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Redox
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany24794 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-07 19:51:37
December 07 2015 19:51 GMT
#2041
Great news I guess. Although I think it was expected that new heroes would be added free as you already paid for the game and having all heroes is essential with how the game works.

That they dont want to add a scoreboard is weird to me though. Never seen a multiplayer fps without it.
Off-season = best season
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-07 19:59:01
December 07 2015 19:57 GMT
#2042
On December 08 2015 04:51 Redox wrote:
Great news I guess. Although I think it was expected that new heroes would be added free as you already paid for the game and having all heroes is essential with how the game works.

That they dont want to add a scoreboard is weird to me though. Never seen a multiplayer fps without it.

I think that is sort of the thought process behind it, that just because it has been done in every other game doesn’t mean it is necessary for theirs. No one builds a fps without one, so how does Blizzard know if its necessary for this game without assuming? Kills are not the metric that victory is achieved in Overwatch, so do people need that information? Even in dota “hero damage” is more accurate metric for who contributed most to team fights. So I get their idea of not including it since its not really measuring anything beyond who scored the last hit on a target.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Redox
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany24794 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-07 20:29:38
December 07 2015 20:23 GMT
#2043
On December 08 2015 04:57 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2015 04:51 Redox wrote:
Great news I guess. Although I think it was expected that new heroes would be added free as you already paid for the game and having all heroes is essential with how the game works.

That they dont want to add a scoreboard is weird to me though. Never seen a multiplayer fps without it.

I think that is sort of the thought process behind it, that just because it has been done in every other game doesn’t mean it is necessary for theirs. No one builds a fps without one, so how does Blizzard know if its necessary for this game without assuming? Kills are not the metric that victory is achieved in Overwatch, so do people need that information? Even in dota “hero damage” is more accurate metric for who contributed most to team fights. So I get their idea of not including it since its not really measuring anything beyond who scored the last hit on a target.

And yet they give you all kind of other information completely randomly with the cards.

Lets face it they are witholding information to not hurt people's feelings when they have to realize they are last on scoreboard. Which is why they are only telling you if you are doing well. Its utterly ridiculous. Ties in nicely with not telling MMR though.
These days multiplayer games are all about not telling you how you are doing in case you could feel bad about it. It is just a sad anti-competitive trend that is apparently culminating in Overwatch.
Off-season = best season
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-07 20:31:18
December 07 2015 20:28 GMT
#2044
On December 08 2015 05:23 Redox wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2015 04:57 Plansix wrote:
On December 08 2015 04:51 Redox wrote:
Great news I guess. Although I think it was expected that new heroes would be added free as you already paid for the game and having all heroes is essential with how the game works.

That they dont want to add a scoreboard is weird to me though. Never seen a multiplayer fps without it.

I think that is sort of the thought process behind it, that just because it has been done in every other game doesn’t mean it is necessary for theirs. No one builds a fps without one, so how does Blizzard know if its necessary for this game without assuming? Kills are not the metric that victory is achieved in Overwatch, so do people need that information? Even in dota “hero damage” is more accurate metric for who contributed most to team fights. So I get their idea of not including it since its not really measuring anything beyond who scored the last hit on a target.

And yet they give you all kind of other information completely randomly with the cards.

Lets face it they are witholding information to not hurt people's feelings when they have to realize they are last on scoreboard. Which is why they are only telling you if you are doing well. Its utterly ridiculous.

Boosting peoples egos with a kill count that doesn't matter when it comes to winning the match also isn't really useful. If they want to tell people how much damage they did, that is cool. And I think it was freely available in the beta after the match was over from reports in this thread. Really the score board isn't useful since there are dedicated healers and tank cases to round out a team.

And lets be clear, you claim that peoples feelings will be hurt by a kill leader board. But right now your feelings are hurt because they won't include it and you want it. The stats are available after the match, but you want other people to see your kills during the match.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Redox
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany24794 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-07 20:49:39
December 07 2015 20:46 GMT
#2045
On December 08 2015 05:28 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2015 05:23 Redox wrote:
On December 08 2015 04:57 Plansix wrote:
On December 08 2015 04:51 Redox wrote:
Great news I guess. Although I think it was expected that new heroes would be added free as you already paid for the game and having all heroes is essential with how the game works.

That they dont want to add a scoreboard is weird to me though. Never seen a multiplayer fps without it.

I think that is sort of the thought process behind it, that just because it has been done in every other game doesn’t mean it is necessary for theirs. No one builds a fps without one, so how does Blizzard know if its necessary for this game without assuming? Kills are not the metric that victory is achieved in Overwatch, so do people need that information? Even in dota “hero damage” is more accurate metric for who contributed most to team fights. So I get their idea of not including it since its not really measuring anything beyond who scored the last hit on a target.

And yet they give you all kind of other information completely randomly with the cards.

Lets face it they are witholding information to not hurt people's feelings when they have to realize they are last on scoreboard. Which is why they are only telling you if you are doing well. Its utterly ridiculous.

And lets be clear, you claim that peoples feelings will be hurt by a kill leader board. But right now your feelings are hurt because they won't include it and you want it. The stats are available after the match, but you want other people to see your kills during the match.

Lets be clear that is nonsense. I could not care less if anyone else can see my scores or not, I want to see them. As it is right now they only tell you your placement if you are top 3, otherwise they dont. How much more obvious does it have to be that this is about not making someone feel bad by witholding information and not about preserving clarity or whatever.

And yes they will tell you absolute dmg/kill numbers after the game. These are rather irrelevant though if you cant compare them to other scores as absolute dmg/kills obviously depend on game time / game pacing. Bottom line is they spam you with a bunch of stats that dont mean anything while trying to conceal how you were actually doing in the game. Then they change your MMR based on the game without telling you anything either.

Btw also heard Seagull complain that they cant really tell in competetive matches how well which character is doing because of missing scores.
Off-season = best season
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9448 Posts
December 07 2015 21:21 GMT
#2046
Really the score board isn't useful since there are dedicated healers and tank cases to round out a team.


I think its about information. As a bit of a side-topic one thing I enjoy about Sc2 is that I after a game can load up a replay, and then exactly see why I lost/won that game and identify further improvements.

With more information you give players the tools to analyze why X happened/didn't happen. And yes sometimes that infromation is a stat that clearly tells you that you didn't accomplish it because one of the teammates sucked. Losing and not knowing why you lose is inheriently more demotivating than losing and knowing why you lost and how you can improve going into the next game.
lestye
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States4243 Posts
December 07 2015 21:26 GMT
#2047
I suppose the issue, is that meters don't tell the whole story. If you lose, they don't want you to look at the damage done and blame the lowest one, they want you to look at what actually happened in the game. Maybe running 6 Zenyatta wasn't a good idea, maybe it was a good idea, but running one in after another mindlessly is the reason, maybe your highest damage guy was doing something completely worthless in regards to objectives, but you don't look at him because he was topping the meters in damage.
"You guys are just edgelords. Embrace your inner weeb desu" -Zergneedsfood
TL+ Member
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 07 2015 21:48 GMT
#2048
On December 08 2015 06:21 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
Really the score board isn't useful since there are dedicated healers and tank cases to round out a team.


I think its about information. As a bit of a side-topic one thing I enjoy about Sc2 is that I after a game can load up a replay, and then exactly see why I lost/won that game and identify further improvements.

With more information you give players the tools to analyze why X happened/didn't happen. And yes sometimes that infromation is a stat that clearly tells you that you didn't accomplish it because one of the teammates sucked. Losing and not knowing why you lose is inheriently more demotivating than losing and knowing why you lost and how you can improve going into the next game.

Information is fine, but it is about where it is presented. They can provide all the data points in the would in the out of match UI for people to comb over. But Blizzard is also making a mass market game that they want everyone to play and they don't think an in-game has enough benefits to outweighs some of the problems it creates in less competitive matches. And that is going to be the vast majority of their player base.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
MoonfireSpam
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom1153 Posts
December 07 2015 21:59 GMT
#2049
Dirty Bomb (Objective based team FPS) hides K/D but does give a score which is more heavily weighted towards objectives, support (ammo / heal / revive) and killstreaks (like 5+) than the odd frag here or there. Seems to be a good middle ground. Can see who is pulling weight and who is being ineffective.

As to how Overwatch plays, it is more like Smite / Heroes (dedicated healers, tanks that don't really kill stuff themselves) or Dirty Bomb / TF2 (everyone can kill stuff but in different ways)?
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9448 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-07 22:28:06
December 07 2015 22:27 GMT
#2050
On December 08 2015 06:48 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2015 06:21 Hider wrote:
Really the score board isn't useful since there are dedicated healers and tank cases to round out a team.


I think its about information. As a bit of a side-topic one thing I enjoy about Sc2 is that I after a game can load up a replay, and then exactly see why I lost/won that game and identify further improvements.

With more information you give players the tools to analyze why X happened/didn't happen. And yes sometimes that infromation is a stat that clearly tells you that you didn't accomplish it because one of the teammates sucked. Losing and not knowing why you lose is inheriently more demotivating than losing and knowing why you lost and how you can improve going into the next game.

Information is fine, but it is about where it is presented. They can provide all the data points in the would in the out of match UI for people to comb over. But Blizzard is also making a mass market game that they want everyone to play and they don't think an in-game has enough benefits to outweighs some of the problems it creates in less competitive matches. And that is going to be the vast majority of their player base.


Kill-death-assist doesn't seem like excessive information for me. I think it could be there for all players when you tab. And yes "toxicity" can happen, but its a lesser evil than being unknowledable about what actually happened. (it's a lesser evil becasue the most succesful games in the world has this - LOL/CS/DOTA, and it doens't prevent them from being very popular).

For instance kill participation can give you information towards if one member of the team just solo'ed/did his own stuff. In that case you know you are playing almost 4v5.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 07 2015 22:39 GMT
#2051
On December 08 2015 07:27 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2015 06:48 Plansix wrote:
On December 08 2015 06:21 Hider wrote:
Really the score board isn't useful since there are dedicated healers and tank cases to round out a team.


I think its about information. As a bit of a side-topic one thing I enjoy about Sc2 is that I after a game can load up a replay, and then exactly see why I lost/won that game and identify further improvements.

With more information you give players the tools to analyze why X happened/didn't happen. And yes sometimes that infromation is a stat that clearly tells you that you didn't accomplish it because one of the teammates sucked. Losing and not knowing why you lose is inheriently more demotivating than losing and knowing why you lost and how you can improve going into the next game.

Information is fine, but it is about where it is presented. They can provide all the data points in the would in the out of match UI for people to comb over. But Blizzard is also making a mass market game that they want everyone to play and they don't think an in-game has enough benefits to outweighs some of the problems it creates in less competitive matches. And that is going to be the vast majority of their player base.


Kill-death-assist doesn't seem like excessive information for me. I think it could be there for all players when you tab. And yes "toxicity" can happen, but its a lesser evil than being unknowledable about what actually happened. (it's a lesser evil becasue the most succesful games in the world has this - LOL/CS/DOTA, and it doens't prevent them from being very popular).

For instance kill participation can give you information towards if one member of the team just solo'ed/did his own stuff. In that case you know you are playing almost 4v5.

The lesser evil for you. For Blizzard, the greatest evil is every person who doesn't buy and play their game because of an aggressive player base. Most people who don't get into multiplayer games cite the other players as the reason why, not the game itself. And for Blizzard, that is a problem they want to solve to attract people to play their game that might not. Competitive FPS players might not like the decision, but Blizzard isn't trying to cater to that market and they have been pretty clear about that.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9448 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-07 22:50:14
December 07 2015 22:49 GMT
#2052
The lesser evil for you. For Blizzard, the greatest evil is every person who doesn't buy and play their game because of an aggressive player base.


Which is why I referred to the most succesful (compettive) games in the world, CS, LOL and Dota. If making the information on who is bad/good available to all was a huge disadvatange, I believe that the above games wouldn't be so succesful.

Further, OW also has an advantage (in terms of minimizing toxicicity) in that the gamelenght is so brief + it's not snowbally. MOBA's are naturally very toxic as one mistake from a teamember can make the playing experience for the other teamembers alot worse over the next 20 minutes.

I think it is better to have a strict system in terms of giving people who flame others warnings/chat-bans rather than preventing them the information.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 07 2015 22:55 GMT
#2053
On December 08 2015 07:49 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
The lesser evil for you. For Blizzard, the greatest evil is every person who doesn't buy and play their game because of an aggressive player base.


Which is why I referred to the most succesful (compettive) games in the world, CS, LOL and Dota. If making the information on who is bad/good available to all was a huge disadvatange, I believe that the above games wouldn't be so succesful.

Further, OW also has an advantage (in terms of minimizing toxicicity) in that the gamelenght is so brief + it's not snowbally. MOBA's are naturally very toxic as one mistake from a teamember can make the playing experience for the other teamembers alot worse over the next 20 minutes.

I think it is better to have a strict system in terms of giving people who flame others warnings/chat-bans rather than preventing them the information.

That is fine, but Blizzard does not see it that way and thinks there are things they can do in game prevent that behavior. And I understand that you see being "competitive" and a road to success. Blizzard has stated several times that is not their focus in this game, but they would be fine if it happened.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
December 07 2015 23:12 GMT
#2054
On December 08 2015 07:49 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
The lesser evil for you. For Blizzard, the greatest evil is every person who doesn't buy and play their game because of an aggressive player base.


Which is why I referred to the most succesful (compettive) games in the world, CS, LOL and Dota. If making the information on who is bad/good available to all was a huge disadvatange, I believe that the above games wouldn't be so succesful.

Further, OW also has an advantage (in terms of minimizing toxicicity) in that the gamelenght is so brief + it's not snowbally. MOBA's are naturally very toxic as one mistake from a teamember can make the playing experience for the other teamembers alot worse over the next 20 minutes.

I think it is better to have a strict system in terms of giving people who flame others warnings/chat-bans rather than preventing them the information.

CS, LOL and DotA were also 3 games that were never designed as "competitive" games. They were designed to be fun.

If the mod makers that created Counter Strike had cared about losing what was in Quake, the "most successful competitive FPS in the world", they wouldn't have made CS.

If the maker of the first DotA game (whether it was AoS onward) cared about keeping what was in SC:BW, the "most successful competitive RTS in the world", they wouldn't have made DotA. Same goes from LoL to DotA.

The only reason you should ever blindly mimic predecessors is when you're making an HD rerelease. Otherwise, live, experiment and learn, and you might make the next bigger game, or at least pave the way for someone else to do it.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9448 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-08 08:41:23
December 08 2015 08:33 GMT
#2055
CS, LOL and DotA were also 3 games that were never designed as "competitive" games. They were designed to be fun.


In this context competitive games is added to differentiate it from a game like Minecraft or singleplayer games. And those games certainly have stuff in them to keep competitive players happy. Like scoreboard and ranked play. Those features were not removed because of the fear of "toxicity".


The only reason you should ever blindly mimic predecessors is when you're making an HD rerelease.


I explained the advantages in a previous post, hence your "blind comment" is incorrect. And yes, you live and learn by analyzing what made other games succesful.

You don't learn at all if you just BLINDLY assumes that minimizing toxicity is the most important design decision.
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
December 08 2015 08:41 GMT
#2056
On December 08 2015 17:33 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
CS, LOL and DotA were also 3 games that were never designed as "competitive" games. They were designed to be fun.


In this context competitive games is added to differentiate it from a game like Minecraft or singleplayer games. And those games certainly have stuff in them to keep competitive players happy.

And besides, your post doesn't really seem to have any point at all. My point was that the fear of toxicity because other people can see your stats isn't particularly problematic because otherwise those games wouldn't have been so big.

The point was that arbitrary things like KDA score screens has absolutely nothing to do with success or failure of games.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Deleted User 55994
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
949 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-10 06:42:12
December 10 2015 06:41 GMT
#2057
Hey guys, I got together with Coolmatt69 - one of the top beta players so far from Team Hubris, the most dominant team in the beta - and after some discussion, we came up with this tier list of all the heroes in competitive gameplay. We're well aware that the competitive scene in this game is still young, but the tournament streams have been getting 1000+ viewers, so I'm sure some people are interested!

Check it out here
Jer99
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada8160 Posts
December 10 2015 11:20 GMT
#2058
The top 6 look about right, they are so strong

I'd move genji up a bit
StrategyTaeJa #1 || @TL_Jer99 || "seeker seeked out his seeking"
HugoBallzak
Profile Joined November 2015
700 Posts
December 11 2015 04:09 GMT
#2059
Damn that lawbreakers game looks waaaaaaay better than overwatch does.
lestye
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States4243 Posts
December 22 2015 11:57 GMT
#2060
Lawbreakers looks really good, I don't think as Overwatch, but it actually looks fun. Every other, team based shooter or whatever we're calling these tf2-like games looks really bad.

I'm probably not going to touch Paladins or the Gearbox or Epic Games game, but I'll probably look into Lawbreakers.

I really enjoy what I've seen from their dev diaries.

The major concerns I have for it, is the Nexon publisher. And want to know more about the free2play business model.
"You guys are just edgelords. Embrace your inner weeb desu" -Zergneedsfood
TL+ Member
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