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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
How is that fact that James Harden on one of the highest scoring teams not tell you that he might have something to do with it? And you just said that the Thunder were a defensive juggernaut...And the Blazers play at one of the fastest paces in the league in 2012. It isn't the Brandon Roy Blazers anymore. Granger is Small Forward in my book. | ||
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
Last year, which is where a majority of the quality stats of these two players, OKC averaged 8 more points a game than Portland, due to getting into transition and getting easy buckets, compared to Portland getting a stop and going into a half court offense. And yes Granger is considered a forward, for some reason I always place him as a SG since that was his role during FIBA 2010  . | ||
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igotmyown
United States4291 Posts
On January 20 2012 13:12 Holcan wrote: 6-5 is average for a SG, 6-6 and higher would be considered tall for their position. A lot of decent SGs are undersized like Wade 6-4, Eric Gordon 6-3, Ben Gordon 6-3. Kobe is 6-6, Derozan is 6-7, J-Rich is 6-6, Reggie Miller is 6-7, Rip is 6-7, Tyreke is 6-6. Well yea, you get the point, 6-5 is about average for a SG, and most elite SG are taller. Just for an example, would you say Wesley Matthews is a better or worse player? He gets 6 million a year, and I would say he is better offensively and defensively. Not to mention he has great nerves, has NBA pedigree, and plays in a similar market, with a similar style of team. Also their turnover rate is in favour of Curry, 5.9 passes over 3.1 turnovers, or roughly a 2:1 (52.5%) ratio, compared to Hardens 2.1 assists over 1.5 turnovers, or a 3:2 (66%) ratio. Which means Curry makes 2 passes for every turnover, and Harden makes 1.5 passes for every turnover Curry has no length James Harden 2" shorter, but 7" less wingspan | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On January 20 2012 13:31 slyboogie wrote: Assist to Turnover? nono. That's basketball's equivalent of K/BB. Turnover per possession is a better rate. Turnovers do not equal the same number of points as assists. Also, assists have varying degrees of difficulty, and again, not to bring down Curry, but I think his passing is just good. Not like supremely good. I think shooting guard height has been distorted by Kobe. Shooting guards are just smaller these days. They're more 6'4 than 6'6. Wesley Matthews is quite good. Efficient and smart but, I'd say, Harden's better. EDIT: Wait, you're getting passes to turnovers? Where did you get those numbers? SGs are smaller because people have realized that more good talents are available at shorter heights. That is why guys like Lebron and Howard are so valuable. There are hundreds of players with similar (or better) skillsets, but the fact that they are 6'8" 250 and 6'11" 275 respectively and still have the athleticism of the 6'2" guys is what makes them amazing NBA players. | ||
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
On January 20 2012 16:12 igotmyown wrote: Curry has no length James Harden 2" shorter, but 7" less wingspan To be fair, Curry is considered more a point than 2 guard. And I don't think Holcan ever compared the two directly like that. But yes, Curry isn't long. EDIT: Also, Dwight Howard can't possibly be 6''11'. Of this, I am convinced. I've seen him in person, I've seen too many photos. He's just not that tall. When Bynum played him in the finals, he was like WAY bigger. And Bynum is listed at 7' 11. This does not mean that height is the most important factor in basketball, or even important at all. I just think Dwight is shorter than he's listed. ![[image loading]](http://www.onemanfastbreak.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/usa_basketball_team.jpg) | ||
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zeehar
Korea (South)3804 Posts
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igotmyown
United States4291 Posts
Dwight Howard entered the league at 6'10" I think. I'm not sure with or without shoes, and some 7 footers don't wear shoes when measured (like Garnet). | ||
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VENDIZ
1575 Posts
And in response to that picture; Bosh is listed as 6'11, and if he was bald I'd easily give D12 the benefit in terms of who's bigger - Bosh got some kind of volume maximizing shampoo going on | ||
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Lokj
Netherlands439 Posts
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VENDIZ
1575 Posts
On January 21 2012 02:09 Lokj wrote: I'm not sure what teamliquid's stance on this is, but can't you make a seperate thread for discussing the Team USA for the 2012 Olympics? I'm looking forward to seeing them play, but i'm not fond of reading twelve pages about who the numbers 9, 10, 11 and 12 for this squad are supposed to be (besides, this will be decided by the coach and his staff only). Can't we get back to discussing NBA games? Derailing in between games is fairly normal, don't see the problem in it. There's been tons of discussion regarding the games, so I can't really see the issue :o | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16125 Posts
On January 20 2012 09:51 RowdierBob wrote: So the Bucks are officially starting to implode after running out of excuses for being inept. Apparently everyone on the roster has a "for sale" sign hanging from their neck. Not a big deal for most on here as they Bucks are an irrelevant team in the NBA as it stands today. They do have two assets though in Bogut and Jennings. The latest rumour has Bogut involved in a three team trade that would send Dwight to LA: That would be a pretty epic trade with three of the league's best big man swapping teams. I'm not sure it's a great deal for Orlando or Milwaukee, but I guess that would be inevitable when trading Dwight. Bynum has the obvious injury concerns and I'm not sure how he'd take going from LA to Milwaukee. He'd also have to be a #1 option and I don't know if he's good enough to be that guy. If the Magic are trying to fill a Dwight void with Bogut, it's a bad move. Bogut is as good a defender as Dwight, but his offense is very limited since his horrific fall in 2010. He's got a very fair contract, but Orlando will regress and be no closer to contending. LA is the big, big winner obviously. They get Dwight and they only have to give up Bynum to get it done. Filler is obviously mentioned, but I doubt it would include anything significant (certainly not Pau for example). Anyone think this trade has any merit? I don't think the Lakers front office is even interested in Dwight Howard right now honestly. Their more immediate and larger concern right now is at point guard not center. The only way the Lakers are even going to bother trading for Dwight is if it's straight up for Andrew Bynum and nothing else. The fact is, they could trade for Dwight and still have major issues on offense, without a good point guard their conventional offensive system isn't going very far in the playoffs. This team is still built around the Triangle, as such our lack of a true point guard in Mike Brown's new offense is of the most immediate and largest concern. Dwight is a nice name and looks great in the media, but he isn't what we really need. | ||
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
Will this be solved by getting Dwight? No, not at all. However pick and roll with Kobe and Dwight would be damn near impossible to stop and would be fine in Kobe's offensive flow as he can still control the ball and make the decisions, rather than now where he gives the ball to Pau or Andrew and has them post up, only getting the ball back if they double (who would double off kobe..) or if they need to get better positioning in the post. Also I wouldn't be surprised if its Pau who gets shipped off, first he was already on the block this year, second he is a mental player and requires touches to get into the offensive flow, which he isnt getting this year, third, his production has dropped tremendously and he is much older than Bynum. Pau and Dwight are also similar in how much they are getting paid this year. The only downside, is that Pau is on a back loaded contract, and a team may not want to pay for the final years of a dwindling player. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Edit: Actually they are. My bad. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16125 Posts
On January 21 2012 04:33 Holcan wrote: No, your problem on offense is the ball sticking in Kobe's hands, instead of him trusting his teammates. Coach Brown can't dare step on Kobe's toes, so this will continue. Your problem is that Kobe decides its time to go hero mode, and instead of involving Pau or Andrew, he tries to take over the game himself, and his big men get no offensive flow. Will this be solved by getting Dwight? No, not at all. However pick and roll with Kobe and Dwight would be damn near impossible to stop and would be fine in Kobe's offensive flow as he can still control the ball and make the decisions, rather than now where he gives the ball to Pau or Andrew and has them post up, only getting the ball back if they double (who would double off kobe..) or if they need to get better positioning in the post. Also I wouldn't be surprised if its Pau who gets shipped off, first he was already on the block this year, second he is a mental player and requires touches to get into the offensive flow, which he isnt getting this year, third, his production has dropped tremendously and he is much older than Bynum. Pau and Dwight are also similar in how much they are getting paid this year. The only downside, is that Pau is on a back loaded contract, and a team may not want to pay for the final years of a dwindling player. Spoken like someone who only sees Laker games that are nationally televised. Kobe's ball movement is actually some of the best on the team. The ball movement when he is on the floor is notably better than it is when he is off of it this season. Without Lamar Odom to facilitate the offense, the bench's ball movement is atrocious and passes have been getting intercepted and turnovers have been rampant since the start of the season. As much as some Kobe haters might like to think that the Lakers turnover rate this season is entirely his fault, (it's partially his fault as his wrist injury makes it a lot more difficult to handle the ball) it's mostly the fault of poor ball movement and horrible handling by our back up point guards. Kobe plays a weird hybrid role right now on offense of shooting guard + point guard. No other offense really runs like that save Lebron's Cavaliers who had the same offensive flow problems that the Lakers are having right now. Kobe's the only guy on the team that can create his own shot, Pau and Bynum can both be creative in the post but that doesn't help much when every team with half a brain just crowds all of the passing lanes into the paint. So we're left with a problem, because our best perimiter player is also the guy facilitating the offense. If we had someone that can do that for him legitimately, the entire offense would flow so much better. Fisher is too slow to create dribble penetration (when he actually does it almost ALWAYS ends up with an easy basket) and Morris has terrible decision making when it comes to passing, and Blake even when he's healthy has a combination of those two problems although to lesser degrees than either. We just need one guard to help facilitate because that'll take some of the defensive pressure off of Kobe which creates much needed interior spacing for our big guys to work with. if you watched the heat game last night it was a perfect example. The Heat's defense was so simple. Double up Kobe, crowd the paint, double up on Bynum if he actually does get the ball in the post. Bingo. The offense's facilitator is being doubled so he can't drive at all, Bynum and Pau aren't getting their touches because the ball barely ever manages to reach them because the Heat were basically daring the Lakers to shoot 3's all game with the way they were guarding the paint. Putting the ball in the hands of someone else to facilitate (NOT Morris and NOT Fisher for the reasons listed above.) allows Kobe to have space which opens up the entire floor. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Now I'm not one to say that the ball sticks in Kobe's hands TOO much but he doesn't use his teammates consistently. It's always been THE defining characteristic between Lebron/Wade vs Kobe: The other 2 even with poor teammates will consistently get something out of them whereas Kobe would rather just shoot more. It's also why as a scorer he isn't as good as them since everyone knows he will take the hard way out and the defense wins in the long run unless Kobe's teammates step up and save the day. Irony at it's finest. Kobe is also not the only guy on that team that can create his own shot. Pau Gasol has been doing it for years. Bynum, even in limited fashion can also. Most importantly they both can do it consistently - if given the chance. Which is where the true problem is. I mean look at what you're saying here: Kobe's ball movement is great so then how could anyone crowd the passing lanes to stop Bynum/Gasol's post game? What are they doing to do...double and leave Kobe open? Only a few teams have the personnel to do that. "Can't create his own shot" is one of the most overused cliches in basketball and rarely is it ever true. If a guy in the NBA is even being considered an All-Star then somehow, someway they've developed the ability to do so along the way. They also, I assume, would be smart enough to know that having Kobe Bryant on their team means the passing lanes will more often than not be open since Kobe is going to be moving without the ball. Now I do agree that having a point guard that can dribble into the lane and pull bigs with him would be wonderful. I've talked about this in the past where having at least TWO ball handlers that are play makers is a god send in the NBA and damn near a requirement if you want to win a championship. That could very well be a major problem with the Lakers, but Kobe being facilitator+scorer is just another way of saying Pau+Bynum don't get the ball enough. If you get the point guard you want and Kobe still jacks up 25 shots a game then you haven't solved the problem. ETA: If Kobe is getting doubled AND they are doubling Bynum on the same play with rotations then somebody has to be open - Gasol? I mean it's not like Gasol can't hit an 18 footer while Bynum sits in the paint. God forbid the Lakers aren't smart enough to put Bynum on the left, Kobe on the right, and Gasol in the high post and avoid double teams. Then again people criticize Miami for doing this same thing (Wade and Lebron on different sides of the floor) without realizing they do this just so you can't ever double team anyone. | ||
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
On January 21 2012 05:00 Vindicare605 wrote: Spoken like someone who only sees Laker games that are nationally televised. Kobe's ball movement is actually some of the best on the team. The ball movement when he is on the floor is notably better than it is when he is off of it this season. Without Lamar Odom to facilitate the offense, the bench's ball movement is atrocious and passes have been getting intercepted and turnovers have been rampant since the start of the season. As much as some Kobe haters might like to think that the Lakers turnover rate this season is entirely his fault, (it's partially his fault as his wrist injury makes it a lot more difficult to handle the ball) it's mostly the fault of poor ball movement and horrible handling by our back up point guards. Kobe plays a weird hybrid role right now on offense of shooting guard + point guard. No other offense really runs like that save Lebron's Cavaliers who had the same offensive flow problems that the Lakers are having right now. Kobe's the only guy on the team that can create his own shot, Pau and Bynum can both be creative in the post but that doesn't help much when every team with half a brain just crowds all of the passing lanes into the paint. So we're left with a problem, because our best perimiter player is also the guy facilitating the offense. If we had someone that can do that for him legitimately, the entire offense would flow so much better. Fisher is too slow to create dribble penetration (when he actually does it almost ALWAYS ends up with an easy basket) and Morris has terrible decision making when it comes to passing, and Blake even when he's healthy has a combination of those two problems although to lesser degrees than either. We just need one guard to help facilitate because that'll take some of the defensive pressure off of Kobe which creates much needed interior spacing for our big guys to work with. if you watched the heat game last night it was a perfect example. The Heat's defense was so simple. Double up Kobe, crowd the paint, double up on Bynum if he actually does get the ball in the post. Bingo. The offense's facilitator is being doubled so he can't drive at all, Bynum and Pau aren't getting their touches because the ball barely ever manages to reach them because the Heat were basically daring the Lakers to shoot 3's all game with the way they were guarding the paint. Putting the ball in the hands of someone else to facilitate (NOT Morris and NOT Fisher for the reasons listed above.) allows Kobe to have space which opens up the entire floor. Actually I watched every Lakers game up until Jan 9th, and I've watched as many as I could afterwards. Thanks for the Ad Hominem though, it really makes me appreciate your argument more when you belittle mine. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16125 Posts
On January 21 2012 05:43 Ace wrote: Offense running through a star wing player who is the top scoring option and lead distributor is nothing new. Hell, the early and mid 2000s were the Golden Age for that kind of player with Kobe, Mcgrady and Iverson being the most famed of that class of player. Then you also had recent successes such as Wade, Lebron and Brandon Roy doing it. Not weird at all. It's also not much of a problem until said player picks a bad time to be a scorer or a distributor. Now I'm not one to say that the ball sticks in Kobe's hands TOO much but he doesn't use his teammates consistently. It's always been THE defining characteristic between Lebron/Wade vs Kobe: The other 2 even with poor teammates will consistently get something out of them whereas Kobe would rather just shoot more. It's also why as a scorer he isn't as good as them since everyone knows he will take the hard way out and the defense wins in the long run unless Kobe's teammates step up and save the day. Irony at it's finest. Kobe is also not the only guy on that team that can create his own shot. Pau Gasol has been doing it for years. Bynum, even in limited fashion can also. Most importantly they both can do it consistently - if given the chance. Which is where the true problem is. I mean look at what you're saying here: Kobe's ball movement is great so then how could anyone crowd the passing lanes to stop Bynum/Gasol's post game? What are they doing to do...double and leave Kobe open? Only a few teams have the personnel to do that. "Can't create his own shot" is one of the most overused cliches in basketball and rarely is it ever true. If a guy in the NBA is even being considered an All-Star then somehow, someway they've developed the ability to do so along the way. They also, I assume, would be smart enough to know that having Kobe Bryant on their team means the passing lanes will more often than not be open since Kobe is going to be moving without the ball. Now I do agree that having a point guard that can dribble into the lane and pull bigs with him would be wonderful. I've talked about this in the past where having at least TWO ball handlers that are play makers is a god send in the NBA and damn near a requirement if you want to win a championship. That could very well be a major problem with the Lakers, but Kobe being facilitator+scorer is just another way of saying Pau+Bynum don't get the ball enough. If you get the point guard you want and Kobe still jacks up 25 shots a game then you haven't solved the problem. ETA: If Kobe is getting doubled AND they are doubling Bynum on the same play with rotations then somebody has to be open - Gasol? I mean it's not like Gasol can't hit an 18 footer while Bynum sits in the paint. God forbid the Lakers aren't smart enough to put Bynum on the left, Kobe on the right, and Gasol in the high post and avoid double teams. Then again people criticize Miami for doing this same thing (Wade and Lebron on different sides of the floor) without realizing they do this just so you can't ever double team anyone. Did you watch the game yesterday? Someone WAS always open, but no one else could ever consistently hit a shot. It wasn't until the 4th quarter that people started making anything and the lead was cut down, but throughout the entire game no one was making anything even if they were wide open. Gasol made a nice three in the second and Derek made a couple himself, and so did Artest but no one that was left open was ever making enough shots to keep up with Miami's offense. They were shooting like 30% or something all through the first half and up until the 4th. Kobe took like 7 shots in the first half altogether and with that made 1 but got to the line twice on top of that. That's unselfish efficiency, but it didn't matter that he was moving the ball out of the double teams because no one else was ever making anything. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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