EPTNBA Regular Season 2011-2012 - Page 88
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
On January 20 2012 11:57 Ace wrote: James Harden gets comparisons to Manu but he isn't worth Manu money. He's good, but he isn't that good. For one defensively he needs to improve, and 2 unlike Manu we've never seen him be the focus of the defense while being played by starters. Don't give him too much credit just yet. Not yet, no. But he has one huge advantage over Manu: He's 22 years old and 19 when he came into the league. His game has developed along really nice lines from his time at Artesia High---->Arizona----->OKC. I think we all agree that he'll get more than $8 million right? Don't delude yourselves, even if you think he isn't worth it, he'll probably land 10 million a year. Or something like 9mil/10mil/12mil/14mil. I guess I think he's better than Holcan does. But I'm still pretty sure that he'll be paid more than you think. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
if he goes somewhere else he might get a ben gordon contract, but if he stays, a loaded contract averaging 8 is what he is worth. | ||
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
EDIT: And way better than Ben Gordon | ||
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
being better than a bunch of other players that would start on the bench for any contender is hardly a reason to give up 10 million. once again, all those players you listed didn't cash in at 10 their first contract, jamal just got 10 lasr year, manu 2 years ago, odom is to tall for this conversation. its not a matter if he could start, its a matter if he can contribute at the same level if he started, which I would currently lean towards no, he would not contribute at the same level he does against the bench | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
James Harden isn't better than Steph Curry. Not even close. He MIGHT have a case against Evans but I'm not sure on that. | ||
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
On January 20 2012 12:38 Ace wrote: ??? James Harden isn't better than Steph Curry. Not even close. He MIGHT have a case against Evans but I'm not sure on that. agreed about curry for sure, even derozan has a high cap if he can develop a bit better decision.making and solidify a jumper | ||
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
EDIT: If you look at Harden's history, he does exactly what you want a budding star to do: he improves in almost every category every season. And this year, he's made a large leap and is producing like a star. I don't hate Curry, so I'm not trying to bash him, Harden is very good. And he can start easily. | ||
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
curry is also a undersized pg playing for a run and gun team, harden is an average sized sg, playing for a defensive juggernaut, with 3 legitimate defenders in the paint, curry has biedrins and david lee. injuries are the only true edge harden has. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
It's not even close. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On January 20 2012 12:55 Ace wrote: Harden is just as bad defensively as Curry is. He also plays with the second unit, and doesn't even have the same role on his team that Curry does. Most importantly he plays with Durant and Westbrook, 2 guys that are better than anyone on Curry's team, but also has a good enough team defensively to mask any of his short comings. It's not even close. Curry is the perfect example of a player who can be effective from anywhere on the floor, with or without the ball. He does need to work on his "Ray Allen" game, but that is only if he is ever on a good team, the Warriors are a total waste of his possibilities. | ||
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
It's fine, I think we can disagree, it's okay. I don't really understand how other players' defense affects this conversation though. EDIT: Ace, his defense is not as bad as Curry, that's ridiculous. Curry is awful | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
EDIT: Ace, his defense is not as bad as Curry, that's ridiculous. Curry is awful Harden isn't awful? Maybe things have changed but if so I'd like to see some numbers. I could just be failing an eye test. | ||
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
Not enough data for Defense stats right now. I don't think that team is much better with Curry, btw. Maybe I'm being stubborn and Curry's hurt, so it isn't fair to say he's failing. We shall see. | ||
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
Well yea, you get the point, 6-5 is about average for a SG, and most elite SG are taller. Just for an example, would you say Wesley Matthews is a better or worse player? He gets 6 million a year, and I would say he is better offensively and defensively. Not to mention he has great nerves, has NBA pedigree, and plays in a similar market, with a similar style of team. Also their turnover rate is in favour of Curry, 5.9 passes over 3.1 turnovers, or roughly a 2:1 (52.5%) ratio, compared to Hardens 2.1 assists over 1.5 turnovers, or a 3:2 (66%) ratio. Which means Curry makes 2 passes for every turnover, and Harden makes 1.5 passes for every turnover | ||
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
I think shooting guard height has been distorted by Kobe. Shooting guards are just smaller these days. They're more 6'4 than 6'6. Wesley Matthews is quite good. Efficient and smart but, I'd say, Harden's better. EDIT: Wait, you're getting passes to turnovers? Where did you get those numbers? | ||
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
So, like I said, Matthews is better offensively, with better 3%, better FG%, better FT%, as well as being better defensively as he puts up similar numbers in steals, and blocks, but does not foul as often as Harden does. The difference is that Matthews does all this against starters, and Harden puts up all his numbers against bench players. I seriously think you are over inflating the worth of Harden. 3rd offensive option sure, but he is getting subbed for Sefalosha on defensive possessions, where Matthews is playing both sides down the stretch due to his ability to guard PG, SG, and SF. I said passes, but i meant assists, just forgot to fix it up all stats taken from Basketball-reference.com http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/matthwe02.html http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01.html Also Shooting guards don't get drafted unless they are 6-5+, unless they are an elite talent. I can't think of to many that are 6-4. Manu is 6-6, Thabo is 6-5, Granger is 6-8, Ray Allen is 6-5, Vince Carter is 6-6, Brandon Roy is 6-6, Wesley Matthews is 6-5, JR Smith is 6-6, the list goes on... oh, i found one, Randy Foye is 6-4 | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
On January 20 2012 13:46 Ace wrote: Well to be fair Harden isn't ONLY playing against bench units, but yes that's where he usually plays. True, and Matthews doesn't strictly play against starters, but you can look at this way, Matthews put up similar numbers in a defensive first, half court offense. Harden put up those numbers playing on one of the highest scoring teams in the league. | ||
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