll shine and pull him out and execute should be really satisfying.
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On November 23 2015 02:04 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2015 01:50 Jaeger wrote:
The skill cap on almost all the heroes in this game feels so incredibly low. Can you elaborate on that?
Compare Pharah to TF2 solider.
With Pharah I have basically one button that does a vertical rocket jump on the exact same trajectory every time.
Soldier rocket jumping by contract is incredibly nuanced and gives very different jumps depending on the timing angles and surfaces involved (not to even mention duck tapping).
Instead of being limited by a cooldown there is a tradeoff. I can do smaller jumps that leave me with hp to fight, but give up some height advantage distance covered and speed.
I can chain jumps to move me further and faster but arrive with less health and less potential damage (less rockets in clip).
One takes a minute to master, the other takes hundreds of hours.
I can do similar comparisons for pretty much any clone class.
Most of the ults involve limited to zero skill.
Some like the wall hack ult actively lower required skill.
The game is fun, but I'm not sure there is enough here to keep me interested.
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On November 24 2015 06:27 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 06:09 Djzapz wrote:On November 24 2015 05:58 paper wrote:On November 24 2015 05:07 Djzapz wrote:On November 24 2015 04:01 karazax wrote:
Yeah, but you kill Bastion a few times with Symmetra there is a good chance they change to something else or get stuck out of turret mode for significant amount of time. So that helps take care of Bastion being unfun for me as an opponent. The players picking him must think he is fun on some level or they wouldn't pick him. I suspect he will be a popular and sometimes frustrating to deal with random PUG pick and not see nearly as much play at higher levels where people know his counters well. Kind of like engineer on TF2. I play Tracer because everything else is insanely boring and I make it my business to go take out Bastion, which is pretty easy unless he has his ultimate (and often, even then). I'd say lots of things are unfun about this game though. Any of the other classes I play are slow and feel sluggish. If you die on defense, you have to run for 30 seconds before seeing anything happen (and since the game is so fast paced, 30 seconds feels like 30 minutes). If you're a squishy, Junkrat might kill you "by mistake" with random exploding stuff because they spam like crazy. Reinhardt is inherently bullshit. Symmetra will sometimes just place her little laser turret things and you'll be caught off guard and randomly die. It rarely feels imbalanced, just bullshit. As Tracer, I can safely say I've done things to people... things that would make me ragequit. If you think Overwatch is spammy or that you have to walk a lot, never play TF2 rofl. I feel like the randomness of dying felt high when I started playing OW but it has definitely dropped with more experience. But maybe that was because McCree had no damage drop-off when I first started haha. I played TF2, I felt the same way about it. I feel more vulnerable to a random junkrat thing as Tracer than I ever did as a scout though. That being said, I'm more of a CS guy, I'm sure experience would help, but certain things cannot be avoided. As for the walking, I don't recall walking that much in TF2. Maybe I was more patient back then. And McCree sniping may have felt random (I didn't play back then), but at least it's hitscan. It takes some aim... (and luck, considering it's 20 tick) Junkrat is pretty well designed to deal with the slippery heroes like Tracer though. Demoman can't exactly make a Scout stop moving, he just has to get good at airborne pill hits. I would say Tracer is also squishier than Scout as well (although certainly more slippery).
Well the same has happened to me when I was playing McCree, Widowmaker, Reaper and this other stuff. But certainly they're the ones he counters at least in certain specific scenarios - it just makes for frustrating deaths, which are made worse by the long subsequent run.
Now like I said I'm not hugely concerned about balance, I'm just saying there's quite a few cheesy ways to get kills in this game, which is perhaps why I'm a CS player rather than a TF2 player. I like the symmetry and the relative predictability of CS's dynamics. Once you know the game, you more or less know what is possible to do and you can work around it, and from there you die because you get outplayed and there's some element of luck too. Of course after 3 days of Overwatch I won't know the game enough to be any good at it but if you play there's just these things that, especially without an organized team, will just fuck you right up. A guy fiddles around the map, pushes Q, and you've lost the game. Fine. It's still annoying as all fuck.
Killing 5 guys in CS is generally cool. Killing 5-6 guys in Overwatch is often just complete BS. One time as Tracer my sticky bomb killed 4 and I killed the last two after hitting rewind, which betrays some serious mistakes made by the other team, certainly - but it was not skillful of me, I just got insanely lucky. But it did feel pretty amazing, which is what I assume they're going for.
In other words, I just feel like it's blizzard once again going for "massive, massive damage". Finesse and precision are made obsolete by large bombs and big guns. Barring excellent situational awareness (which doesn't happen in MM) your team will get decimated by one guy hitting Q once.
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Holy shit just tried this, so much fun, almost brings me back to the UT2004 days:D
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Ranked mode might not make it till launch...
Yeah Blizzard that is the way to go for sure
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On November 24 2015 08:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Ranked mode might not make it till launch...
Yeah Blizzard that is the way to go for sure
consider the difference is utterly cosmetic. why should we care?
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On November 24 2015 09:06 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 08:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Ranked mode might not make it till launch...
Yeah Blizzard that is the way to go for sure consider the difference is utterly cosmetic. why should we care?
No it's not cosmetic, it would be cosmetic if there would be ANY form of ranking already in place. To see where you stand and if you improve.
There is none though.
So yes i indeed care if it is ready for launch or not 
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On November 24 2015 09:13 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 09:06 Gorsameth wrote:On November 24 2015 08:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Ranked mode might not make it till launch...
Yeah Blizzard that is the way to go for sure consider the difference is utterly cosmetic. why should we care? No it's not cosmetic, it would be cosmetic if there would be ANY form of ranking already in place. To see where you stand and if you improve. There is none though. So yes i indeed care if it is ready for launch or not How did people in UT, Quake and CS ever improve without the blessing of meaningless pub ranks...
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Balance of O & D evens out once you get into higher skill games, when you get people actually picking "good" team comps. Adapting to the situation/ point is important too (e.g. multiple tanks for gibraltar 2nd last CP)
DVA rapes bastion btw. Fly at him with your APM and he can't do shit
I think Reaper needs to be toned down a bit, and also Zenyatta's discord orb should have a duration IMO. pretty dumb to have a wallhack where you can just call a guy out for 10 years
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On November 24 2015 09:21 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 09:13 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 24 2015 09:06 Gorsameth wrote:On November 24 2015 08:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Ranked mode might not make it till launch...
Yeah Blizzard that is the way to go for sure consider the difference is utterly cosmetic. why should we care? No it's not cosmetic, it would be cosmetic if there would be ANY form of ranking already in place. To see where you stand and if you improve. There is none though. So yes i indeed care if it is ready for launch or not How did people in UT, Quake and CS ever improve without the blessing of meaningless pub ranks...
Oh sure, why not make overwatch text based because that was how games did it back in the day!
What a stupid argument
ps: i never said you cannot improve
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On November 24 2015 06:51 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2015 02:04 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 23 2015 01:50 Jaeger wrote:
The skill cap on almost all the heroes in this game feels so incredibly low. Can you elaborate on that? Compare Pharah to TF2 solider. With Pharah I have basically one button that does a vertical rocket jump on the exact same trajectory every time. Soldier rocket jumping by contract is incredibly nuanced and gives very different jumps depending on the timing angles and surfaces involved (not to even mention duck tapping). Instead of being limited by a cooldown there is a tradeoff. I can do smaller jumps that leave me with hp to fight, but give up some height advantage distance covered and speed. I can chain jumps to move me further and faster but arrive with less health and less potential damage (less rockets in clip). One takes a minute to master, the other takes hundreds of hours. I can do similar comparisons for pretty much any clone class. Most of the ults involve limited to zero skill. Some like the wall hack ult actively lower required skill. The game is fun, but I'm not sure there is enough here to keep me interested.
This isn't coL jaeger? Sure you have the movement aspect which has a lot of depth in TF2, but in reality you don't really NEED to be that good at jumping. The better you are, sure, the more variety of things you can do in TF2 (faster rollouts, big skip jumps to catch someone escaping, ctap, edge bug). I'll also say that you have to be more careful with your ammo in TF2 since you reload the whole clip in OW all the time, as opposed to one at a time, but don't forget the splash damage of a rocket in tf2 was the equivalent of a nuclear missile.
Overall a lot of the classes actually require a lot of, sometimes more, than some of the TF2 classes. There's also the part of TF2 where it was extremely stagnant with the standard classes, so many banned unlocks, and you often disadvantaged yourself running anything that isn't the standard 6v6 on a rollout.
EDIT: I could go back and say that TFC (and even QTF) required 10x more skill compared to TF2, but what's the point when they are completely different games?
also lol at the people complaining about 20 tick. Yeah it makes a difference, but don't use it as an excuse for not being very good 
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On November 24 2015 09:13 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 09:06 Gorsameth wrote:On November 24 2015 08:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Ranked mode might not make it till launch...
Yeah Blizzard that is the way to go for sure consider the difference is utterly cosmetic. why should we care? No it's not cosmetic, it would be cosmetic if there would be ANY form of ranking already in place. To see where you stand and if you improve. There is none though. So yes i indeed care if it is ready for launch or not
There is ranking already, your MMR is just hidden and you wont see it.
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On November 24 2015 20:00 DCRed wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 09:13 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 24 2015 09:06 Gorsameth wrote:On November 24 2015 08:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Ranked mode might not make it till launch...
Yeah Blizzard that is the way to go for sure consider the difference is utterly cosmetic. why should we care? No it's not cosmetic, it would be cosmetic if there would be ANY form of ranking already in place. To see where you stand and if you improve. There is none though. So yes i indeed care if it is ready for launch or not There is ranking already, your MMR is just hidden and you wont see it.
Yes i know, doesn't change what i said
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On November 24 2015 07:54 Djzapz wrote:
In other words, I just feel like it's blizzard once again going for "massive, massive damage". Finesse and precision are made obsolete by large bombs and big guns. Barring excellent situational awareness (which doesn't happen in MM) your team will get decimated by one guy hitting Q once.
It's "Terrible, terrible damage!"
Are there even some destructible rocks in this game? Wouldn't feel right if there weren't...
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On November 24 2015 21:49 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 07:54 Djzapz wrote:
In other words, I just feel like it's blizzard once again going for "massive, massive damage". Finesse and precision are made obsolete by large bombs and big guns. Barring excellent situational awareness (which doesn't happen in MM) your team will get decimated by one guy hitting Q once. It's "Terrible, terrible damage!" Are there even some destructible rocks in this game? Wouldn't feel right if there weren't...
Oh right, yeah, massive sounds wrong too. I'm old and senile.
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On November 24 2015 09:21 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 09:13 The_Red_Viper wrote:On November 24 2015 09:06 Gorsameth wrote:On November 24 2015 08:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Ranked mode might not make it till launch...
Yeah Blizzard that is the way to go for sure consider the difference is utterly cosmetic. why should we care? No it's not cosmetic, it would be cosmetic if there would be ANY form of ranking already in place. To see where you stand and if you improve. There is none though. So yes i indeed care if it is ready for launch or not How did people in UT, Quake and CS ever improve without the blessing of meaningless pub ranks...
there was little to no competition
UT also released with ranked stats
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EPT
