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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51480 Posts
On November 26 2013 00:19 eLyx wrote:For me it has got definitely something to do with UI mods. When I think back to the way i played in vanilla, where i was one of the top dps in the guild i played in, simply because I read eilitistjerks and knew that for a rogue the ancient core hound gloves from MC were insanely strong because of the +weapon skill even in naxxramas, compared to now where it is just standard at least to me (someone who plays casually and just started raiding normal 10 men with a group of friends and friends of friends), to track your procs and ICDs and line them up with cooldowns, pre pot, pot etc. It has just become normal and part of raiding to inform yourself on how to gear, spec, have a decent UI etc. and I think that as a whole the level of players is higher than in in the past. On a different note, I for one really enjoy the raidcontent of SoO. So far we were able to kill 10 bosses in our first reset with two randoms and downed 11 bosses on wednesday now that we have 10 players (we raid 2 days for 3 hours). Tonight we will try our hand on the last 3, with a little luck we may even be able to clear  . Normal modes definitely are not the most challenging fights, but thats what heroics are for and I think they struck a good balance from what I was able to see so far.
That for me is what WoW is about, its a great social game to play with friends and when your only raiding 2 nights or even days if you raid the weekend instead then the 3hours dont even become a thing. Makes the game even more enjoyable, thats what im glad they are making it Flex mode in the next expansion. Hell the ability to join a guild and for after a week not be able to do a 25man run because you only have 18 players or for you to have a 10man guild and 13 of you want to raid. Just going make Raiding so much fun again.
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On November 26 2013 00:33 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 00:19 eLyx wrote:For me it has got definitely something to do with UI mods. When I think back to the way i played in vanilla, where i was one of the top dps in the guild i played in, simply because I read eilitistjerks and knew that for a rogue the ancient core hound gloves from MC were insanely strong because of the +weapon skill even in naxxramas, compared to now where it is just standard at least to me (someone who plays casually and just started raiding normal 10 men with a group of friends and friends of friends), to track your procs and ICDs and line them up with cooldowns, pre pot, pot etc. It has just become normal and part of raiding to inform yourself on how to gear, spec, have a decent UI etc. and I think that as a whole the level of players is higher than in in the past. On a different note, I for one really enjoy the raidcontent of SoO. So far we were able to kill 10 bosses in our first reset with two randoms and downed 11 bosses on wednesday now that we have 10 players (we raid 2 days for 3 hours). Tonight we will try our hand on the last 3, with a little luck we may even be able to clear . Normal modes definitely are not the most challenging fights, but thats what heroics are for and I think they struck a good balance from what I was able to see so far. That for me is what WoW is about, its a great social game to play with friends and when your only raiding 2 nights or even days if you raid the weekend instead then the 3hours dont even become a thing. Makes the game even more enjoyable, thats what im glad they are making it Flex mode in the next expansion. Hell the ability to join a guild and for after a week not be able to do a 25man run because you only have 18 players or for you to have a 10man guild and 13 of you want to raid. Just going make Raiding so much fun again.
It's absolutely true. I was in a progression guild for most of TBC until the very end, and I loved the hell out of those guys. Will never forget it. The experience of meeting and bonding with that huge group of people was great.
But right before Zul'Aman (yay a new 10 man!) came out, I cut back my playtime a lot for personal reasons, and ended up doing ZA casually with close local friends as well as some pvp buddies we had made (whom I still keep in touch with). It was far and away the most fun I think I've ever had in WoW. The casual, hilarious atmosphere was amazing, and having the confidence to know that everyone was absolutely going to be on top of their shit (a doubt I often had in 25 mans, even in a great progression guild) lightened the mood while ALSO making progress faster. Win-win for sure.
Unfortunately I don't have many personal friends that play the game anymore. But having been there before, I really respect Blizz for the Flex raiding mechanic. From a classical raiding perspective it looks and feels a bit awkward, but if you step back and look at it from a player base / casual perspective, it's such a great idea.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51480 Posts
Yeah and on top of making it a tiny bit more suited for the casuals who can't raid every night it also countered that by making Mystic 20man ONLY mode and a completely new concept for heroic boss fights. End game raiding top guilds going have to look at how they run things now ^_^
What set up will you use ?
2 Tanks for sure
How many healers do you run with? 4? Maybe thats to much maybe to less?
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China6329 Posts
On November 26 2013 00:16 Aixler wrote:
A big part is also the UI/addons and mechanics.
Back in vanilla there was a cap of 16 debuffs.
No threat meter for the first few months, dps meter was there sooner i believe.
No nifty marks, so fights like garr and his adds took more time to setup than to kill.
Threat was a big issue.
Warlock curses giving mobs negative elemental resistance, which often resulted in high crits and agro, leading to the deaths of many casters and sometimes leading to a wipe.
The good old 5 sunder armor rule.
edit: Mana was a big issue, you need healing rotations etc.
Also, hots didnt stack, the strongest hot would override weaker ones.
Raiding vanilla wow works a lot like EverQuest, it's not until BC that WoW's raiding got its own flavor.
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On November 26 2013 01:07 Pandemona wrote:
Yeah and on top of making it a tiny bit more suited for the casuals who can't raid every night it also countered that by making Mystic 20man ONLY mode and a completely new concept for heroic boss fights. End game raiding top guilds going have to look at how they run things now ^_^
What set up will you use ?
2 Tanks for sure
How many healers do you run with? 4? Maybe thats to much maybe to less?
2 tanks 4-5 healers
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On November 26 2013 01:07 Pandemona wrote:
Yeah and on top of making it a tiny bit more suited for the casuals who can't raid every night it also countered that by making Mystic 20man ONLY mode and a completely new concept for heroic boss fights. End game raiding top guilds going have to look at how they run things now ^_^
What set up will you use ?
2 Tanks for sure
How many healers do you run with? 4? Maybe thats to much maybe to less?
I hope they up the Tanknumbers again, so you need 3 and maybe even 4 on some encounters. Would also solve some Tank-shortage problems I think.
As for the Healers, I hope they "fix" healing, I don't know if I am alone in that regard, but I find healing really boring since Cata/MoP, just like they said at Blizzcon "smart heals are too smart right now". If they reduce smart healing you would need more healer (except for some insanely good-playing guilds) for most encounters instead of a priest solo-healing garrosh hc 10man etc.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51480 Posts
Yeah would be good if they bought back some specific raid set up fights again.
They only had one which was Thok heroic was it? Where you needed 6 healers even if you were Method/Blood Legion etc. Need to start throwing in needing 3 tanks etc.
I can understand why they might not want to add this in for say Normal modes but in Heroic modes they need to be tested so have these kind of encounters!
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I see people talking about vanilla but NO ONE from the raiding party mentionned the most... truely epic moment.
The moment... where you had to type /rand for your loot :p
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On November 26 2013 01:53 FFW_Rude wrote:
I see people talking about vanilla but NO ONE from the raiding party mentionned the most... truely epic moment.
The moment... where you had to type /rand for your loot :p
ROLL 1-100, 69 TRUMPS ALL
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On November 26 2013 01:39 Pandemona wrote:
Yeah would be good if they bought back some specific raid set up fights again.
They only had one which was Thok heroic was it? Where you needed 6 healers even if you were Method/Blood Legion etc. Need to start throwing in needing 3 tanks etc.
I can understand why they might not want to add this in for say Normal modes but in Heroic modes they need to be tested so have these kind of encounters!
Specific setup fights just screw over smaller guilds. Those why raid with a roster of 27 for as a 25m guild. No i dont want to go back to that.
As for setups. I think SoO was utterly terrible in that regard. You had Juggernaught where you wanted to bring 6-7 healers. Up to 8 on Thok first kills and then you get 4/5 For spoils and 4 for Norushen/Garrosh. Its all over the place. A guild shouldn't need to bring 8 heals for 1 fight and then bench half of them for the next.
As for healing itself... It feels shit. Im kinda sad i didnt switch my monk to a tank in ToT. There is so much smart healing, and AoE smart healing even that you see raids drop from 100 to 10% in a big aoe ability only to have everyone back to 100 within 2 globals even without major cd's being used. Cd's who have also scaled stupidly well, 8 million healing off a single Druid tranq isnt uncommon and to put it into perspective that heals about 12-13 people full 0 to full off of 1 healer cd. It comes a case of "bring enough raid cd's to cover all major spikes, complain about there being nothing to heal in between".
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On November 26 2013 02:20 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 01:39 Pandemona wrote:
Yeah would be good if they bought back some specific raid set up fights again.
They only had one which was Thok heroic was it? Where you needed 6 healers even if you were Method/Blood Legion etc. Need to start throwing in needing 3 tanks etc.
I can understand why they might not want to add this in for say Normal modes but in Heroic modes they need to be tested so have these kind of encounters! Specific setup fights just screw over smaller guilds. Those why raid with a roster of 27 for as a 25m guild. No i dont want to go back to that. As for setups. I think SoO was utterly terrible in that regard. You had Juggernaught where you wanted to bring 6-7 healers. Up to 8 on Thok first kills and then you get 4/5 For spoils and 4 for Norushen/Garrosh. Its all over the place. A guild shouldn't need to bring 8 heals for 1 fight and then bench half of them for the next. As for healing itself... It feels shit. Im kinda sad i didnt switch my monk to a tank in ToT. There is so much smart healing, and AoE smart healing even that you see raids drop from 100 to 10% in a big aoe ability only to have everyone back to 100 within 2 globals even without major cd's being used. Cd's who have also scaled stupidly well, 8 million healing off a single Druid tranq isnt uncommon and to put it into perspective that heals about 12-13 people full 0 to full off of 1 healer cd. It comes a case of "bring enough raid cd's to cover all major spikes, complain about there being nothing to heal in between".
AoE smart healing is definitely something that Ghostcrawler has talked about extensively on twitter.
I think they realize that MoP has been bad in that area. This is something I hope WoD addresses.
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Jeez I really kicked off quite the debate in this thread, anyway I take it back WoW raids are challenging, gawsh. I haven't done any of the MoP ones so I'll find out soon enough.
On November 26 2013 00:19 eLyx wrote:
For me it has got definitely something to do with UI mods. When I think back to the way i played in vanilla, where i was one of the top dps in the guild i played in, simply because I read eilitistjerks and knew that for a rogue the ancient core hound gloves from MC were insanely strong because of the +weapon skill even in naxxramas, compared to now where it is just standard at least to me (someone who plays casually and just started raiding normal 10 men with a group of friends and friends of friends), to track your procs and ICDs and line them up with cooldowns, pre pot, pot etc.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pQLGExT.jpg)
My first ever epic, none of the other rogues in my guild want to use DKP on them because they had +strength and wanted to save pts for nightslayer. That with a core hound tooth offhand and I was top of the meters for quite a while. Made it all the way through BWL and part of AQ40 but never to Naxx.
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On November 26 2013 01:53 FFW_Rude wrote:
I see people talking about vanilla but NO ONE from the raiding party mentionned the most... truely epic moment.
The moment... where you had to type /rand for your loot :p
Don't get me started on the stupid rolling mechanic. I tell you, shit was rigged. We had one guy who ALWAYS rolled 80+. I'm not even joking. We had 4 people who were eligible for Shadowmourne in ICC and the fucker immediately rolled 100. I hate this guy so much, ugh.
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On November 27 2013 00:40 hootsushi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 01:53 FFW_Rude wrote:
I see people talking about vanilla but NO ONE from the raiding party mentionned the most... truely epic moment.
The moment... where you had to type /rand for your loot :p Don't get me started on the stupid rolling mechanic. I tell you, shit was rigged. We had one guy who ALWAYS rolled 80+. I'm not even joking. We had 4 people who were eligible for Shadowmourne in ICC and the fucker immediately rolled 100. I hate this guy so much, ugh.
Because he typed /rand 80-100 :p
I had a friend that had ALWAYS awesom luck. Like he would pull a 100 while you had one...
Ok let's roll again. He rolls something like 11 et i roll 5. Damnit !
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On November 27 2013 00:40 hootsushi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 01:53 FFW_Rude wrote:
I see people talking about vanilla but NO ONE from the raiding party mentionned the most... truely epic moment.
The moment... where you had to type /rand for your loot :p Don't get me started on the stupid rolling mechanic. I tell you, shit was rigged. We had one guy who ALWAYS rolled 80+. I'm not even joking. We had 4 people who were eligible for Shadowmourne in ICC and the fucker immediately rolled 100. I hate this guy so much, ugh.
Ahaha, I remember some LOOOOOOOONG and heated debates we had about what DKP to use on the forum. We had some seriously university-level discussions on the economic aspects and how to make it fair and quick  Things like Pareto-optimality of various different auction mechanisms came into it
I switched guilds in TBC and that guild used EPGP, with the automated addon. Man, that was far far simpler than our DKP crap :D
Nobody liked /random'ing tho. Before my guild in Vanilla got together properly and was able to raid MC on a semi-serious basis, I ran some random raids, put together by the premiere guild on the server (they ran it to gather the mats, but had no need for the gear, due to having BWL on farm). There we always had to /random for the loot... such a tense moment, lol!
Also, I will NEVER forgive the mages who stole my pants from Baron fucking Rivendare. I had to run Strath Dead about 50 times to finally get my set complete. Of course, that came in useful for the T1.5 speed run: I knew every nook and cranny of the place!
It was easier to get my boots (I think it was boots, anyway, but could have been some other part) off the optional boss in Scholo, that every sensible group skipped, than the pants... so lame.
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I hope they fix world PvP. I got frustrated whenever I started MoP in january for two months. I got to 496 iLevel and even at that point I could not kill an AFK Warlock as a prot Warrior. I also hope that they remove the "active mitigation" for prot Warriors (Only class I play) because I find it boring to have to use Shield Block every 6 seconds. The Shield Barrier also barely feels like a choice, because if it's magic damage you go with Barrier, otherwise you go with Block.
I'm happy they're removing reforging, though I dislike the gems/enchants reduction. I hate "customizing" stuff in games in general, but I've always felt that gems provided enough customization in order to balance out your gear and get the stats you might be missing. Reforging took that to the extreme and was just a horrible idea because of how you had to reoptimize your gear every single time you got a new piece or wanted to test out just a little bit more crit instead of mastery, etc etc...
For gearing, I hope that they allow the previous tier of LFR to push you into current tier normal. Right now as a tank, the damage is way too big of a jump in order for a tank to go from the previous tier's LFR into the current tier's normal raid.
Lastly, I hope they denormalize rage again. I personally loved how well Warriors scaled in the end of an expansion, it just felt like you were actually progressing as the expansion developed due to all the new stuff you could use as fillers... Oh and remove all the RNG in the rotation or at least put in some filler abilities for Fury so that I'm not stuck waiting for Raging Blow / Wild Strike procs. Thanks.
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On November 27 2013 00:57 2WeaK wrote:
I hope they fix world PvP. I got frustrated whenever I started MoP in january for two months. I got to 496 iLevel and even at that point I could not kill an AFK Warlock as a prot Warrior. I also hope that they remove the "active mitigation" for prot Warriors (Only class I play) because I find it boring to have to use Shield Block every 6 seconds. The Shield Barrier also barely feels like a choice, because if it's magic damage you go with Barrier, otherwise you go with Block.
I'm happy they're removing reforging, though I dislike the gems/enchants reduction. I hate "customizing" stuff in games in general, but I've always felt that gems provided enough customization in order to balance out your gear and get the stats you might be missing. Reforging took that to the extreme and was just a horrible idea because of how you had to reoptimize your gear every single time you got a new piece or wanted to test out just a little bit more crit instead of mastery, etc etc...
For gearing, I hope that they allow the previous tier of LFR to push you into current tier normal. Right now as a tank, the damage is way too big of a jump in order for a tank to go from the previous tier's LFR into the current tier's normal raid.
Lastly, I hope they denormalize rage again. I personally loved how well Warriors scaled in the end of an expansion, it just felt like you were actually progressing as the expansion developed due to all the new stuff you could use as fillers... Oh and remove all the RNG in the rotation or at least put in some filler abilities for Fury so that I'm not stuck waiting for Raging Blow / Wild Strike procs. Thanks.
No active mitigation will not go away.
No world pvp will never be fixed
Prev Tier LFR is already fine for doing current tier normals.
And no rage will not be denomalized. How is having warriors being useless for the first half and then OP for the second half ever a good design. Because that was the problem before.
RNG will not be removed from any rotation because else your back to cast sequence macro's instead of any decision making.
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On November 27 2013 01:06 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2013 00:57 2WeaK wrote:
I hope they fix world PvP. I got frustrated whenever I started MoP in january for two months. I got to 496 iLevel and even at that point I could not kill an AFK Warlock as a prot Warrior. I also hope that they remove the "active mitigation" for prot Warriors (Only class I play) because I find it boring to have to use Shield Block every 6 seconds. The Shield Barrier also barely feels like a choice, because if it's magic damage you go with Barrier, otherwise you go with Block.
I'm happy they're removing reforging, though I dislike the gems/enchants reduction. I hate "customizing" stuff in games in general, but I've always felt that gems provided enough customization in order to balance out your gear and get the stats you might be missing. Reforging took that to the extreme and was just a horrible idea because of how you had to reoptimize your gear every single time you got a new piece or wanted to test out just a little bit more crit instead of mastery, etc etc...
For gearing, I hope that they allow the previous tier of LFR to push you into current tier normal. Right now as a tank, the damage is way too big of a jump in order for a tank to go from the previous tier's LFR into the current tier's normal raid.
Lastly, I hope they denormalize rage again. I personally loved how well Warriors scaled in the end of an expansion, it just felt like you were actually progressing as the expansion developed due to all the new stuff you could use as fillers... Oh and remove all the RNG in the rotation or at least put in some filler abilities for Fury so that I'm not stuck waiting for Raging Blow / Wild Strike procs. Thanks. No active mitigation will not go away.
When I said "Active Mitigation" what I meant was that sure, you have to physically press Shield Block to activate it, but you're forced to use it on physical fights as soon as the previous one is fading (on a 6 second cooldown). Which is why in WOTLK they decided to make Shield Block a 40second CD, because it wasn't fun to press it every 6 seconds otherwise you're doing it wrong.
No world pvp will never be fixed
I just want to be able to kill a player... Sure, PvP gear should offer an advantage, but it's not normal to not being able to kill someone as a tank... Is it really asking too much?
Prev Tier LFR is already fine for doing current tier normals.
Have you tried to tank 10m normal content? Healers will complain because you practically die in 2-3 hits. Though that might be because Warrior tanks aren't that great.
And no rage will not be denomalized. How is having warriors being useless for the first half and then OP for the second half ever a good design. Because that was the problem before.
They don't have to be useless, just offer minimum rage to fulfill a rotation and then go full berserk is fun as opposed to never changing your rotation ever when the mechanic of your class is that you build your resource bar. It feels lack luster. Also taking damage to generate rage should still be a part of the tanks rage income... Not as much as before, but getting a little bit of something would be nice.
RNG will not be removed from any rotation because else your back to cast sequence macro's instead of any decision making.
So you're telling me that Fury Warriors should only be able to hit Bloodthirst unless they get a crit / a 20% proc off of bloodthirst? Talk about a fun mechanic. Also the crit part is pretty much the same as rage being denormalized... You rarely crit early in the expansion but late expansion your crit rate goes up very high. Fury is boring as hell to play early in the expansion because you're pressing 1 button every 4.5 seconds most of the time.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51480 Posts
Warrior tanking is so different to what it was. Hell on my mage i have a bout 6-8 buttons i might press at any raid fight, i switched my warrior back to tank (my original character and one i start every expansion doing (tanking)) and boy there is atleast like 20 active buttons you need to be using or use in a raid situation.
From having all 3 banners being used
Thunderclap - cleave - shield slam - shield block - shield barrier - heroic strike - sunder armor - revenge - shattering throw - heroic throw
Then you add in the cooldowns,
Trinkets if proc ones - demoralizing shout - battle/commanding shout - shield wall - recklessness - your defensive you pick from talent - last stand - rallying cry for raid cooldown - beserker rage
It is quite many for Warrior what i found compared to my Mage for example and i even play Fire as well so it is a bit more entertaining xD
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On November 27 2013 01:06 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2013 00:57 2WeaK wrote:
I hope they fix world PvP. I got frustrated whenever I started MoP in january for two months. I got to 496 iLevel and even at that point I could not kill an AFK Warlock as a prot Warrior. I also hope that they remove the "active mitigation" for prot Warriors (Only class I play) because I find it boring to have to use Shield Block every 6 seconds. The Shield Barrier also barely feels like a choice, because if it's magic damage you go with Barrier, otherwise you go with Block.
I'm happy they're removing reforging, though I dislike the gems/enchants reduction. I hate "customizing" stuff in games in general, but I've always felt that gems provided enough customization in order to balance out your gear and get the stats you might be missing. Reforging took that to the extreme and was just a horrible idea because of how you had to reoptimize your gear every single time you got a new piece or wanted to test out just a little bit more crit instead of mastery, etc etc...
For gearing, I hope that they allow the previous tier of LFR to push you into current tier normal. Right now as a tank, the damage is way too big of a jump in order for a tank to go from the previous tier's LFR into the current tier's normal raid.
Lastly, I hope they denormalize rage again. I personally loved how well Warriors scaled in the end of an expansion, it just felt like you were actually progressing as the expansion developed due to all the new stuff you could use as fillers... Oh and remove all the RNG in the rotation or at least put in some filler abilities for Fury so that I'm not stuck waiting for Raging Blow / Wild Strike procs. Thanks. No active mitigation will not go away. No world pvp will never be fixed Prev Tier LFR is already fine for doing current tier normals. And no rage will not be denomalized. How is having warriors being useless for the first half and then OP for the second half ever a good design. Because that was the problem before. RNG will not be removed from any rotation because else your back to cast sequence macro's instead of any decision making.
I haven't raided in Cata nor even played in MoP, but from what I am seeing of the warlock tech tree, they have made it far far easier to apply DoTs, but added some RNG stuff to ensure you still have to pay attention. I thought it was pretty good at the end of Wrath for an Affliction warlock: different DoT durations, haunt cooldown and a small bit of RNG from nightfall procs (assuming you spec'd it). Worked pretty well to keep you busy and impossible to just macro up.
Insofar as I know, dps feral druids had an even more complicated "rotation" that wasn't based on random procs. So complicated rotations don't HAVE to be built around random procs. Making different duration cooldowns, cast times and uptime durations worked quite well to make it both predictable and complicated enough that you have to keep paying attention.
And if the problem is that you have to pay attention to a timer mod rather than watching the pretty graphics, that will NEVER change. The pretty graphics are only important when you are standing in the fire (dumbass, fucking raid wiping noob, etc.  )
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