On February 22 2013 08:05 Noocta wrote: Macros didn't have that much of an impact on PvP. They're still global cooldown that prevent you from using multiple abilities at the same time. I've played Arenas and PvP for multiple years and the only time it became problematic ( macros that allow pets to kill shaman's totem on their own, or auto counterspelling ) it got fixed pretty quickly.
In my opinion, when you put fair limitations on them, macros give the game more depth.
If macros didn't have that much of an impact on PvP, don't you think they would allow it in games like sc2? And how can macro gives more depth to the game when its only there to dumb down the gameplay to a point where you don't need 30 hotkeys for you abilities but just like 4 or 5? That doesn't make any sense to me.
On February 22 2013 08:36 Manit0u wrote: Since when? I was playing the game for months, had great fun with it so I decided to purchase it to show my appreciation. Looking at the items I got after purchase (and a list of available items you can pay for with irl money) didn't really make any difference on the gameplay. Sure, you get some minibuffs but it's nothing gamebreaking and certainly nothing that can't be countered with wits and skill. I guess it might matter at the toppest of top levels, where you have to be godlike to even be considered a competitor, but it's going to be a while before anyone new gets there anyway.
It's all about skill really, all the p2w items help you by making you kill someone in 5 hits instead of 7 while experienced people can kill you in 3 hits even without the items. Oh, and the fact that if you pay you get access to Hellbourne (OP) units? Being able to 1-shot anyone and having a shitton of hp doesn't mean much when you discover you can be soloed by someone playing worker (consider scv killing ultralisk solo).
Well if you think having items that boost your HP by 15%, HP regen by 15% and increased melee damage isnt P2W (and that's only one of them, im pretty sure you can have more that 1 at once), then I guess P2W doesn't even exist in any games. Sure some skilled guy will beat the unskilled one who has P2W items, but both on the same level, the one who's paying will beat the one who doesn't every single time.
On February 22 2013 09:42 Godwrath wrote: I am comparing to other MMORPGs. And yes, that's MMORPGs fault for the most part. And fuck TAB. You are not even speaking about age of conan combo skipping. You should define what skill means for you, mechanically speaking, EVERY SINGLE MMORPG is easy as fuck, mostly due to GCDs an zero aim. Tab target is idiotic how in the hell can you compare swinging combo's to a moving/strafing target to tabbing. Amazing to read this stupidity.
It might be stupid for you, but its stupid for me to think that standing near a target and swinging your weapon without having to perfectly aim all the time your swing makes it much more difficult to play. I'm not speaking about AoC because I've never played it. I agree with you, every single MMORPG is easy as hell, just because you put a mechanic that need you to "aim" your target without the need to be precise is as dumb as a tab target game IMO. You just get close to your target, hit your attack and that's it. How's that much much more difficult? Especially when you consider that your aim doesn't even need to be on the target and it will still hit him. It's a different gameplay, but not much harder one, at least when it comes to melee combat, ranged is a different story. Its a bit harder than melee, but it still isn't as precise as an FPS game.
Funny thing is, you think what I've said is stupid but you can even give me a good reason as to why you think Darkfall combat was good and with a high skill ceiling. That is some real stupidity if you ask me.
On February 22 2013 10:34 Ighox wrote: I think it's pretty obvious you just read about the game on MMORPG.com or something and didn't actually play it. There were definitely periods that had large imbalances, like cycling r90 nukes and instant-rays and that wasn't really that good PvP, but generally it took a lot of skill to be at the top of the food chain.
I didn't actually played it sure, but I've watch enough videos of "good PvP" of it and did some research (because I actually wanted to play) to understand how lame the game was. If the PvP was really that good, the game would've have a lot more players and they wouldn't shut down the original to release a new dumb down version of the original. The game looked great, until I saw some stupid mechanics such as mana to stamina conversion, knockback and etc. Looking at the melee combat made me lol. People not even aiming the target and still hitting it. Same with the spells (but I guess that was with magnitude, something to make spells more easy to land *high skill ceiling?*). Laughable for me really. If you're going to add aiming in a MMO, at least do it right, not some crappy aiming that doesn't required any precision. What's the point of aiming if you can aim 2 feet away from the target and still it him? Would that be good in a FPS game? Nope. And that's my point on this. Not everyone will agree with me but its ok.
On February 22 2013 05:26 Redox wrote: Yeah I know hating on WoW is popular, but there is still nothing that comes close to it.
I agree with this.. Sipping hatorade and bashing WoW seems to be in style, but the game is legit PvP, far greater than most of the games mentioned. There is something to be said for the smoothness of the way a game plays, and no one has ever came close to WoW in that regard.
Because NCsoft brings all their games from korea. This is how all games look in korea. Don't really see what's wrong with it honestly. The game will probably fail though. NCsoft sucks as a company.
On February 22 2013 07:14 zbedlam wrote: @WoW, it has the highest personal skill ceiling out of all MMO's on the market, at least last time I checked which was pre wotlk, and its not like MMO's have been made any harder since then. Thanks to WoW almost every MMO release has more hand holding than a daycare center, which is why there aren't many PvP MMO's on the market.
WoW doesn't have the highest personal skill ceiling... Its not any different than most MMO. Especially when you consider people using macro that bind everything they need on 4 hotkeys. Having macro in any games dumb down the skill ceiling a huge amount IMO. Everyone can spam 4 abilities with macros, not everyone can hit the right key at the right time while having 30 different skills/abilities. Get rid of the macro in WoW and I would maybe agree with you in this one. Also now, WoW PvP is the worst I've seen in a while, the game was wayyyy better before.
Macros had very little effect on WoW PvP.
The main macros that had an effect on gameplay were like popping trinket+offensive cooldown at same time.
In fact, Macros generally increased keybindings as there was a macro to cast a heal/cleanse each individual party member.
Any1 that was using only 4 hotkeys for WoW PvP was either doing it really really wrong, or playing a ret paladin.
Also, the main difference between WoW and SC2 is that WoW had a global cooldown, SC2 did not.
In WoW you have to make the decision every GCD to do something, whereas in SC2 theres a set of things that you want to all be done at the same time, and you are limited by what you physically can do. Did you ever even arena in WoW?
On February 22 2013 07:14 zbedlam wrote: @WoW, it has the highest personal skill ceiling out of all MMO's on the market, at least last time I checked which was pre wotlk, and its not like MMO's have been made any harder since then. Thanks to WoW almost every MMO release has more hand holding than a daycare center, which is why there aren't many PvP MMO's on the market.
WoW doesn't have the highest personal skill ceiling... Its not any different than most MMO. Especially when you consider people using macro that bind everything they need on 4 hotkeys. Having macro in any games dumb down the skill ceiling a huge amount IMO. Everyone can spam 4 abilities with macros, not everyone can hit the right key at the right time while having 30 different skills/abilities. Get rid of the macro in WoW and I would maybe agree with you in this one. Also now, WoW PvP is the worst I've seen in a while, the game was wayyyy better before.
Macros had very little effect on WoW PvP.
The main macros that had an effect on gameplay were like popping trinket+offensive cooldown at same time.
In fact, Macros generally increased keybindings as there was a macro to cast a heal/cleanse each individual party member.
Any1 that was using only 4 hotkeys for WoW PvP was either doing it really really wrong, or playing a ret paladin.
Also, the main difference between WoW and SC2 is that WoW had a global cooldown, SC2 did not.
In WoW you have to make the decision every GCD to do something, whereas in SC2 theres a set of things that you want to all be done at the same time, and you are limited by what you physically can do. Did you ever even arena in WoW?
You're admitting in this post that macros = less key presses which in turn = less skill. If I can push one button and it hits three or four consecutively for me, then that's reducing the skill level. Macros reduced keybindings because now you didn't have 4 bars full of shit you don't use, you just have one full of macros. There's no point in me putting skills on my skillbar when I have macros that cast it for me. People do that shit to look like they have tons of usable skills.
Let's be honest about it. Even with a few macro, WoW arenas request atleast 20 buttons per classes. Most of the time macro were used to have quicker targeting. ( for healing teamate, for controling or counterspelling )
There was no " I hit my macro and 4 of my spell go off on their own" macro in this game.
On February 22 2013 13:19 Noocta wrote: Let's be honest about it. Even with a few macro, WoW arenas request atleast 20 buttons per classes. Most of the time macro were used to have quicker targeting. ( for healing teamate, for controling or counterspelling )
There was no " I hit my macro and 4 of my spell go off on their own" macro in this game.
Have you seen an arena lately? It takes an hour for someone to die. The regen rates are completely through the roof. The hp and mana pools are so large you might as well not even have them on the screen.
On February 22 2013 13:19 Noocta wrote: Let's be honest about it. Even with a few macro, WoW arenas request atleast 20 buttons per classes. Most of the time macro were used to have quicker targeting. ( for healing teamate, for controling or counterspelling )
There was no " I hit my macro and 4 of my spell go off on their own" macro in this game.
Have you seen an arena lately? It takes an hour for someone to die. The regen rates are completely through the roof. The hp and mana pools are so large you might as well not even have them on the screen.
Yeah I get that. Most of the people here are talking about TBC / WotLK Arenas anyway. ( I personnaly stopped right after Cataclysm ) WoW PvP have gone to shit in the last expansions.
On February 22 2013 13:19 Noocta wrote: Let's be honest about it. Even with a few macro, WoW arenas request atleast 20 buttons per classes. Most of the time macro were used to have quicker targeting. ( for healing teamate, for controling or counterspelling )
There was no " I hit my macro and 4 of my spell go off on their own" macro in this game.
Have you seen an arena lately? It takes an hour for someone to die. The regen rates are completely through the roof. The hp and mana pools are so large you might as well not even have them on the screen.
I stopped playing WoW around the end of WotLK, and I remember how people complained all the time about getting instagibbed by destro locks + bloodlust, etc.
I just wish there was an MMO where party / raid fights didn't just involve heal-tank-wank, but had something more dynamic. I hate sitting behind a scaled-up, 12-foot-tall bad guy with weird collision, poking him in the ass with 1234 while dodging his farts.
I'd also like for there to be none of this arbitrary level / gear difference crap, and more emphasis on world-pvp, maybe some kind of territory-control thing. I don't want to murder robots for 120 hours before I can queue up to join instances- and nothing else.
Also, if I wanted to play PvP in a boxed tournament setting, I'd go play this instead:
On February 22 2013 13:19 Noocta wrote: Let's be honest about it. Even with a few macro, WoW arenas request atleast 20 buttons per classes. Most of the time macro were used to have quicker targeting. ( for healing teamate, for controling or counterspelling )
There was no " I hit my macro and 4 of my spell go off on their own" macro in this game.
Have you seen an arena lately? It takes an hour for someone to die. The regen rates are completely through the roof. The hp and mana pools are so large you might as well not even have them on the screen.
I stopped playing WoW around the end of WotLK, and I remember how people complained all the time about getting instagibbed by destro locks + bloodlust, etc.
I just wish there was an MMO where party / raid fights didn't just involve heal-tank-wank, but had something more dynamic. I hate sitting behind a scaled-up, 12-foot-tall bad guy with weird collision, poking him in the ass with 1234 while dodging his farts.
I'd also like for there to be none of this arbitrary level / gear difference crap, and more emphasis on world-pvp, maybe some kind of territory-control thing. I don't want to murder robots for 120 hours before I can queue up to join instances- and nothing else.
Also, if I wanted to play PvP in a boxed tournament setting, I'd go play this instead:
To be honest, GW2 anwser a lot of your demands. Sadly the " no tank healer dps" thing somewhat don't work out that good. They have no gear griding organized pvp and huge world vs world battlegrounds tho.
I miss the original Ultima Online PvP so much.... i still cant beleive no one tryed to clone that game =( Big FU to EA for ruinning the best MMo Ever !
On February 22 2013 03:16 Irre wrote: If you didn't play UO pre- Age of Shadows..(EA). you will never understand how amazing that game was and how there will never be another like it for many reasons.
Gw2 seems the best currently..WoW is just god awful now and everything else is basically a pure rip off.
Darkfall is interesting but probably way too small a community to really have a great PVP MMO.... and probably not very clean/polished.
Any game that had potential good PVP basically got their populations killed by WoW after the first few months so there aren't very many solid options.
Maybe some of the newer games like planetside 2?
AoS was a good expansion pack tbh.
What ruined UO was the next expansion after AoS. the samurai one. well, everything else that was released after AoS was crap and pretty much killed UO :/
but yeah, UO will always remain to be the best MMO i have ever played.
On February 20 2013 19:20 Manit0u wrote: EVE and GW definitely. Depends on what you like more (apart from the setting obviously). GW has the advantage strictly from PvP perspective as it allows you to create a max level character with good gear right off the bat (but you can only use this character in PvP, can't enter PvE areas with it) and then unlock more skills and items through PvP (or simulations with AI). It also has nice in-built observer mode which lets you watch ongoing tournaments and even some past ones if I remember correctly.
If you'd like to see how good PvP looks like in GW with good commentary to boot you should visit GWGApok's channel @ YouTube.
Well that video/channel certainly brings back some memories. I did some commentary on there too for a couple of the tournaments, those are my guildmates in that commentary you linked haha. Still hang out on vent with them all the time even now so I thought they started talking on vent when I loaded the video. :p
Like people are saying, these days it's not nearly as good as it used to be back before some of the expansions came out, but it's still probably the best PvP for an MMO-style game out there. I'm not sure how active it is these days though.
What ruined UO was the next expansion after AoS. the samurai one. well, everything else that was released after AoS was crap and pretty much killed UO :/
i have to disagree here AoS killed UO for me...the new item system broke Ultima Online's long-standing tradition of being skill-based in favor of an item-based system. that was a big mistake imho
On February 22 2013 07:14 zbedlam wrote: @WoW, it has the highest personal skill ceiling out of all MMO's on the market, at least last time I checked which was pre wotlk, and its not like MMO's have been made any harder since then. Thanks to WoW almost every MMO release has more hand holding than a daycare center, which is why there aren't many PvP MMO's on the market.
WoW doesn't have the highest personal skill ceiling... Its not any different than most MMO. Especially when you consider people using macro that bind everything they need on 4 hotkeys. Having macro in any games dumb down the skill ceiling a huge amount IMO. Everyone can spam 4 abilities with macros, not everyone can hit the right key at the right time while having 30 different skills/abilities. Get rid of the macro in WoW and I would maybe agree with you in this one. Also now, WoW PvP is the worst I've seen in a while, the game was wayyyy better before.
I wonder what you mean by WoW, it's certainly not World of Warcraft if you think macros are a big deal and that WoW PvP is even close to playable with 4 hotkeys.
On February 22 2013 11:54 DPK wrote: It might be stupid for you, but its stupid for me to think that standing near a target and swinging your weapon without having to perfectly aim all the time your swing makes it much more difficult to play. I'm not speaking about AoC because I've never played it. I agree with you, every single MMORPG is easy as hell, just because you put a mechanic that need you to "aim" your target without the need to be precise is as dumb as a tab target game IMO. You just get close to your target, hit your attack and that's it. How's that much much more difficult? Especially when you consider that your aim doesn't even need to be on the target and it will still hit him. It's a different gameplay, but not much harder one, at least when it comes to melee combat, ranged is a different story. Its a bit harder than melee, but it still isn't as precise as an FPS game.
Funny thing is, you think what I've said is stupid but you can even give me a good reason as to why you think Darkfall combat was good and with a high skill ceiling. That is some real stupidity if you ask me.
On February 22 2013 10:34 Ighox wrote: I think it's pretty obvious you just read about the game on MMORPG.com or something and didn't actually play it. There were definitely periods that had large imbalances, like cycling r90 nukes and instant-rays and that wasn't really that good PvP, but generally it took a lot of skill to be at the top of the food chain.
I didn't actually played it sure, but I've watch enough videos of "good PvP" of it and did some research (because I actually wanted to play) to understand how lame the game was. If the PvP was really that good, the game would've have a lot more players and they wouldn't shut down the original to release a new dumb down version of the original. The game looked great, until I saw some stupid mechanics such as mana to stamina conversion, knockback and etc. Looking at the melee combat made me lol. People not even aiming the target and still hitting it. Same with the spells (but I guess that was with magnitude, something to make spells more easy to land *high skill ceiling?*). Laughable for me really. If you're going to add aiming in a MMO, at least do it right, not some crappy aiming that doesn't required any precision. What's the point of aiming if you can aim 2 feet away from the target and still it him? Would that be good in a FPS game? Nope. And that's my point on this. Not everyone will agree with me but its ok.
The conversions were great because it allowed you to fight outnumbered, the AoE spells were needed because the game focused on large battles and they aren't as bad as you claim. Would that be good in a FPS game? Probably, most FPS games do have AoE weapons. Arrows were affected by gravity and has no AoE, but I guess that does not require aim according to you. I think Darkfall had a larger skill ceiling than most MMORPG's because you had to aim, because you could win while being far outnumbered and you could consistently win 10-0 against another player with equal or better stats/gear as long as you were better than him. The reason Darkfall shut down didn't have anything to do with the combat system, that was the only thing the game did right, it shut down because the developers were retarded, they were slow at fixing stuff and after the first two large patches they stopped supporting the game because they started working on this new game instead. 2 years of no updates and silent developers killed the game.
Anyways, all the reasons you come with are based on videos you have watched or comments you have seen by other people like you, talking about how a game sucks without even having tried it is some real stupidity if you ask me.
Clearly Dark Age of Camelot. The true definition of an MMO. Not some instance based battleground idea that was installed into every MMO ever since.
Why does everything have to be calculated and weighed on a scale so that everything is 'balanced' and there is no room for spontaneity? Who wouldn't get a hard on from being in the middle of a battle consisting of lets say 15 to 20 people and then watch another group of 10 or so jump from over the horizon into the battlefield? Where you actually had to use siege mechanics to capture keeps in a more realistic way than to just ignore any attackers and bash yourself through gates as soon as possible.
Such a shame a lot of people who play MMOs as of lets say 2005 never got to know the true meaning of MMO. They all prefer their stupid boxed in 40vs40 15vs15 10vs10 5vs5 2vs2 crap to show who is the better player by only measuring it through planned out tactics instead of improvising and coming up plan b and perhaps even c and d to win in combat.
On February 22 2013 18:07 fartosis77 wrote: Clearly Dark Age of Camelot. The true definition of an MMO. Not some instance based battleground idea that was installed into every MMO ever since.
Why does everything have to be calculated and weighed on a scale so that everything is 'balanced' and there is no room for spontaneity? Who wouldn't get a hard on from being in the middle of a battle consisting of lets say 15 to 20 people and then watch another group of 10 or so jump from over the horizon into the battlefield? Where you actually had to use siege mechanics to capture keeps in a more realistic way than to just ignore any attackers and bash yourself through gates as soon as possible.
Such a shame a lot of people who play MMOs as of lets say 2005 never got to know the true meaning of MMO. They all prefer their stupid boxed in 40vs40 15vs15 10vs10 5vs5 2vs2 crap to show who is the better player by only measuring it through planned out tactics instead of improvising and coming up plan b and perhaps even c and d to win in combat.
Prydwen 4 lyfe Public Enemies <3
Sounds to me just like World vs World in GW2. Which sucks. So yeah.
EPT
