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The issue isn't about DLC on a disc.
It's pretty sad the direction fighting games are going at least with Capcom games. This genre was one of the few last competitive genre not to be bitten by such rotten "pay to win" business models. The sad thing is many gamers accept such travesties, which gives companies good reason to attempt or continue to do this. This is just the beginning. Mark my words that Darkstalkers 4 & Street Fighter 5 will continue and expand on this awful trend of customization and dlc power ups where players are put in a position to "pay to win" to even the standard of game options. In the end, the real game costs more than double and beyond (possibly even hundreds of dollars for some games) if you want the full intended set of game options the game is balanced around.
I'm actually scared Starcraft 3 or Warcraft 4 will have a similar business model where you buy and unlock parts of your race and power your units up with dumb rpg stat boosters because the mass gamers accepts such garbage in their competitive games. Oh there's already a game like that, it's called www.ageofempiresonline.com/en/ I played AOEO and the level of playing field isn't fair unless I grind an absurd amount of hours to unlock game options, or pay hundreds for all the in-game options and the best powerup items to equip.
Basically the lead designer of SF4 & SFxT is a terrible game designer and I want him away from future Capcom fighting game titles. His vision is similar to above when it comes to customization and monetizing the fighting game genre:
Ono on the future of fighting games: customization, and gems are only the beginning
http://shoryuken.com/2012/01/26/yoshinori-ono-outlines-his-vision-for-the-next-generation-of-fighting-games-character-customization-is-key-gem-system-is-just-the-beginning/
In a recent interview with Eurogamer, Yoshinori Ono went into what he believes will allow fighting games to survive in the future. To him, it’s all about character customization and the Street Fighter X Tekken gem system is just the beginning. He envisions a fighting game that lets players make their own gems, or perhaps even their characters. He believes user generated content is what will make fighting games prosper in years to come. You can read an excerpt from the interview below. Be sure to check out the whole thing on Eurogamer.net.
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Ono suggested future fighting games may allow fans to create their own gems, “But really the ultimate goal would be to have the players themselves create their own characters to some degree,” he revealed. “We call it user created content, or user created design.”
“So in that case it would be like, the Ryu that Yoshinori Ono made is the best, or the Ryu that other guy made sucks. If we could have that interaction between the fans: I’ve created this great character so why don’t you come try it, or that guy’s character he made isn’t so good. Why isn’t it that good? If we can get that back and forth between the community and create more dialogue and interaction within the game, that would be the best case scenario.”
The next generation of consoles, Ono admitted, puts “a lot of pressure” on Capcom to create something new in the fighting game genre. But next-gen fighting games will, ultimately, be directed by fan feedback.
An excellent game designer said it best:
"I'm not so sure that stepping away from a carefully designed experience is really "the next step" for fighting games. On a similar note, I'm not that excited about playing against your customized Starcraft race in Starcraft 3, unless it's some silly throwaway mode (like all of SFxTekken?). I'm more interested in the finely tuned game that Blizzard can offer, where they define a standard of competition and we all play that standard.
The downside of customization is that it often ends up with FEWER viable options, even though it creates the illusion of offering more."
Seriously man.. get the lead designer for MVC3 to take over Darkstalkers 4 & SF5. SFxT is a fun game, but it has been tarnished with a clusterfuck full of unnecessary game mechanics (100's of gem perks, auto combos) that are a waste of time to figure & optimize for best results, and waste of money. What's wrong with playing a damn well crafted fighting game without all the nonsense and hoops?
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That's the most overblown reaction I've seen to gems yet, grats.
Fact is they are fun to mess around with in casual play (casuals being the most important and largest demographic), and any competitive organizer can simply use the default gems or no gems at all and play a pretty bitching fighting game. It will take time for the community to figure this out, but I've seen great tournament streams of no-gem play already. It's a great fighter, and the gems will either not be used, or they will be managed in a way that stays balanced and interesting. Cheers to Capcom for trying new things.
Basically the lead designer of SF4 & SFxT is a terrible game designer
Yeah how in the hell did he get a job, he really didn't deliver.
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On March 08 2012 17:59 Hokay wrote:
There's going to be a tournament dlc patch that makes setting up your gems and other customization via usb stick. Gems will be part of tournament play.
That's in no way guaranteed. Right now tournaments are banning gems due to time restrictions, but for the longer run pretty much whatever Mr.Wizard decides for Evo 2k12 will become the tournament standard.
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haha overblown? It's the reality of the direction of Capcom fighting games. You like a game balanced around pay to win powerup perks? I'm not down with it, and clearly there are others that are; which is part of the problem as well. I don't see it going away when they get cheered for such terrible game design and business schemes.
On March 09 2012 03:03 Mannerheim wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 17:59 Hokay wrote:
There's going to be a tournament dlc patch that makes setting up your gems and other customization via usb stick. Gems will be part of tournament play. That's in no way guaranteed. Right now tournaments are banning gems due to time restrictions, but for the longer run pretty much whatever Mr.Wizard decides for Evo 2k12 will become the tournament standard.
I know they are. I go to Wednesday Night Fights, the stream you were probably watching. The tournament DLC is suppose to reduce the time. Gems will be a part of tournament play once it's out. If it stays in the long run (I can hope gems will not) is to be seen.
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On March 09 2012 03:05 Hokay wrote:
haha overblown? It's the reality of the direction of Capcom fighting games. You like a game balanced around pay to win powerup perks? I'm not down with it, and clearly there are others that are; which is part of the problem. I don't see it going away when they get cheered for such terrible game design and business schemes.
I don't see how you're missing this. The DLC gems (the over powered, pay-to-win ones) aren't going to be used in competitive play. That's all that matters.
As for paying to win online, it's for pure casual enjoyment, and honestly pretty fun. No serious player cares what people are doing with DLC gems online.
Gems will be a part of tournament play once it's out
DLC gems won't be allowed. And if your argument is that some of the default gems are broken as well, then they won't be allowed either.
Human beings can organize these things.
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And then there's that, the fact that the gems are hardly powerful enough to make a good player great.
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On March 09 2012 03:10 holdthephone wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 03:05 Hokay wrote:
haha overblown? It's the reality of the direction of Capcom fighting games. You like a game balanced around pay to win powerup perks? I'm not down with it, and clearly there are others that are; which is part of the problem. I don't see it going away when they get cheered for such terrible game design and business schemes. I don't see how you're missing this. The DLC gems (the over powered, pay-to-win ones) aren't going to be used in competitive play. That's all that matters. As for paying to win online, it's for pure casual enjoyment, and honestly pretty fun. No serious player cares what people are doing with DLC gems online.
DLC gems being banned hasn't even been set in stone yet. If that is the case it does reduce some of the problems I have with SFxT. And yes tournament organizers have the power to make the rules, but most if not all will follow Evo rules which I hope to be good.
And even if certain gems are banned, it has been stated multiple times from Capcom that the game is balanced around such gems. That just tells me even if we do ban some gems: we are playing a badly designed, and a highly chance of a non-balanced game. See everything about this game sucks when it comes to this gem and dlc crap. While the basic core gameplay is awesome, it also has been compromised and could have been better without 100's of gem perks and dlc powerups such as 5 custom combos (I know they use one meter, but they also ensure damage if you need to kill someone without dropping a 1 frame link or whatever). LIke stated above, I rather just play a well crafted fighting game without the customization perks that serve really no purpose but to please a bunch of casuals and make dlc money. Get that crap out of competitive fighting games.
Also this is lol worthy: http://www.hadoken.net/?p=4787
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On March 09 2012 03:17 imMUTAble787 wrote:
Seriously, if you think that you can "pay to win" with the way this game is set up, then you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.
Obviously you have no idea about competitive gaming. An advantage is an advantage. Imagine if Slayers MMA had a gem that boosted marine damage by +15% and IMMVP did not. In a fighting game, that can mean 1-2 hits to lose a round. Why do you support unfair games like that? Are you a competitive gamer? Ever been in a tournament where either player won by chip damage? It does make a difference. Keep rationalizing terrible things. I'm done here lol.
*cough*
http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/dlc-gems-are-stronger-than-regular-gems.156018/
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You've uncovered an issue that no one can possible know the answer to yet, but you've already taken a side! This is pessimistic and incredibly annoying, especially given how great the game feels right now.
You keep saying pay-to-win, but dismiss DLC bans. The game could be balanced around the default gems. You simply don't know.
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On March 09 2012 03:34 holdthephone wrote:
You've uncovered an issue that no one can possible know the answer to yet, but you've already taken a side! This is pessimistic and incredibly annoying, especially given how great the game feels right now.
You keep saying pay-to-win, but dismiss DLC bans. The game could be balanced around the default gems. You simply don't know.
The game is not balanced around the default gems. It's already been stated from Capcom that the game will be balanced around and with gems; and they are releasing more as DLC.
Pessimistic? These are real concerns and it's only the start. Darkstalkers 4 & Street Fighter 5 will continue this vision of Ono's. Sorry if I care about a genre, and a company whos fighting games I've only been playing for 15 years. The whole gaming industry has been strongly trending towards this for at least the past 5 years and I've avoided them because they are usually terrible like Age of Empires online. The FG genre was one of the last bastions to finally get hit by this trend. It's likely we'll see more monetization features and less closed systems in the future and it often compromises balance and gameplay.
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Because SF4 wasn't received well by the competitive community?
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On March 09 2012 03:47 holdthephone wrote:
Because SF4 wasn't received well by the competitive community?
Strawman. What does this have to do with anything? If you're trying to compare this to multiple standalone game versions being sold then just don't.
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Regardless of all this discussion, whats your favorite team right now?
Personally I'm rolling Hworang/Ryu, Hworang/Jin, and Rolento/Ryu
But I really wanna make Julia/Kaz work
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Basically the lead designer of SF4 & SFxT is a terrible game designer
The former game was a huge competitive success, and you have a strong negative view on it. It had no gems or pay-to-win mechanic, but it's still an awful step forward for competitive gaming? I ask this question to understand your character, because you sound jaded to me.
It is a change of subject, that much was obvious.
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On March 09 2012 03:59 climax wrote:
Regardless of all this discussion, whats your favorite team right now?
Personally I'm rolling Hworang/Ryu, Hworang/Jin, and Rolento/Ryu
But I really wanna make Julia/Kaz work
Law is the only character I'm decided on for sure so far. I've done all of the trials for just about all of the tekken characters so far and I've got my 2nd char narrowed down to a few different choices.
Rolento is gonna be very popular.
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To be fair, gems are only being banned currently because the USB gem transfer system doesn't yet exist. If after that the setup is still slow and a time waster I wouldn't be surprised if they get banned completely.
However it would be a bit of a shame considering there's some neat setups you can have with the gems.
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Dang guys, guess it's time to pack up this capcom fighter community and go home because Hokay told us to.
Right now, tourneys are running no gems. If gems become a problem, this will stay a standard. Customizable grooves didn't ruin CvS2, customizable characters didn't ruin Soul Calibur. There's no reason why gems will automatically ruin this game. And your example of a proper game is mvc3!? Get out of here, I'll take gems over xfactor every day of the week, and that game had dlc characters as well.
If you hate the game so much, get out this thread imo. You're free to not play it.
ANYWAY, I definitely play the game on mute when I play online. The sound bug is too odd for me. Other than that, netcode doesn't seem bad. Tekken characters have tons of overheads, trying to train myself to hit a poke button every time I see julia do that run thing.
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Obviously DLC gems will be tournament-banned, regardless of what the "tournament mode" does (I mean come on: what tournament organizer is going to allow someone to bring a clear advantage with them on a USB stick?). What tournaments do with the retail gems is still up in the air, and this discussion is just repeating itself now, so let's put in on hold until we actually know something new.
So: more first impressions of the game, less fruitless squabble.
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EPT
