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On February 16 2012 03:33 Ace wrote:Depends on the team. If I really, really needed a scorer that badly or only had 1 good offensive option on my team then I might take Melo. If not then Andre Iguodala might get the nod over Melo because of his play making. Gallinari and Rudy Gay also might be in the discussion along with Deng. Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 03:30 rei wrote:
what scoring efficiency equate to? high shooting %? FG%, or even eFG%. Some people use True Shooting % but that takes into account Free Throws and what I'm talking about right now is just making shots from the field.
Those stats are a bit harsh to Melo (or Rose/Westbrook) because one of his elite skills is getting to the foul line.
On February 16 2012 04:01 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 03:44 city42 wrote:On February 14 2012 16:59 Ace wrote:On February 14 2012 15:14 cLutZ wrote:
I'm fairly certain no one has ever documented "clutch" when that is defined as getting better in high pressure situations, however there have been some documented "chokers". Clutch is basically not choking + winning (probably because you are already pretty freaking good i.e. Jordan, Bird, etc), that is it. Funny thing: Bird has "choked" just as badly as Lebron has, in the Finals. No one talks about it though because he eventually won. Being clutch really depends on how people perceive you when it comes to the casual fan. Can you elaborate on this? Bird won his first 2 trips to the finals. He did blow the '85 finals by messing up his shooting hand in a bar fight, but that's not really the same thing as what Bron pulled vs. Boston in 2010 and Dallas in 2011. I agree with the last sentence though. It always amuses me when T-Mac gets labeled as an unclutch playoff choker, because I saw him win playoff games by himself vs. Milwaukee and Detroit in person. His best 2 teammates were Mike Miller and Darrell Armstrong but somehow the losses were all his fault. I can't remember the year, and I'm a bit too busy to go searching for the video at the moment but I think it was either 82 or 87. He put on a really bad performance and while it wasn't Lebron James level, he did play like shit. The thing is no one remembers it because Bird was on a stacked team and did win multiple championships. If Lebron wins chips in this era of basketball no one is going to care or even talk about his downfalls 20 years from now. Hell, people don't even remember that Kobe has had some of the worst playoffs runs for a superstar ever. This is the most difficult era to win an NBA championship in so even getting to the Finals twice is a major, major accomplishment. McGrady is an interesting player. The thing about T-Mac was that he toed a very fine line between dominance and "just really good". I don't blame him for his playoff losses because like you said - some of the teams he dragged to the playoffs were ridiculous. His bad shooting habits caught up with him at times, but he didn't have a dominant team around him all the time to withstand the mistakes. Interestingly enough in the mid 2000s if you called McGrady better than Kobe not many people would argue. Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 03:49 rei wrote:
maybe asshole is little too strong of a word, but i felt that ppl like Rose has the skills to not charge into ppl and initiate contact in order to get a foul call. It is too cheap for someone as skilled as he is, not to mention he's risking injury every time. I hardly ever see Kobe does that kind of bullshit. Rose doesn't really charge into people though. He's widely known for his absurd body control and early on in his career actively avoided contact. Also truth be told - a lot of superstars get fouled a whole lot more than you realize. If the refs indeed called every foul you would be even more upset  Kobe doesn't seem to do it because he isn't attacking the basket much because he's in his 16th season. Now, if you watch Kobe all the way up to 2007 you'll see it.
I never liked McGrady's game, or his craziness. But injury was his biggest problem IMO.
Rose actually used to avoid contact so much that people criticized him for it. Part of his MVP season was getting to the FT line more.
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Well, the major problem for Melo is that even with his good FT shooting he doesn't rank in the elite levels of TS%. Same for Westbrook and Rose. Really, what it comes down to for top tier Superstars (talking All-Time levels) what seperates the Lebron's, Wade's and currently Durant's from Melo/Rose/Westbrook is FG%. You can even be a bad Free Throw shooter, but if you are a high volume + high efficiency scorer from the field your chances of winning a championship increase so much.
If you look at most people's All Time lists, aside from Bill Russel and the other guys who played in the worst era of basketball, you'll notice everyone in the top ranges have absurdly high FG%. Yea some of them are Centers, but then you get down to the perimeter players like Jordan, Bird and Magic and all of them have seasons where 48% (which is ELITE) is on of their low end. While it was easier to score back then in some respects, the ability to limit possessions still has the same effect: A team that scores highly on a low amount of possessions is going to blow most teams out off the court.
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How can you compare Deng, Gay and Gallo to Melo. None of them have averaged over 20 a game, with their average being somewhere around 16, where Melo is putting up on average 24.8 a game. Hell, I have a hard time looking at these numbers and seeing Deng, Gay or Gallo as more efficient than Melo (over careers).
Lets just eliminate Gallo, as his career FG% is .425, and Melo is .457.
When looking at Deng, we see that Deng from the field is a better shooter, at .469 for his career, however where Melo takes his advantage is his ability to get to the line, and finish with strength, the latter of which can only be judged by an eye test, or advanced algorithms that cannot possibly take every aspect into consideration (maybe deng gets fouled harder, or w/e other variable). Melo currently goes to the line on average almost twice the amount of Deng does. the only truly notable place that Deng has an advantage is assist to turnover, however this is largely due to Melo's large assist/turnover ratio at the start of his career, if you compare the last three years Deng still has an advantage, but it is rather negligible.
The last player you mention that I can't consider is Gay, he is currently sitting at .456, averaging roughly 6 less PPG. Gay also has a higher assist to turnover ratio, a worse ft%, gets to the line half as much as Melo. He just doesn't compare statistically to Melo, at least not over their careers.
I can see an argument for Deng, however I'd trade 1.2 FG% for 8 points per game, and putting the opposing team in foul trouble on almost every team.O
f course when it comes to defense, Deng, Iggy and Gay are all better than Melo.
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Well, thats why I said depending on my other scoring options. If I already have 1 super efficient dominant scorer, or even 2 really good scorers then some other guys get in the convo because I won't need Melo to take 20 shots a game which reduces his impact. Notice I'm not saying I'm choosing them over him - just that they get in the conversation because offensively, some of those guys are going to be playmakers and don't need a high volume of shots.
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I just pointed out that their playmaking ability is on par, or worse than melos. the only sf that is better in this aspect is iggy, and I never argued about him. gay is worse, gallo can be solved by playing passing lanes and letting him shoot, and deng and melo are on par with each other, except melo is a primary option and deng is a secondary
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Funny you should bring up Deng's playmaking ability the day after he more or less ran the Bulls to a W vs the Kings ;D
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United States22883 Posts
On February 16 2012 04:32 Ace wrote:
Well, thats why I said depending on my other scoring options. If I already have 1 super efficient dominant scorer, or even 2 really good scorers then some other guys get in the convo because I won't need Melo to take 20 shots a game which reduces his impact. Notice I'm not saying I'm choosing them over him - just that they get in the conversation because offensively, some of those guys are going to be playmakers and don't need a high volume of shots.
Wait, then why are you against a hypothetical Melo trade? D: Do you think the team has legit ECF aspirations with him there?
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I was against the Melo trade because of what they were giving up to get him. All of the players they gave up weren't worth it. They were better off just letting Melo show up in Free Agency, or at the very least letting Denver know they don't have much leverage and keep one of Felton/Gallinari/Chandler.
If by team you meant Amar'e/Melo/Chandler/Gallinari/Felton/Fields? Very possible to go to the ECF with that team. Any combination of Gallo/Fields/Chandler where 2 of those guys are coming off the bench was going to be a bit of a problem for Maimi or Chicago. Of course Miami's starting line up and Wade or Lebron solo acts would have eventually crushed the Knicks anyway,
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I am against the trade because there isn't a team out there with the assests that the nyk need. if they trade melo, there will be a gap at sf, and the sf position is so tough in the east with lbj, deng, pierce, iggy, granger. who do they trade for? demarcus cousins and john salmons? action jackson and drew gooden? there isnt a trade that would make them better, or a more capable post season threat. a lineup of lin, fields, melo, amare, chandler is pretty damn good, imo, and a little bit of bench depth in exchange for a gap at sf would be a silly move if they actually hope to compete with the heat and bulls, or even the celtics, pacers and philly. it would help them in matching up against atlanta though.
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On February 16 2012 07:15 Holcan wrote:
action jackson and drew gooden?
I would be supremely happy if NY did that 
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of course you would like that, action jackson and drew gooden have too many finals appearances for the bucks fans to tolerate them :p
I'm actually surprised you don't like jackson, his story is much like lins, excepy after being cut he didn't go.to the d league, he went to australia and played there and in south america before finally getting his rookie season 3 years after being drafted
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The NYK need a ton of injury luck (as in injuries to other teams) to even have a hint of a whiff of a hope of seeing the ECFs.
So, maybe a trade is in order, or they could stop being the drunken sailor team for a few years.
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United States15275 Posts
It's amazing how slowly the Knicks' offense moves without Lin.
On February 16 2012 10:04 cLutZ wrote:
The NYK need a ton of injury luck (as in injuries to other teams) to even have a hint of a whiff of a hope of seeing the ECFs.
So, maybe a trade is in order, or they could stop being the drunken sailor team for a few years.
Yeah...let's not get too starry-eyed.
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Wow, the Pacers without George Hill is actually quite bad.. or at least they play that way
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holy crap the knicks offense is sooooooo bad without a pg on the floor
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On February 16 2012 10:10 jtbem wrote:
holy crap the knicks offense is sooooooo bad without a pg on the floor
pretty much the biggest problem with that team was no quality pg
now they have lin who is doing a good job
wonder how well they will do now
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didnt know fields could jump so high..
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United States15275 Posts
9 assists in the first half. Nice.
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6 turnovers already. Maybe he'll always be a high turnover guy, like his college stats suggest.
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EPT
